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French Apple Stores prohibited from making employees work after hours, fined 10K euros - Page 2

post #41 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnD62 View Post

lilgto64 seems to misunderstand the actual operating hours of the Paris Opera Apple Store. According to the Apple web site, they are open M-W 9 am to 8 pm, Th-Sa 9-9, and closed on Sundays.

The 9 pm to 6 am stretch is night shift work under French law. So, if on Thursdays, everyone goes home at 9, none of your day shift workers are working during the night hours. And, if everyone goes home on Tuesdays one hour after the store closes, again no problem.

By his thought, yeah, the store could have people come in at 7 am to prep the store for those 9 am shoppers.

My understanding is that under French law, you can have day shift people work during night shift hours under exceptional circumstances. It has to be something unusual, not "we need to get the store tidy for tomorrow."

I also hadn't realized the store already closes at 8pm. That goes along with my earlier comment. I think an hour of clean up and preparation in the evening shouldn't be an issue.

I do wonder how horrible it must be to live in a country where things aren't commonly open at night. Can you leave work at 9pm and still get to a pharmacy or grocery store?

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post #42 of 79

Apple simply needs to make sure it's complying with EU and French laws.  First they're not providing the amount of free warranty the law requires, then not informing consumers of their right, now they're not complying with French labour laws. 

 

As has been said before, French laws do allow for employees to work after 9 p.m., but certain conditions need to be met. 

 

Apple isn't above the law, and France isn't above punishing corporations, no matter how big...

post #43 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I also hadn't realized the store already closes at 8pm. That goes along with my earlier comment. I think an hour of clean up and preparation in the evening shouldn't be an issue.

I do wonder how horrible it must be to live in a country where things aren't commonly open at night. Can you leave work at 9pm and still get to a pharmacy or grocery store?

 

Please, plenty of stores in France are open at night.  Many restaurants, bars and pubs are too.  It's actually a very nice place, just learn a few French phrases and don't be an ugly tourist...

post #44 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

Please, plenty of stores in France are open at night.  Many restaurants, bars and pubs are too.  It's actually a very nice place, just learn a few French phrases and don't be an ugly tourist...

You say plenty of stores but then follow it up with restaurants, bars and pubs. Quoi? What exactly are these labor laws if a retail shop is being fined for its employees working past 9pm? They were still paying their employees, right? And if a retail shop can't get around them why would I think that other stores can?

I've been all over France. For the most part the people were nice but I must say that the locals in Paris seem to dislike any outsiders more than any other country or city I've been to which I find odd since tourism is an amazing boon for the Paris and French economy.


PS: I always end up missing the states when I travel. I do like that so many places are opened around the clock..

PPS: With French unemployment nearing 11% I wonder if offering more hours and more jobs wouldn't be such a bad thing for the French people.
Edited by SolipsismX - 3/13/13 at 11:42am

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post #45 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyPaul View Post

 

Wow. Just wow.

 

US bashing is clearly in vogue with some. Do you really believe we are all slaves working for nothing 24 hours a day? Or was that just a troll?

I’m not bashing the US. Every country has its pros and cons. Presently, the cons for me overweight the pros, so I wouldn’t move in the US, but I have no special hate or antipathy against America. Under democracy, every folk more or less gets the laws it deserves.

 

But I can’t believe there are some people out here are supporting Apple in this affair. Look: this is a company that refuses to pay shift hours to a handful of retail employees while it has more than $94 billion dollars in cash, its former CEO was rich enough to buy itself a private jet and a yacht, its director staff earns maybe tens of thousands of dollars a month. Worse: this company uses every possible trick to avoid paying taxes in the US (and then the California state is on the verge of bankruptcy, has to cut deeply in major public budgets like education, and eventually you get your stupid fiscal cliff…). And some call this ‘success’, ‘normality’ or ‘honesty’? Are they kidding? Who are they advocating?


Edited by EauVive - 3/13/13 at 11:54am
post #46 of 79

Yeah, let's just blame unions and the French.  The fact is that employers are routinely abusing their workforce because they know they can get away with demanding more and more and more without paying.

 

It sounds to me the managers were pushing the envelope and got whipped back.

 

Totally fine by me.  Wish this wasn't just happening in France but here in Canada as well, where employers are NOTORIOUS slave drivers who whine bitch and find any way to not pay (including getting gobs of money from both the province and Ottawa for "training purposes").  Labour laws in this province are actually worse than most of Mexico...

