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Why did Apple hire Adobe CTO Kevin Lynch? - Page 5

post #161 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


I'd love to see Apple make a competitor to Adobe's products using CoreImage. It could be blazingly fast and integrated into the system. Given that Adobe has been doing their best to screw Apple for 20 years (late products, discounts to switch from Mac to WIndows, etc), it would serve them right.


I don't see why "serve them right" is part of the equation here. FCPX technically competes with Premiere, yet both continue to exist. I have yet to see a version of Aperture that is on par with Lightroom. With Apple these things tend to become pet projects rather than a part of their core business model, which would be my biggest concern.

post #162 of 198
I'm sure it was to show that there's no hard feelings over the Flash battle. Give the guy a second chance. DWS (dripping w/ sarcasm)
post #163 of 198
post #164 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post


Did I call for anyone's job or forecast doom? Stop lying!

"The buck stops here" - it's not noblesse oblige; it's the real world. And it's the way it should be. Whether something could be done or not is not always relevant. I put you in charge of making sure iMacs are delivered. You fail? It doesn't matter that Joe Mo was sick, or his glue didn't stick. You are responsible because you should have planned for such possibilities before giving me a shipment date. Ergo, you are fired. Now, shoo!

Suppose that "you" is Tim Cook. (You don't know.) He fires himself, or is fired by the board. Apple self-destructs. Doom.

You just showed me not to be lying. Actually, I was lumping you in with anantksundaram and generalizing about the seriousness of your (ignorant?) foot-stomping from the sidelines.
post #165 of 198

Thanks for the link.

Gruber's totally out of line on this one, and he just joined my peanut gallery.

Notice DED's story here gets the last word.
post #166 of 198
My theory is that apple has hired him to build an Apple centric 2D/3D engine that they have total control over so app developers can build apps faster, easier, that better target the hardware. Athough apple squashed flash, apple is nervous that Unity3D got out of control. Games built with unity3d that were once ios excusive, are now every were. Android/ouya/webtv/windows/etc....

An Apple controled 2D/3D engine will address this and Lynch is a likely candidate to build it.

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Schlong AAPL

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post #167 of 198
@ClementineOrange, good one. Not that I know anything about it, but at least you got a theory that gives credit to the minds at work at Apple.

Tweet it to Gruber? He needs help today.
post #168 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

I like this structure better though because instead of someone protecting their product line (to the possible detriment of other product lines, see: Sinofsky and Windows) everything you do is for the betterment of the company overall. 

Yes everything you do is for the company as a whole, except many of the things you do are bad, because you're a bozo, because there was no simple metric to tell when hiring you if you were any good or not.

post #169 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post


Suppose that "you" is Tim Cook. (You don't know.) He fires himself, or is fired by the board. Apple self-destructs. Doom.

You just showed me not to be lying. Actually, I was lumping you in with anantksundaram and generalizing about the seriousness of your (ignorant?) foot-stomping from the sidelines.


No. You are you. Shoo!

post #170 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Rounceville View Post

Wow, this doesn't make a lot of sense. I've seen Lynch at AdobeMAX several times, and he's a very underwhelming speaker. I often walked away from his speeches scratching my head more than being enthused about Adobe's product announcements. His leadership of Adobe as CTO over the past several years has been questionable at best. Adobe's integration of the Macromedia product line has been a rudderless ship, with rumors of in-fighting (involving Lynch) rampant.

What on earth can Cook see in this guy? I'm sure he's a nice guy and all, but c'mon, this is Apple. Apple doesn't hire B players.

That was Jobs' Apple.

But even Jobs wouldn't hire someone who can threaten him, I'd expect. But he was Jobs. He could get A players who were still not on his level of the game.

Same for Tim. He will not hire someone who can tomorrow emerge as better leader for Apple than him. But he is not Jobs. Thus B players.

I don't think it is anything uncommon. Others are doing the same. Microsoft? Hell yeah.
post #171 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


That was Jobs' Apple.

But even Jobs wouldn't hire someone who can threaten him, I'd expect. But he was Jobs. He could get A players who were still not on his level of the game.

How much of it do you think was him as opposed to him taking the credit for the actions of A players hired by him?

post #172 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


That was Jobs' Apple.

But even Jobs wouldn't hire someone who can threaten him, I'd expect. But he was Jobs. He could get A players who were still not on his level of the game.

Same for Tim. He will not hire someone who can tomorrow emerge as better leader for Apple than him. But he is not Jobs. Thus B players.

I don't think it is anything uncommon. Others are doing the same. Microsoft? Hell yeah.

