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Apple's Ive brings software, hardware teams together in push for 'flat design' - Page 2

post #41 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemyNX View Post


I thought about that changing color scheme too, but then people would complain that they haven't the color they want...
iOS is hopefully getting rid of the blue color in the browser and unify the os color.
Get rid of glass effects, add light textures like in the osx toolbars and blur transparency.
Get rid of skeumorphism that doesn't add anything.

 

They could add an option for you to change the color theme (just like in OS X). One of the annoying things I find annoying in iOS is the tethering blue bar below the status bar. I really hope they get rid of that as I find myself hitting it every time I try to hit the status bar to move to the top of the UITableView. They could just add an icon in the status bar to indicate tethering.

 

There are many small stuff in iOS UI that Apple need to improve.

post #42 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

They could add an option for you to change the color theme (just like in OS X). One of the annoying things I find annoying in iOS is the tethering blue bar below the status bar. I really hope they get rid of that as I find myself hitting it every time I try to hit the status bar to move to the top of the UITableView. They could just add an icon in the status bar to indicate tethering.

There are many small stuff in iOS UI that Apple need to improve.
And show the tethering in the notification bar directly. But maybe keep the color so people notice when it's active.
I'd move the notification bar to the side.
post #43 of 156

"I've said this before and it fell on deaf ears.."

 

To whom did you say this that it should be of the utmost concern that you should be vindicated?

post #44 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemyNX View Post


Yes, I see that now. It's very discrete, I think it looks great. Apple should dump flashy textures and use textures that the user doesn't notice, but make him more comfortable. Windows had the good idea of going all-digital, but they went too far. What's funny is that their experiment has probably been a lesson to a lot of brands.


I'm just making a point that Android is pretty far from clean, flat design. Windows is much better example of flat design (not necessarily a good flat design IMO) but Android definitelly isn't.

post #45 of 156
Jony Ive excels at sweating the details and essentially being sympathetic to the end user. What's the experience of using a product for the first time? How can you make things both simple and powerful?

While Ive might not be able to write code, these are things that iOS desperately needs right now. Setting up, moving files, changing settings, moving between apps, etc are inelegant as is.
post #46 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post


Why are you even here?


Because I obviously have a vested/long-time interest in iOS devices and what possible upgrades/improvements will be coming to my devices.

 

How About You... or are you just here asking inane questions without addressing the topic at hand?

 

 

"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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post #47 of 156

^ You always pull that trick out of your hat. You owning iOS devices doesn't mean you're not a troll, nor does add any validity to your comments.

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post #48 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

No, you don't actually hate skeuomorphism.

 

How is UI design 'functionality'?

Nonsense! UI design IS functionality! Copy and Paste is UI functionality.......just to name one of a gazillion......swipe to unlock is UI functionality. and so on and so on.......

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post #49 of 156
Im so excited to see what changes and UI paradigms the next versions of OSX and iOS will bring. I have a feeling it will be great.
post #50 of 156

Custom Color Themes will never happen. We fought that idiocy during the merging of NeXTSTEP and OS 8/9. Consistency and substance over gimmicks. I have found consistency and substance lacking way too much and let's hope they have that cleaned up.

post #51 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemyNX View Post


If you see a gradient or texture in that third image please show me where.

 

There is no gradient or texture in the third because of the diagonal pattern commonly used in eps vector files or engineering drawings is where the gradient/texture would normally be placed. Combining them would make no sense for that choice.

post #52 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarenDino View Post

Never mind pissballing about with this, where is my effing Mac Pro?????

 

 

Check this out via Gruber:

 

http://hypercritical.co/2013/03/08/the-case-for-a-true-mac-pro-successor

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post #53 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post


Because I obviously have a vested/long-time interest in iOS devices and what possible upgrades/improvements will be coming to my devices.

 

How About You... or are you just here asking inane questions without addressing the topic at hand?

 

 

For me, this proves you work for Samsung, just like that guy that said that he couldn't leave his iPhone, despite the Nexus being "better" (lol).

 

Even you guys can't leave iOS products... But owning them does not make you any less troll/shill.

post #54 of 156

I think the quote or the phrase was misused. By "flat" he means no 3D space. Mac OS is full of weird places where there's 3D space, like the dock, and then there is App Store and iTunes where the space is "flat." Flat doesn't mean Windows 8.

