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Chromebook pixel count spurs Apple marketing shift - Page 5

post #161 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

It's hard (for me) to say but there does seem to be a great deal of these features simply from being built atop Linux. Here is a list reagrding Chromium, which may or may be the same as with Google's implementation of Chrome OS: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/wiki/SystemHardeningFeatures

Those features are only available if implemented. The vast majority of the security features listed indicate that testing is needed, in which case the feature effectively isn't implemented.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that anti-virus is not necessary. In fact, Google's other major operating system which is also Linux-based strongly suggests otherwise.
Edited by MacBook Pro - 3/25/13 at 10:46am
post #162 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

Those features are only available if implemented. The vast majority of the security features listed indicate that testing is needed, in which case the feature effectively isn't implemented.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that anti-virus is not necessary. In fact, Google's other major operating system which is also Linux-based strongly suggests otherwise.

Sure, but Apple implemented anti-virus measures with their Xprotect but I wouldn't call that the same as needing a constantly running anti-virus and anti-malware app like with Windows, especially during the WinXP days. Nor do these security features mean that there are viruses or malware present or not. I think it was only with iOS 6.0 that ASLR was implemented down to the kernel level and yet we didn't have rampant viruses and malware in iOS before that point.

Again, Chromium is the open source version of Chrome OS so we don't know if Chrome OS has any of these implemented and tested for the HW its on, and I don't think it's appropriate to simply pigeonhole it to that it doesn't because it's Google. Android isn't a good example because it's inherently different from Chrome OS. Just look at the app stores between the two. Chrome OS is functionally closer to iOS in how it's apps are sandboxed than it is to Android. I see absolutely no way one can say Chrome OS is like Android OS simply because they are both from Google.

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #163 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

Does Chrome OS have standard security controls:
  • Secure Boot Chain
  • Address Space Layout Randomization (ASLR)
  • Application Sandboxing
  • Code Signing
  • File System Encryption

Nearly everything you want to know about Chrome OS security features can be found here. It's a little old so there's been further improvements since:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://dhanus.mit.edu/ChromeOSSecurity.pdf

In a nutshell the operating systems is freshly downloaded at each boot to make sure the user has the most recent improvements and security features. In addition the OS is verified at each start-up to help ensure it hasn't been tampered with. User data to and from Google is encrypted.

It looks to be at least as secure as any other consumer OS, including anything from Apple, and more secure than most IMHO.
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post #164 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


The guy in the following video says there's no UI scaling under Linux on the Chromebook Pixel:
 

 

KDE has UI scaling....  Gnome doesn't however (what the reviewer was using).

post #165 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post


Those features are only available if implemented. The vast majority of the security features listed indicate that testing is needed, in which case the feature effectively isn't implemented.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that anti-virus is not necessary. In fact, Google's other major operating system which is also Linux-based strongly suggests otherwise.

 

Seeing as how every tab in Chrome is sand-boxed, that arbitrary code can't be run on Chrome OS, and that to install anything natively on the machine you need to switch it to dev mode and go through an entire process in itself...,  I'd say Chrome OS is going to be pretty secure...  

post #166 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

Those features are only available if implemented. The vast majority of the security features listed indicate that testing is needed, in which case the feature effectively isn't implemented.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that anti-virus is not necessary.

Of course there is. Where would that virus live on a Chromebook? It's as unlikely to be impacted by a virus as your Mac and much easier to get rid of it it ever did happen. AFAIK the OS downloads fresh at every boot, washing away device system changes that didn't come directly from Google. Not even your Mac or iOS device does that.
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post #167 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Nearly everything you want to know about Chrome OS security features can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://dhanus.mit.edu/ChromeOSSecurity.pdf

Since it was first introduced there's been a few areas further improved and identified holes closed as they're found. in addition the operating systems is freshly downloaded, and the OS verified to be tamper-free. That means users always have the most recent security updates. It looks to be at least as secure as any other consumer OS, including anything from Apple, and more secure than most IMHO.

Since the apps are all using webcode and the UI is based on Google's Chrome OS which is spends a lot of money and time securing I'd say that Chrome OS is probably one of the, if not most, secure OSes on the market today… at least when you subtract what Google could be doing with your personal data, which I know that many here will see as worse than having malware from Eastern Europe or China running around on your system, but I think that's very extreme.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #168 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


That might be true. Google wants to keep all your confidential information for itself.

