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After 'astonishingly' poor quarter, Mac sales predicted to rebound - Page 3

post #81 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Right, they never have at any point in their history, and they don't have to. The only thing that they need to do is perform well enough to prove these people are liars. Same thing they did when they were actually in any sort of trouble back in '96.

 

$130 billion dollars is just going to magically disappear because people think they're bankrupt?

 

I'm talking about the perception that they don't innovate anymore, that the magic is gone now that Steve is gone. That they need to ape Samsung's business model of making stuff in every conceivable size and price point to survive.  That the iPad is threatened by Android and Windows OEM's pushing out cheap no margin hardware.  That Google is on par with Apple in terms of hardware design (gee not hard to do when you have the best to copy from) yet Apple isn't even close to matching Google in what they do best (services).  That everyone now wants a 5" phone and 6" phablet with 1080p displays, widgets and "real multitasking" and Apple is falling behind if they don't cater to that.  And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

You're missing the big point here: the stock is meaningless. This isn't. This is tangible, and it's proof that everything else being said is sheer crap.

 

The stock isn't meaningless.  Especially if it's used to attract and retain talent.  Also a falling stock price just drives people to spew more crap.

 

On the contrary, one could say that since Apple "burst", those companies crash that much harder. 

 

I guess we'll see if that happens.  Google is up 14% year-to-date with Wall Street analysts upping price targets.  Amazon is up 6%, Netflix up 104%.  Apple down 19%.  Not saying any of it makes sense but it doesn't have to does it?

post #82 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

 

i dunno, maybe having the most profitable (unadjusted for inflation) year in corporate history. I'm sure Tim Cook et al. are crying in Apple's $140 billion cash/investments.

 

Well if I was an employee in an stock purchase program not sure I'd be to happy. Obviously th stock decline is bothering Tim Cook as he said as much at the shareholders meeting.  And isn't Silicon Valley and the tech industry known for using stock options to attract and retain top talent?  Right or wrong Wall Street isn't confident Apple will be able to continue these record profits.  And they look at that huge cash pile wondering what the hell Apple is planning to do with it.  

 

Rumors have flown since Jobs came back. You can't stop it. If you pre-announce products, WS won't stop creating rumors. Hows' that $12B serving Sammy. The 4S outsold/shipped the GS3. The iphone is #1 and #2. Apple has 70% of the mobile profits. Where's the ROI on Sammy's advertising.

 

I'm not suggeting Apple should pre-announce things but what is doubling down on secrecy in Cupertino doing for them?  Was there anything last year that really surprised you?  I guess the new iPods didn't leak but just about everything else did.

 

There is nothing Apple can do. WS will still make up negative stories. Apple could release financials on a daily period but WS will spin them negative. They spun the record 4th qtr numbers negatively.

 

I don't agree that there's nothing they can do.  I don't know who's responsible for their ads lately but they're not very good IMO.  And they have a huge opportunity here as the ads coming out of Microsoft and Samsung are just dreadful.  And I think Tim Cook is probably not the right guy to be the only mouthpiece for the company (outside of Oppenheimer on investor calls).  Listening to him speak at keynotes can sometimes be cringe worthy.  Tim might be the perfect guy to run the company but I don't think he's its best spokesperson.  IMO Apple should let Schiller and Ive be the face of the company.

post #83 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

I have no doubts there are a few but eca said it "would sell in larger amounts than the whole desktop line in this moment."

Who is switching?

People like these.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/112528/apple-blogs-mac-fanatics-disillusioned-over-company-direction

http://mergy.org/2012/12/irecognition-i-am-no-longer-apples-target-market/

http://macperformanceguide.com/AppleCoreRot-intro.html
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post #84 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoffdino View Post

Have you stopped crying wolf for a moment and think why it’s been going down so spectacularly in the past 5 months? I don’t disagree that short sellers and hedgies play a (major?) role in it, but how can they do it so far and for so long? It’s because Tim Cook and the board doesn’t care one bit about shareholders. All he keeps saying is “we take a long view”,  “we care more about innovation”. None of these is wrong, but he isn’t feeling or sharing the pain of the shareholder when the stock keeps dropping and dropping. He has tools to fight against it: a PR to announce X millions iPhones sold, a denial of rumors, dividend hikes, buyback boosts, …. And yet he chose to do nothing.


