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After 'astonishingly' poor quarter, Mac sales predicted to rebound - Page 2

post #41 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs View Post

Obviously, not everybody has a great display, but most current desktop users I know have a very good (and *big*, usually bigger than 21 inch) display. Being forced to buy an "all in one" looks nonsense when you already have the display you need. This wasn't true in the past, because we were in the transition from CRTs or from small LCDs, but that's not the market reality anymore.

People who don't want an "all in one" don't want a Mini, because the Mini is less powerful in GPU. And don't want a Xeon either.

If Apple released a powerful i7 with a 2GB GPU, with 512 GB SSD and without display, they could offer it in the $1900 price range. And I'm confident this would sell in larger amounts than the whole desktop line in this moment, because that's exactly the kind of performance most desktop users expect in this moment. And Apple could meet such price within its usual pricing, without any new pricing policy

Let me get this straight: most Mac consumers are power users that already have displays and are willing to pay $1900 for a Mac Pro (whatever) instead of $1400 for an all-in-one.
.
post #42 of 115
Apple really needs to get the new Mac Pro out! There is a lot of pent up demand waiting for it including me! My little Mac mini is very nice but I need more power and a dedicated GPU when running Blender 3D!
post #43 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

One hypothesis I've put forward is that these iMacs were necessary for them not to get behind. But how if they are behind on iMac sales? That's looking at just the iMac. Apple has a long history o incorporating skills perfected in one area with other areas. This reduces costs and increases margins while still being competitively priced. What if these iMacs — the stir-friction welding, large laminated display, or something else entirely — are trials for a bigger, more colossal project that would be set back a year if Apple had waited a year to release this new iMac design?

I'm not saying that is the case, just that there isn't enough information to say what circumstances that led to why they did what they did, just as looking at only the original iPhone's 4th quarter would show that Apple dropped the ball… which they clearly didn't.

 

Very interesting hypothesis. The other possibility (or a complementary scenario) is that they stopped ordering parts for the old iMac prematurely and, once having failed to build enough new ones for the launch, also didn't have the parts inventory or capacity to build the old ones instead. One thing seems likely - they had an inking (if not confirmation) of this problem when the new iMac was announced. But they went ahead because the train had already left the station.

 

FWS (friction-stir welding and not stir-friction welding, notwithstanding what this article says) is not used in many high volume applications. I wonder if the root of the problem is as simple as equipment supply.

 

Regardless, your core premise is likely correct - FSW will be used in other Apple products.

 

p.s. According to this (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/20/imac_welding_british_company/), Apple only licensed the FSW technology from its inventor (TWI) in early 2012. If so, that's a short time to ramp up to high volume production.


Edited by ankleskater - 3/1/13 at 12:06pm
post #44 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


Let me get this straight: most Mac consumers are power users that already have displays and are willing to pay $1900 for a Mac Pro (whatever) instead of $1400 for an all-in-one.
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Not most. But there are many. Unfortunately, the switch to Windows is growing in numbers, including animation studios.

post #45 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

That misses a key point. It's not a demand issue. If sales had increased and they still couldn't supply, then "demand was too great" would make sense. But when sales plummeted, it's certainly a supply issue.

Now, the argument makes sense with the iPhone - because they've continued to sell more of each new model. It doesn't make sense wrt the iMac.

He wrote: "...just about every Apple product introduction over the past few years has experienced problems with lack of supply." which led to his comment about Cook's aptitude. In no way did his comment reflect only the most recent iMac, hence my reply.

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

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post #46 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post


Not most. But there are many. Unfortunately, the switch to Windows is growing in numbers, including animation studios.

I have no doubts there are a few but eca said it "would sell in larger amounts than the whole desktop line in this moment."

Who is switching?
post #47 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

 

Oh, give me a break. People on this forum have been bitching for a damn long time about wanting a redesigned iMac. Stop pretending noone wanted or was expecting it, and don't pretend that the people on this forum would have been satisfied with a spec bump. 

At least bitching about "the new iMac looks the same" is easier to stand than "I can't f@#$king buy an iMac". Do you think people hate the old design enough to hold back purchasing 700,000 units worth a $1B?

post #48 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

so you're upset the price is ONLY $70 above your avg purchase price? it's not YOUR cash. You invested prior to any dividends. So at the time of the investment, you weren't promised any cash.

 

 

Let me tell you a bit of investment 101: when I buy a share, I'm entitled to part of the company, be it 1%, or 0.0001%. I need no promise. Whatever assets the company have, minus its liabilities, are mine. That's the promise of the stock. With the cash pile sitting at $140B, I am buying a security that is backed by $145 per share of cash.
 
Since you don't have any skin in this game, I will take you much less seriously on the topic. It's easy to see how you don't feel the same frustration for Apple shareholder, especially long term guys like me.
post #49 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Other than the 17 people globally who play high performance games on their Mac, who cares? The iMac is an incredibly powerful machine that more than meets the needs of 99% of users. If someone needs the fastest video card, they're probably in the group that will want to upgrade the video card regularly - so they're not looking at the iMac, anyway.
Do you really mean what you said? Do you really mean there're 17 users globally who use the Mac for movie encoding, for composing music, for ray tracing, for CAD, and for gaming?

If that's the case, and there're only 17 musicians, CAD users, video editors, and gamers, there's no market for the MacBook Pro. Even the MacBook Air seems to be out of the market if that was reality.

However, that's not reality. Reality is that there're thousands of musicians and DJs using computers, thousands of CAD users who also raytrace, thousands of people encoding hours and hours of video, and of course thousands of thousands of people who want to play last generation games.

