First Look: Apple's iCloud data center site in Reno, Nevada - Page 2

Whatever it is, this is the case where Google (and Amazon) has done right.

Simple enough to solve (and your accusations that I didn't think of the consequences are ridiculous):

1. Apple would presumably not delete the space just because you wipe the device. I would suspect that they'd only drop the space only if the device was re-registered under a different account.

2. Apple would presumably send notice and a time delay before deleting anything. Tell the account owner - you have 30 days or we will delete the oldest data first.

3. Apple could leave the space in place indefinitely even if someone removes a device from the account and just not allow it to add space to a different account. That is, you get 5 GB for the first account that you ever connect the device to. Even if you move the device, the space stays with the original account.

There are plenty of ways around the problems.

Nice to see pro-business states offering incentives unlike anti-business Taxifornia.

It really depends on what kind of business you have. If you can do business in the middle of a desert, fine move there. Most businesses on the west and east coasts exist there because that is where the talent is and where their customers are. You might pay more tax but that is just the cost of doing business.

:sigh: I've already gone through those scenarios and the issues the introduce. You keep piling on without considering any of the downsides to what you propose. The simple truth is you're not thinking it through. Giving you space indefinitely every time you add an iCloud account to an iDevice? Come on!

I think what he is saying makes sense. It is simply like a grocery store rewards card. You buy a device, Apple gives you more storage. How they implement the authentication is irrelevant. I believe that even after you retire an iOS device or sell it you should still keep the added storage and the new owner/user of the retired device gets 5GB which is certainly not going to break the bank. The number of people who are going to try to game the system is probably about the same number as the jail breakers. Not enough to worry about. If they hack their way into more storage, Apple fixes it on the next update.

 

Of course it makes no difference to me because I have yet to use iCloud storage as it doesn't accept my file types.

So you get a new device and you can pass it around to unlimited people each singing in, signing out, and getting an additional 5GB of storage for a device they don't own?

I've already exploited this type of sign-in/sign-out feature with Dropbox at Apple Store Macs to get additional storage. That only works once per device and it has to be a device using a desktop OS. It also required a more complex setup than simply inputting a username and password into your iDevice.

It's simply not realistic to say it won't be exploited and that it's worth considering the pros and cons. The easiest solution I see is simply giving users more space.

Perhaps Apple will hire you to test whatever implementation they devise. It's just programming not brain surgery. I think Apple could easily do it if they wanted to. The small details of the back end are for the engineers to figure out. As a business model it makes some sense from a halo perspective. But, like I said, I don't bother using it even though they gave me 20GB for being a previous subscriber to MobileMe. I don't know what I would do with more storage.

I certainly think they could figure it out (as I've stated multiple times in this thread) but it logistics not programming that will be the issue, hence my reference to the MobileMe fiasco which was not thinking through the situation before they unleashed it.


PS: I have never used the 5GB and I back up all capable iDevices to iCloud, except for my iPhone 4 which is used for app testing, yet I know several that have backups that are much larger than mine. I'm not sure what they are backing up that I'm not but 5GB seems to be a bit limiting to many others. I wouldn't be surprised to see the service moved to a flat 10GB when they do make the move, not a complex setup of giving you data per device that can be recalled by logging out or given to anyone that signs in with some honour system. Here is my current usage.


Edited by SolipsismX - 3/10/13 at 11:19am

I should probably consider that too. Mine all have iCloud back up turned off. I looked at my storage just now and I have 24.81 of 25GB. Just my mail is being used and there isn't much of that. I almost never back up my iDevices although I do always back up my computer data to the data center or detachable storage. I just don't keep anything on iDevices that I can't re-download. I'll take a look at it when I get back to wifi. I don't want to use up my cell data right now.

There is some interesting history to be found in Virgina City!   I hilly reccomend a visit.    The whole area around Reno is in fact a gret vacation spot.   

You don't need to "visit" the billboards are massive and all over the place.    

Almost any worthwhile mail service wold scan data passing through the system for viruses and other maleware.    The place to do this is on the server and not your iOS device.    Anybody with even a slight understanding of how e-mail can be exploited to compromise a machine would welcome Apples attempts to filter out crap associated with maleware. 