Sadly, not enough people realize that turning all of your data over to Google in the interest of security is probably a bad choice.


I do turn over all of my data to iCloud, Steam, Blizzard, Google etc. I don't really have a choice, especially in the case of Blizzard and Steam. It's not like I can use their stuff without the "f____g cloud", right?

Also, see my previous rant about MS forcing Office 360 down my throat by selling me "the next update to Office", which is not Office 2013 as you'd expect!

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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post #169 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Of course there is. Where would that virus live on a Chromebook? It's as unlikely to be impacted by a virus as your Mac and much easier to get rid of it it ever did happen. AFAIK the OS downloads fresh at every boot, washing away device system changes that didn't come directly from Google. Not even your Mac or iOS device does that.


Not really sure I want that though. Pretty sure I don't, actually. Then again, I'm more the kind of people to run a Linux or Mac box than a Chrome box ^^

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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post #170 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

 

KDE has UI scaling....  Gnome doesn't however (what the reviewer was using).


Of course they don't, they're nazis, I read.

 

http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/open-sauce/9680-interface-nazis-in-torvalds-line-of-fire

 

Sometimes, Torvalds just as cocky as SJ, isn't he? :p

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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post #171 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

 

No, there isn't. What you're probably referring to is Chrome's included *optional* ability to use Google's servers for advanced spell checking, the same kind they use in Google searches. It is off by default, even if you previously set it on another machine, which means you have to explicitly enable the feature to use it.

 

 

You sure don't use Google+ often, at least in public :p

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post #172 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Since the apps are all using webcode and the UI is based on Google's Chrome OS which is spends a lot of money and time securing I'd say that Chrome OS is probably one of the, if not most, secure OSes on the market today… at least when you subtract what Google could be doing with your personal data, which I know that many here will see as worse than having malware from Eastern Europe or China running around on your system, but I think that's very extreme.

I would argue the opposite.

  • Much of the security scheme relies upon frequent rebooting but pattern of user behavior suggest this is a poor idea.
  • What prevents code execution at the kernel?
  • What prevents the presentation of an alternate operating system in developer mode?
  • Is the verified boot encrypted during transport?
  • Since the cryptographic key is changed every four years but resides in the EEPROM then how is the key changed or does the user recycle the system? If the EEPROM can be changed then this isn't as secure as suggested.
  • Why isn't all user data encrypted?
  • If the web apps are Flash-based or Java based then there may be significant vulnerabilities in a system that relies completely on web apps.
  • The operating system uses web apps implying that a persistent Internet connection is required which offers serious threats that aren't otherwise present necessarily.


Overall, the operating system is well protected but user data is quite vulnerable compared to competing systems. There is no protection for the Master Boot Record and thus no prevention of user data corruption, no prevention of data execution on the kernel, no default encryption of user data.
post #173 of 193
Sure but there are a lot of limits like no USB printing or importing photos from a camera over USB. While some limits apply to the iPad again, this is a $1300 machine.

I actually think this would be fine if it came with Android and cost $500. I don't get why Google insists on bothering with Chrome OS. Is it the malware thing maybe or the update thing?

 

If you're sticking on about price, Apple sells a 128gb Wifi+LTE model iPad for $929, which isn't too far away from $1299. Just like the iPad, the Chromebook has a range of prices, albeit much more extreme.

 

To your other points, printing on a Chromebook is solved using Google Cloud Print, which enables you to use a shared printer from another device, like your home desktop computer, or by using a network connected printer that supports Cloud Print natively. Many newer printers from HP and others support this technology, which is similar to Apple's Air Print. Regarding photos, you can import photos via USB or SD Card if your device supports mounting as an external storage device. It's true that you can't import photos directly from an iPhone or Android 4.x phone, but with services like Google+ and Dropbox automatic photo importing, you almost don't need to in most cases. Apple's own Photo Stream solution is an example of no longer needing to import your stuff with a cable. Plus, that feature could be added to the Chromebook sometime in the future.

