or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › French Apple Stores prohibited from making employees work after hours, fined 10K euros
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

French Apple Stores prohibited from making employees work after hours, fined 10K euros

post #1 of 79
Thread Starter 
Seven Apple Stores in France can no longer force employees to work after doors close, as a Paris court has banned the company from such activity following complaints from labor unions.

Louvre Apple Store
The Apple Store Carr? S?nart. | Source: Apple


The French language report from AFP, first spotted by The Verge, also notes that Apple must pay 10,000 euros, roughly $13,000, in damages to the workers' unions, while an additional 50,000 euro, or $65,000, fine will be levied for every subsequent violation.

French law states that night work, defined as the hours between 9 p.m. and 6 a.m., is reserved for exceptional cases only and must thus be justified. While Apple Retail outlets shutter their doors at 9 p.m., it was common for employees to continue working for an additional two hours to cleanup and prepare for the next day. For its part, the company said that after hours work was unusual and denied any wrongdoing.

Apple Stores affected by the judgment include the following locations: l'Op?ra in Paris, Parly 2 in Le Chesnay, Carr? S?nart in Lieusaint, Val d'Europe in Marne-la-Vallee, Cape Town 3000 in Nice, and Atlantis in Saint Herblain.

A further ruling from a higher French court is expected to be handed down on April 16.
post #2 of 79

It won't be long before France bans working altogether. Beautiful country. Terribly screwed up labor laws.

post #3 of 79

Easy fix - store business hours are now 7 am to 8 pm - and employees still work 6 to 9. And then the consumers rage about how inconvenient the hours are.

 

Reminds me of the behinds the scenes footage from a TV show that was filmed part of each season in France - any of the local workers operating cameras etc would simply stop working at (either 5 pm or 6 pm, can't recall which it was) regardless of where they were in the production schedule and impending deadlines. 

 

Also movies filmed there - for a night scene it is easy to black out the windows in a building or hang tarps in an outdoor setting to simulate night than to get a film crew to actually film at night. 

 

And they call American's lazy - not that there aren't bums likely everywhere - but everyone I know works their ass off. 

post #4 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The Apple Store Carr? S?nart.

Mon Dieu!
I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
Reply
I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
Reply
post #5 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimothy View Post

It won't be long before France bans working altogether. Beautiful country. Terribly screwed up labor laws.

No kidding.  Retail has certain things that employees have to do before and after the doors are open to allow customers to walk in.  Retail is demanding on employees from a hourly perspective which is why many pay by the hour.  But if they are a salaried employee, then expect certain hours and that may include working before and/or after the doors are open for the public.  It may be cleaning up and setting up, rearranging the floor, back stock, etc.  Most retail stores don't like rearranging the floor while open for business since it detracts from helping the customer.

 

France does have a screwed up labor law.

post #6 of 79

In the same way that China and some other 3rd world countries give too much power to corporations and don't have good labor laws, France is an example of when labor unions have too much power.

 

There is always this never ending struggle between two sides on lots of issues where there is no limit to how far one side will go.  No common sense, no empathy for the other side, no concept of being content, you always need more for your side.  Sometimes the struggle produces a good split for each party, but often not.  But there are many people that believe that the 'market' with selfish producers and selfish consumers will somehow magically find a balance.

post #7 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguy911 View Post

In the same way that China and some other 3rd world countries give too much power to corporations and don't have good labor laws, France is an example of when labor unions have too much power.

There is always this never ending struggle between two sides on lots of issues where there is no limit to how far one side will go.  No common sense, no empathy for the other side, no concept of being content, you always need more for your side.  Sometimes the struggle produces a good split for each party, but often not.  But there are many people that believe that the 'market' with selfish producers and selfish consumers will somehow magically find a balance.

You just summed up human behavior in general, perfectly.
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
"Google doesn't sell you anything, they just sell you!"
Reply
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
"Google doesn't sell you anything, they just sell you!"
Reply
post #8 of 79
It would be preferable if commenters would refrain from making derogatory statements about France unless they have direct experience in the country. I live and work in France, and though labor relations can at times be strained, they are not necessarily more so than in many other countries. What is worth noting here is that Apple must apply French law to their store employees working in France, and if they don't they run afoul of it.