 

I bet the comments here would be different if this article was about Walmart stores.


Edited by patrickwalker - 3/13/13 at 11:51am
post #47 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickwalker View Post

Yeah, let's just blame unions and the French.  The fact is that employers are routinely abusing their workforce because they know they can get away with demanding more and more and more without paying.

It sounds to me the managers were pushing the envelope and get whipped back.

If they aren't paying them that's a different thing than the article stated with being fined because employees worked past 9pm. If they are breaking the law then appropriate fines should also be had but I question if the labor laws are not making it harder to the French people to earn money by disallowing an Apple store to be have staff past 9pm. Aren't there people needing jobs that wouldn't mind the opportunity to work at a 24 hours Apple Store in Paris?

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #48 of 79

France is also somewhat unique in that workers are either classified as contract or non-contract.  I'm expecting that Apple managers were trying to pull a quick one by violating either form by insinuating to it's employees "work these extra hours or else we'll replace you with someone who will."  If it was occasional, I bet most of the employees subjected to this wouldn't have much of a complaint since they got a little extra cash once and a while.  But when it suddenly becomes an expectation that they stay, that's another matter.

 

This is an assumption on my part but I think that's probably what's going on.  Someone complained, obviously.  Apple managers pushed and squeezed but just went too far.

 

One can play the speculation game even further.  Maybe other Apple employees were upset that a favoured employee was being given more hours by the manager and they got upset over it.

post #49 of 79
Each country ha sits own ways, just like each family, each person has their own beliefs. Some countries put culture, traditions and human interest before other interests. Some countries and groups of people have a more aquisitioning approach to life. Do you follow?

"Wherever you go, do as you see and project positively to others" That is my advice to everybody here and of course to companies like Apple.

Just before finishing: be careful and think twice before using the expression "3rd world countries". There is only ONE world.

Best, CF
post #50 of 79
I was raised in France in the mid fifties to mid sixties returning to the US to complete my college work. Moving from Brownsville Texas to France was like walking back in time 100 years.

What I found there was a great culture -- but a population wounded by war and jealous of US successes. They were particularly envious of our wealth. Some of my friends would confess that they believed the US was rich because they were poor.

Does that sound familiar?

So that same curse of entitlement continues to this day in France. The unions there represent an abuse of power and actually impoverish the country through toxic regulations and guaranteed government pensions the country obviously cannot afford.

Apple represents US innovation, hard work, and rewards for the most talented people. If they followed the spirit of French rules, they would die as a successful company IMHO. All people are not the same and should never be forced down or up based on union or government regulations. That is the core of having all things in common. And we all know that did not work in Cuba or Russia.
post #51 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by capfuturo View Post

Just before finishing: be careful and think twice before using the expression "3rd world countries". There is only ONE world.

1) That's a nice sentiment but this one world has many parts. I'm not a big fan of the whole 1st/2nd/3rd world nomenclature for many reasons but its colloquial usage does seem easier than writing out poorly-industrialized nation or some other long, complex statement, despite the variations on how one might define a nation can't be summed up as one of three categories.

2) Wikipedia has a nice summary of the original meaning:

"The term Third World arose during the Cold War to define countries that remained non-aligned with either NATO (with the United States, Western European nations and their allies representing the First World), or the Communist Bloc (with the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, Cuba and their allies representing the Second World)."


3) One great thing to come out of the terminology is the phrase: Nerd World Problems.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

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post #52 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Success is punished in France.

 

If I were Apple, I'd be careful about expanding any more in that sort of country.

 

France gets two thumbs down from me.


That's cool. At least you have to get your thumbs out of your butt to do it !

post #53 of 79

How is cleaning the store and stocking the shelves an unusual activity? It isn't. Under the law the employees should not have been doing such late night work for those reasons.

 

Too many corporations take advantage of workers. In the USA there just aren't enough rights for the individuals.

 

I've seen jobs that pay minimum wage, or just above it, require employees to own a car. Imagine telling someone who will be earning less than $10,000 per year that they must spend at least $4000 of their income on maintaining a car. That is about the minimum expense for owning an older car. A new mid-size car will cost a person over $8000 per year to own and maintain.