It’s like you have a gangster brother but the bullies know you aren’t telling him nothing. Do you think they will stop stealing your lunch money or giving you wedgies? They will bully you until you’re on life support. Your friends will be too scared to play with you now.

Last week there was news of Foxconn hiring freeze that was automatically translated to Apple’s production cut. In fact it was due to better than expected retention rate (note how no one credited Apple with improving the working conditions at Foxconn). Just today, there’s rumor of inventory buildup in Europe because iPhone 5 isn’t selling--it can be due to a myriad of things, including that Apple has solved iPhone 5 production problems and start to build channel inventory toward their 4 - 6 weeks target. Every Apple story has been twisted to shine negative light on the company, and management refused to clarify it. Tim Cook could have simply call his broker and order a $1B share buyback. Announce it at 3pm, and slap the bears in the face. That would convince me that he means serious business.

See? Apple is nothing to these people but a revenue stream. Why they would be attracted to an Apple enthusiast site and annoy others with arguments that support predatory actions against Apple is beyond me.

Capitalism is over, if you want it.
post #85 of 115

I don't know what planet you are from, but here on Earth, every desktop computer I've ever seen has conveniently placed SD and USB ports.  Ludicrous requirements?

post #86 of 115
Originally Posted by zBernie View Post
I don't know what planet you are from, but here on Earth, every desktop computer I've ever seen has conveniently placed SD and USB ports.  Ludicrous requirements?

 

You've ignored the only relevant portion of that reply, I see.

 

The ports aren't inconvenient, anyway.

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post #87 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
Well if I was an employee in an stock purchase program not sure I'd be to happy. Obviously th stock decline is bothering Tim Cook as he said as much at the shareholders meeting.  And isn't Silicon Valley and the tech industry known for using stock options to attract and retain top talent?  Right or wrong Wall Street isn't confident Apple will be able to continue these record profits.  And they look at that huge cash pile wondering what the hell Apple is planning to do with it. 
 

 

employees don't pay for options so they get them free. Sure they would love $700/share but $400/share is nothing to sneeze at.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View PostI'm talking about the perception that they don't innovate anymore, that the magic is gone now that Steve is gone. That they need to ape Samsung's business model of making stuff in every conceivable size and price point to survive.  That the iPad is threatened by Android and Windows OEM's pushing out cheap no margin hardware.  That Google is on par with Apple in terms of hardware design (gee not hard to do when you have the best to copy from) yet Apple isn't even close to matching Google in what they do best (services).  That everyone now wants a 5" phone and 6" phablet with 1080p displays, widgets and "real multitasking" and Apple is falling behind if they don't cater to that.  And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Apple has 70% of the mobile profits with the 3 iphones models they are selling While I do see a larger iphone as a complement, I don't think using the shotgun approach has worked. If everyone wanted a 5/6" phablet, the iphone wouldn't be #1 and #2, would it.

post #88 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

 

employees don't pay for options so they get them free. Sure they would love $700/share but $400/share is nothing to sneeze at.

 

 

Apple has 70% of the mobile profits with the 3 iphones models they are selling While I do see a larger iphone as a complement, I don't think using the shotgun approach has worked. If everyone wanted a 5/6" phablet, the iphone wouldn't be #1 and #2, would it.

Again the narrative doesn't have to be factual to be peddled and lapped up by Wall Street and the tech press.

post #89 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

Again the narrative doesn't have to be factual to be peddled and lapped up by Wall Street and the tech press.

Exactly. WS will spin negatively regardless if Apple streams it's internal meetings to the Internet.
post #90 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

Exactly. WS will spin negatively regardless if Apple streams it's internal meetings to the Internet.

This is correct.

Rogifan, if you walk by a yard with a bunch of chihuahuas behind the fence and they start yapping at you, do you stop and argue with them and yell at them to shut up?

No, you don't, because you know they're going to start yapping worse if you do. You lose all dignity as a human if you yell at them besides.

Apple is surrounded by a pack of nervous, shivering chihuahuas. It cannot stoop to argue with them. THAT would be the worse disaster.