All international employment law is complicated, and Apple is not particularly known for internationalizing its operations, rather trying to export Californian business practices to the rest of the world.

I wouldn't extrapolate too much from this judgement; Apple France must be more careful in its scheduling, or justify the hours requested of employees in advance.
post #9 of 79
Wow, how dare another culture not want to live by our consumer culture's rules? At least France still has a middle class and in turn a labor unions unlike the USA. To each his/her own but from my time spent in France I notice a country that takes time to enjoy the best things in life many of which you cannot buy in an Apple store. People do not shop because they have no other interest or shop because they think it is an fun activity like in this county. It works for them so I have no problem with them deciding how their society works.
post #10 of 79

Bit weird to classify night work as exceptional, but whatever, it's easily resolvable with some simple shift management.  Employ some people on an 'exceptional' basis to come in 9-11pm to do clean up and prep.  Regular floor staff get to go home on time and everyone's happy.  It'd create some more low wage unemployment when there's a current dearth of it.

 

Surprised at Apple's willingness to let this kind of stuff go to court when they're clearly bashing up against local laws and they could just make some simple modifications.

 

And the army just rails against the French laws, as if Apple is above them, or has any hope of changing them.  They aren't and they don't.

censored

Reply

censored

Reply
post #11 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptoolan View Post

What is worth noting here is that Apple must apply French law to their store employees working in France, and if they don't they run afoul of it.

 

Yes, that was the point of the article.

 

What people are reacting too is the nature of those labour laws.

 

One poster had it right. Apple just needs to close the stores earlier. Or, could they make the morning shift come in two hours earlier? Is the morning considered night?

TechnoMinds

We are a Montreal based technology company that offers a variety of tech services such as tech support for Apple products, Drupal based website development, computer training and iCloud...

Reply

TechnoMinds

We are a Montreal based technology company that offers a variety of tech services such as tech support for Apple products, Drupal based website development, computer training and iCloud...

Reply
post #12 of 79
It looks like the normal hours are 9 AM to 8 or 9 PM (http://www.apple.com/fr/retail/opera/) so they could probably just do the clean up and preparation in the morning before the store opens and avoid any trouble.
post #13 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryb View Post

the best things in life many of which you cannot buy in an Apple store.

 

Probably the most intelligent and profound comment uttered on AI in several years.

post #14 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimothy View Post

It won't be long before France bans working altogether. Beautiful country. Terribly screwed up labor laws.

 

 

That is a matter of perspective. I don't know about this particular law, but on a whole I'd say the French get a lot of things right. Unlike in the US where corporate interests rule the day, in France people actual have a say in their government. 

post #15 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

 

 

And they call American's lazy - not that there aren't bums likely everywhere - but everyone I know works their ass off. 

 

Perhaps the French people recognize there are things more important in life then just work?

post #16 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryb View Post

Wow, how dare another culture not want to live by our consumer culture's rules? At least France still has a middle class and in turn a labor unions unlike the USA. To each his/her own but from my time spent in France I notice a country that takes time to enjoy the best things in life many of which you cannot buy in an Apple store. People do not shop because they have no other interest or shop because they think it is an fun activity like in this county. It works for them so I have no problem with them deciding how their society works.

 

 

Well said. 

post #17 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimothy View Post

It won't be long before France bans working altogether. Beautiful country. Terribly screwed up labor laws.

Yeah! Them workers need a lesson from the American South! Workers demanding a decent way of life? But what about OUR PRODUCTS?!?
post #18 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

No kidding.  Retail has certain things that employees have to do before and after the doors are open to allow customers to walk in.  Retail is demanding on employees from a hourly perspective which is why many pay by the hour.  But if they are a salaried employee, then expect certain hours and that may include working before and/or after the doors are open for the public.  It may be cleaning up and setting up, rearranging the floor, back stock, etc.  Most retail stores don't like rearranging the floor while open for business since it detracts from helping the customer.