 

Easy. They probably have Photostream on and have a lot of pictures/videos. That's the one thing I DON'T have set to backup as I like to manually go over what's on my phone and move the good stuff over to my home server and delete the rest

 

None of the 8 iPhones/iPads we have are anywhere near the 5GB limit. And both my wife and I have an iPhone/iPad that share the same 5GB iCloud account (so we can keep them synced) and they are still well below.

 

Perhaps people who run out could tell us what they have on their devices that uses so much data (esp considering Apps and music don't count).

 

Proof?  It's a given that Google makes money based on gathering data about their users, right?  Regardless of whether or not they "sell" it (semantics) externally, their business model, for many years now, depends on gathering personal data about their users.  I think everyone in the universe, including Google themselves agrees with that statement.  So what you're trying to say is that Apple is "just as bad", am I right?

 

I am living proof that they are not.  I use many (many) Apple products (laptops, desktops, servers, iDevices), and I have for many years, both personally and professionally.  And I guarantee you that they are not, have not, and will not ever make one thin dime off my personal data.  How can I guarantee that?  Because I don't give them any.  

 

I don't use .mac, iCloud, or any of Apple's online services, with the exception of the App Store, which you can use 100% anonymously via iTunes gift cards.

 

I don't buy their products over the internet, I buy them in retail outlets, where we can still use actual U.S. currency instead of fucking "plastic surveillance cards".

 

So regardless of privacy polices, data gathering policies, or any other policies, it is relatively easy to use Apple products without becoming their product in turn.  On the other hand, it is impossible to do this with Google products, merely because of the nature of hardware products vs. online service-based products.

 

Worse, when other people use Google services (or any number of other online social services), those products often take advantage of your relationships with friends, family and associates to access your personal information indirectly.  Merely being on the receiving end of email from a gmail user means that you are now attached to that user's social graph in Google's databases, and they scan through any communication sent to or from you and your friend. 

I don't give a shit about what Google, Apple or any other service provider does with other people's data, as long as I can opt out myself.  I can do that with Apple, and I cannot do that with Google.  There's your "proof".

That makes sense. I do have Photostream and never clean it out, but I'm also not fond of taking pictures so it's mostly images I find online or screenshots I've taken.

 

Apps do count, because iCloud does allow the user to back up data from certain apps that can be enabled for back up in the preferences. And certain apps do generate a lot of user data or allow for a lot of user data to be stored.

 

I have certain music apps that have many gigs of user data. I obviously have to disable them from being backed up as there is no room in my iCloud. There's no limit as to how much data I can store in those apps. A 128 GB iPad can easily be filled up I'm sure. Though, I'd imagine that the most common culprit is photostream, as videos can easily take up a ton of space. I have photostream disabled also.

You're not paying attention. What I suggested (and mstone concurred) is that Apple could simply give the 5 GB to the first person who registers a device - and then that person could keep it. Future users would not be entitled to the extra storage.

Surely you understand how Apple can track a device's serial number and know that it has been registered before.

 

That sounds like a good solution to me.

 

I'm not sure why certain people are trying to make this out to be some sort of super complicated issue.

This is getting ridiculous! You aren't even defining person or what registering means and yet you are claiming to have completely thought out every possibility. Is it who purchases the device so some grandmother gets 5GB for all her grandchildren? That makes sense to you? Is it the by singing up with an iCloud ID? So that means that if you have multiple IDs you can not get it to the proper account if you put it in out of order or the restore from a backup puts it in out of order? And what about the resale value of an iDevice that doesn't get the extra 5GB of permanent storage? Apple may not make direct profit from after-market sales but they do help prop up their ecosystem in many ways, which also includes users like me buying a high-end model knowing I can sell it for a considerably high price for CE a year later?

So now you have 5GB for every iOS-based iDevice you "register." What now? You get that every single time which means I'd have about 100GB of iCloud storage in 5 years? Do we really need an extra 10GB every year fro just buying an new iPhone and iPad? Seems excessive to me. How much do you use? Seriously, how much do you use?! Do you even know anyone that has purchased more?

How does that affect their decision? What about other things you clearly haven't thought despite statements to the contrary? Why not admit there are considerations to be made before making wild claim about " all they have to do is…" despite proof to the contrary and evidence that supports that jumping blindly into something without throughout consideration can ruin a brand.
Edited by SolipsismX - 3/10/13 at 3:21pm

What method are you using to opt out of your service-providers data gathering? 

