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Chromebook pixel count spurs Apple marketing shift - Page 4

post #121 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

Yes, it does, see:

https://github.com/dnschneid/crouton
http://gigaom.com/2013/03/05/video-chromebook-pixel-running-chrome-os-and-linux-simultaneously/

(actually, see the second one first).

As for your second question, I haven't run Linux virtually on the mac, but I HAVE run windows (with both VMWare and Parallels), and there is quite considerable performance degradation, in my experience. The Chromebook supposedly runs linux at native speeds. The LTE is clearly a win (I am typing this in a New York City hotel, where I am using my iPad's hotspot functionality, but this is clunky (and I HAVE to have multiple devices with me). The display hardware is significant for me (I stare at my screen too much, and get tired on lower res devices). Otherwise, I don't disagree, the hardware is pretty generic except for the LTE and screen. 

1) VMs don't degrade performance very much. Modern CPUs have virtualization features built-in that make them excellent options. In fact, many corporate servers are virtual machines that they can seamless move between physical servers without it ever skipping a beat. I'm quite a fan of XenServer and iSCSI specifically for this type of ease of use and redundancy.

2) You inferred that you're running two OSes at the same time on the same HW. That means it has to be a VM if you are actually running two OSes. Crouton clearly shows that you're switching between two UIs for a single OS that is running. That is not two OSes as you can tell by how quickly it launches without any bootstrap or other aspects of the OS loading. It does, however, help prove my earlier point that Chrome OS is built atop a fully accessible Linux substrate.

edit: The Ubbuntu UI is running in its own space (wondered how they were going to deal with that) but it's still running on the same single boot. It's more complex than simply running different GUIs like you can do with Gnome and KDE, but it's not that much different. The changes all look to be made to convert the Linux boot to simply allow the Ubuntu GUI to start as needed. A clever proof-of-concept but it's not going to make waves do to its many shortcomings.

3) What Linux distro has a GUI that is designed for the Chromebook Pixel display at this time? I'd guessing none at this point. This is an area where Linux is likely very slow to move.
Edited by SolipsismX - 3/24/13 at 9:36pm

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post #122 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

I am a bit confused: what does this actually mean, since the device doesn't have 3840x2400 pixels???

It means you can make all the elements on the screen much, much smaller but it'll have the same fuzziness issues with any fractional pixels and use more power to render the non-standard UI.

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post #123 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Just because I didn't comment on it doesn't mean it was ignored. i don't know anything about web development nor did I see anything that would dispute what you said, so I had nothing to add. You're probably right that it's not a good choice for a web developer. You just weren't right about some of your other Chromebook claims.

LOL you fail, dude.  Do you get to demo the products before you market them?  Honest question.  

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post #124 of 193

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Edited by MacRulez - 7/23/13 at 9:44am
post #125 of 193

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Edited by MacRulez - 7/23/13 at 9:44am
post #126 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

 

 

Google once again designs a square peg for a round hole...

Pot is legal in North Korea.
That explains a considerable amount.

"The United States will respond proportionally at a place and time we choose..."
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Pot is legal in North Korea.
That explains a considerable amount.

"The United States will respond proportionally at a place and time we choose..."
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post #127 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

I am a bit confused: what does this actually mean, since the device doesn't have 3840x2400 pixels???

 

Maybe not, but you KNOW it's there, don't you?

 

1wink.gif

Pot is legal in North Korea.
That explains a considerable amount.

"The United States will respond proportionally at a place and time we choose..."
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Pot is legal in North Korea.
That explains a considerable amount.

"The United States will respond proportionally at a place and time we choose..."
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post #128 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

Bought Office for Mac today. See, they offer "the next version for free if you buy now". Got to the offer site. Filled in the code. Found I actually get "one year of Office 360 cloud-based service". Feel cheated.

Me no like new world. Want old world back.

Seems like you got to the other site.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

Bottom line: great for simple tasks, useless for real work.

They put out video guides on how to do things like how to backup a Chromebook, how to setup a Chromebook but the latest ad is the most honest:



Second place in resolution to a Macbook Pro and second place in usefulness to a potato.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post




Google once again designs a square peg for a round hole...

LOL. Good to see it being dropped in the Trash, and not a Recycle Bin
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post #129 of 193

All I'll say is this - I've purchased and have been playing around with the Samsung Chromebook for a few weeks. For anyone who says you can't do "real" work on it, that's like saying the iPad isn't capable of "real" work. WIll it run 100% of every piece of legacy Windows software? No. Will it run EVERYTHING you need or use on a daily basis? Probably not. If you have a need for a traditional PC or Mac, those devices will suit you better than a Chromebook can. However, don't dismiss those who can and do work in a web-only mode.