 

France does have a screwed up labor law.

 

 

Perhaps you prefer the labor law of a Country like China. In France people actually have a say in their government, as opposed to just the big companies. Apple isn't being forced to abide by any rule everybody else doesn't have to abide by. It can easily avoid the mess by either closing an hour earlier, or having the employees come in an hour earlier. Further, if Apple needs employees to come in after closing for a special reason (e.g. new promotion), it can do so. In the US labor law is moving more in the direction of China, I'd rather see it move more in the direction of France. 

post #19 of 79

Fortunately not all businesses are operated that way!     Ethical behavior from both sides can lead to acceptable conditions for both sides.     The reality is many businesses find it easier to be ethical than to have to deal with some of the more destructive labor unions.  

 

On the flip side not all labor unions are bad.   Many industries are at their most effcient when well runned unions are in the mix.  

 

In the end I agree with you only partially, there can be or are examples of behavior much like you describe.    More enlightened people though seem to have risen above the take no prisoners mentality to realize that rational behavior get you much further. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by techguy911 View Post

In the same way that China and some other 3rd world countries give too much power to corporations and don't have good labor laws, France is an example of when labor unions have too much power.

 

There is always this never ending struggle between two sides on lots of issues where there is no limit to how far one side will go.  No common sense, no empathy for the other side, no concept of being content, you always need more for your side.  Sometimes the struggle produces a good split for each party, but often not.  But there are many people that believe that the 'market' with selfish producers and selfish consumers will somehow magically find a balance.

post #20 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

Easy fix - store business hours are now 7 am to 8 pm - and employees still work 6 to 9. And then the consumers rage about how inconvenient the hours are.

Reminds me of the behinds the scenes footage from a TV show that was filmed part of each season in France - any of the local workers operating cameras etc would simply stop working at (either 5 pm or 6 pm, can't recall which it was) regardless of where they were in the production schedule and impending deadlines. 

Also movies filmed there - for a night scene it is easy to black out the windows in a building or hang tarps in an outdoor setting to simulate night than to get a film crew to actually film at night. 

And they call American's lazy - not that there aren't bums likely everywhere - but everyone I know works their ass off. 

It's not that hard to turn day into night. If you ever watched 40 days and 40 nights then you've seen night looking scenes that were filmed in broad daylight.

This has nothing to do with laziness. Lazy is not wanting to work at all. I see nothing wrong with laws protecting quality of life. I'm sure the French are used to shopping within certain hours so if the store closes a little earlier than they won't be surprised.
Edited by dasanman69 - 3/13/13 at 7:19am
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #21 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

And they call American's lazy - not that there aren't bums likely everywhere - but everyone I know works their ass off. 

This has nothing to do with laziness. It's that the culture recognizes that there's a massive difference between employment and living. There's no such distinction in the USA. In the USA, we're expected to live to work (at ridiculously poor wages). If you have a problem with the inhuman system in the USA, propaganda labels you as "lazy" so as to discourage others from agreeing that conditions (workplace stress and worker abuse) and pay suck.
post #22 of 79

It would be completely asinine for the US to move in the direction of France!    Businesses are leaving France right and left because of issues like this.   More so there is zero interest in investment in French businesses.    

 

As to the US what makes you think we are moving in the direction of China.   There certainly is a movement afloat to truncate the power of irresponsible unions which is a good thing.   That hasn't made unions illegal by any means though.    The fact is many unions have already learned their lesson and have cleaned up their acts.   

 

Case in point about unions:  in the late seventies I went to the state fair and happened to step into a pavilion with many unions setup to recruit new members.   The most obvious and glaring thing that I saw was the flash of money.   That is the reps grossly over dressed for a state fair and the cars they where driving.   I don't think there was a car that went for less than $100,000 in their parking lot.   It was pretty clear that the leadership thought the unions where all about me and what "I" can take from the union members and the companies my members work for.   It wasn't like they even tried to hide their motivations, they where clearly leeches.   

