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Munster, Siegler, Agreda talk iWatch, iTVs, and Apple's 'groove' - Page 2

post #41 of 73
There's an incredible expectation on Apple to invent new products every 6 months - and then complain because they invent too many new products.

It's true, Apple's track record is phenomenal, there were no real touch-screen phones, no tablets, no app stores, no online music stores of any consequence, until Apple invented them. And, of course, you can go back further to the personal computer, GUI operating systems etc. etc. Phenomenal. And then what we see is all of the "me too's" simply creating variations of Apple's products. There's little expectation on Samsung to come up with something new (and even less for Microsoft), these other companies are not expected to innovate, and yet somehow people expect Apple to keep inventing a new thingamajig that no one has thought of before. It just doesn't happen, at least not that often. For Apple, it's been 4 or 5 unique things that have truly changed the world, for most other companies it never happens, they contend themselves with a "copy or die" strategy that brings in quick dollars, until they can copy the next thing.

There is an incredible spirit of innovation at Apple, and we will see new inventions and amazing products, but to expect this on a 6 month basis is ridiculous. There's very little praise given for refining, improving, making something great even greater, but sometimes little steps are needed before giant leaps can be taken. The negativity shown toward Apple recently is certainly unwarranted, and definitely hypocritical, in the light of the low expectations afforded to other tech companies.
post #42 of 73
The fundamental problem here is that people - you, me, writers, analysts, everyone - got used to Apple doing something nobody expected, didn't know they wanted (and now can't live without). This created a schism in "innovation". There's now Apple style innovation, which gets everyone on the edge of their seat, and there's normal (let's call it Samsung style for fun) innovation. So we expect Apple to give us something amazing that we can't imagine. Like children on Christmas morning wondering what's under the tree for them, certainly something that will make their head explode from excitement. And we know the feeling of disappointment when it doesn't come (and still hope there's a Red Rider BB gun that they didn't see in the corner). But the problem is the inflation of that "something" that grows and grows so big that nobody, not even Apple, can fulfill the expectation. It's really a matter of market maturity, consumer maturity. This market still has to grow up, and realize that you don't always get what you want (or what you didn't know you wanted) on Christmas morning.

Meanwhile the Samsungs of the world never set expectations very high, never gave us anything other than a next gen processor. So when they make a bigger screen, those same people disappointed with Apple channel their excitement into that, or a stylus for crying out loud.

Never underestimate the similarities between childhood and market analysis. It's all there.
post #43 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Do they? These guys are sanctioned by the most secretive company in the industry to talk about future products?

No I'm referring to the organizers, not Apple.

post #44 of 73
[quote name="peter236" url="/t/156519/munster-siegler-agreda-talk-iwatch-itvs-and-apples-groove#post_2295522"

Samsung also sold a record number of phones, as did Huawei, Lenovo and ZTE etc. Apple's market share is shinking, so is the IOS ecosystem.
[/quote]
]
No one but Samsung knows how many they sold and they aren't telling. The estimates leaked about numbers shipped since 2010 are much lower than what they reported as sold in the trial with Apple. The usage numbers don't add up either of Android either. How can they ship so many more phones than Apple in the US, but when the major carriers report their numbers, Apple controls their sales? the real question is why no one points this out in the media.
post #45 of 73
@tallest skill: the only imporant idea here is "do they benefit from drumming up these opinions". If not, they're like you. You publicly make your (sometimes exact, sometimes retarded) opinions. I'm not calling for you to be imprisonned even though you fail to see the light of the Android way 1tongue.gif

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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post #46 of 73

The host shouldn't have ambushed one of his guests with that wager at the end, that was quite inappropriate I thought. If they were having a conversation between mates sure, but not on a stage in front of an audience.

post #47 of 73
Only a sucker would believe the sh** those two clowns were saying. How can you say Apple is in a rut when they posted the best quarter in their history?
The stock price dropped while Apple was making billions. GTFO! No debt and bling for days in their overseas bank account.
Munster is trolling for the sap investors. Wall Street speculated on Apple and they lost. Not Apple.
post #48 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

If what you claim is true you can post some figures. Show me yours and I'll show you mine but I guarantee that my iPhone numbers far exceed the Galaxy S III numbers which are the highest shipping high-end Android-based device on the market today.
It's always the same samdung sold more s3 phones. But how do they know if no figures are released, just guesses.
I cannot fathom how they sit at a keyboard and write these blatant lies. What's in it for them.
I guess it's mental jack-off of some sorts.
It's like they live in Bizzaro world where what is wrong is right and what is right is wrong. Sheesh.
post #49 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by leighr View Post

There's an incredible expectation on Apple to invent new products every 6 months - and then complain because they invent too many new products.