 

As to your last point, Google *does* sell a Nexus 7 and Nexus 10 tablet, ranging from $199-399, which runs Android, and the Nexus 10 has the same Retina-quality screen found in higher end tablets. I don't know the reason why Google has two operating systems, but after using a Nexus 7 and a Samsung Chromebook, I completely understand why they are engineered the way they are. Android is optimized for touch, while Chrome is optimized for a keyboard and mouse. I don't think running Android on this laptop would be a great experience, since that OS and its apps were designed with touch in mind. Chrome on Android lacks parity with the Desktop version, missing a lot of essential features like extensions and performance. Besides, by adding the complexity of Android, you lose what is the essential benefit of Chrome OS - it is a stateless operating system. My Chromebook can be nuked and reinstalled with a fresh OS, or I could sign in for the first time on a friend's Chromebook, and I'd be back up and running with all of my apps, extensions, settings and data within minutes of logging in. You can't say that about almost every consumer OS out there.

 

If you want a perfect example of why I don't think Chrome OS and Android should ever mix, look no further than Windows 8.

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post #174 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post


I would argue the opposite.

  • Much of the security scheme relies upon frequent rebooting but pattern of user behavior suggest this is a poor idea.
  • What prevents code execution at the kernel?
  • What prevents the presentation of an alternate operating system in developer mode?
  • Is the verified boot encrypted during transport?
  • Since the cryptographic key is changed every four years but resides in the EEPROM then how is the key changed or does the user recycle the system? If the EEPROM can be changed then this isn't as secure as suggested.
  • Why isn't all user data encrypted?
  • If the web apps are Flash-based or Java based then there may be significant vulnerabilities in a system that relies completely on web apps.
  • The operating system uses web apps implying that a persistent Internet connection is required which offers serious threats that aren't otherwise present necessarily.

  • Overall, the operating system is well protected but user data is quite vulnerable compared to competing systems. There is no protection for the Master Boot Record and thus no prevention of user data corruption, no prevention of data execution on the kernel, no default encryption of user dat

 

Trying to dissect your points here.

  • Not sure I understand what you're suggesting. I only have to reboot my Chromebook if it gets an update or I want to start over with a fresh session.
  • I'm no crypto wizard, but I believe the Kernel only runs signed code from Google. The Chromebook uses a verified boot which makes sure every link in the chain is genuine and hasn't been tampered with. Unless we get to your next point...
  • Developer mode essentially means turning off the verified boot protections. You're now on part with most, if not all, Windows 7 and earlier PCs. Microsoft did not support verified boot until Windows 8, and like Chromebooks, gives the user the ability to turn it off in order to install alternative operating systems. If you turn off the security, the ownness is on YOU to keep your machine safe.
  • Dunno the specifics of verified boot, but feel free to read all about it on the Chromium OS site: http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/verified-boot
  • Certificates are renewed every few years largely in policy, not because they technically or physically stop working. An expired SSL certificate, for example, is as strong as it was the day it was issued, and still provides security and authentication. So, presumably, this is a non-issue. Chromebooks will continue to be supported for as long as Google wants supports them.
  • All users data *IS* encrypted. By default, each user has their local data encrypted with the help of a TPM module installed in every device. Any data being sent to a web service, like Facebook or Twitter, is on the responsibility of those services, which is true for any service on any platform. Feel free to read up on Chromium OS's security overview here: http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/security-overview
  • Chrome OS ships with a sandboxed version of Flash, which is automatically updated to the latest version as it's made available. This is a more favorable scenario than most PCs or Macs with Flash installed, where the plugin may not be sandboxed or always up to date. Google has worked closely with Adobe over the last few years to make sandboxing of flash within Chrome possible. Java is not available for Chrome OS. Besides, most web applications are moving away from Flash and Java towards HTML5 apps.
  • Chrome OS works offline, but is best when you are always online. That's true of nearly every PC and Mac out there. How useful is a computer without an internet connection to most people? Probably not very. Again, there are PCs out there with persistent internet connections that have malware running on them unbeknownst to the user, while Chrome OS has all the security checks in place to help ensure the system is clean. Worst case, the Chromebook will simply refuse to boot until you download a new image directly from Google and reinstall from scratch.