 

Unions need to make a comeback in the USA before the corporations turn us all into wage slaves. Even you white collar workers need such representation. Without a union to protect you ALL companies make their employees "AT WILL" workers, which means on a whim they can fire you for any reason they can dream up.

post #54 of 79
Good on the French, at least they stand up for their rights. Just a week ago French workers at a US tyre company in France rioted as this rich prick was closing down the company because they refused to work like slaves so he could upgrade to a Ferrari.
Here in Australia, they meekly go like sheep.
post #55 of 79
I'm not going to read any posts but I bet you that there are posters whining about the French here. Correct me if I'm wrong.
post #56 of 79
Scrolled to the top and could not help read the VERY first post, bashing the French, pathetic.
post #57 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimothy View Post

It won't be long before France bans working altogether. Beautiful country. Terribly screwed up labor laws.
So you are an expert on French labour law ?
Wow, like really wow, you visited France for how long? 1 week, I doubt 2, because you only get 2 weeks vacation in US.
Now you know everything about it.
post #58 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


You say plenty of stores but then follow it up with restaurants, bars and pubs. Quoi? What exactly are these labor laws if a retail shop is being fined for its employees working past 9pm? They were still paying their employees, right? And if a retail shop can't get around them why would I think that other stores can?

I've been all over France. For the most part the people were nice but I must say that the locals in Paris seem to dislike any outsiders more than any other country or city I've been to which I find odd since tourism is an amazing boon for the Paris and French economy.


PS: I always end up missing the states when I travel. I do like that so many places are opened around the clock..

PPS: With French unemployment nearing 11% I wonder if offering more hours and more jobs wouldn't be such a bad thing for the French people.

 

Drug stores and some grocery stores are the stores I remember being open after 9, though not that much later.

 

In Canada, retail stores are never open past 9 (unless you count Wal-Mart).  

 

People in Paris are plenty nice, if you speak French 1wink.gif  And I'll admit, I've told American tourists (and Gypsies) I don't speak English...

 

I've always found it strange that so much in the US is open 24 hours per day, that shit don't fly up here (finding a 24hr McDonalds is rare, and before 2008 they didn't exist).  The only stores open late here are liquor stores...

post #59 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickwalker View Post

France is also somewhat unique in that workers are either classified as contract or non-contract.  <...>

 

 

What you say is strange to me, unless you refer to the fact that, basically, employment contracts can be for unlimited duration (at least the limit is not written in the contract, nothing is eternal, of course) or limited duration contracts, which provide a more precarious position, of course.

 

Unions presence is weaker for the latter, of course, but generally speaking unions are somewhat weak in France, at least expressed in terms of number of members (as opposed to Germany, for example, where the common situation is that almost every worker is member of a union).

 

This, as well as the fact that for historical reasons, negotiation/compromise culture (in the "German way", let's say) is not so developed, leads to situations/confrontations like this (if you are weak, you do not want to accept a compromise which could appear as revealing your weak position), which in a "normal" situation, would have been resolved by negotiation (I cannot say more, I know nothing about the specificities of Apple in France as an employer). 

 

But if negotiation has failed, indeed there is no other way for workers to appeal to the legal system to claim for their rights, and this I guess is true in any other country as well (at least in democratic countries, where workers have some rights, and have the opportunity to do so ...).

post #60 of 79
Have them show up at 6 A.M. to prep the store. Surely they don't open the doors until 10 or later?

That small a fine means no one actually considered it a big deal.
post #61 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Success is punished in France.

If I were Apple, I'd be careful about expanding any more in that sort of country.

France gets two thumbs down from me.
A minor labour dispute leads you to this conclusion? Crazy zealotry.

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post #62 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by EauVive View Post

The problem is not with night hours. After all, here in France, as well as in any decent country in the world, there are people like doctors, fire brigades, transportation personnel (trains, buses, planes…), and so on that work from 9 pm to 6 am. But it has to be specified on the work contract when you sign in, and night hours are overpaid and give you extra days off. What is illegal is to force somebody to work after 9 pm if this is not explicitly mentioned at start (i.e. without his prior formal consent).