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post #55 of 156
I see many people rallying against skeuomorphism with blanket statements. They are useful but they need to be used appropriately. A general rule of thumb is if you can easily pick out the skeuomorph then it's done wrong. The page turning effect and highlighter appearance in iBooks are what I call ideal examples of great skeuomorphism. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that needs to go and I would wager that most complaining about the faux-leather and stitching never even considered those as skeuomorphs. Notes on the iPad is a mixed bag for me with the stitching and torn paper being too much but the yellow-lined paper and the irregular red pencil mark around the current note bring a decent amount of familiarity to the functionality, even though I can see it all being cleaned in the future (example here).

Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

Nonsense! UI design IS functionality! Copy and Paste is UI functionality.......just to name one of a gazillion......swipe to unlock is UI functionality. and so on and so on.......

This can be looked at two ways. There is the first definition of functionality, which follows your comment: "the quality of being suited to serve a purpose well; practicality." That not only dictates the function is served but that a more subtle and harder to quantify aspect is also being accounted for. We've seen this for decades with people saying that Dell PCs are just as good as Macs all the way to this Android phone being better than the iPhone simply by posting some HW specs or feature without any regard for how well it actually functions for the user.

TS's usage uses a more strict and spartan definition: "the purpose that something is designed or expected to fulfill." I doubt anyone would say that good or bad UI design can not drastically add or take away from the functionality which, to me, means that it would then make good UI design something that culminate in better functionality but that is not, by design, functionality itself. Consider this scenario, you buy two doors that are exactly the same. In one you drill the holes and place the HW for the knob in the expected area; the area that a normal human being would have the best access to grab and the handle. In the other you place it 6" off the ground. The general functionality of the door is still exactly the same but one has a much more ideal method for the user to interface with it.

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post #56 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarenDino View Post

Never mind pissballing about with this, where is my effing Mac Pro?????

Where did you last see it? Oh you mean the new one, they flattened that too, it's called an iMac now. The new Mac Pro won't arrive before Ivy Bridge EP (Q3 2013), July at the earliest but possibly a launch at WWDC in June. Unless Intel decides to release Haswell early (aka when they were supposed to release them in the first place), there might be no new Macs until at least June. Until then all we have to talk about are baseless rumours and whatever Samsung's up to.

I'm not sure that people noticed the tell-tale "People familiar with" phrase as well as "according to the people close to the company" as in not employees. This doesn't really provide much new information on anything guessed by Forstall leaving.

"Overall, they expect any changes to be pretty conservative." This basically means that if nothing changes, their rumour still counts as valid because they said changes would be minimal. What if nothing changes and it means Ive approves of all the fake leather?
post #57 of 156
Coming in July '14 and it's called iOS/OS 1.0
post #58 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

Check this out via Gruber:

 

http://hypercritical.co/2013/03/08/the-case-for-a-true-mac-pro-successor

Very inspirational reading - that from the perspective of a Mac Pro owner.

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post #59 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

 

In my business, the printing industry, flat means dull and lifeless. I hope that's not the direction that Ive plans to move towards.


 

'Flat' is easier then Apple saying they are pushing for a 'Thermography Design'... 1biggrin.gif

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post #60 of 156

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 7/23/13 at 9:42am
post #61 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I see many people rallying against skeuomorphism with blanket statements. They are useful but they need to be used appropriately. A general rule of thumb is if you can easily pick out the skeuomorph then it's done wrong. The page turning effect and highlighter appearance in iBooks are what I call ideal examples of great skeuomorphism. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that needs to go and I would wager that most complaining about the faux-leather and stitching never even considered those as skeuomorphs. Notes on the iPad is a mixed bag for me with the stitching and torn paper being too much but the yellow-lined paper and the irregular red pencil mark around the current note bring a decent amount of familiarity to the functionality, even though I can see it all being cleaned in the future (example here).
This can be looked at two ways. There is the first definition of functionality, which follows your comment: "the quality of being suited to serve a purpose well; practicality." That not only dictates the function is served but that a more subtle and harder to quantify aspect is also being accounted for. We've seen this for decades with people saying that Dell PCs are just as good as Macs all the way to this Android phone being better than the iPhone simply by posting some HW specs or feature without any regard for how well it actually functions for the user.