And no, they don't want a Xeon, unless they need at least a dual-chip configuration.

Apple has no current offering for these thousands and thousands and thousands of users (unless they accept being forced to an "all in one" -which btw isn't designed for the tasks they do, or otherwise getting a Xeon, when they don't really want a Xeon)
post #50 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoffdino View Post


Let me tell you a bit of investment 101: when I buy a share, I'm entitled to part of the company, be it 1%, or 0.0001%. I need no promise. Whatever assets the company have, minus its liabilities, are mine. That's the promise of the stock. With the cash pile sitting at $140B, I am buying a security that is backed by $145 per share of cash.
 
Since you don't have any skin in this game, I will take you much less seriously on the topic. It's easy to see how you don't feel the same frustration for Apple shareholder, especially long term guys like me.

I have 200 shares since 2005. So when I visited Cupertino a couple years ago I should have asked for a free computer or office supplies since I do own the assets as well.
post #51 of 115
And, btw, all this "low Mac sales" worries wouldn't exist if Apple took the late 2012 Mac Mini, made it a bit taller so that a good NVIDIA GPU fits in there, and add a 512 GB SSD option for it. Sell that for $1900 and you have a PC killer right there. Low sales gone instantly. Yes, you would cannibalize the iMac by doing that, as well as the single-chip Mac Pros, but... Why worry on cannibalization on the Mac line if you accept it on the iOS line?

A new Mac desktop line like this "taller Mini" would be the only way of saving the Mac desktop, because this is what desktop users want. They don't find it from Apple, so they fly away to the PC. As simple as this.
post #52 of 115
Originally Posted by ecs View Post
…thousands of musicians and DJs using computers, thousands of CAD users who also ray trace, thousands of people encoding hours and hours of video, and of course thousands of thousands of people who want to play last generation games.

…an "all in one" -which btw isn't designed for the tasks they do…

 

Challenge.

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post #53 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoffdino View Post

 

 

Let me tell you a bit of investment 101: when I buy a share, I'm entitled to part of the company, be it 1%, or 0.0001%. I need no promise. Whatever assets the company have, minus its liabilities, are mine. That's the promise of the stock. With the cash pile sitting at $140B, I am buying a security that is backed by $145 per share of cash.
 
Since you don't have any skin in this game, I will take you much less seriously on the topic. It's easy to see how you don't feel the same frustration for Apple shareholder, especially long term guys like me.


You are generalizing, bastardizing and miscontruing "investment 101", or perhaps you are making ignorant assumptions. What you, as a common shareholder, are entitled to can range from something to nothing. It is NOT true that anything of the company is yours. If you disagree, go into Apple and claim something, and see if they help you box it and kick u out on your ass as you deserve.

 

If and when a company is liquidated, there is a possibility that you might be entitled to something. But until then, you own nothing but the shares. Even at time of liquidation, what a common shareholder (and you sound pretty common) gets depends on the by-laws of a company (that's the promise you referred but you clearly have not studied this promise). Likely, creditors and preferred shareholders get their fingers in the pie first.

 

Now, I am going to guess you're going to argue that Apple is different because there are not no creditors and no preferred shares. But you were referring to Investment 101, which you need a refresher on. Furthermore, there are indeed creditors and preferred shares.

 

Since you appear to not know what you are saying, "I will take you much less seriously on the topic."


Edited by ankleskater - 3/1/13 at 2:16pm
post #54 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs View Post

Sell that for $1900 and you have a PC killer right there. Low sales gone instantly.

Do you know what the average PC sells for? It's well under half that $1900 price. Even among Macs $1900 is about $700 above the average sale price. For these reasons alone I don't see how this would kill all non-Mac PC sales.

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

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post #55 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Challenge.


Ohhhh, I like that. Succinct!

post #56 of 115
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post
Ohhhh, I like that. Succinct!

 

I mean, yeah, it can come back to bite you when you're questioning an argument like that, but in this case it should be easier to find testimonies of his claim than the opposite.

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post #57 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by xZu View Post

It may appear that way, but my first Mac was a Mac Plus in 1988 (used), still my favorite was my IIci...yes i am old.  I have owned 52 macs since for my business, personal use and family (5 newtons, in fact). Your point about powerful graphics chips... a 680m is still a mobile chip, some people need more... I am looking to replace 7 iMacs that had their hard drives fail from heat every 18 months, repeatedly, for my business (I have a stack of hard drives to prove it). I am tired of running smc fan control at maximum just to use them.  I have two xserves.. I have to consider what to replace them with. All I am saying is that there is a portion of Mac users that do require a MacPro, maybe its only 5%, but it would be great if we could get updates, or better yet something that isnt a vertical laptop. They are beautiful machines, I will probably buy a new 27" for home, I have the last generation 27"... I want to replace my early 2009 Mac Pro I use with a 30" apple display and I don't want an iMac. As Steve Jobs said, some people are still going to need trucks... 

 

I'm curious, what the hell is it you do that requires a Mac Pro, and not a "vertical laptop" as you call the iMac? The iMac is an very powerful machine, so tell me, what is that you do that an iMac or any other Mac can't handle?

post #58 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoffdino View Post

 

 

Let me tell you a bit of investment 101: when I buy a share, I'm entitled to part of the company, be it 1%, or 0.0001%. I need no promise. Whatever assets the company have, minus its liabilities, are mine. That's the promise of the stock. With the cash pile sitting at $140B, I am buying a security that is backed by $145 per share of cash.
 