 

This whole A player, B player, best people stuff is overblown. It is also irrelevant to discuss whether someone like Avie Tevanian or Mansfield or Ive is on Jobs' level of "the game". Jobs wasn't on the level of any of these guys in what they did and do. Similarly, they don't have his drive for and vision of integrated systems, and the knack to get his teams to work together, not to mention work like mad. Everyone played a role. But Jobs was not a level above. In fact, arguably, anyone of his senior managers could have done his job, albeit not as well. But he couldn't have done any one of their jobs. So the comparison is pointless.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

How much of it do you think was him as opposed to him taking the credit for the actions of A players hired by him?


There is a bit of that. But it doesn't matter. Jobs got his people to deliver topnotch hardware and two topnotch OSes. He could take credit for various ideas. But it is really his ideas that forged his legacy. Many folks had equally compelling visions. What made him stand apart was he pulled his team together to deliver, and to do what he couldn't do himself.

post #173 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Yes everything you do is for the company as a whole, except many of the things you do are bad, because you're a bozo, because there was no simple metric to tell when hiring you if you were any good or not.

The fact that he quit Adobe means he was not married to Flash. When he worked at Adobe and Macromedia he was defending the company policies that were in place. He didn't invent or write Flash. Now that he is at Apple, expect the same type of loyalty. He is a top tier software engineer. He'll manage to not let previous affiliations get in the way of his accomplishments at his new position.

 

Think of it as a professional sports star being traded to another team. The new team gets his undivided attention and when there is competition with his old team, his loyalty is to his current manager not the previous one.

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post #174 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post


Think of it as a professional sports star being traded to another team. The new team gets his undivided attention and when there is competition with his old team, his loyalty is to his current manager not the previous one.

Unless you are Brandon Jacobs.
post #175 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Yeah Apple has a great track record with Pro apps. They start out with lots of potential, then methodically remove features with each update until they eventually discontinue it. Sounds perfect. The Adobe accusation for late product on Mac has not happened since CS was introduced and I have never heard of discounts to switch to Windows. Do you have any citations for that? Not saying it isn't true just I have never been offered a such a discount and if that was indeed one of Adobe's promotions I would think they would have notified me as I have been a long time Mac software customer since the original Illustrator 1a.

They did it back in the PPC Mac days. When Apple came out with PPC Macs, Adobe was extremely slow in coming out with native versions of their software. Instead, they offered their customers a low cost sidegrade to switch to the Windows version.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #176 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

They did it back in the PPC Mac days. When Apple came out with PPC Macs, Adobe was extremely slow in coming out with native versions of their software. Instead, they offered their customers a low cost sidegrade to switch to the Windows version.

Really? I remember the distinct opposite. Some people I knew back in those days were actually interested in switching to Windows due to the poor performance issues of Macs during the late 80s and early 90s but Adobe would not let them cross upgrade, So please provide some credible references to support your claim.

 

Personally I have had nothing but top notch service and support from Adobe. They even gave us free copies of inDesign 1 when it was released because we owned  licenses for PageMaker which was an Adobe product at the time so it wasn't even an attempt to persuade us to bail on a competitor's product.

 

Adobe has been absolutely indispensable to professional graphic designers for decades so you are going to be hard pressed to get anyone to agree with your rabid criticisms of Adobe if those people make their living from graphic design. By in large the complainers are not even owners of a legitimate copy of Adobe CS which is the ultimate suite for professional designers bar none.

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post #177 of 198

Have you used Autocad or Navis, lately? people use them, like people use Windows because they have to not because the software is any good, the competition in Cad and desktop publishing has been for dead for years. The Ribbons UI is unbelievable after using Mac OS X.

post #178 of 198

I have to wonder how many women and/or minorities and/or white males Samsung has on it's board of directors or in senior management positions. I wonder also how many people have ever thought about that or cared. Or care now a single damn.

 

back on topic: I hope that if Lynch is a bad fit that they let him go quickly.

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AppleInsider = Apple-in-cider. It's a joke!

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post #179 of 198
Daniel Eran Dilger has long been, and still is, the most thorough, well-reasoned, and insightful Apple analyst I have ever read. It is why I start my day reading Apple Insider every day.
post #180 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


They did it back in the PPC Mac days. When Apple came out with PPC Macs, Adobe was extremely slow in coming out with native versions of their software. Instead, they offered their customers a low cost sidegrade to switch to the Windows version.

 

Yes I remember that. And let us not forget the software features (on Acrobat for example) that were Windows only — and that mac users had to pay the same price for less features.

 

Adobe's corporate structure seems to be (based on forum remarks elsewhere from people who actually worked there) a fairly toxic affair. The concern is that Lynch is saturated in all that and will bring it with him. But if not I wish him well. 

AppleInsider = Apple-in-cider. It's a joke!