It's true, Apple's track record is phenomenal, there were no real touch-screen phones, no tablets, no app stores, no online music stores of any consequence, until Apple invented them. And, of course, you can go back further to the personal computer, GUI operating systems etc. etc. Phenomenal. And then what we see is all of the "me too's" simply creating variations of Apple's products. There's little expectation on Samsung to come up with something new (and even less for Microsoft), these other companies are not expected to innovate, and yet somehow people expect Apple to keep inventing a new thingamajig that no one has thought of before. It just doesn't happen, at least not that often. For Apple, it's been 4 or 5 unique things that have truly changed the world, for most other companies it never happens, they contend themselves with a "copy or die" strategy that brings in quick dollars, until they can copy the next thing.

There is an incredible spirit of innovation at Apple, and we will see new inventions and amazing products, but to expect this on a 6 month basis is ridiculous. There's very little praise given for refining, improving, making something great even greater, but sometimes little steps are needed before giant leaps can be taken. The negativity shown toward Apple recently is certainly unwarranted, and definitely hypocritical, in the light of the low expectations afforded to other tech companies.

You're either young and don't know any better or grossly misinformed but the fact is Apple DID NOT invent all those things. What they did do was take existing technology and services and combine them in ways no one had thought of before offering a user experience exponentially better than it's predecessors.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #50 of 73
I believe in Apple, they have came out with some of the most amazing devices.
Yes, they have stumbled a bit, Maps and some others, but I have faith and are eagerly awaiting their next amazing device. The only tech company that innovates and believes in their customers.
Lots of speculations but I know they won't disappoint.
Edited by hfts - 3/18/13 at 5:45am
post #51 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter236 View Post



Samsung also sold a record number of phones, as did Huawei, Lenovo and ZTE etc. Apple's market share is shinking, so is the IOS ecosystem.

That might be troublesome if the market stayed the same size, but the market is growing at a fast pace. All they have is a slightly smaller piece of a much bigger pie.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #52 of 73

Hey People,

 

Don't be fooled by the many theories on why Apple shares fell from $700 to $425. It has nothing to do with Samsung eating Apple's lunch. It has nothing to do with a lack of innovation. It has nothing to do with losing Steve Jobs as their visionary.

 

It has everything to do with a small group of market makers who have an extremely large influence on the stock market. The decisions of these few influential financial institutions can make or break a company and it can make an individual investor rich or broke. Check out this TED talk so you understand what's really going on: 

 

http://www.ted.com/talks/james_b_glattfelder_who_controls_the_world.html

post #53 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by hfts View Post

I believe in Apple, they have came out with some of the most amazing devices.
Yes, they have stumbled a bit, Maps and some others, but I have faith and are eagerly awaiting their next amazing device. The only tech company that innovates and believes in their customers.
Lots of speculations but I know they won't disappoint.

Yes but what? What piece of CE is there that Apple can come and redefine? Apple has spoiled us since the iPod, and have changed the game several times but that can only happen so many times eventually one has to become just another player in the game they changed, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that because they'll still outplay all challengers.
Edited by dasanman69 - 3/18/13 at 6:02am
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #54 of 73

Twitters, blogs, media pundits, analysts and evangelists.   People who generate noise for a living.  They have to have something to talk about.  Even if it is out of their arses.   

post #55 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


You're either young and don't know any better or grossly misinformed but the fact is Apple DID NOT invent all those things. What they did do was take existing technology and services and combine them in ways no one had thought of before offering a user experience exponentially better than it's predecessors.

He did say "of any consequence".

 

 

Just because the parts exist, doesn't mean that putting them together in new and interesting ways isn't in the spirit of invention.

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post #56 of 73

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 7/23/13 at 9:31am
post #57 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post


I'm not sure it's all that deep.  Stock prices have little to do with current value, and much more to do with anticipated growth.  So the question is not whether Apple is currently profitable, or even it it's likely to remain profitable going forward (it likely will).  

Instead the question is simply whether Apple can continue to have the same rate of growth going forward that it's had in recent years.  Yes, there will be growth, but with the smartphone market as a whole moving toward saturation (not there of course, just moving toward it), and with the competition heating up, it doesn't seem all that unreasonable that Apple's growth rates, while remaining quite positive for years to come, may not be at the same steep slope we've seen in recent years.

That's so simplistic that it's useless.

Stock prices are not determined on the basis of anticipated growth. They are determined based on an investor's estimate of net present value of future results. Anticipated growth is only one element of those results.

By that standard (pretty much by ANY standard), Apple is undervalued.