 

After all, as somebody pointed out, here in Paris we got other things to do after 9 pm. If you guys don’t get a life outside your office, that’s your business, so to speak – and if you are crazy enough to give away extra time to your company without any compensation, too bad for you, and too good for your bosses and shareholders…

 

Somehow, working conditions and schedules have to be defined and enforced by law, otherwise it is called slavery. It is very surprising to me – looking to the US from the other shore of the Atlantic – how some Americans deal with work, up to the point of nearly enslaving themselves; but that’s a very clever victory of both U.S. politicians and bosses alike to have been able to nail down into workers’ minds that they should accept whatever ludicrous conditions were imposed on them. Already in the seventeenth century, a French author had written on this: La Boetie, "Discours sur la servitude volontaire".

 

Have fun guys!

 

PS: remember English is not my mother language!

So good to read a post that makes sense, you put the other whiners to shame, more so as English is not your first language.

There is MUCH more to life than to be a slave to the bosses.

France has got it right. I have visited France many times and I love the language, culture and life there, its so much more relaxed. French cinema is infintly better than the Hollywood garbage.

If I could get a job there, I would be on the plane within a second, although my poor French may exclude me.

I agree wholeheartly what you posted, but watch as you get vilified by those who know nothing, but talk like they know everything.


Edited by hfts - 3/13/13 at 6:47pm
post #63 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptoolan View Post

It would be preferable if commenters would refrain from making derogatory statements about France unless they have direct experience in the country. I live and work in France, and though labor relations can at times be strained, they are not necessarily more so than in many other countries. What is worth noting here is that Apple must apply French law to their store employees working in France, and if they don't they run afoul of it.

All international employment law is complicated, and Apple is not particularly known for internationalizing its operations, rather trying to export Californian business practices to the rest of the world.

I wouldn't extrapolate too much from this judgement; Apple France must be more careful in its scheduling, or justify the hours requested of employees in advance.

Well put.

Americans need to learn that the rest of the world begins 12 miles from the coastline of the US.

post #64 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Success is punished in France.

 

If I were Apple, I'd be careful about expanding any more in that sort of country.

 

France gets two thumbs down from me.

What are you blabbing about ?

Do you think Tim Cook even knows you exists ?

You appear to be suffering from xenophobia (go and look it up in the dictionary).

 

Viva la France !


Edited by hfts - 3/13/13 at 6:48pm
post #65 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by EauVive View Post

I’m not bashing the US. Every country has its pros and cons. Presently, the cons for me overweight the pros, so I wouldn’t move in the US, but I have no special hate or antipathy against America. Under democracy, every folk more or less gets the laws it deserves.

 

But I can’t believe there are some people out here are supporting Apple in this affair. Look: this is a company that refuses to pay shift hours to a handful of retail employees while it has more than $94 billion dollars in cash, its former CEO was rich enough to buy itself a private jet and a yacht, its director staff earns maybe tens of thousands of dollars a month. Worse: this company uses every possible trick to avoid paying taxes in the US (and then the California state is on the verge of bankruptcy, has to cut deeply in major public budgets like education, and eventually you get your stupid fiscal cliff…). And some call this ‘success’, ‘normality’ or ‘honesty’? Are they kidding? Who are they advocating?

I agree Apple is hoarding their money, why ?

For a rainy day perhaps.

Remember this is the same company that wanted to reduce wages/hours for its store employees in the US, but this was riscinded and the retail guy left soon after. Why take the chance of impacting on customer service for a few lousy bucks.

Improve their wages and conditions, watch as they stay, improve and flourish, its a win-win for all.

Its not just Apple, all companys should do this.

post #66 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


1) That's a nice sentiment but this one world has many parts. I'm not a big fan of the whole 1st/2nd/3rd world nomenclature for many reasons but its colloquial usage does seem easier than writing out poorly-industrialized nation or some other long, complex statement, despite the variations on how one might define a nation can't be summed up as one of three categories.

2) Wikipedia has a nice summary of the original meaning:

"The term Third World arose during the Cold War to define countries that remained non-aligned with either NATO (with the United States, Western European nations and their allies representing the First World), or the Communist Bloc (with the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, Cuba and their allies representing the Second World)."


3) One great thing to come out of the terminology is the phrase: Nerd World Problems.

Wrong.

Just because its in Wilpedia doesn't make it correct.

3rd world countries was a term coined to categorise those that are developing economies, mainly African and Asian.

USSR and its allies were never termed as second world, EVER, where did you dig this crap up ?