 

Most of what I use a laptop for involves browsing, documents, social media, video watching, music listening, reading news and play a few games. The Chromebook is absolutely capable of all those things. Need to tweak an image for some reason? It's simple to do with a few web applications. I can download any files to my Google Drive through this machine and have it waiting for me on my PC by the time I get home. For those occasional times where I *need* to use a Windows or Mac app, the free Chrome Remote Desktop lets me remote into my other machines with surprisingly good performance across a LAN and even over the Internet. Plus, I don't have to worry about viruses or accidentally downloading something that will mess it up. It's very Apple-like in the sense that it "just works."

 

The only thing I don't love about this machine is the hardware itself. The keyboard is fantastic to type on, but the screen is horrible compared to IPS displays I've become accustomed to. I love the idea of a high-end Chromebook, and while I think the Pixel is a bit of an extreme, I would absolutely purchase something in the middle if it meant a better screen. Would I give up my desktop PC in favor of the Chromebook? No, of course not. The same is true about an iPad, really. For me, the Chromebook isn't a replacement for my other machines - it's simply another device I use to access my data, like my phone, tablet, and desktop. I've found it has a useful place in my life, and I think people would be surprised how productive you can be doing "real" work on one of these things. If you mostly live and work inside the browser anyway, I'd give one of these things a shot.

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post #130 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Second place in resolution to a Macbook Pro and second place in usefulness to a potato.

You should put that Pixel in the bin we got from GTR


...and call it dogfooding
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post #131 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Somebody please explain this bullshit will you? We were all told that the Retina display resolution was higher than the human eye can detect. Now we have a new spec war going on about pixels and resolution.If these resolutions are higher than the human eye can perceive then what on earth are we arguing about? Is this the same argument we hear from the audiophiles and videophiles about how THEY can hear and see the difference between 128kbps and 256kbps encoding, or the difference between 1080P and 4K? Is this all marketing bullshit? Were we lied to? Is Apple doomed? What? Please tell me! I'm tired of this crap.

What, you didn't hear? Apple's NBT is replacement organs, starting with the iEye, which will offer twice the resolution-perceiving capability of those lame ol' human eyeballs. Samsung is reportedly developing a clone, but it won't be released until they discover exactly what Apple's looks like. MS will develop ones years later--they'll make you blind, but you'll hear a neat clicking noise every time you blink.
post #132 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Nobody chooses a computer based on a single metric, like pixel count. That's like choosing a digital camera based solely on megapixel count, ignoring the optics, storage options, body style, controls, and even other qualities of the sensor. The 13" MacBook Pro Retina is still a fine all-purpose UNIX computer with a great display. I'm debating whether to step up to a 15" MacBook Pro Retina, or just get a 15" non-Retina MBP and save the cash.

If the sales staff at PC World know what they are doing, and its a big if, a single metric or possibly two is precisely how most people buy their computers.  I have seen many a punter down the stores, with blinkered determination, pushing forward with their single minded belief that pixels or Gigs are the make or brake metrics.

post #133 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post

The ChromeBook is a great concept. All it needs is applications. Apple is moving to cloud storage for iTunes and eventually other things. Google will make cloud applications better over time. The benefit of cloud storage for applications is that they all can be updated without the users even having to bother with it. People will have the latest versions all of the time. Viruses shouldn't be a problem with cloud based software.

ChromeBooks will probably move to the Nexus 7 model whereby the devices are cheaper because the prices of applications and other services will become the profit center. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple eventually incorporates that model into it's marketing system. If ChromeBooks do get to the point of being very popular Apple will have to compete in the hardware department price arena. The software might become Apple's profit center.

"Viruses shouldn't be a problem ...." What?!!!! What planet are you from? Where do viruses come from? The web, from connectivity. The only way to keep virus free is disconnect from the world.

 

I'm running cloud-based software right now as I'm typing this sentence into this forum software. There is no cloud-based software that is not the same as the old website software. The term "the cloud" is marketing, not substantive. I've been running cloud software for over 40 years. See, years ago, I was using IBM green screen dumb terminal talking via controllers (via some wires) that were integrating all my keystrokes and then (via some wires) sending the screen as a whole to the IBM 360 across town. Even before that, I was using ASR-33 teletypes to talk via "the cloud" to a computer across campus and even to other campus at a different university. In the 80's we were using cloud-based software, the bulletin-board systems, to talk to colleagues. 

 

Ever hear of enterprise database systems? You know, those big databases by IBM, Oracle, and the like where the databases were located in remote offices. We ran our companies and enterprises via storage "in the cloud". For me that was around 1975 and before. 