 

You're concern at the end is largely FUD. Again, read up on the security that Chrome OS has built into place. Regarding user data, most of your data is going to live on a cloud service anyway. Google integrates Google Drive into the OS, which works like a remote network drive for your Chromebook. Thus, if your Chromebook was damaged or stolen, no data stored on Drive would be affected. You can also use other cloud storage systems, like Dropbox, Bitcasa, and Box to store and access your data through their web apps as well. The only data at risk would be local downloads that haven't been transferred or backed up somewhere else, but isn't that true of every other computer out there?

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post #175 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

...and back to that too. I always consider it evidence I've won the debate when the dishonest name-calling starts. I sometimes think you've forgotten how to construct a proper argument and how to recognize when what you do have to say is fallacious. Here's an easy-read reminder:

http://www.csun.edu/~hcpas003/argument.html

No, it's simply not worth arguing with you because you simply change the argument and then run and hide after you lose.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #176 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo 
It should be noted that the Pixel includes three years of 1TB of Google Drive storage, which actually costs less than if you just bought that amount of storage over the same period of time. If all you want is the storage, you can buy it at a $300-500 discount and essentially get a free laptop, which isn't too bad of a deal.

Except when that 3 years runs out, they charge $50/month so you'll have 1TB of stuff on the Cloud and have to pay to keep it there vs having a 1TB USB 3 HDD for $80.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

If you're sticking on about price, Apple sells a 128gb Wifi+LTE model iPad for $929, which isn't too far away from $1299. Just like the iPad, the Chromebook has a range of prices, albeit much more extreme.

The LTE Chromebook starts at $1449 and only has 64GB of storage. So really, it's $829 (64GB LTE iPad) vs $1449 - iPad is $620 cheaper and more functional.

It's odd how price doesn't seem to be a big issue and yet Android phones are usually promoted as being a fraction of the price of iPhones. Seems to be selective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

Android is optimized for touch, while Chrome is optimized for a keyboard and mouse.

So you're saying the touch features on the Chromebook are not an optimal implementation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

Besides, by adding the complexity of Android, you lose what is the essential benefit of Chrome OS - it is a stateless operating system. My Chromebook can be nuked and reinstalled with a fresh OS, or I could sign in for the first time on a friend's Chromebook, and I'd be back up and running with all of my apps, extensions, settings and data within minutes of logging in. You can't say that about almost every consumer OS out there.

I'm pretty sure I can import all my browser settings into another machine pretty quickly and double-click install a bunch of extensions as well as login to say a Dropbox file store. The problem is, that's a tiny fraction of what a computer with a proper OS can be used for and this machine switching scenario really isn't that common. Why even buy a $1300 laptop if you plan to be jumping to other computers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

If you want a perfect example of why I don't think Chrome OS and Android should ever mix, look no further than Windows 8.

Windows 8 is a mashup of a desktop OS and a mobile OS. Android Chrome would be a mashup of a mobile OS and a browser, which it already has. It would effectively be Android with just webapps. iOS was originally designed to only run webapps and wasn't a popular idea for the same reasons.

The video above ran Android on the Chromebook via USB and it looked fine, which is a good demo of its scalability even if some things weren't quite right. If Android has issues with security, automatic updates and syncing then the solution is not to build a separate OS that fixes those problems by effectively being just a browser but instead to actually just fix those problems with Android and manage a single OS that scales and syncs across multiple devices and platforms while maintaining security.
post #177 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

 

I am a bit confused: what does this actually mean, since the device doesn't have 3840x2400 pixels???

It does what it says on the tin. You get 3840x2400 pixels on a screen that has 2880x1800. :) http://imgur.com/QsQF3yb

post #178 of 193
Originally Posted by brisance View Post
http://imgur.com/QsQF3yb

 

I will never understand people who fullscreen the Internet. lol.gif

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

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post #179 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