And I've never seen anything Tim Cook do on stage that is cringeworthy. Like Jobs said, paraphrasing here, he is like a clock ticking in a thunderstorm. Absolute mastery is his vibe. Yes he has to try to convey emotion, but that I find reassuring, because it's sincere. Finally, don't ask the artist Ive to be in a PR role. That would be unfair.
post #91 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

And I've never seen anything Tim Cook do on stage that is cringeworthy. Like Jobs said, paraphrasing here, he is like a clock ticking in a thunderstorm. Absolute mastery is his vibe. Yes he has to try to convey emotion, but that I find reassuring, because it's sincere. Finally, don't ask the artist Ive to be in a PR role. That would be unfair.

For me sometimes it seems like Cook almost tries to hard.  His cadence seems a bit off. My suggestion with Ive is because he seems to be universally liked.  I mean he did a 5 minute segment on a British children's TV show and it's all over the web and all over my twitter feed.  It seems like people eat up anything they get from him,  Plus with his new role overseeing both hardware and software design he seems to be the one in a role that most closely resembles what Steve's role was.  I get he doesn't want to be on stage doing keynotes, but I think there are other ways he could be used.  Apple seems to have no problem giving the UK media access to him.  How about they do the same over here?

post #92 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by zBernie View Post

Of course you can buy an external drive, and hang one more ugly piece of equipment from you iMac, but you shouldn't have to.

 

You're part of a rapidly shrinking minority, and Apple is, as usual, ahead of the curve. Why not velcro a DVD-R drive to the back of the machine, since you're never looking back there anyway? Functionally it would be the same, and out of view.

post #93 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

I'm not saying I have the answer or could do better but when perception is so far away from reality and is helping to drive the stock down to a 52 week low (while the overall market is at or near record highs) doesn't management have a responsibility to try and turn that perception around?  Obviously it's not just about pushing out product as they updated nearly all of their product line in the second half of the year and yet the stock dropped 36%.  Or do we say the stock was in a bubble and had to burst (even though stocks like Google, Amazon and Netflix show no signs of bursting)?

 

They are doing something about it, by focusing on releasing insanely great products. Or whatever their current mantra is. They can't do anything beyond that to make the stock go up, and you haven't provided any guidance as to what that might be, beyond them waving their hands in the air and saying "Hey look at us, we're as good as Steve!"  The market wants them to put up or shut up, and that's what they're doing. Breaking sales and profit records. The stock is down because growth slowed. Whether that's a harbinger of things to come remains to be seen. They could come out with something completely new this year, or two years from now, that sends it in the opposite direction. Give them some freaking time, for chrissakes.

post #94 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
I'm talking about the perception that they don't innovate anymore, that the magic is gone now that Steve is gone. That they need to ape Samsung's business model of making stuff in every conceivable size and price point to survive.  That the iPad is threatened by Android and Windows OEM's pushing out cheap no margin hardware.  That Google is on par with Apple in terms of hardware design (gee not hard to do when you have the best to copy from) yet Apple isn't even close to matching Google in what they do best (services).  That everyone now wants a 5" phone and 6" phablet with 1080p displays, widgets and "real multitasking" and Apple is falling behind if they don't cater to that.  And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

But the people who know better know that this is all largely bullshit. I don't believe any of this, do you?

post #95 of 115
Why are we using red text in thread?

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post #96 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

For me sometimes it seems like Cook almost tries to hard. 

You want to see trying too hard? Check out Qualcomm's keynote from CES, that was cringeworthy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7qTHbOEiDY

 

Jobs was a master at presentations, but he's not here anymore. I think Cook does a fine job, and he *does* share the stage with Schiller and others.

post #97 of 115
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post
Why are we using red text in thread?

 

Because doing a split quote is hard!

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post #98 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by EMoeller View Post

The iPad is getting tantalizingly close to having the capabilities of a high end laptop
 

 

You must be joking, right?

 

The iPad is a great device, but it isn't close to having the capabilities of a bargain-bin special laptop, let alone a high-end one. You can't even have two apps on screen at the same time. Computers could do that 20 years ago!

post #99 of 115
Originally Posted by Euphonious View Post
The iPad is a great device, but it isn't close to having the capabilities of a bargain-bin special laptop…

 

Challenge.


You can't even have two apps on screen at the same time. Computers could do that 20 years ago!

 

It also doesn't have a SCSI port. So the iPad isn't as good as 20 year old computers, in your mind.

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post #100 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Challenge.

 

It also doesn't have a SCSI port. So the iPad isn't as good as 20 year old computers, in your mind.