 

"The cloud" is old school, way before computers were small enough and cheap enough for a person to own one. "The cloud" is ancient, "the cloud" was how everything worked when computers were first built. 

post #134 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

"Viruses shouldn't be a problem ...." What?!!!! What planet are you from? Where do viruses come from? The web, from connectivity. The only way to keep virus free is disconnect from the world.


He was absolutely correct. Viruses should not be a problem. If you consider Macs to generally be impervious to viruses then the Chromebook certainly is, and even more so.
http://chromespot.com/2013/01/29/chromebooks-virus-free/
Edited by Gatorguy - 3/25/13 at 6:10am
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post #135 of 193

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Edited by MacRulez - 7/23/13 at 9:44am
post #136 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

 

It's a lousy product. There's no way you can create high-end applications for it since you can't actually write native code for it. All it does is run Web Apps inside a browser based OS. It's only good for basic tasks like e-mail, browsing, social interaction or creating basic documents. You can't do anything requiring graphical power (photo or video editing, illustration or even games). It would be useless for web developers since you don't have a way to check your website on multiple browsers for compatibility. You can't code or develop software on it since you're never going to see a Web App compiler (well, they could off-load the compiling to a third party but what programmer is going to trust their code to someone else to compile?).

 

And when you try and rape people $1,300 for a high-end version it's downright stupid. High-end hardware that lacks the software to do any high-end work.

 

Bottom line: great for simple tasks, useless for real work.

You actually can create native-code apps for Google Chrome.  Install Chrome and then play the game "From Dust" in your browser to check it out...  

 

That being said, the Chromebook would still be much more useful if you just installed a real Linux OS on it or something...

post #137 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


He was absolutely correct. Viruses should not be a problem. If you consider Macs to generally be impervious to viruses then the Chromebook certainly is, and even more so.
http://chromespot.com/2013/01/29/chromebooks-virus-free/

 

"Chrome OS is mostly immune to viruses (at least so far). Does this mean it is completely safe, though? Not exactly."

 

Lol. You always spin, don't you?

post #138 of 193

Apple Notebooks are still the highest resolution "notebooks" on the market.  The "Chromebook" is just a web browser with a monitor attached.  It's like saying a Tonka Toy is a serious competitor for a construction site.
 

post #139 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

3) What Linux distro has a GUI that is designed for the Chromebook Pixel display at this time? I'd guessing none at this point. This is an area where Linux is likely very slow to move.

 

KDE can scale quite well, and I've heard of a few people running SUSE w/ KDE on Retina Macbooks.  

 

Ubuntu is going to switch their entire DE from being Compiz and GTK based to being based on Qt 5, and sharing code with their mobile OS, so I would definitely think they're going to take scalability into account.  It's still a few releases away though.  

post #140 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

"Chrome OS is mostly immune to viruses (at least so far). Does this mean it is completely safe, though? Not exactly."

Lol. You always spin, don't you?


Is a Mac any more secure? Nope.

So perhaps explain what part of this you had an issue with:
"He was absolutely correct. Viruses should not be a problem. If you consider Macs to generally be impervious to viruses then the Chromebook certainly is, and even more so."
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post #141 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

 

"Chrome OS is mostly immune to viruses (at least so far). Does this mean it is completely safe, though? Not exactly."

 

Lol. You always spin, don't you?

 

The only danger they talk about is fake websites stealing info from dumb users, not any virus actually running code on your computer.  The only way to avoid phishing is by not being stupid, there's no software to help with that..

post #142 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by icoco3 View Post

Apple Notebooks are still the highest resolution "notebooks" on the market.  The "Chromebook" is just a web browser with a monitor attached.  It's like saying a Tonka Toy is a serious competitor for a construction site.
 

Install SUSE or Ubuntu and you have a serious machine...  

 

But yes, as of right now, the Chromebook pixel isn't a mainstream competitor.  Just a toy for Google fans, and a cool laptop for developers...

 

If they upped the hard drive to 128-256 GB I'd buy one and install a real distro on it (right now have a Thinkpad with Ubuntu)...

post #143 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

He was absolutely correct. Viruses should not be a problem. If you consider Macs to generally be impervious to viruses then the Chromebook certainly is, and even more so.

There's a giant keylogger on there though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo 
For anyone who says you can't do "real" work on it, that's like saying the iPad isn't capable of "real" work.