Trying to dissect your points here.
  • Not sure I understand what you're suggesting. I only have to reboot my Chromebook if it gets an update or I want to start over with a fresh session.
  • I'm no crypto wizard, but I believe the Kernel only runs signed code from Google. The Chromebook uses a verified boot which makes sure every link in the chain is genuine and hasn't been tampered with. Unless we get to your next point...
  • Developer mode essentially means turning off the verified boot protections. You're now on part with most, if not all, Windows 7 and earlier PCs. Microsoft did not support verified boot until Windows 8, and like Chromebooks, gives the user the ability to turn it off in order to install alternative operating systems. If you turn off the security, the ownness is on YOU to keep your machine safe.
  • Dunno the specifics of verified boot, but feel free to read all about it on the Chromium OS site: http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/verified-boot
  • Certificates are renewed every few years largely in policy, not because they technically or physically stop working. An expired SSL certificate, for example, is as strong as it was the day it was issued, and still provides security and authentication. So, presumably, this is a non-issue. Chromebooks will continue to be supported for as long as Google wants supports them.
  • All users data *IS* encrypted. By default, each user has their local data encrypted with the help of a TPM module installed in every device. Any data being sent to a web service, like Facebook or Twitter, is on the responsibility of those services, which is true for any service on any platform. Feel free to read up on Chromium OS's security overview here: http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/security-overview
  • Chrome OS ships with a sandboxed version of Flash, which is automatically updated to the latest version as it's made available. This is a more favorable scenario than most PCs or Macs with Flash installed, where the plugin may not be sandboxed or always up to date. Google has worked closely with Adobe over the last few years to make sandboxing of flash within Chrome possible. Java is not available for Chrome OS. Besides, most web applications are moving away from Flash and Java towards HTML5 apps.
  • Chrome OS works offline, but is best when you are always online. That's true of nearly every PC and Mac out there. How useful is a computer without an internet connection to most people? Probably not very. Again, there are PCs out there with persistent internet connections that have malware running on them unbeknownst to the user, while Chrome OS has all the security checks in place to help ensure the system is clean. Worst case, the Chromebook will simply refuse to boot until you download a new image directly from Google and reinstall from scratch.

You're concern at the end is largely FUD. Again, read up on the security that Chrome OS has built into place. Regarding user data, most of your data is going to live on a cloud service anyway. Google integrates Google Drive into the OS, which works like a remote network drive for your Chromebook. Thus, if your Chromebook was damaged or stolen, no data stored on Drive would be affected. You can also use other cloud storage systems, like Dropbox, Bitcasa, and Box to store and access your data through their web apps as well. The only data at risk would be local downloads that haven't been transferred or backed up somewhere else, but isn't that true of every other computer out there?

I already knew the answers. Since some posters do not seem to understand the inherent flaws of Google Chrome OS I will explicitly state them, not in my words but in the words of Google employees and several MIT computer science students.

"Chrome has an Auto-login option that allows the user to stay logged on constantly, even over multiple boots." (2)

"If the Chromebook gets misplaced or stolen, all of that users data on the cloud will be accessible to whoever holds the Chromebook" (2)

"Chrome OS claims that it does not need any anti-malware software; however, this claim is not necessarily
true." (2)

"It may also be possible to modify the user data." (2)

"... an attacker might be able to secretly install a malicious plug-in without the users knowledge." (2)

"... change the users setting to go to “attacker.com as its homepage" (2)

"the default is only to encrypt the password and not necessarily the synced user data." (2)

"It's important to note that at no point is the system restricted to code from the Chromium project..." (1)

"... because the web is more open and connected, one may argue that is is less secure than physical computers." (2)

"... stealing passwords through phishing attacks, etc. is currently easier than stealing physical hard drives or breaking the cryptography" (2)

"If an attacker manages to obtain a users password, the attacker can easily access all the data without even needing to have the physical computer." (2)

"By design, verified boot only runs on boot. However, it is possible to always avoid rebooting the computer." (2)

"... It's important to note that at no point is the system restricted to code from the Chromium project." (2)

"... Chrome OS does not try to address phishing or other online attacks, which means that it does not provide any stronger guarantees about the data online." (2)

" ... driver sandboxing" not currently implemented (1)

"All plugins..." don't currently "... run as independent processes.... ... with OS-level sandboxing ... or Mandatory Access Control (MAC) policies" (1)

"access to local storage services..." is not isolated "... at a process level" (1)

"Full-screen mode in some plugins could allow an attacker to mock out the entire user experience of a Chromium OS device." (1)

"... JavaScript APIs used in web applications on Chromium OS devices will be the same HTML5 and Open Web Platform APIs that are being deployed in Chromium browsers everywhere." (1)

"adversary could attempt to subvert the update process" (1)


1. Anonymous. Security Overview.

2. Katherine Fang, Deborah Hanus, Yuzhi Zheng. Security of Google Chromebook.


As any reasonable person can see there are several aspects of Google Chrome OS to admire, in particular verified boot and automatic updates. Unfortunately, Google Chrome OS has their own share of vulnerabilities even vulnerabilities related to verified boot and automatic updates.
Edited by MacBook Pro - 3/25/13 at 8:13pm
post #180 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


Of course they don't, they're nazis, I read.