 

Decades later I had a talk with a member of one of those unions where he freely admitted to the problems in the past.   The membership managed to correct the issue and frankly they are doing well now.    It says a lot about absolute power and the corruption that can lead too.   So when you sit there saying you want to see the US become more like France what you are really saying is that you want to see more corruption and other ignorance.   Nothing you said really justifies going in that direction.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

 

 

Perhaps you prefer the labor law of a Country like China. In France people actually have a say in their government, as opposed to just the big companies. Apple isn't being forced to abide by any rule everybody else doesn't have to abide by. It can easily avoid the mess by either closing an hour earlier, or having the employees come in an hour earlier. Further, if Apple needs employees to come in after closing for a special reason (e.g. new promotion), it can do so. In the US labor law is moving more in the direction of China, I'd rather see it move more in the direction of France. 

post #23 of 79

This idea that we as a people don't have a say in our government is asinine.   Just look at the grass root efforts to undermine the stupidity coming from Washington these days.    

 

Consider this, in how many countries can an individual sit down and have a conversation with the equivalent of a congressman or senator?   You as an individual can have an impact.   Obviously if your opinion comes from left field you might not be the influence you like to be but that is because our leaders are elected to represent the people that elected them.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

 

 

That is a matter of perspective. I don't know about this particular law, but on a whole I'd say the French get a lot of things right. Unlike in the US where corporate interests rule the day, in France people actual have a say in their government. 

post #24 of 79
It is a bit more complex than reported.

The thing is, labor laws distinguish between night shift and normal work hours. Apple could have volunteer people working an evening shift behind closed doors, but they cant *force* the regular staff to do it on a regular basis and they would have to pay increased wages too (about 20% more/hour but that changes with the number of hours on night shift,).

More, retail sector is constrained on how they can work outside normal hours, and they need a prior agreement from the unions and prefecture they obviously did not had. It is the same for sunday work.
post #25 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptoolan View Post

It would be preferable if commenters would refrain from making derogatory statements about France
There have been no "derogatory" statements posted.
Quote:
unless they have direct experience in the country.
So you are okay with derogatory statements as long as we know it to be true?
Quote:
rather trying to export Californian business practices to the rest of the world.
So they don't clean up after hours in France? I can see that.
Quote:
I wouldn't extrapolate too much from this judgement;
I agree. You should not extrapolate too much either.
Edited by Chris_CA - 3/13/13 at 7:33am
post #26 of 79

Or maybe they are just lazy?    

 

Seriously, people for some reason find it objectionable to work past 9 PM when that offer so many opportunities for individuals to pursue their personal objectives.   For a period of my life I worked the evening shift and let me tell you it has some significant advantages.   Here are just a few:

  1. The ability to take care of personal business without incurring lost time at work.
  2. The ability to get out and enjoy the day with the sun high in the sky!!   You can do this everyday instead of on just the weekends.  
  3. You can pay half price at the movie theater and have the place to yourself.   
  4. Lots of single woman out and about 😜
  5. Your work day is usually focused on working instead of the distractions that the management team often imposes on the work force.  In other words your work day can often be glitch free. 
  6. No problems with traffic on the ride in or out.   All the traffic jams are going in the opposite direction.  
  7. Shift differential😃

 

That is off the top of my head, there are likely many other good points to be had.  You are right that there are things more important than work, the thing is these things are often more accessible if you are on something other than the 9-5 schedule.  Admittedly some people are so constipated that they can never allow themselves to see the positives in such schedules but many people do work "odd" hours because they prefer the hours.  Why?  Simple it allows them to enjoy life on their terms and not the regiment that the 9-5 crowd experiences.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

 

Perhaps the French people recognize there are things more important in life then just work?

post #27 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

It would be completely asinine for the US to move in the direction of France!    Businesses are leaving France right and left because of issues like this.   More so there is zero interest in investment in French businesses.    

As to the US what makes you think we are moving in the direction of China.   There certainly is a movement afloat to truncate the power of irresponsible unions which is a good thing.   That hasn't made unions illegal by any means though.    The fact is many unions have already learned their lesson and have cleaned up their acts.   