Offline video editing? Garageband? Also, why would it be ok for a $1299 laptop to be less functional than a $329 tablet?
post #144 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post
 

So perhaps explain what part of this you had an issue with:

The part that I bolded. How exactly was he absolutely correct? When there's "mostly", "at least", "so far", "not exactly" all over the piece you linked.  And oh, he didn't talk anything about a Mac. 

post #145 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

Install SUSE or Ubuntu and you have a serious machine...  

But yes, as of right now, the Chromebook pixel isn't a mainstream competitor.  Just a toy for Google fans, and a cool laptop for developers...

If they upped the hard drive to 128-256 GB I'd buy one and install a real distro on it (right now have a Thinkpad with Ubuntu)...

Why? For only $200 more, you can get an MBP Retina with the best hardware quality in the business, longer battery life, and much faster processor. If you want to install Ubuntu, you can do that.
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post #146 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

 

The only danger they talk about is fake websites stealing info from dumb users, not any virus actually running code on your computer.  The only way to avoid phishing is by not being stupid, there's no software to help with that..

The piece Gaterguy linked to make it very clear he's talking about viruses. Looking at the quote you quoted from me. 

post #147 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

The part that I bolded. How exactly was he absolutely correct? When there's "mostly", "at least", "so far", "not exactly" all over the piece you linked.  And oh, he didn't talk anything about a Mac. 

He said "Viruses should not be a problem". He is absolutely 100% correct. They should not be.

From the link you're cherry-picking specific words from:
"Due to its web-based nature, Chrome OS is mostly immune to viruses (at least so far). Does this mean it is completely safe, though? Not exactly. There are still some precautions to be taken, though not as many as with other computers (including Macs). The only risk Chrome OS users have to keep in mind is phishing.
Edited by Gatorguy - 3/25/13 at 7:19am
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post #148 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


He said "Viruses should not be a problem". That is 100% correct. They should not be...

.. so far. The guy you linked to didn't have "100%" confidence like you. Lol. Man, the spin is so funny.  

 

Or they "mostly" should not be. ;)

post #149 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

He said "Viruses should not be a problem". That is 100% correct. They should not be.

That might be true. Google wants to keep all your confidential information for itself.

Sadly, not enough people realize that turning all of your data over to Google in the interest of security is probably a bad choice.
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post #150 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

That might be true. Google wants to keep all your confidential information for itself.

Sadly, not enough people realize that turning all of your data over to Google in the interest of security is probably a bad choice.

Why? Are Google Cloud services inherently less secure or reliable than Apple Cloud services or Amazon Cloud services or Microsoft Cloud services?

I'm guessing your issue would be with Cloud services itself. Yeah, you are putting trust in the service being available when you need it, and that your files don't disappear.
Edited by Gatorguy - 3/25/13 at 7:33am
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post #151 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

.. so far. The guy you linked to didn't have "100%" confidence like you. Lol. Man, the spin is so funny.  

Or they "mostly" should not be. 1wink.gif

Now you're just playing dumb. . . or I hope so anyway.
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post #152 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Why? Are Google Cloud services inherently less secure or reliable than Apple Cloud services or Amazon Cloud services or Microsoft Cloud services?

I'm guessing your issue would be with Cloud services itself. Yeah, you are putting trust in the service being available when you need it, and that your files don't disappear.

No, the issue is with Google. They can't be trusted any further than you can throw their headquarters.

I don't have any desire to spend the next 20 years fighting off spam from advertisers who received my information from Google.
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post #153 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

No, the issue is with Google. They can't be trusted any further than you can throw their headquarters.

I don't have any desire to spend the next 20 years fighting off spam from advertisers who received my information from Google.

Oh, back to that. . . 1hmm.gif
Figured you knew the facts from FUD by now, as much time as several members spent trying to help you understand the last few times you brought it up.

Nothing to be gained from discussing this again. As you were.
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post #154 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
There's a giant keylogger on there though.
 

No, there isn't. What you're probably referring to is Chrome's included *optional* ability to use Google's servers for advanced spell checking, the same kind they use in Google searches. It is off by default, even if you previously set it on another machine, which means you have to explicitly enable the feature to use it.

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
Offline video editing? Garageband? Also, why would it be ok for a $1299 laptop to be less functional than a $329 tablet?
 

Simple - it excels in other ways the $329 tablet cannot. Multiple browser windows with Mobile Safari? Nope. More than eight tabs open at the same time? Nope. Access to the wealth of browser extensions and apps that exist for Chrome? Nope. To me, browsing on an iPad (I own two by the way) or an Android device is useful in a pinch, but I would *never* consider using those devices for day-to-day work. They're both too limiting for me in that particular scenario.