I've not made anything complex. I pointed out some of the potential complexities that would need to addressed in a solution you proposed. You did! The simple solution is just to give users more space, not unlike how they've already dealt with MobileMe users by giving them an extra 20GB for an extra year.

I've not made anything complex. I pointed out some of the potential complexities that would need to addressed in a solution you proposed. You did! The simple solution is just to give users more space, not unlike how they've already dealt with MobileMe users by giving them an extra 20GB for an extra year.

I've not made anything complex. I pointed out some of the potential complexities that would need to addressed in a solution you proposed. You did! The simple solution is just to give users more space, not unlike how they've already dealt with MobileMe users by giving them an extra 20GB for an extra year.

But that would quadruple Apple's current storage needs and capacity. I don't want Apple to be wasting money and using unnecessary resources. There are a ton of iOS devices out there, and quadrupling the iCloud capacity for every person sounds like an enormous amount of data. And it still wouldn't give the person who has more than 4 iOS devices what they are entitled to.

 

You used an example of a grandmother and her grandchildren. The first iCloud address to be registered when registering a brand new device is the iCloud account that would be given 5 GB. This way, it would solve both the example that you gave, and it would also solve the problem that I have, and I would be able to get 5 GB added on to my iCloud account every time that I purchase a new iOS device.

 

You speak of potential complexities, and if there are any, then surely that is for Apple to figure out. But from my point of view, the current implementation is severely flawed, and I do hope that they are working on fixing it.

 

And here I was hoping you or KD might actually respond to the meat of the issue.  Although for all I know you understand and agree with the bulk of what I wrote above.  (?)    I often agree with big chunks of what you write, it's just that you twist the conversations around, ignoring the important bits, and that's bothersome.

 

As for your question, I will merely answer "a variety of proprietary and OSS tools", and leave it at that.  And no, I don't block or mask every last tidbit, but it's mostly under my control.  As it should be for everyone, but few people seem to care, and even less are technically capable.

I think it would be easy for Apple to add storage for a single user with multiple devices. When you get an iTunes account you get 5GB free. Every subsequent device you use the same store ID adds another 5GB to your "pool". The iCloud storage is therefore attached to the store account, not each individual device account. If you sell a device then it gets de-registered (just like de-authorizing a computer) and your storage drops by 5GB.

Frankly Apple's reason for giving 5gigs and selling more is very simple to understand.

Dropbox gives 2gigs. 5gigs is way more, plus you get perks like app code/resources don't count, photo stream doesn't count, music purchased can be redownloaded for free at any time. But beyond that, if you still need more than 5gigs, they sell you more. Why? Because that is Apple's model. If something has value it should be sold for a price that reflects that value. No monkey business, no sneaky stuff. 5gigs is competitive with Dropbox, and it's a good amount for a _lot_ of people. You want more? No problem it's just a small fee.

Will they eventually raise the free baseline? Probably. I don't see what everyone's big deal is about.

It doesn't happen all at once. It is used only as the user needs more storage. It gets automatically allocated as necessary up to the new limit, but I agree with your first assessment that if you own multiple devices you should get additional storage with each one. Even so, someone who owns multiple iOS devices can probably afford 5 cents a day for an additional 10GB of storage. By comparison Dropbox is 6 cents a day for the same amount of capacity although they sell theirs in 100GB units so if you just need a little bit more you might not want to pay $10/per month for 100GB. The upside for DB is that you can store whatever file type you want. And, just like Apple, DB reserves the right to look at your files and delete anything objectionable.

 

Edit: After a little searching and some rough calculations it looks like regular SATA 2TB WD Green hard drive costs around 5 cents per GB and probably costs a little less less than $20 per year to run and cool which doesn't include the data center building itself. MTBF is about 34 years but you could probably estimate that it would be replaced long before that. In either case it looks like both Apple and Dropbox are selling the storage for about break even.

Edited by mstone - 3/10/13 at 5:16pm

1) I actually suggested doubling, not quadrupling.