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post #181 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eluard View Post

Adobe's corporate structure seems to be (based on forum remarks elsewhere from people who actually worked there) a fairly toxic affair. The concern is that Lynch is saturated in all that and will bring it with him. But if not I wish him well. 

Well let's not forget that Randy Ubillos also made a similar career path, working at Macromedia, Adobe and then Apple and he turned out to be a solid asset to Apple's software engineering group.

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post #182 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigklem View Post

Daniel Eran Dilger has long been, and still is, the most thorough, well-reasoned, and insightful Apple analyst I have ever read. It is why I start my day reading Apple Insider every day.

He sure outdid Gruber on this one. Look how Daring Fireball has provided fodder for BGR and Fox News today and stoked the Apple-is-losing insanity. Gruber should know better than to traffic in such easy bait as the "bozo" bone he threw to the enemy. He can be a jackass sometimes, which is why he's so good at picking other jackasses out. And which is one reason it's such a hoot to read him.

Dilger would never give out such easy troll bait, I don't think. Oh, and welcome to the forum.
post #183 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

How much of it do you think was him as opposed to him taking the credit for the actions of A players hired by him?

I would expect that many (if not all) were better in their specific fields, but as a whole package, I don't think that many, if any, could challenge him. In addition, he had talent to bind them all, use their special talents without giving them opportunity to challenge him at the top. In a way, his subjects were human, dwarf and even elves rings, but he was The Ring. The One Ring.

Tim is, well, one of the rest of the rings. Good exec, but not genius. It is not Tim's fault, but it is his bad luck to succeed one Jobs. And his curse to be judged and compared with one Jobs.
post #184 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

This whole A player, B player, best people stuff is overblown. It is also irrelevant to discuss whether someone like Avie Tevanian or Mansfield or Ive is on Jobs' level of "the game". Jobs wasn't on the level of any of these guys in what they did and do. Similarly, they don't have his drive for and vision of integrated systems, and the knack to get his teams to work together, not to mention work like mad. Everyone played a role. But Jobs was not a level above. In fact, arguably, anyone of his senior managers could have done his job, albeit not as well. But he couldn't have done any one of their jobs. So the comparison is pointless.



There is a bit of that. But it doesn't matter. Jobs got his people to deliver topnotch hardware and two topnotch OSes. He could take credit for various ideas. But it is really his ideas that forged his legacy. Many folks had equally compelling visions. What made him stand apart was he pulled his team together to deliver, and to do what he couldn't do himself.

That is true (that he could not do others jobs as much as they could not do his).

But.

He did have brilliant talent to recognize value of them all, not as individuals but as pieces of Apple's big puzzle, which is only one of the things that made him great leader. Look at Ive, for example. Would he have same opportunity has he started working in company with even more money and resources than Apple had, back in the days he joined in? Say Dell or HP? I sincerely think not. Would we even know of Phil Schiller has he ended in, say, Motorola?

No, I really think you can find another designer who would perform as well - hell maybe even better - in Ive's chair, given same circumstances Ive was facing. And I think Jobs would find that other designer, or 10 of them. And I also think that same Ive would be, what, just one of the guys behind CAD workstation in most if not all other work environments. It is not Ive that made Jobs great CEO, it is Jobs that made Ive successful and recognised he is today.

Just my humble opinion.
post #185 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementineOrange View Post

My theory is that apple has hired him to build an Apple centric 2D/3D engine that they have total control over so app developers can build apps faster, easier, that better target the hardware. Athough apple squashed flash, apple is nervous that Unity3D got out of control. Games built with unity3d that were once ios excusive, are now every were. Android/ouya/webtv/windows/etc....

An Apple controled 2D/3D engine will address this and Lynch is a likely candidate to build it.

 

He doesn't have the skills nor the Cocoa/ObjC background for that work. He'll be overseeing projects and meeting deadlines, not inventing some new technology. The talent at Apple from all the training via NeXT talent is far beyond his skill sets. He's got a history of experience Apple can leverage in the channels and use his background manage but with hands-off.

post #186 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

 

So you find it acceptable that Forstall allowed the release of software with faulty firmware that destroyed wifi, Bluetooth and/or sound functions on numerous phones, cost folks hundreds in cell data overages while reporting the devices were on wifi correctly etc. but hey he gave us nifty moving shadows on the volume knobs. Thats so much better than bug free software 

 

You do realize Scott is still working at Apple, right? He's spending an entire year helping craft a transition for Apple to be primed. Scott will be back with some of my fellow ex-colleagues I've no doubt from NeXT/Apple doing something new that Apple will eventually want to buy.