The US and its allies were called the Free-West or the West to differentiate from USSR and its allies.

By the way the Free-west is a bit of an oxymoron.

post #67 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by hfts View Post

Scrolled to the top and could not help read the VERY first post, bashing the French, pathetic.

You must be looking at a different first post displayed than everyone else...

No bashing going on there.

post #68 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by hfts View Post

So good to read a post that makes sense, you put the other whiners to shame, more so as English is not your first language.

[…]

Thanks ;)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hfts View Post

I agree Apple is hoarding their money, why ?

For a rainy day perhaps.

Remember this is the same company that wanted to reduce wages/hours for its store employees in the US, but this was riscinded and the retail guy left soon after. Why take the chance of impacting on customer service for a few lousy bucks.

Improve their wages and conditions, watch as they stay, improve and flourish, its a win-win for all.

Its not just Apple, all companys should do this.

Yet, in the case of Apple, and other high-tech companies like Google that have become experts in embezzlement, I can’t help thinking this is not only dishonest, but a form of plunder. I mean – I have no stats – but I am pretty sure that a large percentage of Apple engineers stem from of state universities. Take the clang compiler, for example: it began life as a research project in the Illinois state U, and Chris Lattner, who initiated it, was hired by Apple; even MacOS is derived from 4.4 BSD, a version of Unix developed at Berkeley free of charge. State universities run on public money (taxes). Apple is probably very happy to find graduated people to fuel its own R&D, but somehow refuse to return the favor…

post #69 of 79
Originally Posted by EauVive View Post
…in France, as well as in any decent country in the world…

 

Somehow, working conditions and schedules have to be defined and enforced by law, otherwise it is called slavery. It is very surprising to me – looking to the US…

Originally Posted by EauVive View Post
I’m not bashing the US.

 

Sure you're not.

 

Why is it that the French users here almost always report every single post made about France, regardless of content or context, in any thread in which they appear? lol.gif


Worse: this company uses every possible trick to avoid paying taxes in the US…

 

Would you rather we silently accept every single tax put upon us by both our country's and our supranational union's governments, unquestioningly, regardless of what it is and whether it should be different?

 

I find it odd that you mention "questioning" labor laws but have the opposite view on this.

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

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post #70 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Sure you're not.

Why is it that the French users here almost always report every single post made about France, regardless of content or context, in any thread in which they appear? lol.gif

Immunity. We are genetically programmed to react to any kind of US antigen intrusion. That’s why, from the cradle on, we eat non-pasteurized stinking cheese lol.gif
Quote:
Would you rather we silently accept every single tax put upon us by both our country's and our supranational union's governments, unquestioningly, regardless of what it is and whether it should be different?

I find it odd that you mention "questioning" labor laws but have the opposite view on this.

Did I mentioned that? As someone recently put it: the law is the law; you can like it, dislike it, even hate it; it can be debated and eventually altered, but it is still the law, and, as such, it must be obeyed…
post #71 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by hfts View Post

Wrong.
Just because its in Wilpedia doesn't make it correct.
3rd world countries was a term coined to categorise those that are developing economies, mainly African and Asian.
USSR and its allies were never termed as second world, EVER, where did you dig this crap up ?
The US and its allies were called the Free-West or the West to differentiate from USSR and its allies.
By the way the Free-west is a bit of an oxymoron.

As I stated, your definition is a modern colloquial use. The term originally had no barring on developed or undeveloped. It was based on alliances.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #72 of 79
Originally Posted by EauVive View Post
As someone recently put it: the law is the law; you can like it, dislike it, even hate it; it can be debated and eventually altered, but it is still the law, and, as such, it must be obeyed…

 

Apple's obeying the tax law. *shrug*

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

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post #73 of 79

Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I used to work a 9-5:30pm M-F, and then a double-shift weekend job from 3pm Saturday afternoon to 7am Sunday morning and then 3pm Sunday afternoon to 7am Monday morning, which my weekday job starting just two hours later. Leaving work Monday evening after 24 hours of work in the span of 26.5 hours was my weekend. That nine 8 hour shifts per week which comes out to 72 hours per week. I did that routine for 6 months. I didn't go out as I had no time nor energy but I saved a lot of money. It was the start of my investing and ability to retire by 30yo (which I'm now no longer doing as found retirement boring).