2) The lack objectivity is now clear. You feel entitled because you bought an iDevice but they don't owe anything over than what they promised you at the time of purchase. Don't get me wrong, it would be great to get extra storage (and for that storage to work like Dropbox) but they don't owe you anything so it's best to stop using that argument or we might start thinking you're a California, hippie, minority, liberal looking for a handout with a Hilary 2016 bumper sticker on your electric car.
Edited by SolipsismX - 3/11/13 at 6:18pm

I'm at 15.25GB on Dropbox. It's one of my favourite services. Besides sharing I use it for offsite backups of certain documents. What I think Apple really needs isn't to offer people more online backups for free for devices they've spent thousands of dollar on, but a reason to use iCloud in a more effective way that encourages users to want to buy more storage. I know of several people that have purchased more with Dropbox but none who have done so with iCloud. I suggest a more Dropbox-like usability with the new iOS update, but my desire is too strong to see how viable that would from their point or view.

 

Hahahahaha!

 

QFT

Yeah except if they are driving an electric car, they are probably already in a high tax bracket so they are most likely not looking for hand out for themselves but advocating better social services for the less fortunate. But it does bring up an interesting side effect to owning electric cars. Those people do not pay any taxes for road maintenance which comes out of the gasoline tax. So as a larger proportion of autos are electric expect the gas taxes to increase as well as DMV registration and electricity costs.

1) I was trying to be funny.

2) Shhhh! I don't want Apple ][ having another reason to dump on the "liberal agenda."

I thought it was 'Hilaryous'. I was trying think of how I could make that whole thought into a bumper sticker. 

 

I can assure you that I definitely don't want anybody to mistake me for being such a person as you described, as I honestly would rather be dead.

 

I am merely stating that I believe that Apple's current system is flawed. I am certainly not looking for any handouts, as I could always use the method previously mentioned in this thread, and just sign up for a bunch of different iCloud accounts, granting me a whole bunch of extra gigs, if I so desired.

That really was an honest question. I wasn't aware of any opt-outs for Verizon, ATT etc, but shouldn't there be? Perhaps there's other methods as you've hinted at. I only asked about service providers as you brought them up yourself and noting opt-out.

 

And yes I do often agree with what you post, and have said so before.

I really wish you'd listen rather than continuing to make the same complaints.

That was only one scenario. The one that I preferred and which both mstone and I have explained to you is this:
Every time you buy a new iDevice, you get 5 GB added to your iCloud account if/when you register the device. Once you've registered the device, that 5 GB stays with the account no matter what you do to the iDevice. You could sell it, burn it, wipe it, or flush it down the toilet and the 5 GB remains on the iCloud account where the device was originally registered. So there's no need for any of your silly 'what if' scenarios. When you buy a device, you get the 5 GB - permanently.

None of the problems you envision would occur under that scenario. For there to be a problem, someone would have to either be able to hack Apple's servers to re-register a device that was previously registered or else create a fake device serial number that would get past Apple. If they can do either of those things, my scenario doesn't make it any worse.

I can't restate in yet another way what I've already made as crystal clear as I can make them. You're either willfully being obtuse or you're your too ignorant to see what is painfully lacking from your definition of "register."

 

Well where there's a will to tax, there's a way, and in at least some states it's not likely to work out even as "nicely" as you suggest above.  The talk is of moving to a "mileage tax", where electric cars pay tax based on how many miles you drive.  http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/01/03/237258/oregon-lawmakers-propose-mileage-tax-on-fuel-efficient-vehicles

 

In Texas, Washington and Oregon (among other states), they would like to implement this by installing a monitorable GPS in your car! http://techblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/03/texas-among-states-considering.html

As the Dallas News writer says: "I mean, are we really even having a debate about real-time tracking of electric cars?  Because if we are, I'll drive a gas guzzler until the day I die."  Which I hope is not the intent of this new proposed legislation; we need more electric cars replacing gas-guzzlers, not less!  But it's worth reading his take on it.  If anyone thinks we're not headed for Big Brother ville, it's time to pull your heads out of the sand.  It doesn't get much more invasive than monitoring your car 24/7/365.  You can bet the insurance companies are licking their chops over the possibility to monitor your location and speed 24/7 as well.

 

The GPS trackers are already being tested in Oregon (http://www.opb.org/news/article/n3-washington-oregon-consider-mileage-based-road-tax/) , so this is not as far-fetched as some might think.