Look at the market average. The market is trading about around 16 times earnings and the average company has about a 3-5% growth rate. Since that's the average of thousands of companies, the market has determined that a P/E of 16 is a fair level for a company growing at a few percent.

Apple's growth rate is greater than that and its multiple is around 7. So even if Apple's growth were to slow down to the market average, they're still less than half of what the market has determined is a fair multiple.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #58 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


That's so simplistic that it's useless.

Stock prices are not determined on the basis of anticipated growth. They are determined based on an investor's estimate of net present value of future results. Anticipated growth is only one element of those results.

By that standard (pretty much by ANY standard), Apple is undervalued.

Look at the market average. The market is trading about around 16 times earnings and the average company has about a 3-5% growth rate. Since that's the average of thousands of companies, the market has determined that a P/E of 16 is a fair level for a company growing at a few percent.

Apple's growth rate is greater than that and its multiple is around 7. So even if Apple's growth were to slow down to the market average, they're still less than half of what the market has determined is a fair multiple.

How would you explain Amazon? Or the Facebook IPO? Or even Facebook today for that matter. 

melior diabolus quem scies
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post #59 of 73

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 7/23/13 at 9:34am
post #60 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter236 View Post



Samsung also sold a record number of phones, as did Huawei, Lenovo and ZTE etc. Apple's market share is shinking, so is the IOS ecosystem.

Source this. No one but Apple has released actual numbers. Apple has three models. Compare that with the competitors' top 3 models (flagship or not). iOS isn't shrinking because it's also in the iPads and touches. Why do trolls seem to ignore them.
post #61 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

Source this. No one but Apple has released actual numbers. Apple has three models. Compare that with the competitors' top 3 models (flagship or not). iOS isn't shrinking because it's also in the iPads and touches. Why do trolls seem to ignore them.

I'll take shipping numbers for a model like Samsung has done with the S III. We don't know actual sales but can deduce that they've sold dozens of millions that have made it into the hands of customers based on the 50 million figure, anecdotal evidence of its popularity, and knowledge that channel stuffing is only viable to an extent. More popular than the iPhone 5? Not even close, but still a popular phone and likely the most popular high-end Android-based phone by a wide margin.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #62 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I don't know. I think the success of the really expensive and really large Galaxy Note has shown that there is a market for really large phone/tablet hybrids. They seem especially popular in the Asian markets, perhaps because of the nature of their written language or some other cultural-based preference. If they do, I think 4.94" will likely be the chosen size so hey can use the 1136x640 resolution with the 264 PPI of the iPad 4.

I'm sure there is a market for 5" phones and I'm sure Apple will investigate or is investigating it. But to say they NEED one is pure bunk.
post #63 of 73
Hey, MG Siegler....
Just so you know, it's not the press jumping on Apple's back, it's Google and Samsung feeding fake stories like Antennagate to the press. I'm not a fan of Cook being CEO, but the only major misstep Apple has made lately is with Maps. The rest is the competition feeding the media. They love to have something to talk about other than Obama (yawn).
post #64 of 73
Originally Posted by acslater017 View Post
I'm not a "sky is falling" type by any means - I realize that this is part of their normal product cycle…

 

So why mention it at all?

 

…tinkerer types…

 

Read: people for whom the iPhone isn't designed in the first place.


…getting very stale in the UI department.

 

Well, there goes the rest of your opinion.


…getting slightly less reliable. 

 

Just vague enough not to mean anything at all.


-Apple used to easily trounce competitors in UI. Now they have made "skeuomorphism" a household word. 

 

That's… why they have trounced competitors. 


-iWork is still on version '09. Siri is still in "beta", whatever that means. 

 

It means beta. Maybe use a dictionary to find out what the word 'beta' means. iWork hasn't changed because what is there to change? At this point it's just adding more features, and you'll whine about them ""just" adding more features".


Realistically should have been an optional download for iOS 6 and replaced Google Maps in iOS 7.

 

Realistically their deal with Google ran out before that could happen.


iOS needs some fresh blood, stat.

 

Hardly.


…we are in a relative lull in product releases…

 

Sure, if you ignore the entirety of 2012. Come on.


Originally Posted by lightknight View Post
the only imporant idea here is "do they benefit from drumming up these opinions".

 

They're paid to spew them. Even before the stock they may hold, that's enough.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #65 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

I'm sure there is a market for 5" phones and I'm sure Apple will investigate or is investigating it. But to say they NEED one is pure bunk.