It was rough but I wouldn't do it differently if I had the choice. It was the first time I felt like an adult, the first time I felt I was finally taking responsibility for my own future.

 

This is a great personal story, thanks for sharing.  

 

Most of us are basically anonymous here (some more than others, heh), but it also feels like a weird, dysfunctional family as well, where many of us "know" each other.  After years of reading/writing (mostly reading, in my case), I'm sure most of us have learned about/created interesting personalities for the other active members.  I don't recall ever hearing the story above before, but it bumps my impression of you up a notch (and you're already a pretty respectable guy around here IMO ;-) ).  I could share a similar tale, but not without getting too personal, to the point of being more or less identifiable IRL, so I'll pass for now.  But props given, from me anyway.

 

Good money-management and investment skills aside, you'll have to admit you got lucky to hit the point you did by age 30.  Many people who have good money-management skills and at least partake in investment (lots of luck required to be consistently successful on a large scale), still take decades to reach that point.  I'm sure it's a combination of smarts/skill, luck and just Doing Something.

 

That said, having seen my "fortune" come and go twice, I'll caution you (and everyone else) to be careful not to get overconfident based on past success.

 

Glad to hear that you're doing something other than "retirement".  Care to drop any hints?

No Matte == No Sale :-(
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No Matte == No Sale :-(
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post #74 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Apple's obeying the tax law. *shrug*
They will do now, after being taken to court because they weren't. Pretty liberal definition of "obeying" you have there.

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post #75 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptoolan View Post

It would be preferable if commenters would refrain from making derogatory statements about France unless they have direct experience in the country. I live and work in France, and though labor relations can at times be strained, they are not necessarily more so than in many other countries. 

 

 

I don't think anyone is concerned about strain within labor relations, but rather that the French idea of what is acceptable and unacceptable work/working hours/working conditions is much more conservative than the rest of the world.

 

I have no problem if foreigners want to view those type of work restrictions as commentary on the political and social values of the country...because those work restrictions were put in place by the people of France. They chose to set up their society that way, and so they should have no problem with defending outside critique of their system. 

post #76 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

Good money-management and investment skills aside, you'll have to admit you got lucky to hit the point you did by age 30.

Absolutely! I've made the argument before that most of of what we get in this world has to do with luck. Some disagreed with me. I think they felt I was saying that their success wasn't their doing. Of course if you work on hard on something to achieve a goal you should get credit for that but my comment was geared toward the opportunities that are put n place that allowed that goal or goals to be achievable in the first place. Good family, good public education, good health care, not being physically or mentally ill from birth or from some accident readily come to mind. Even the time and place you are born, how you look and your gender can play a role. I take credit for taking advantage of that work situation early on in my life but I understand that my opportunities far outnumber the average person.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #77 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post



2) Wikipedia has a nice summary of the original meaning:

"The term Third World arose during the Cold War to define countries that remained non-aligned with either NATO (with the United States, Western European nations and their allies representing the First World), or the Communist Bloc (with the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, Cuba and their allies representing the Second World)."

Well wikipedia also has this .

So I would be careful before using the logic "since its on wikipedia it must be true".Its a slippery slope from there.As far as this issue goes I do not see what is wrong with workers getting what is rightfully theirs.

 Apple is based out of Cupertino,CA.Not much good it has done to the state has it?

And when you stash away your money out of the country,you cannot whine about the rules in different countries.

Apple wants the labour laws  but not the tax laws of the United States.

 

Unless of course it is China where they do not have problem with either the communism or the labour laws.

post #78 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by libdem View Post

So I would be careful before using the logic "since its on wikipedia it must be true"


There is a distinct different with asserting that something is true because it's on the internet and citing a definition that you found on the internet. You seem to claim that just because I cited Wikipedia it is therefore false and should not be trusted without any consideration for using that page as a jumping off point to verify the data I took the time to cite.

If you think that the info I posted as to the original definition is false then please make that argument along with all appropriate citations to back it up but to imply that my citation to Wikipedia is wrong because they also post a detailed etymology of the word nigger makes no sense. BTW, that page is quite accurate as to the original usage of nigger.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #79 of 79
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
They will do now, after being taken to court because they weren't. Pretty liberal definition of "obeying" you have there.

 

Wait, when was Apple taken to court over disobeying tax law?

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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