Not quite an apt analogy. No use for SCSI port anymore. But multiple windows would be nice from time  to time.

post #101 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Challenge.

Challenge?
Show me your FLAC to MP3 encoding times from your iPad.
Show me your workflow for PSDs with more than 20 layers and over 4K x 4K resolution on your iPad (as well as your timings for filters applying on such images)
Show me your LuxRender rendering times on your iPad.
Show me how you edit a complete urban planning project with AutoCAD on your iPad.
Show me how you do on iOS any project that requires external references, considering that iOS apps cannot have external references to files owned by other apps.
Show me Xcode working on your iPad.

Do you want more challenge, or is it enough with this?
post #102 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs View Post

Challenge?
Show me your FLAC to MP3 encoding times from your iPad.
Show me your workflow for PSDs with more than 20 layers and over 4K x 4K resolution on your iPad (as well as your timings for filters applying on such images)
Show me your LuxRender rendering times on your iPad.
Show me how you edit a complete urban planning project with AutoCAD on your iPad.
Show me how you do on iOS any project that requires external references, considering that iOS apps cannot have external references to files owned by other apps.
Show me Xcode working on your iPad.

Do you want more challenge, or is it enough with this?

The comment was "The iPad is a great device, but it isn't close to having the capabilities of a bargain-bin special laptop." Surely a different type of computing device ha difference benefits and capabilities but the OP's implication was that the iPad doesn't have any benefits over a bargain-bin notebook. Do you agree with that undertone that the iPad is inferior to an bargain-bin laptop in every way? If so, then why is it so popular?

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post #103 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Do you agree with that undertone that the iPad is inferior to an bargain-bin laptop in every way? If so, then why is it so popular?
It is popular because of social networks, Internet browsing, and simple media apps. But, when it comes to any real computer work (beginning with code compiling, and extending to most stuff you can do on a Mac), the iPad cannot be used for that.
post #104 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

The comment was "The iPad is a great device, but it isn't close to having the capabilities of a bargain-bin special laptop." Surely a different type of computing device ha difference benefits and capabilities but the OP's implication was that the iPad doesn't have any benefits over a bargain-bin notebook. Do you agree with that undertone that the iPad is inferior to an bargain-bin laptop in every way? If so, then why is it so popular?

Because most people just want to email, be on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, watch YouTube and read books.
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post #105 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs View Post

It is popular because of social networks, Internet browsing, and simple media apps. But, when it comes to any real computer work (beginning with code compiling, and extending to most stuff you can do on a Mac), the iPad cannot be used for that.

Really? Code compiling? That's your counter argument? That's like arguing that 'bargain-bin notebooks" are crap for everyone because they are't good for rendering Pixar films.

PS: You can run compilers on the iPad or iPhone or iPod Touch if you really want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Because most people just want to email, be on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, watch YouTube and read books.

And are any of these better suited for the iPad over other computing devices? If not, then why is the iPad so popular?

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post #106 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Really? Code compiling? That's your counter argument? That's like arguing that 'bargain-bin notebooks" are crap for everyone because they are't good for rendering Pixar films.

PS: You can run compilers on the iPad or iPhone or iPod Touch if you really want to.
And are any of these better suited for the iPad over other computing devices? If not, then why is the iPad so popular?

You didn't read my post. I wrote a (quite incomplete) list of typical tasks you do on a Mac but cannot be done on iPad in a reasonable way. Regarding compilers, I'd be very interested in knowing how do you build an iOS app from iOS (no, that's not my main argument, but you said it's possible to do it, so please tell how...)
post #107 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs View Post

You didn't read my post. I wrote a (quite incomplete) list of typical tasks you do on a Mac but cannot be done on iPad in a reasonable way. Regarding compilers, I'd be very interested in knowing how do you build an iOS app from iOS (no, that's not my main argument, but you said it's possible to do it, so please tell how...)

1) I did read your post. If you implied something not stated I may have missed it as I skim most comments and don't often look for hidden messages.

2) You stated things that can't be done with a standard setup of the iPad but you made it sound like it's impossible to do as well made these tasks out to be requirements for the average user when they clearly aren't. You give me any machine and I can give you a (quite incomplete) lists of things it can't do which makes me wonder why that is an argument someone would take. Lets remember that converting FLAC to MP3 was your first item.