 

http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/open-sauce/9680-interface-nazis-in-torvalds-line-of-fire

 

Sometimes, Torvalds just as cocky as SJ, isn't he? :p

 

I wouldn't say Torvalds is necessarily cocky, just very opinionated...  And doesn't have to tone down his rhetoric for anyone.  And he has strong opinions.  At least he's not as crazy as Richard Stallman...

 

And yes, we all wonder what the hell Gnome was thinking (I don't think Gnome Shell is bad per se, but they've made some bad decisions for their ecosystem)...

post #181 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

 

Third party developers should not be allowed to create native iPhone applications. Nobody needs native iPhone applications. Web apps are "really sweet".

 

When iPhone was first sold, there was no SDK and Apple told developers they could write web apps that ran in Safari. This did not please developers. Since then, the success of the App Store, the unpopularity of web-based iPhone apps, and the failure of webOS to create excitement around web apps is a clear indication that your optimism in web apps is not shared by the market at large.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #182 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

When iPhone was first sold, there was no SDK and Apple told developers they could write web apps that ran in Safari. This did not please developers. Since then, the success of the App Store, the unpopularity of web-based iPhone apps, and the failure of webOS to create excitement around web apps is a clear indication that your optimism in web apps is not shared by the market at large.

His comment is implying this is what everyone was saying before the inevitable release of Xcode for iOS months after the iPhone launched. He's saying that because the App Store wasn't ready until the 2nd gen iPhone in 2008 that no one wanted a native solution for apps that were actually against it simply because it was not yet an option.

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post #183 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

His comment is implying this is what everyone was saying before the inevitable release of Xcode for iOS months after the iPhone launched. He's saying that because the App Store wasn't ready until the 2nd gen iPhone in 2008 that no one wanted a native solution for apps that were actually against it simply because it was not yet an option.

Were Apple users actually against native apps? I don't recall that I was against native apps although some of the web apps were impressive at the time. Regardless, native apps were introduced soon enough that I suspect native apps were always part of the plan.
post #184 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

Were Apple users actually against native apps? I don't recall that I was against native apps although some of the web apps were impressive at the time. Regardless, native apps were introduced soon enough that I suspect native apps were always part of the plan.

Nobody was, but he constantly posts that crap because most accepted what was offered and simply dealt with web apps for the very short time frame before Xcode for iOS arrived. The App Store didn't come for a full year but even that's a short time frame.

The issue probably arose with WinMo, BB OS, and Symbian users came to pooh-poh the iPhone because it didn't have a native SDK and the more sensible posters said to give it time and that webapps were fine for an interim solution. Same thing for cut/copy/paste which i don't think arrived until iOS 3.0 in 2009. Apple took their sweet time to bring it but they did it right and not in the disjointed way that Android has implemented it. Of course, Haggar has also made the same claims that people said "No one needs copy/paste" or something to that effect.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #185 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

 

It's a lousy product. There's no way you can create high-end applications for it since you can't actually write native code for it. All it does is run Web Apps inside a browser based OS. It's only good for basic tasks like e-mail, browsing, social interaction or creating basic documents. You can't do anything requiring graphical power (photo or video editing, illustration or even games). It would be useless for web developers since you don't have a way to check your website on multiple browsers for compatibility. You can't code or develop software on it since you're never going to see a Web App compiler (well, they could off-load the compiling to a third party but what programmer is going to trust their code to someone else to compile?).

 

And when you try and rape people $1,300 for a high-end version it's downright stupid. High-end hardware that lacks the software to do any high-end work.

 

Bottom line: great for simple tasks, useless for real work.