Since you don't have any skin in this game, I will take you much less seriously on the topic. It's easy to see how you don't feel the same frustration for Apple shareholder, especially long term guys like me.

 

I'm a shareholder, and I bought a ton of stock @ $650. I lost big. You're not entitled to a fucking thing. It's an investment, and investments are always a gamble. I'm rational enough to understand that the hammering of the stock is not rational, nor does it seem connected in any way to Apple's performance, but to other variables and unreasonable market expectations. The company is performing extremely well, apart from the stock- they just had a record quarter and record sales. There's no "quick fix" to raise the stock, and no sane person would demand one. I expect and have faith that Apple is continuing to do what it has been doing which has made it so successful, and it has products in the pipeline, as well as a long term vision. It won't benefit anyone for Apple to make knee-jerk decisions on their products and direction based on the stock price- that's ridiculous. All that will do is make them lose their focus, and have negative repercussions down the line. Any new product they come out with needs to be extremely well thought out and considered, and I have faith in Apple's team, and that the stock price now is a bump in the road. Alot can change very quickly. If they're going to attack a new market, they need to nail the product the first time- you can't make a 2nd 1st impression. This impatience by people that Apple should "do something" because of stock price is so idiotic, childish, and short-sighted. Apple still has the most solid business model in the entire industry, and the best and most wholistic roadmap. There's no other company on the planet that can do the combination of hardware, software, digital downloads, app ecosystem, the cloud, mobile, desktop, as they can. Not a single one. They're the only company that has a disciplined "vision", unlike everyone else thats running around with their heads cut off releasing something new and shiny every while. You have absolutely nothing of value to contribute to Apple, in terms of decisions they should make, so stop whining like a baby and pretending you're entitled to something. You won't be served by Apple making some short term decision to please shareholders- Apple needs to continue making decisions for the long term, and I doubt thats something you know anything about. If you have so little faith in the company going forward, just sell all your stock now, you're still coming out ahead at your average buying price. Look, as an example, of the massive inroads Apple is making in enterprise and education- business and educational insitutions are adopting (and in many cases mandating) iOS devices like there's no tomorrow. Android is getting zero traction in these areas. You don't see how this is incredibly beneficial? As for me, I'm not touching my shares. 


Edited by Slurpy - 3/1/13 at 2:49pm
post #59 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

 

I'm curious, what the hell is it you do that requires a Mac Pro, and not a "vertical laptop" as you call the iMac? The iMac is an very powerful machine, so tell me, what is that you do that an iMac or any other Mac can't handle?

Really? CAD, 3d rendering, video encoding, better games, anything that needs more then a 680m graphics and not everyone needs a Xeon processor. Its a marketing problem to.. "Macs are too expensive and aren't very powerful," I know thats not true.. but a Mac Pro is a workstation, an iMac has laptop graphics that are not upgradable, make something in between, that is all I am saying. And there is nothing wrong with a "vertical laptop".

GTX 680 / GTX 680M
1536 cores / 1344 cores
clock rate 1058 / clock rate 720
Texture fill rate 128.8 / Texture fill rate 80.6
Bandwidth 192 / Bandwidth 115

post #60 of 115
Originally Posted by xZu View Post
CAD, 3d rendering, video encoding, better games, anything that needs more then a 680m graphics

 

None of these things requires more than a 680M. Video encoding is CPU-dependent. 


…and not everyone needs a Xeon processor.


Not everyone is the intended market for a Mac Pro. It's a workstation, not a desktop proper.

 

…make something in between…

 

That's just the thing; Apple doesn't see a market for something in between. There hasn't been a large enough drive from Apple's users for such a market. And a piecemeal tower computer is exactly the opposite of what Apple wants to make. They're not an end-all-be-all-do-all company, and they're generally fine with the 80% of the market's needs they do cover. 

 

Now, the Mac Pro update this year? Might change that a little. But you can bet it won't take sales from the iMac.

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post #61 of 115

Bang on the nail Slurpy !

Well said. +1

post #62 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

 

Very interesting hypothesis. The other possibility (or a complementary scenario) is that they stopped ordering parts for the old iMac prematurely and, once having failed to build enough new ones for the launch, also didn't have the parts inventory or capacity to build the old ones instead. One thing seems likely - they had an inking (if not confirmation) of this problem when the new iMac was announced. But they went ahead because the train had already left the station.

 

FWS (friction-stir welding and not stir-friction welding, notwithstanding what this article says) is not used in many high volume applications. I wonder if the root of the problem is as simple as equipment supply.

 

Regardless, your core premise is likely correct - FSW will be used in other Apple products.

 

p.s. According to this (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/20/imac_welding_british_company/), Apple only licensed the FSW technology from its inventor (TWI) in early 2012. If so, that's a short time to ramp up to high volume production.

So I guess we should be blaming Jony Ive and his new obsession friction stir welding. 1biggrin.gif

post #63 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobM View Post

Bang on the nail Slurpy !

Well said. +1

But I do think Apple could do something to try and reverse the negative sentiment out there.  Especially if its likely we're not going to see any new product until June (WWDC).  The perception out there is the magic is gone without Steve, Apple isn't innovating anymore, Google and others are catching up to it in design (I just read an article today from a long time Mac user heaping praise on Chromebook Pixel and saying the trackpad is better than the MacBook trackpads).