3) I never said build an iOS app I said code compiling as that is what you said in your post about how you define "real" computer work (which sounds elitist in every way). I'm not even a coder but I am well aware that there are plenty of compliers for iOS. They've been there for years in the JB community. Why you'd want this is on an iPhone is another story but it's there for the very few and far between that can have a use for it.

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post #108 of 115
Originally Posted by ecs View Post
Do you want more challenge, or is it enough with this?

 

Sure, I'd like some actually relevant data; that'd be cool.


Originally Posted by ecs View Post
But, when it comes to any real computer work… …the iPad cannot be used for that.

 

On second thought, forget it. You've already given me all the answers I need.

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post #109 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Really? Code compiling? That's your counter argument? That's like arguing that 'bargain-bin notebooks" are crap for everyone because they are't good for rendering Pixar films.

PS: You can run compilers on the iPad or iPhone or iPod Touch if you really want to.
And are any of these better suited for the iPad over other computing devices? If not, then why is the iPad so popular?

Because it's bigger than a smartphone and can be done lounging on a bed or sofa without being cumbersome like a laptop.
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post #110 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Because it's bigger than a smartphone and can be done lounging on a bed or sofa without being cumbersome like a laptop.

So size and weight have intrinsic value. I'd add that since most people use their "computers" to do a fairly small range of similar tasks that iOS is designed to be a versatile appliance to cater to those common uses with the HW being fast enough to serve those needs very well.

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

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post #111 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Why are we using red text in thread?

Because its easier than trying to split quotes.  This site sucks on the iPad.

post #112 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post

 

But the people who know better know that this is all largely bullshit. I don't believe any of this, do you?

No but constant D&G and FUD out there does impact sentiment and mindshare and very well may impact future sales.  I guess I'm just sick of all the negativity, which had even seeped into fan sites.  Go to MacRumors some day and the amount of negative Apple sentiment outweighs the positive  9:1.  

 

I guess my frustration leads me wish Apple would do something about it except ride it out and hope new products turn the negative meme around.  What worries me though is Apple refreshed basically their entire product line last year yet the D&G from the media and tech press is higher than ever.  What evidence is there that 2013 will be any different except that maybe the media will get bored of pushing this meme and move on to someone else.

post #113 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDO2000 View Post

He isn't really far off though. The imac does not have desktop class graphics. The imac uses laptop grade video cards which aren't as powerful as their desktop counterparts. /shrug

True, but how many gamers would buy iMac, even if it is offered with desktop grade graphics? Gamers are usually into building their machines, unless they don't go for some pre-built Alienware/Clevo/whatever boutique gaming desktop manufacturer.

I don't really think Apple would get many customers from that market share at this stage, so... why bother?
post #114 of 115
I would echo saarek's comment completely. Apart from the iMac, which has a totally uncalled-for further slimming down (for no reason) and concomitantly a massive reduction is user-friendliness (upgradeability, connectivity), there is no real MacPro and the MacMini is no alternative for ppl looking for a bit more muscle. Apple's desktop 'strategy' has lost its direction, what with a new MacPro coming (or not? Pros need some planning space) and the iMac being a virtual design-zombie no even getting produced properly.

So, I had these (expected) poor sales will lead Apple into a better direction. It's not that people don't want Macs as desktops (I recently bought a new iMac of the previous generation, which is much better value for me than the current line-up) but they need a decent offer.
post #115 of 115
Originally Posted by Entologos View Post
Apart from the iMac, which has a totally uncalled-for further slimming down[citation needed] (for no reason[citation needed]) and concomitantly a massive reduction[citation needed] in user-friendliness (upgradeability, connectivity[citation needed]), there is no real MacPro[citation needed] and the MacMini is no alternative[citation needed] for ppl looking for a bit more muscle. Apple's desktop 'strategy' has lost its direction[citation needed], what with a new MacPro coming (or not(it is))? Pros need some planning space) and the iMac being a virtual design-zombie no even getting produced properly(that's fixed).

 

So, I had these (expected) poor sales will lead Apple into a better direction.

 

Why would they, when Apple knows exactly why they happened and has already fixed the problem? This is the better direction.


…they need a decent offer.

 

And when the Mac Pro is updated this year, they'll have decent offers for three machines.

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Originally Posted by asdasd

This is Appleinsider. It's all there for you but we can't do it for you.
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