Online apps have gotten much, much better, website development applications for instance are actually very intuitive and great for colabriation work, plus you can host all of your compilers on your server. Audiotool.com is also one of the coolest music creation apps I have ever used, standalone or web. The Pixel albeit expensive is also one the most beautiful laptops on the market today. It's a niche market defiantly but for those who buy Porsche designed Blackberry's and B&O audio equipment it kind of makes sense. Just because you do not see the potential doesn't mean that there aren't those who do. I don't own one myself but I do have the ARM Chromebook and it is very useful, so much so that I now do all of my Office work on it now. Well to be honest my company gave me the Chromebook and a Chromebox for the office, we host a Office 365 site and have moved to a all online work flow. Our internal networks are still Unix which can be easily accessed with a XTerminal using ChromeOS. Anyway, point is these things are a lot more use full then you think.

 

If your just a little competent with Linux it's fairly easy to install standalone applications, just copy over the binaries and libraries. I have Eclipse, Netbeans, OpenOffice, VLC and a LAMP server installed. If ChromeOS doesn't float your boat then Arch or Ubuntu can be installed as well.


Edited by Relic - 3/26/13 at 3:08am
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post #186 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv 
The first paragraph is false: when three years run out, you can keep and access all the data for free, you just can't add to it.

Ok, so the online storage becomes unusable for writing to until you pay the subscription for the amount you are using and you'd downgrade the plan to whatever you used. That's fair but it's still another cost that should be factored in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv 
The price comments are specious, since for those of us who can use 1TB of cloud storage (or have ten friends, or ten employees who can each use 100GB) the machine is just a freebie you get with the storage (you also get free LTE and 12 free GoGo flights -- the latter is worth around $250, the former, at amazon Kindle pricing for a similar service, around $200), so this is a phenomenally good deal.

By Gogo flight you mean passes to use in-flight wifi. If you absolutely need wifi for the couple of hours on a flight, I'm sure you can find a reasonable enough service. The LTE is 100MB per month usage. You couldn't even download Ubuntu with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

If your just a little competent with Linux it's fairly easy to install standalone applications, just copy over the binaries and libraries. I have Eclipse, Netbeans, OpenOffice, VLC and a LAMP server installed. If ChromeOS doesn't float your boat then Arch or Ubuntu can be installed as well.

If you plan to do that though, why wouldn't you get a 13" Retina Macbook Pro? If you really want Chrome OS, you can install that on it. It's just weird to justify the usefulness of a machine by saying that it is useful if you replace the bundled OS with Linux. Why not buy a computer that has a useful OS on it in the first place that also has a better design, a longer battery life, significantly more storage, USB 3 and Thunderbolt?

Also when people talk about installing Linux being fairly easy, are you running it from an SD card, which really isn't an ideal storage device for an OS or using the stateful partition, which is extremely small and requires a non-trivial process to setup, while also leaving Chrome OS with very little usable offline storage?

The Chromebook Pixel is also another example where Google just follows Apple's lead, even the marketing page:

http://www.google.com/intl/en_us/chrome/devices/chromebook-pixel/
http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/

Google uses the term 'leading laptops' to show 118PPI but do they mean laptops that sell in the highest volume at any price point or ones that sell at the price point of the Chromebook Pixel?

Hardware design: backlit chiclet keyboard, large glass single button trackpad, magnetic latch, 2 USB ports and Mini-DP, trackpad gestures:

http://support.google.com/chromeos/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1047367

Even the very move to Retina displays just follows along on Apple's lead time and time again.
post #187 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


Also when people talk about installing Linux being fairly easy, are you running it from an SD card, which really isn't an ideal storage device for an OS or using the stateful partition, which is extremely small and requires a non-trivial process to setup, while also leaving Chrome OS with very little usable offline storage?
 

 

No, running it off an SD card would be slow.  Partitioning and formatting any disk using Linux tools and installing from a USB stick is incredibly easy these days.  The Linux OS itself also requires little space relative to Windows and OSX.  

 

But I think Relic is talking about installing Linux apps on Chrome OS.

post #188 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

 

Do you use MS office in the browser, or one of the open office suites? Either way, is it fully functional (compared to locally installed MS Office)? Just curious, I have never tried (I assume you don't have VBA in the cloud, though I know you do have python with google docs...)