 

It burns me up inside that Apple's approach is basically to sit there and take all the abuse and not fight back.  Why not let some of the SVP's schmooze the tech press like Google has been doing.  Give the Verge or some other friendly tech site an exclusive with Jony Ive or Bob Mansfield.  You don't have to reveal specific product plans.  It would just be a way to get some favorable PR and show off the leadership team.  And maybe start to chip away at this meme that Apple = Steve Jobs, every product was dreamed up by him and without him Apple is screwed. Seems to me Apple could be doing a better job of countering the negative sentiment.  Maybe that means being a little more open rather than doubling down on secrecy in Cupertino only to have the web full of rumors and leaks coming from Asia.

post #64 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroTech View Post

"after 25 years of Mac only use, I am buying a couple desktop PC's running Win7. No Mac Pro makes me sad, and an iMac is just a vertical laptop."

@xzu With the statements you made, there is no way that you were a Mac user for any time. You sound like a hard core Windows box user and may have used a Mac for half an hour. You just don't 'get' Macs if you put down the iMac as a vertical laptop. Powerful computers are made with powerful processors and graphics chips regardless of the shape of the box.

 

To be fair, I'm in the same boat as ElectroTech. I have used Macs since the bad old Mid-90's, rid out OS 7.5, 7,6, 8, 9 and the early versions of OS X until things got really good. And I evangelized the Mac the whole time. And despite that, I decided to downsize too, get a gaming PC and a Mac Mini with it. It doesn't please me, but the 21" iMac is now not much more then a good quality laptop in a less movable box. it's gorgeous and if it fits your needs, that's fantastic. But no discrete card, no upgradeable RAM? And to get that upgradeable RAM you have to start at 1800 dollars. I built the base of my gaming PC for 350 dollars, and added on a gorgeous 24" matte screen monitor that fits my space and a graphics card that destroys the one in the 2000$ 27" for 400 more. Is it elegant? No. God I hate Windows 8 too. But given the choice, I'd rather do what I want to do with a machine I dislike then have an iMac I know I'm going to be replacing in 2-3 years at a cost way too high.

 

The bottom line is Apple made a choice with the current iMac. It dropped the people who like upgradeable RAM and a good discrete card for the 21" in favor of getting more sleek-and-slim buyers. I'm 100% sure Apple made the right call for them. It just happens I landed outside. I hope one day they decide to make the headless iMac with a real card and RAM slots. I Hope one day Mac minis get external graphics card boxes so I can use that and my choice of PCI-E graphics cards. Until it does though, I'm stuck as-is. 

post #65 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

But I do think Apple could do something to try and reverse the negative sentiment out there.  Especially if its likely we're not going to see any new product until June (WWDC).  The perception out there is the magic is gone without Steve, Apple isn't innovating anymore, Google and others are catching up to it in design (I just read an article today from a long time Mac user heaping praise on Chromebook Pixel and saying the trackpad is better than the MacBook trackpads).

 

It burns me up inside that Apple's approach is basically to sit there and take all the abuse and not fight back.  Why not let some of the SVP's schmooze the tech press like Google has been doing.  Give the Verge or some other friendly tech site an exclusive with Jony Ive or Bob Mansfield.  You don't have to reveal specific product plans.  It would just be a way to get some favorable PR and show off the leadership team.  And maybe start to chip away at this meme that Apple = Steve Jobs, every product was dreamed up by him and without him Apple is screwed. Seems to me Apple could be doing a better job of countering the negative sentiment.  Maybe that means being a little more open rather than doubling down on secrecy in Cupertino only to have the web full of rumors and leaks coming from Asia.

 

What would Jony or Bob say in an interview that would lead to favorable PR? We all know they won't say peep about future endeavors to any degree, we know what they usually have to say which are largely platitudes about Apple's philosophy and products, which are all pretty boilerplate at this point. I honestly don't know that I'm getting much less out of the recent interviews with Cook that we would've gotten out of Jobs (Businessweek feature or Brian Williams interview), or that throwing Eddie Cue or Ive in would add much to most peoples' perceptions of Apple's executive team.

 

I'd honestly rather they ignore all of the noise as much as possible and focus on what they're doing, which is churning out gazillions of high quality products and, despite what the mainstream media and bottom-feeding bloggers would have you believe, working on the Next Big Things, whatever those may be. It's absolutely ludicrous to think that anyone who understands how Apple works would believe any of this tripe suggesting Apple is sitting on its thumbs waiting for someone else to copy or catch up to. I don't need them to show proof-of-concept demoware like Google (hey what happened to the Nexus Q anyway?). It may take longer than we all want for the next huge market disruption to come, but if I had to place my bets on where it was going to come from (and I have) I'm going with Apple. 

 

"Don't bet against us" - Tim Cook

post #66 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by saintstryfe View Post

But given the choice, I'd rather do what I want to do with a machine I dislike then have an iMac I know I'm going to be replacing in 2-3 years at a cost way too high.

2-3 years? Why do you need to replace it in that short time period?
post #67 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

But I do think Apple could do something to try and reverse the negative sentiment out there.  Especially if its likely we're not going to see any new product until June (WWDC).  The perception out there is the magic is gone without Steve, Apple isn't innovating anymore, Google and others are catching up to it in design (I just read an article today from a long time Mac user heaping praise on Chromebook Pixel and saying the trackpad is better than the MacBook trackpads).

 

It burns me up inside that Apple's approach is basically to sit there and take all the abuse and not fight back.  Why not let some of the SVP's schmooze the tech press like Google has been doing.  Give the Verge or some other friendly tech site an exclusive with Jony Ive or Bob Mansfield.  You don't have to reveal specific product plans.  It would just be a way to get some favorable PR and show off the leadership team.  And maybe start to chip away at this meme that Apple = Steve Jobs, every product was dreamed up by him and without him Apple is screwed. Seems to me Apple could be doing a better job of countering the negative sentiment.  Maybe that means being a little more open rather than doubling down on secrecy in Cupertino only to have the web full of rumors and leaks coming from Asia.