Case in point about unions:  in the late seventies I went to the state fair and happened to step into a pavilion with many unions setup to recruit new members.   The most obvious and glaring thing that I saw was the flash of money.   That is the reps grossly over dressed for a state fair and the cars they where driving.   I don't think there was a car that went for less than $100,000 in their parking lot.   It was pretty clear that the leadership thought the unions where all about me and what "I" can take from the union members and the companies my members work for.   It wasn't like they even tried to hide their motivations, they where clearly leeches.   

Decades later I had a talk with a member of one of those unions where he freely admitted to the problems in the past.   The membership managed to correct the issue and frankly they are doing well now.    It says a lot about absolute power and the corruption that can lead too.   So when you sit there saying you want to see the US become more like France what you are really saying is that you want to see more corruption and other ignorance.   Nothing you said really justifies going in that direction.  

I rather like how it's done in Germany where the president of the union sits on the board of directors. He/she knows how well or how poorly the company is really doing, and adjusts their demands or concessions accordingly. A us against them attitude is not beneficial to anyone.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #28 of 79

His statements puzzled me also.   I've read the thread since post number one and did not see anything even remotely derogatory.    Lots of facts have been expressed especially abut the work ethic of the French, sometimes the truth hurts.   In any event comments about the work ethic of the French  can not be seen as derogatory as they are fact and have been repeatedly documented in the press.   Derogatory would be like saying that the people in France should just take a bath and stop stinking up the country or something to that extent.   I've seen nothing like that posted here so I'm not sure what the problem is.

 

As for extrapolating from the judgement I think it highlights the general corruption that is seen in France and to a far lesser extent in Europe in general.     I'm not so much talking about the type of corruption that involves the passing of money as I'm talking about the corruption of a peoples value system.   Effectively France is a welfare state where the vast majority of the residents don't really want to work.   

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post


There have been no "derogatory" statements posted.
So you are okay with derogatory statements as long as we know it to be true?
So they don't clean up after hours in France? I can see that.
[quoteI wouldn't extrapolate too much from this judgement;[/quote]
I agree. You should not extrapolate too much either.
post #29 of 79

That is one approach that makes sense.   Although I believe that it is possible to manage some companies in such a way that unions aren't even needed. On the flip side some industries thrive on their relationship with unions.  In the end I think the big issue is that we need to stay away from mandated approaches to how employee and employer relationships are handled since no approach is perfect.   

 

The classic example is a company managed by a bunch of idiots that needs a strong union to enforce labor and safety standards.   Which brings to mind this; for every personality there is a counter or opposite that counteracts that personality.   Companies have personalities just like people do.   This is something people don't grasp, they may have been involved with a company with a difficult personality for most of their lives and thus think that every company is just like the one they spent much of their life at.   The reality is far different, businesses can very widely in their approach to employee relationships.   

 

At least in this country they can and frankly that is a good thing.   In France you have just the opposite, a homogenized set of practice that try to fit one sets of standards onto everybody and the corporations they work for.   That is very destructive and oppressive.   

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


I rather like how it's done in Germany where the president of the union sits on the board of directors. He/she knows how well or how poorly the company is really doing, and adjusts their demands or concessions accordingly. A us against them attitude is not beneficial to anyone.
post #30 of 79
Why not just clean from the previous day in the morning? They could still open the store as early as 8am (6am-8am is not "night work").
post #31 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by liuping View Post

Why not just clean from the previous day in the morning? They could still open the store as early as 8am (6am-8am is not "night work").

That makes too much sense.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #32 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by tougasempai View Post

It looks like the normal hours are 9 AM to 8 or 9 PM (http://www.apple.com/fr/retail/opera/) so they could probably just do the clean up and preparation in the morning before the store opens and avoid any trouble.