TS's usage uses a more strict and spartan definition: "the purpose that something is designed or expected to fulfill." I doubt anyone would say that good or bad UI design can not drastically add or take away from the functionality which, to me, means that it would then make good UI design something that culminate in better functionality but that is not, by design, functionality itself. Consider this scenario, you buy two doors that are exactly the same. In one you drill the holes and place the HW for the knob in the expected area; the area that a normal human being would have the best access to grab and the handle. In the other you place it 6" off the ground. The general functionality of the door is still exactly the same but one has a much more ideal method for the user to interface with it.

Thanks SolipismX...but TS statement was not factual nor did it even make sense. UI is functionality......The User Interface is by definition all the functionality a device has....the software (UI) controls the hardware. So all of the interaction on a device from human hands is in the UI. How can this not control the functionality of the device? That statement TS made "How is UI design 'functionality'? is so vague it does not make sense..... 

Link from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface

Edit: Excerpt from Wiki:"Generally, the goal of human-machine interaction engineering is to produce a user interface which makes it easy, efficient, and enjoyable to operate a machine in the way which produces the desired result. This generally means that the operator needs to provide minimal input to achieve the desired output, and also that the machine minimizes undesired outputs to the human."

 

Sounds like functionality....


Edited by geekdad - 3/21/13 at 7:42pm

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post #62 of 156

Wow - so many experts on UI design here.

 

It would be funny if Apple folks were in fact discussing how to achieve a flat organization, which would allow hardware and software engineers to see what the other is up to without management approval every step of the way. This would be consistent with the hardware team showing their prototypes earlier.

post #63 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

Wow - so many experts on UI design here.

 

It would be funny if Apple folks were in fact discussing how to achieve a flat organization, which would allow hardware and software engineers to see what the other is up to without management approval every step of the way. This would be consistent with the hardware team showing their prototypes earlier.

that makes so much sense....

Tallest Skil:


"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse"

"The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."


 


 

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Tallest Skil:


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"The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."


 


 

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post #64 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

that makes so much sense....


More than you'd want to admit. But the real point is that you lot are debating so passionately over something you know so little about. Much ado about nothing at its exemplary best.

post #65 of 156

To make a design essential (which I think is Jony Ive's preference) you need to know what the thing is trying to do. This only really comes in to play when you're talking about specific apps. An "application" is by definition trying to do something with the device. So I think they will focus on doing app by app redesign rather than sitting down and trying to draw up a new standard set of controls or some such. The new Podcast app looks like it might be the first one they did.

post #66 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

Thanks SolipismX...but TS statement was not factual nor did it even make sense. UI is functionality......The User Interface is by definition all the functionality a device has....the software (UI) controls the hardware. So all of the interaction on a device from human hands is in the UI. How can this not control the functionality of the device? That statement TS made "How is UI design 'functionality'? is so vague it does not make sense..... 

Link from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface

Edit: Excerpt from Wiki:"
Generally, the goal of human-machine interaction engineering is to produce a user interface which makes it easy, efficient, and enjoyable to operate a machine in the way which produces the desired result. This generally means that the operator needs to provide minimal input to achieve the desired output, and also that the machine minimizes undesired outputs to the human."


Sounds like functionality....

Not that he qualified his comment to say UI design, not simply UI. You could say that primary UI of the iPhone is the touchscreen. You put elements on the display to indicate that an area can interact with the system, and then label them appropriately so the user knows what they are. I think it's clear he would agree with that and I think it's clear from his comment that he's not referring to the patent or any other HW, OS, drives, or API features in regards to how those are designed. This thread's article is even about a rumoured 'flat design' of the UI, hence my previous reply. I thought his comment was very clear.

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post #67 of 156

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

In my business, the printing industry, flat means dull and lifeless. I hope that's not the direction that Ive plans to move towards.

 

Then be sure to avoid making flat and dull designs. The UI has nothing to do with your productivity and final outputs.

 

I don't get it. Your insult doesn't work with his post. You'd have to stop reading halfway through and completely ignore the fact that he's talking about how we don't know what the hell Ive means by "flat."

post #68 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

To make a design essential (which I think is Jony Ive's preference) you need to know what the thing is trying to do. This only really comes in to play when you're talking about specific apps. An "application" is by definition trying to do something with the device. So I think they will focus on doing app by app redesign rather than sitting down and trying to draw up a new standard set of controls or some such. The new Podcast app looks like it might be the first one they did.