What fastasleep ^ said.

You can't win playing counter spin when you go down that road.

I do agree that Apples secrecy has made it real easy for rumours to swirl - but that said I think Apple should stick to the knitting and keep developing and marketing great products.

 

The markets just the market - hell you buy when you think it's low and hope like hell you're right. Sell when you've got enough and try to make some sense of when to buy back in. Jeez, everybody gets caught out sooner or later - ask Einhorn lol. God Ive waited for years for some of my dodgy gold mining stocks to do something. Many of them have folded -  bye bye money. I can wallpaper your house if you want and your mothers and your dogs kennel.

 

Cue the "but I own a part of the company howls of indignation, it ain't good enough, Cook has to go !" posts


Edited by RobM - 3/1/13 at 6:32pm
post #68 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

 

I'm curious, what the hell is it you do that requires a Mac Pro, and not a "vertical laptop" as you call the iMac? The iMac is an very powerful machine, so tell me, what is that you do that an iMac or any other Mac can't handle?

 

Slurpy, 

 

I do this http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-266/ ( Yes, it runs on the Mac ) and I would like to put 2 of these http://www.nvidia.com/titan in it! You can have 2 GPUs working together on CUDA tasks.  If you don't know what CUDA is look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CUDA also OpenCL will be supported in the future.  If you don't know what OpenCL is look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL

 

I will be buying the new Mac Pro if it ever comes out!  :-)   

post #69 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post

 

What would Jony or Bob say in an interview that would lead to favorable PR? We all know they won't say peep about future endeavors to any degree, we know what they usually have to say which are largely platitudes about Apple's philosophy and products, which are all pretty boilerplate at this point. I honestly don't know that I'm getting much less out of the recent interviews with Cook that we would've gotten out of Jobs (Businessweek feature or Brian Williams interview), or that throwing Eddie Cue or Ive in would add much to most peoples' perceptions of Apple's executive team.

 

I'd honestly rather they ignore all of the noise as much as possible and focus on what they're doing, which is churning out gazillions of high quality products and, despite what the mainstream media and bottom-feeding bloggers would have you believe, working on the Next Big Things, whatever those may be. It's absolutely ludicrous to think that anyone who understands how Apple works would believe any of this tripe suggesting Apple is sitting on its thumbs waiting for someone else to copy or catch up to. I don't need them to show proof-of-concept demoware like Google (hey what happened to the Nexus Q anyway?). It may take longer than we all want for the next huge market disruption to come, but if I had to place my bets on where it was going to come from (and I have) I'm going with Apple. 

 

"Don't bet against us" - Tim Cook

Saw this on Jon Gruber's blog tonight.  A hardware review of Chromebook Pixel.

 

http://daringfireball.net/

 

Quote:
Another great hardware review, this one by Ian Betteridge:
 
The Pixel makes me feel that Google probably took one look around its own campus at the plethora of Macs people were using, despite all of them mostly using web apps, and wondered why there wasn’t a Chromebook which could tempt its own employees to ChromeOS. The Pixel is the answer to that — and also for people like me, who wants a good quality machine and are happy to pay a premium price for it. […]
 
But it’s also a statement about Google, too, because it says that Google can do hardware with the same attention to detail and quality that Apple does. It’s not a shot across Apple’s bows, but more putting a flag in the ground that says “Come on Cupertino, we can do hardware — you think you can do services?”
 
Indeed, the Chromebook Pixel seems like another bit of evidence that Google is getting better at what Apple does best faster than Apple is getting better at what Google does best.

 

So now Google is equated with Apple in terms of hardware design.  And several weeks ago The Verge ran a feature story aka puff piece on Larry Page's software design revolution at Google.  And a lot of chatter out there is how Google is out-designing Apple in the software space, that the best designed apps on iOS come from Google.
 
I've no doubt Apple is working on lots of cool shit. But how is being so secretive and closed actually helping them right now?  Especially when you have Samsung spending $12B carpet bombing the world with advertising and Google giving tech sites an early look at Google glass (which in turn generates absurdly positive reviews of Chrombook Pixel).  All we get from Apple is Cook saying the pipeline is chock full of stuff.  But since we get no clues on what that stuff might be its left to rumors from Wall Street analysts -mostly things everyone expects like thinner/lighter 5th gen iPad, retina iPad mini and MacBook airs, updated MacBooks with Haswell, etc. - or things that don't really excite anyone - like a cheaper plastic iPhone for China.
 
Just because Steve Jobs was obsessed with secrecy doesn't mean Tim Cook has to continue that tradition.  And it's not even working.  There were very few products, if any, that Apple released last year that weren't known ahead of time because of leaks.  4th gen iPad might have been a surprise but that's about it.
 
Maybe there's nothing Apple can do right now to change the perception out there but I don't think it would hurt to try.  Clearly Tim Cook is not the guy to do it.
post #70 of 115
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
And it's not even working.  There were very few products, if any, that Apple released last year that weren't known ahead of time because of leaks.

 

No one ever knew about any products before launch when Steve Jobs was alive. 


Clearly Tim Cook is not the guy to do it.

 

Fine, you do it. You'll take credit when their quarterly 13 billion in profit becomes 13 billion in losses, right?

Originally Posted by asdasd

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post #71 of 115
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

 

I've no doubt Apple is working on lots of cool shit. But how is being so secretive and closed actually helping them right now?