 

It should be noted that the Pixel includes three years of 1TB of Google Drive storage, which actually costs less than if you just bought that amount of storage over the same period of time. If all you want is the storage, you can buy it at a $300-500 discount and essentially get a free laptop, which isn't too bad of a deal.

 

Regarding those specific examples you gave, as I said, if the Chromebook doesn't suit your needs then it's okay not to get one. I know that my mother has no need for Garageband or any kind of video editing - she just wants a computer that will let her get onto her Facebook and any other website she wants to without having to worry about viruses or accidentally downloading something that will mess up her machine. A Chromebook would be a much better fit for her than a traditional Windows PC or even a Mac. If I'm willing to spend money in the high-end Mac price range anyway, it might be worth it to get a Pixel instead and give her better peace of mind with a gorgeous screen and offsite storage for all of her data.

 

Edit: I forgot that the eight tab limitation is gone since iOS 5.x, but tab organization gets messy after you have a lot of tabs open, and again, no multi-window support to help organize those tabs.

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post #155 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Oh, back to that. . . 1hmm.gif
Figured you knew the facts from FUD by now,

Sure.

FUD: Anything posted by Gatorguy and the other Google shills around here.
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post #156 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Why? For only $200 more, you can get an MBP Retina with the best hardware quality in the business, longer battery life, and much faster processor. If you want to install Ubuntu, you can do that.

Yeah but you could save $200 and go through the following 25+ step process to end up with Linux jammed onto a tiny partition on a Chromebook because the usable stateful partition is much less than the storage in the machine:

http://www.devchronicles.com/2011/10/installing-ubuntu-on-samsung-series-5.html

It's 9GB on the Samsung but one of the Chrome OS software engineers says the Chromebook Pixel can have up to 21GB free and provides a helpful guide on how to replace the OS he works on:

https://plus.google.com/100479847213284361344/posts/QhmBpn5GNE9

The guy in the following video says there's no UI scaling under Linux on the Chromebook Pixel:



but maybe Linus will figure it out without just using a lower resolution (thereby defeating the point of having a high resolution screen):

http://www.geek.com/articles/chips/linus-torvalds-is-making-the-chromebook-pixel-his-primary-laptop-2013036/

You do get a whole 4GB of RAM with the Chromebook that can't be upgraded and USB 2 ports to allow you to expand it with slow storage and 5 hours of battery life.

Wait, Google has explained all these design decisions:



This is a laptop... no it's not
This is a computer?... not really
How do I do stuff?... you can do everything on the web
So I can throw this thing into a river... now we're getting somewhere and it's light(ish) so you have no problem throwing it
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo 
I know that my mother has no need for Garageband or any kind of video editing - she just wants a computer that will let her get onto her Facebook and any other website she wants to without having to worry about viruses or accidentally downloading something that will mess up her machine.

Sure but there are a lot of limits like no USB printing or importing photos from a camera over USB. While some limits apply to the iPad again, this is a $1300 machine.

I actually think this would be fine if it came with Android and cost $500. I don't get why Google insists on bothering with Chrome OS. Is it the malware thing maybe or the update thing?
post #157 of 193
@ waldobushman, Marvin, matrix07 and jragosta,

The comment that viruses shouldn't be an issue is correct. This goes for all sorts of malware, just like with Mac OS X. Why are we ignoring that the absolute "won't ever be an issue" wasn't used, something that is said by the dissenters (see Haggar for examples) about Mac OS X despite that not ever being stated anyone reasonable. I see absolutely no warping of the facts here. Whether you trust Google to protect your data is another security issue altogether but it's not a virus.
Edited by SolipsismX - 3/25/13 at 10:29am

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post #158 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Sure.

FUD: Anything posted by Gatorguy and the other Google shills around here.

...and back to that too. I always consider it evidence I've won the debate when the dishonest name-calling starts. I sometimes think you've forgotten how to construct a proper argument and how to recognize when what you do have to say is fallacious. Here's an easy-read reminder:

http://www.csun.edu/~hcpas003/argument.html
Edited by Gatorguy - 3/25/13 at 10:21am
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post #159 of 193
Does Chrome OS have standard security controls:
  • Secure Boot Chain
  • Address Space Layout Randomization (ASLR)
  • Application Sandboxing
  • Code Signing
  • File System Encryption
post #160 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

Does Chrome OS have standard security controls:
  • Secure Boot Chain
  • Address Space Layout Randomization (ASLR)
  • Application Sandboxing
  • Code Signing
  • File System Encryption

It's hard (for me) to say but there does seem to be a great deal of these features simply from being built atop Linux. Here is a list reagrding Chromium, which may or may be the same as with Google's implementation of Chrome OS: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/wiki/SystemHardeningFeatures

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