 

That's reasonable, but they will still have to close earlier. If the government fines them 65,000 euros for an employee is still on the premises at 9:01 then closing at 9:00 won't work. They will have to allow at least half an hour to shoo the employees out to avoid the fine.

post #33 of 79

The problem is not with night hours. After all, here in France, as well as in any decent country in the world, there are people like doctors, fire brigades, transportation personnel (trains, buses, planes…), and so on that work from 9 pm to 6 am. But it has to be specified on the work contract when you sign in, and night hours are overpaid and give you extra days off. What is illegal is to force somebody to work after 9 pm if this is not explicitly mentioned at start (i.e. without his prior formal consent).

 

After all, as somebody pointed out, here in Paris we got other things to do after 9 pm. If you guys don’t get a life outside your office, that’s your business, so to speak – and if you are crazy enough to give away extra time to your company without any compensation, too bad for you, and too good for your bosses and shareholders…

 

Somehow, working conditions and schedules have to be defined and enforced by law, otherwise it is called slavery. It is very surprising to me – looking to the US from the other shore of the Atlantic – how some Americans deal with work, up to the point of nearly enslaving themselves; but that’s a very clever victory of both U.S. politicians and bosses alike to have been able to nail down into workers’ minds that they should accept whatever ludicrous conditions were imposed on them. Already in the seventeenth century, a French author had written on this: La Boetie, "Discours sur la servitude volontaire".

 

Have fun guys!

 

PS: remember English is not my mother language!


Edited by EauVive - 3/13/13 at 8:47am
Predictions are perilous, especially about future. Niels Bohr
Reply
Predictions are perilous, especially about future. Niels Bohr
Reply
post #34 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

Bit weird to classify night work as exceptional, but whatever, it's easily resolvable with some simple shift management.  Employ some people on an 'exceptional' basis to come in 9-11pm to do clean up and prep.  Regular floor staff get to go home on time and everyone's happy.  It'd create some more low wage unemployment when there's a current dearth of it.

 

They can't. The law is nothing between 9pm and 6 am. There would be a cleaners union suing to enforce it. Because every night is not exceptional.  They might be able to clear that for major change outs like during a launch but otherwise the only legal thing they can do is either all visuals work during day with store open for business or shut down for day. And for cleaning etc either with customers in store or change store hours to like 9am to 7 pm. 

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

Reply

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

Reply
post #35 of 79
Quote:
This has nothing to do with laziness. Lazy is not wanting to work at all. I see nothing wrong with laws protecting quality of life. I'm sure the French are used to shopping within certain hours so if the store closes a little earlier than they won't be surprised.
 

 

 
This. Stores opened at night are pretty uncommon and need special derogations. Medium malls' stores are rarely open after 8:30 pm and big ones may be open until 10:00 pm during summer time (and long days). A few exceptions are food stores and restaurants.
 
I can confirm that french citizens usually don't see the need to have computer and hi-tech stores be open at night. Those schedules were more probably aimed at Apple Stores' non-french customers.
 
And I never heard of laws forbidding movie makers to film during night hours in France… despite having worked in this field for several years.
post #36 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by EauVive View Post

If you guys don’t get a life outside your office...

if you are crazy enough to give away extra time to your company without any compensation...

how some Americans deal with work, up to the point of nearly enslaving themselves...

 

Wow. Just wow.

 

US bashing is clearly in vogue with some. Do you really believe we are all slaves working for nothing 24 hours a day? Or was that just a troll?

post #37 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

They can't. The law is nothing between 9pm and 6 am. There would be a cleaners union suing to enforce it. Because every night is not exceptional.  They might be able to clear that for major change outs like during a launch but otherwise the only legal thing they can do is either all visuals work during day with store open for business or shut down for day. And for cleaning etc either with customers in store or change store hours to like 9am to 7 pm. 

Wrong. There is no law forbidding staff members to work at any time during night. It is pretty common among cleaning companies in France.

What's forbidden is to push night hours on your staff without their prior consent (contractual), without paying these hours with a bonus and to reach above a given amount of daily hours. (10 worked hours a day is the law). Apple can have staff working at their store all night long by using shifts…

 

I am not so sure about derogations allowing Apple to have their stores open at night since they are neither food shops, restaurants or emergency services…

 

Personally, I find this "any store should be open at night" policy pretty stupid and weakening quality of life without much benefits to the customers. 

post #38 of 79

Success is punished in France.