 

i dunno, maybe having the most profitable (unadjusted for inflation) year in corporate history. I'm sure Tim Cook et al. are crying in Apple's $140 billion cash/investments.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

 

Especially when you have Samsung spending $12B carpet bombing the world with advertising and Google giving tech sites an early look at Google glass (which in turn generates absurdly positive reviews of Chrombook Pixel).  All we get from Apple is Cook saying the pipeline is chock full of stuff.  But since we get no clues on what that stuff might be its left to rumors from Wall Street analysts -mostly things everyone expects like thinner/lighter 5th gen iPad, retina iPad mini and MacBook airs, updated MacBooks with Haswell, etc. - or things that don't really excite anyone - like a cheaper plastic iPhone for China.

 

Rumors have flown since Jobs came back. You can't stop it. If you pre-announce products, WS won't stop creating rumors. Hows' that $12B serving Sammy. The 4S outsold/shipped the GS3. The iphone is #1 and #2. Apple has 70% of the mobile profits. Where's the ROI on Sammy's advertising.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

 

Just because Steve Jobs was obsessed with secrecy doesn't mean Tim Cook has to continue that tradition.  And it's not even working.  There were very few products, if any, that Apple released last year that weren't known ahead of time because of leaks.  4th gen iPad might have been a surprise but that's about it.
 
Maybe there's nothing Apple can do right now to change the perception out there but I don't think it would hurt to try.  Clearly Tim Cook is not the guy to do it.

 

There is nothing Apple can do. WS will still make up negative stories. Apple could release financials on a daily period but WS will spin them negative. They spun the record 4th qtr numbers negatively.

post #72 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

So now Google is equated with Apple in terms of hardware design. 

 

Who cares? They're going to sell very few of these things. It's not like we haven't seen the results of meticulous copying of Apple's hardware already from other parties, so why does it matter if Google does it too?

 

Quote:
And several weeks ago The Verge ran a feature story aka puff piece on Larry Page's software design revolution at Google.  And a lot of chatter out there is how Google is out-designing Apple in the software space, that the best designed apps on iOS come from Google.

 

A lot of Google's software is beautifully designed. Some of it is terrible. Same applies to Apple really. Pretty sure we could find examples on both ends of the spectrum being produced by both camps. Revolution, I dunno about that. :) I'm curious to see what Apple has coming up this year for iOS (and OS X, and hopefully iWork). Let's not forget that Forstall is out now, and that may affect iOS and their supporting app design quite a bit (though who can say for sure at this point?). I suspect Jony Ive has some thoughts...

 

Quote:
I've no doubt Apple is working on lots of cool shit. But how is being so secretive and closed actually helping them right now?

 

By making them the most profitable tech company in the world? For starters.

 

Quote:
  Especially when you have Samsung spending $12B carpet bombing the world with advertising and Google giving tech sites an early look at Google glass (which in turn generates absurdly positive reviews of Chrombook Pixel).  All we get from Apple is Cook saying the pipeline is chock full of stuff.  But since we get no clues on what that stuff might be its left to rumors from Wall Street analysts -mostly things everyone expects like thinner/lighter 5th gen iPad, retina iPad mini and MacBook airs, updated MacBooks with Haswell, etc. - or things that don't really excite anyone - like a cheaper plastic iPhone for China.

 

With Samsung, what do you expect them to do? Outspend them on advertising? Google Glass is hardly a product at this point, it's a tech demo. You think they're going to sell millions of those and their overpriced browserbook? Announcing non-products far in advance of availability gains what exactly? Look at the Nexus Q. Oh wait, you can't.

 

Updates to existing successful products are a no-brainer; of course those are coming. Plastic phones for China is a rumor at this point. What on earth are you expecting them to do RIGHT NOW — announce something they are secretly working on in their lab? Give a prototype of some proof-of-concept device to some blogger to write about? Release their 5 year roadmap so competitors know exactly what to expect? So you can get excited? 

 

Quote:
Just because Steve Jobs was obsessed with secrecy doesn't mean Tim Cook has to continue that tradition.  And it's not even working.  There were very few products, if any, that Apple released last year that weren't known ahead of time because of leaks.  4th gen iPad might have been a surprise but that's about it.

 

You do realize that you previously said this:

 

Quote:
But since we get no clues on what that stuff might be

 

So, which is it?

 

Quote:
Maybe there's nothing Apple can do right now to change the perception out there but I don't think it would hurt to try.  Clearly Tim Cook is not the guy to do it.

 

I'm not convinced you could do better.

post #73 of 115

I've discussed the new iMac in numerous Mac forums, and many think the new iMac is dysfunctional.  People are astonished to find that this "all in one" has no optical drive, and feel that it was removed prematurely, for the sake of pushing consumers towards purchasing more content from apple.  The argument that the optical drive is antiquated is ludicrous.  There are still $billions in sales of videos, audio, and software.  I often use the the super drive in my 2011 iMac to rip CD's, burn movies, burn playlists, give photos and videos to friends, etc.  Of course you can buy an external drive, and hang one more ugly piece of equipment from you iMac, but you shouldn't have to.

 

And the SD card reader is located on the back?  Really?  Now that's convenient.  And no USB ports in a convenient location either?  That's ridiculous.  I have two USB extension cables running from the back of my iMac, just so I can have quick access to a USB port.  Most people I've conversed with don't give a crap about how thin the new iMac is -- It still looks the same from the front.