I agree with that. The fact that the iPhone is the most successful high-end phone, and by a very large margin and even across older models still being sold is proof they don't need a 5" iPhone.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #66 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spamboy View Post

Hey, MG Siegler....
Just so you know, it's not the press jumping on Apple's back, it's Google and Samsung feeding fake stories like Antennagate to the press. I'm not a fan of Cook being CEO, but the only major misstep Apple has made lately is with Maps. The rest is the competition feeding the media. They love to have something to talk about other than Obama (yawn).

Why aren't you a fan of Cook as CEO? Because he's not Jobs is not a valid reason.
post #67 of 73
Ah, the ostriches are up in arms I today see? The truth is a bitch! Munster was kind when he said "They had an abnormally large amount of products that were released at the end of the year. So I do think that that, mixed with the executive shakeup, is changing way that their products are released."

It was more like Apple dumped all their new products at once out of a greasy ripped paper bag.
post #68 of 73
Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post
Ah, the ostriches are up in arms I today see? The truth is a bitch! Munster was kind when he said "They had an abnormally large amount of products that were released at the end of the year. So I do think that that, mixed with the executive shakeup, is changing way that their products are released."

It was more like Apple dumped all their new products at once out of a greasy ripped paper bag.

 

Why are you the way that you are?

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #69 of 73

Munster and Siegler - interesting pair. One is an analyst and the other is a VC/pundit.

 

Munster insists a TV is being developed at Apple. Siegler insists Facebook is designing a phone.

 

Which one will be proven right and which one will have egg on his face?

post #70 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

Munster and Siegler - interesting pair. One is an analyst and the other is a VC/pundit.

Munster insists a TV is being developed at Apple. Siegler insists Facebook is designing a phone.

Which one will be proven right and which one will have egg on his face?

Neither as both could say "at the last minute the company changed its mind"
post #71 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


You're either young and don't know any better or grossly misinformed but the fact is Apple DID NOT invent all those things. What they did do was take existing technology and services and combine them in ways no one had thought of before offering a user experience exponentially better than it's predecessors.

Actually you're wrong on both counts.  I've been using Apple products for 28 years. When I started using the Apple II, the mouse hadn't been 'invented' yet (or at least wasn't available for me to buy).

 

This comes up constantly, and I was waiting for someone to say - "Apple didn't invent the mouse, Apple didn't invent the GUI, Apple didn't invent the iPod....", (and by the way, Henry Ford didn't 'invent' the car either) there were obviously other companies working along parallel lines, and also those who came up with concepts first, but either didn't have the ability to see the potential, or the ability to get it working well (Xerox's GUI for instance, or even Apple's first PC, when other companies didn't see a future in home computers). The point is, it was Apple's invention/implementation of these devices that changed the world. Earlier implementations of mp3 players didn't take off, it was Apple's invention (call it a re-invention if you will) which worked - alongside their brand new iTunes store. Personally, I call that invention and innovation. No, the didn't invent every single part that went into an iPod, but they invented a device that worked, and that subsequently everyone tried unsuccessfully to copy (Zune anyone?). So yes, Apple DID invent those things - and it was those inventions that DID change the technology world as we know it today. 

post #72 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by leighr View Post

Actually you're wrong on both counts.  I've been using Apple products for 28 years. When I started using the Apple II, the mouse hadn't been 'invented' yet (or at least wasn't available for me to buy).

This comes up constantly, and I was waiting for someone to say - "Apple didn't invent the mouse, Apple didn't invent the GUI, Apple didn't invent the iPod....", (and by the way, Henry Ford didn't 'invent' the car either) there were obviously other companies working along parallel lines, and also those who came up with concepts first, but either didn't have the ability to see the potential, or the ability to get it working well (Xerox's GUI for instance, or even Apple's first PC, when other companies didn't see a future in home computers). The point is, it was Apple's invention/implementation of these devices that changed the world. Earlier implementations of mp3 players didn't take off, it was Apple's invention (call it a re-invention if you will) which worked - alongside their brand new iTunes store. Personally, I call that invention and innovation. No, the didn't invent every single part that went into an iPod, but they invented a device that worked, and that subsequently everyone tried unsuccessfully to copy (Zune anyone?). So yes, Apple DID invent those things - and it was those inventions that DID change the technology world as we know it today. 

You make good points but I do not agree, so let's just agree to disagree. Henry Ford just expanded mass production which Olds invented.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #73 of 73
Surely the recent VESA wall-mounted iMac is the current Apple TV' display and it is fed content from the Apple TV box (HULU/iTunes/NetFlix etc), the iPad, the iPhone etc. Next I just want a decent sized display with VESA mounting (40" minimum) : it doesn't need to be an iMac it could be just a new thunderbolt display.
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