 

Hell, he might even eventually be the successor down the line, you never know. NeXT/Apple has a history of talent returning home to have another go at it.

post #187 of 198

OMG!  iPhpone 6 will now have A7 and Flash...say cheese.  Click!

post #188 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

 

You do realize Scott is still working at Apple, right? He's spending an entire year helping craft a transition for Apple to be primed. Scott will be back with some of my fellow ex-colleagues I've no doubt from NeXT/Apple doing something new that Apple will eventually want to buy.

 

Hell, he might even eventually be the successor down the line, you never know. NeXT/Apple has a history of talent returning home to have another go at it.

What are you Scott's PR flack?  And what's this obsession with NeXT?  The execs with the most power at Apple right now did not come from NeXT.  If Forstall was so great why didn't Steve recommend him to be CEO?  And why did the other SVPs jump at the chance to get rid of him and take over his duties?

post #189 of 198

He couldn't get flash working in mobile when he was at Adobe?

post #190 of 198
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
And what's this obsession with NeXT?

 

Well, he did work there…


If Forstall was so great why didn't Steve recommend him to be CEO?

 

Because Tim Cook was better. That doesn't preclude Forstall having ability.


And why did the other SVPs jump at the chance to get rid of him and take over his duties?

 

I'd imagine that's from the personality friction.

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post #191 of 198
The lack of women in Apple's top executives is a shame!
post #192 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by c4rlob View Post

The lack of women in Apple's top executives is a shame!

Certainly if there are women available who could do those jobs better and want the jobs. You could also point out the lack of minorities. Having a vagina or a different skin color isn't a qualification any more than not having them. The false assumption to make is that there are equal amounts of fully qualified people of every gender and race in every profession. Tony Fadell's wife used to be VP of Human Resources.
post #193 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


I would expect that many (if not all) were better in their specific fields, but as a whole package, I don't think that many, if any, could challenge him. In addition, he had talent to bind them all, use their special talents without giving them opportunity to challenge him at the top. In a way, his subjects were human, dwarf and even elves rings, but he was The Ring. The One Ring.

Tim is, well, one of the rest of the rings. Good exec, but not genius. It is not Tim's fault, but it is his bad luck to succeed one Jobs. And his curse to be judged and compared with one Jobs.


You're talking more about egos than intelligence. There's a weird assumption on your part that Jobs must have been the smartest person at Apple.

post #194 of 198

Assuming he is not a bozo I do think Apple needs more software people. They have squillions of dollars and one way to help the iPhone and iPad (and Mac actually) pull ahead of the competition would be some really good additional Apple apps.

post #195 of 198

Great article! Very insightful. Thanks, enjoyed it very much. Nice to see a long-time Mac developer come onboard Apple's executive team.

 

Maybe he can reverse the inexorable flow of stupid that has descended upon OS X in Apple's efforts to make it more iOS-like.

 

(the last sentence was an editorial opinion and does not require response from the peanut galley, since I won't be back to read any replies anyway)

post #196 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
Tony Fadell's wife used to be VP of Human Resources.

Women dominate the HR field. The VP or SVP of HR is often therefore thrown out as a top management token.

 

The other area where they dominate -- esp. in tech -- is PR/IR.

post #197 of 198
Cook is Apple's CEO for life. Period. There will be no question about it.

Steve Jobs has also made mistakes on hiring people. His biggest mistake was hiring John Sculley - who then became CEO of Apple. Papermaster was also hired by Jobs.

The key with Apple is that it is a VERY HARSH AND PUNISHING environment for those who are in charge - generally the vice presidents. As Steve Jobs said, for those who are in charge, there are no excuses. You perform or you don't. And if you don't, you are out. Period.

Thus, any hire at Apple who rises to become in charge will have to be awfully good and perform their job. Otherwise, they are quickly fired.

Thus, I have no fear of Apple's hiring of Kevin Lynch. He will either be successful at Apple or he will be fired like the others who preceded him.
post #198 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskatt2 View Post

Cook is Apple's CEO for life. Period. There will be no question about it.

Steve Jobs has also made mistakes on hiring people. His biggest mistake was hiring John Sculley - who then became CEO of Apple. Papermaster was also hired by Jobs.

The key with Apple is that it is a VERY HARSH AND PUNISHING environment for those who are in charge - generally the vice presidents. As Steve Jobs said, for those who are in charge, there are no excuses. You perform or you don't. And if you don't, you are out. Period.

Thus, any hire at Apple who rises to become in charge will have to be awfully good and perform their job. Otherwise, they are quickly fired.

Thus, I have no fear of Apple's hiring of Kevin Lynch. He will either be successful at Apple or he will be fired like the others who preceded him.

This sounds good in general. But their low rate of turnover doesn't reflect the harshness you described.
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