 

Give me 1" iMac with an optical drive and some conveniently placed ports, and then I'll consider purchasing one.  I plan on keeping my 2011 for as long as possible.

post #74 of 115

Rogifan- no offence, but you're confusing the share market with the company. As do many round here.

You guys can't seem to separate the two.

They are related, of course.

If you're trading you can only win or lose to others in the market.

Divs, share splits, buy backs are all part of it, if you're positioned to be able to take advantage.

Leveraged too much one way - hell it can be fantastic or can cane your arse.

Timing and liquidity are your friends. But sometimes because of a decision that YOU made ya just gotta wait and wait for it to play out.

Dont expect Apple  to help you in your endeavour to try and make money from the sharemarket. I don't - never have, not from any company

 

Really - Its what Slurpy posted above.


Edited by RobM - 3/1/13 at 11:04pm
post #75 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

None of these things requires more than a 680M. Video encoding is CPU-dependent. 

 

Solely regarding the gpu issue, I have to say it varies. Most 3d rendering is still cpu based. A lot of the newer ones seem to build in some way of leveraging the gpu, but the most widely used engines remain cpu based. Television or film renders could use gigabytes worth of mapped textures and complex shader stacks on hero objects. This is difficult to deal with at a gpu level. I'm certain these companies would like to implement more gpu based functionality. After Effects went this route with their raytracer, but I don't know how well After Effects would support complex retexturing. I've never tried it, but it would make for a rather complex set of layers given the required passes, if it even works without artifacting. If the comment was regarding 3d applications and CAD in general, much of that comes down to drivers. Gaming benchmarks mean very little there. Unfortunately this is an inconsistent issue. Sometimes the gaming cards work really well. The 680M isn't the fastest available, but it's not a bad card. If someone has a highly gpu constrained workload, I understand why they would want the fastest available when it cannot be upgraded after purchase. You can also go higher in ram on the desktop versions, which goes back to what I mentioned about gpu based renderers. There are reasons to want one thing over another. As for 3d apps, they have a much larger following on Windows than OSX. Apple has picked up some stuff that used to run solely on Linux, which is really great for them.

post #76 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Do you know what the average PC sells for? It's well under half that $1900 price. Even among Macs $1900 is about $700 above the average sale price. For these reasons alone I don't see how this would kill all non-Mac PC sales.
That's not true. Last Christmas I did a draft of the PC I'll build if Apple fails to release the computer I need. So I did a configuration with the fastest i7 available, a 4GB NVIDIA card, 512 GB SSD, and a good PSU. The price, from a low cost provider was into the $1600 range. Any PC user who wants to build a good computer for gaming, rendering, music production, video, photo, etc, aim for a configuration like the one I mention, so in the $1500 - $1600 range. So, yes, a $1900 Mac with the same power would be a PC killer, because the slightly higher price is reasonable considering Apple higher quality builds, ultra silent behavior, etc...

Anyway, I didn't finally buy that configuration, because I'm waiting for the next Apple move.

Regarding some other comments I read, I don't think the problem with Apple desktops is that "there's nothing in the middle". The problem is that Apple lacks the most demanded sector of current desktops, which isn't the middle, but top i7s with top GPUs. Apple doesn't sell you a top i7 with a top GPU unless you're willing to buy it attached to a 28 inch display (and attached in a way that you cannot service it in case some component fails). Paying $3000 for such a configuration it's a joke, and it goes up to that price because of the nonsense of buying it attached to a 28 inch display, and because the only SSD option is 768 GB.

Problem is that Apple isn't neglecting 20% of the desktop market by doing this, but 80% of the desktop market.

Current Mac desktops are targeted to users who don't need a desktop. That's the problem. No wonder Apple is in the "post desktop" era. If you don't release the desktops that desktop users need, how couldn't you be in the "post desktop" era?
Edited by ecs - 3/2/13 at 2:34am
post #77 of 115
.
I have wanted a MacBook for a while but I will not buy one with less than 16 gig of Ram.

That means I have to spend 3K for the only model that has 16 gig ram.

Not likely.

Less than 16 is basically obsolete out the door.
.
post #78 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghangstalked View Post

.
I have wanted a MacBook for a while but I will not buy one with less than 16 gig of Ram.

That means I have to spend 3K for the only model that has 16 gig ram.

Not likely.

Less than 16 is basically obsolete out the door.
.

 

Regarding your wish of 16GB RAM on your laptop, you might consider my experience on laptops vs desktops:

 

I've been an advocate of replacing desktops by laptops for some years now. However, I've changed my opinion this last year. Why? Well, because the latest hardware runs *hot*. I'm very happy with my MacBook Air, use it everyday, and it's the best computer I've owned in terms of balance between comfort and performance. But, when I push it to 100% CPU or 100% GPU, its fans jump to full speed. If I need 100% performance for more than 15 minutes, I don't believe that's healthy for my Macbook, it was certainly designed for less demanding work. The same happens to MacBook Pros: push it to 100% CPU/GPU and fans go crazy.

 

My current opinion about laptops is that if you need to have the machine working at 100% for more than 15 minutes, that's not a healthy task for a laptop, but for a desktop. So, I´ll complement my Macbook Air with a (powerful) desktop in coming months. Long renderings jobs (LuxRender and such), as well as gaming, will go to the desktop. On the other hand, I'll continue to use the MacBook Air for source code compiling, as well as Office and Gimp work, and also for very demanding CPU/GPU work if it doesn't last more than a few minutes.

 

One thing I'll not repeat on my MacBook Air is playing the Sims 3 for a whole morning. Performance of Sims3 is very good on the MacBook Air, but fans are at top speed during all your game, and the laptop surface really *burns* (I cannot keep my finger over the first row of the keyboard -just where the CPU and the GPU are- because it burns).