Good observation.

post #69 of 156

I hope Ives know what he's doing. Did he ever do software before? This news will make geeks and media dance, but if the interface is too flat, there will be a loud complaint about that. The iOS is iconic already. 

post #70 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

Thanks SolipismX...but TS statement was not factual nor did it even make sense. UI is functionality......The User Interface is by definition all the functionality a device has....the software (UI) controls the hardware. So all of the interaction on a device from human hands is in the UI. How can this not control the functionality of the device? That statement TS made "How is UI design 'functionality'? is so vague it does not make sense..... 

Link from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface

Edit: Excerpt from Wiki:"Generally, the goal of human-machine interaction engineering is to produce a user interface which makes it easy, efficient, and enjoyable to operate a machine in the way which produces the desired result. This generally means that the operator needs to provide minimal input to achieve the desired output, and also that the machine minimizes undesired outputs to the human."

 

Sounds like functionality....

This is an example of Wikipedia not being entirely reliable. The general goal of HMI is to produce a UI to operate a machine in the way which produces the desired result. Ease of use and efficiency may or may not essential objectives. But they are not attributes that define basic HMI.

post #71 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

Wow - so many experts on UI design here.

It would be funny if Apple folks were in fact discussing how to achieve a flat organization, which would allow hardware and software engineers to see what the other is up to without management approval every step of the way. This would be consistent with the hardware team showing their prototypes earlier.

That's more or less how I read it.

I don't get the fascination with making the UI follow Windows footsteps. I can't stand that design philosophy.
post #72 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

I hope Ives know what he's doing. Did he ever do software before? This news will make geeks and media dance, but if the interface is too flat, there will be a loud complaint about that. 

Jobs didn't program either.

post #73 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

The new Podcast app looks like it might be the first one they did.

And the Podcast app features skeumoorphism.

It can be done right.
post #74 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post


That's more or less how I read it.

I don't get the fascination with making the UI follow Windows footsteps. I can't stand that design philosophy.

I understand, share the concern, although it is noteworthy that Metro earned lots of kudos initially.

 

More importantly, Apple and Ive have shown that they have their own take of minimalist design. Not easy to predict how they can distinguish themselves when there is no "material" choice to play with. Nevertheless, I look forward to finding out.

post #75 of 156

I find the visual design of both OSX and IOS increasingly tired. Tired and confused. Not just in terms of visual design, but also in terms of functionality. Case in point - how do you quit iPhoto and how do quit Safari? iPhoto has adopted the Windows' way which I have to say I have always preferred in spite of Cmd-Q now being hardwired into my hand finger muscle memory. I have less problems with OSX than IOS but I look forward to a more cohesive look throughout OSX.

 

I am not a fan of the Win8 design. It looks pretty enough but it lacks sophistication. I am certain Ive will approach 'flattening' out OSX/IOS in a much more thoughtful and precise manner.  'Flat' is useful as a broad design category but in and of itself it does not imply 'good' or 'bad'. In my book the challenge of creating really good minimalist design is much harder than a 'realistic' approach, or one that uses skeuomorphic design elements as in OSX. There is less to hide behind and the importance of precision and subtlety is key. 

 

I have no idea what will come but what I am sure of is that minimalist design does not implicitly mean only shades of grey, and the removal of 'fun'. And as has been pointed out many times - skeuomorphic design is not by and of itself bad. Sometimes it is fun. Stitched leather, however, IS bad. Really really bad,

post #76 of 156

According to the WSJ Ive and Greg Christie (VP of Human Interface) have "very different styles".  Not sure if they mean personality wise or in terms of UI direction.  Since Christie reports to Federighi and not Ive I wonder how much direction he'll take from Ive.

 

I'm curious to know more about these 'stealth' software designers that assisted with hardware prototypes.  Did they work for Forstall or Federighi?

post #77 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

 

I don't get it. Your insult doesn't work with his post. You'd have to stop reading halfway through and completely ignore the fact that he's talking about how we don't know what the hell Ive means by "flat."

 

I think he posted without knowing exactly what I meant. I, too, do not know exactly what Jony Ive is referring to by using the term "flat" but if I apply the vernacular from my business, flat is non-dynamical or without emotion. I hope I don't know what I'm talking about, if you know what I mean.