 

If I were Apple, I'd be careful about expanding any more in that sort of country.

 

France gets two thumbs down from me.

post #39 of 79
lilgto64 seems to misunderstand the actual operating hours of the Paris Opera Apple Store. According to the Apple web site, they are open M-W 9 am to 8 pm, Th-Sa 9-9, and closed on Sundays.

The 9 pm to 6 am stretch is night shift work under French law. So, if on Thursdays, everyone goes home at 9, none of your day shift workers are working during the night hours. And, if everyone goes home on Tuesdays one hour after the store closes, again no problem.

By his thought, yeah, the store could have people come in at 7 am to prep the store for those 9 am shoppers.

My understanding is that under French law, you can have day shift people work during night shift hours under exceptional circumstances. It has to be something unusual, not "we need to get the store tidy for tomorrow."
post #40 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Or maybe they are just lazy?    

Seriously, people for some reason find it objectionable to work past 9 PM when that offer so many opportunities for individuals to pursue their personal objectives.   For a period of my life I worked the evening shift and let me tell you it has some significant advantages.   Here are just a few:
  1. The ability to take care of personal business without incurring lost time at work.
  2. The ability to get out and enjoy the day with the sun high in the sky!!   You can do this everyday instead of on just the weekends.  
  3. You can pay half price at the movie theater and have the place to yourself.   
  4. Lots of single woman out and about 😜
  5. Your work day is usually focused on working instead of the distractions that the management team often imposes on the work force.  In other words your work day can often be glitch free. 
  6. No problems with traffic on the ride in or out.   All the traffic jams are going in the opposite direction.  
  7. Shift differential😃

That is off the top of my head, there are likely many other good points to be had.  You are right that there are things more important than work, the thing is these things are often more accessible if you are on something other than the 9-5 schedule.  Admittedly some people are so constipated that they can never allow themselves to see the positives in such schedules but many people do work "odd" hours because they prefer the hours.  Why?  Simple it allows them to enjoy life on their terms and not the regiment that the 9-5 crowd experiences.  

I used to work a 9-5:30pm M-F, and then a double-shift weekend job from 3pm Saturday afternoon to 7am Sunday morning and then 3pm Sunday afternoon to 7am Monday morning, which my weekday job starting just two hours later. Leaving work Monday evening after 24 hours of work in the span of 26.5 hours was my weekend. That nine 8 hour shifts per week which comes out to 72 hours per week. I did that routine for 6 months. I didn't go out as I had no time nor energy but I saved a lot of money. It was the start of my investing and ability to retire by 30yo (which I'm now no longer doing as found retirement boring).

It was rough but I wouldn't do it differently if I had the choice. It was the first time I felt like an adult, the first time I felt I was finally taking responsibility for my own future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by liuping View Post

Why not just clean from the previous day in the morning? They could still open the store as early as 8am (6am-8am is not "night work").

Sure, that's what will probably happen, along with some cleaning in the evening as they need to get everyone clocked out and out the door at 9pm which may mean actually starting to lock the doors at 8:45-8:50pm to make this work. Perhaps even earlier to make sure there are no customers dillydallying that will cost them another fine as any last minute sales will still need to be accounted for, which usually takes place that evening, not the day after, unless the store managers are on salary and can bypass what I think are ridiculous laws.

One issue I see with the early morning cleanup is that it may be more costly for Apple and/or inconvenient for employees. Allow me to present a couple scenarios. If you close at 9pm you may still have a decent staff remaining to expedite cleaning and preparing for next day, but at 6am I think it's highly likely you'll have less people. That would mean they would need more time so if you have to also get manager in there you are getting one higher paid employee to essentially be in a closed store with fewer lower-paid employees. They could also have the same number of people come in in the morning for a split shift that falls within 6am to 9pm hours. I'm guessing that is allowed by these unions.
Edited by SolipsismX - 3/13/13 at 11:16am

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

Reply

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › French Apple Stores prohibited from making employees work after hours, fined 10K euros