 

I'm saying this just in case your wish of having 16GB RAM on a laptop was for doing things similar to what I do with my MacBook Air, just in case it helps.

post #79 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post

 

Who cares? They're going to sell very few of these things. It's not like we haven't seen the results of meticulous copying of Apple's hardware already from other parties, so why does it matter if Google does it too?

 

 

A lot of Google's software is beautifully designed. Some of it is terrible. Same applies to Apple really. Pretty sure we could find examples on both ends of the spectrum being produced by both camps. Revolution, I dunno about that. :) I'm curious to see what Apple has coming up this year for iOS (and OS X, and hopefully iWork). Let's not forget that Forstall is out now, and that may affect iOS and their supporting app design quite a bit (though who can say for sure at this point?). I suspect Jony Ive has some thoughts...

 

 

By making them the most profitable tech company in the world? For starters.

 

 

With Samsung, what do you expect them to do? Outspend them on advertising? Google Glass is hardly a product at this point, it's a tech demo. You think they're going to sell millions of those and their overpriced browserbook? Announcing non-products far in advance of availability gains what exactly? Look at the Nexus Q. Oh wait, you can't.

 

Updates to existing successful products are a no-brainer; of course those are coming. Plastic phones for China is a rumor at this point. What on earth are you expecting them to do RIGHT NOW — announce something they are secretly working on in their lab? Give a prototype of some proof-of-concept device to some blogger to write about? Release their 5 year roadmap so competitors know exactly what to expect? So you can get excited? 

 

 

You do realize that you previously said this:

 

 

So, which is it?

 

 

I'm not convinced you could do better.

All I'm saying is we've gone nearly 6 months now with a lot of negative sentiment and I don't see Apple really doing anything to try and change that. I'll go back to a quote Jony Ive gave Walter Isaacson for his Steve Jobs book.  It was in reference to the perception that Steve was the only ideas guy at Apple.  Ive said: “That makes us vulnerable as a company".  Well that perception is alive and well out there isn't it?

 

I think a lot of the perceptions of the company right now are flat out wrong but they're out there and often times perception can become reality.  Look at the stock - down 36% over the last 6 months, 21% over the last 12 months.  All the while releasing great products, raking in record profits and amassing a humongous cash pile. FUD and D&G helps drive the stock down which in turn creates more FUD and D&G which in turn keeps driving the stock down.  It's a vicious cycle.

 

I'm not saying I have the answer or could do better but when perception is so far away from reality and is helping to drive the stock down to a 52 week low (while the overall market is at or near record highs) doesn't management have a responsibility to try and turn that perception around?  Obviously it's not just about pushing out product as they updated nearly all of their product line in the second half of the year and yet the stock dropped 36%.  Or do we say the stock was in a bubble and had to burst (even though stocks like Google, Amazon and Netflix show no signs of bursting)?


Edited by Rogifan - 3/2/13 at 5:10am
post #80 of 115
Originally Posted by zBernie View Post
I've discussed the new iMac in numerous Mac forums, and many[who?][citation needed] think the new iMac is dysfunctional. People[who?][citation needed] are astonished to find that this "all in one" has no optical drive, and feel that it was removed prematurely[citation needed], for the sake of pushing consumers towards purchasing more content from apple. The argument that the optical drive is antiquated is ludicrous[citation needed].

And the SD card reader is located on the back? Really? Now that's convenient.[disputed] And no USB ports in a convenient[disputed]location either?  That's ridiculous[disputed]. I have two USB extension cables running from the back of my iMac, just so I can have quick access to a USB port. Most people[who?][citation needed]I've conversed with don't give a crap about how thin the new iMac is -- It still looks the same from the front.

 

*cough*


Give me 1" iMac with an optical drive and some conveniently placed ports, and then I'll consider purchasing one.

 

Or you could accept that you're just never going to buy an iMac again based on ludicrous requirements and an unwillingness to move forward.


Originally Posted by ecs View Post
Problem is that Apple isn't neglecting 20% of the desktop market by doing this, but 80% of the desktop market.

Current Mac desktops are targeted to users who don't need a desktop.

 

So that's basically nonsense right there.


No wonder Apple is in the "post desktop" era.

 

No, post-PC. Huge difference.


Originally Posted by Ghangstalked View Post
Less than 16 is basically obsolete out the door.

 

This isn't true, either.


Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
All I'm saying is we've gone nearly 6 months now with a lot of negative sentiment and I don't see Apple really doing anything to try and change that.

 

Right, they never have at any point in their history, and they don't have to. The only thing that they need to do is perform well enough to prove these people are liars. Same thing they did when they were actually in any sort of trouble back in '96.


…often times perception can become reality.

 

$130 billion dollars is just going to magically disappear because people think they're bankrupt?

 

Look at the stock - down 36% over the last 6 months, 21% over the last 12 months.  All the while releasing great products, raking in record profits and amassing a humongous cash pile. FUD and D&G helps drive the stock down which in turn creates more FUD and D&G which in turn keeps driving the stock down.  It's a vicious cycle.

 

You're missing the big point here: the stock is meaningless. This isn't. This is tangible, and it's proof that everything else being said is sheer crap.


Or do we say the stock was in a bubble and had to burst (even though stocks like Google, Amazon and Netflix show no signs of bursting)?

 

On the contrary, one could say that since Apple "burst", those companies crash that much harder. 

Originally Posted by asdasd

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Originally Posted by asdasd

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