 

 

Edit: I was a big boy, did my own homework and learned that flat UI design is pretty much the opposite of skeuomorphic design. So does this mean Jony is taking flat UI design cues from Microsoft's Metro.....and Android?


Edited by Dickprinter - 3/21/13 at 9:10pm

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post #78 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

I think he posted without knowing exactly what I meant. I, too, do not know exactly what Jony Ive is referring to by using the term "flat" but if I apply the vernacular from my business, flat is non-dynamical or without emotion. I hope I don't know what I'm talking about, if you know what I mean.
I guess 'flat' could mean dead and featureless as a negative descriptive term, but in terms of a design 'style' it means less use of drop shadows, outlines (specially high contrast ones), less graduated and textured areas, and more of a two dimensional flat look. It's not exactly new. Drop shadows come under the umbrella of skeuomorphic design and are looked at as very 'old school' by many designers (for the last 20 years or so!)
post #79 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Tasked with overseeing Apple's human interface efforts, Senior Vice President of Industrial Design Jony Ive has reportedly brought the company's hardware and mobile software design teams together in a push toward a simpler and more cohesive "flat design," according to a new report.

People familiar with Apple's daily operations told The Wall Street Journal that Ive has been briefing the human interface team on prototypes earlier than usual in hopes of fostering a collaborative environment, and to allow software engineers time to better take advantage of upcoming hardware. The new inter-office dynamic, called "a thawing," is a change from Apple's previous workflow, which largely kept iOS software and hardware designers separate.

Jonathan Ive
Apple SVP of Industrial Design Jony Ive.


Ive, who took over human interface design duties in October after former iOS chief Scott Forstall was ousted in October, is reportedly looking to make Apple's software more in line with his minimalist hardware aesthetic. Developers who have spoken to Apple employees said the new "flat design" will be more simple than the current iteration of iOS, but failed to offer further details.

The publication noted that Ive is now sitting in on human interface design team meetings to add his perspective on new developments, but despite the added input, no drastic modifications to iOS are expected for the near future.

Following Ive's lead, SVP of Software Engineering Craig Federighi is also said to be moving his Mac teams toward a more collaborative process, but that change hasn't been as rapid. Sources claim Federighi plans to keep Mac and iOS teams separate for the time being, though one person expects the two groups to reorganize this summer.

 

 

If flat means Windows 8 crap that is nothing but different size and color post-its the idea sucks. If flat means the iOS and OS X teams work together to produce a common UI with not so much skeuomorphism but still some drop shadows and animation built into core I think we can have a very nice modern UI. If we go to Win8 or Android  minimalist or clutter we are screwed. I don't see Jony going minimalist just for the sake of minimalist. It would not fit to have all square without an easing of the corners, IMHO. But Aqua has seen its day and this mix and match hodge-podge of Aqua, brushed metal, skeuomorphism, and random artsy-fartsy interface is for the birds. One of the best things about the Mac/NeXT machines is you didn't need a manual for the basic 85%, you just new how it worked -- it would be great if more of that crossed over with iOS and OS X so they are not exactly the same but have an identity that says Apple. Microsoft tried this -- just badly.

 

Lets see what Jony Ive has to show us before we guess what flat means, yell come on everyone, stop yelling "Apple is Doomed"! 


Edited by Damn_Its_Hot - 3/21/13 at 9:35pm
post #80 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

I guess 'flat' could mean dead and featureless as a negative descriptive term, but in terms of a design 'style' it means less use of drop shadows, outlines (specially high contrast ones), less graduated and textured areas, and more of a two dimensional flat look. It's not exactly new. Drop shadows come under the umbrella of skeuomorphic design and are looked at as very 'old school' by many designers (for the last 20 years or so!)

Adding to what you're saying here is what I believe is a screenshot of Mac OS X 10.1. Between brushed metal and full blown aqua buttons, as well as the the other attempts to give a raised, 3D effect to items it's just very outdated looking. I remember how impressive it all way when it first came out but it had it's time and served its purpose, and we've seen Apple slowly (and I mean slowly) move away from the most eye-popping efforts.



I've seen it referenced — I think by a forum member on the site — that with much better displays from higher pixel densities, to IPS tech, to brighter backlights, and more accurate color reproduction that the need for these somewhat comical effects have lost their potency and usefulness.

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