Yes, I use Office in the browser but you are correct VBA scripts aren't actively accessible. This isn't much of a inconvenience as we do our calculations with Python and Perl before importing into Office. As I mentioned before we are a Unix house and defiantly utilize it's power, unfortunately clearing houses and some stock exchanges still send data as a XLS and not through SWIFT which is a parsed XML file. I personally just use the online word processor and PowerPoint as I'm a command line junkie. Even with my Macbook Air I think I use the terminal more then any other application. Chromebooks are defiantly one of the best dumb terminals, something a lot of people here seemed to have missed, with Citrix, xTerm, remote desktop and a secured system it's pretty great. So a company who utilizes Chromebooks and Chromeboxs and that number is growing by the way the Pixel isn't so far fetched. I work for UBS in Zurich where the average salary is over 75,000 CHF, a lot of us want more then a 300 USD Chromebook, we want the style and power of a Pixel. Google has a market, it's not big but it's there.

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post #189 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

1. GoGo in flight is the ONLY currently available WiFi provider (unless you fly private, in which case costs are irrelevant). For a transcontinental flight, the cost is $20.

There seems to be some alternatives:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Row_44
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnAir

Only fast enough for data, not video. It'll save money for the people that use it though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

2. LTE: why would you want to download Ubuntu, or whatever, over LTE? Do you live in your car? You use your home network for big files, and read your mail in cafes, or whatever, using LTE.

100MB still isn't enough for a month's basic usage. A single website can easily be as much as 1MB, an ebook can be 5MB. Not to mention the whole point of the Chromebook being that everything is done on the web so all document changes have to be synced to the web. You could run through 100MB usage in one sitting at a cafe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

The Chromebook's cost (if you use the freebies) is NEGATIVE $700 or so. I don't think you can find a macbook pro (even non-retina) for a price this low.

lol.gif Throw in some adwords and how could anyone resist. When you throw in a bunch of junk services that aren't going to be much use to anyone then of course deducting it off the price is going to make it look good but the hardware purchase is a tangible transaction. It's not likely that people will even have the opportunity to use all the 'freebies' so they are worth as much as coupons that get sent out in the mail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

5. Google follows Apple: Who cares? We are talking about the merits of the machine.

It's important because Google always does this. They look at whatever Apple is doing, copy it in some half-assed way, sell it cheaper or free and legions of fans try and justify why it's a better option than Apple's products. Just buy the original and for your premium you get some quality control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic 
Even with my Macbook Air I think I use the terminal more then any other application. Chromebooks are defiantly one of the best dumb terminals, something a lot of people here seemed to have missed, with Citrix, xTerm, remote desktop and a secured system it's pretty great.

Those can be used on any laptop too though. What is it that makes the Chromebooks better at this than a Retina Macbook Pro? The issue is really why would you spend $1300 on a 32GB Chromebook Pixel with 4GB RAM vs $1500 on a 128GB Retina Macbook Pro with 8GB RAM when the Chromebook in its shipped state can only do a fraction of what the Macbook Pro can do?

The focus is on why it's good, not why it's better. Why is it better than a Macbook Pro, which can act as a terminal, a Mac, Linux or Windows machine, a video editing machine, a development machine, a design machine with the CS Suite, anything you want it to be? From every angle, it looks... hmmm, what's the word Android users use for the iPhone? Oh yeah... overpriced.
post #190 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

 

Re Google. I still don't think it is relevant, since it is not relevant to the merits of the machine, but actually they do it with other people (e.g., Google Drive is a response to dropbox, Google docs a response to MS, etc). I agree that they have a tendency to do a half-assed job. The Chromebook actually seems an exception to the rule.

 

I actually prefer Google Docs to MS.  Not quite as many features, but I never really miss MS Office.  I've never found I've been wanting features it didn't provide...  Google Docs' scripting features also seem quite nice, but like Relic I generally use command line scripts (in Ruby though).  

 

Google definitely likes to ship unfinished software, and I don't use all of it, but I think they definitely are ahead of MS and others in terms of usefulness.  

post #191 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


The focus is on why it's good, not why it's better. Why is it better than a Macbook Pro, which can act as a terminal, a Mac, Linux or Windows machine, a video editing machine, a development machine, a design machine with the CS Suite, anything you want it to be? From every angle, it looks... hmmm, what's the word Android users use for the iPhone? Oh yeah... overpriced.

 

It probably isn't better, after all, you can install Linux on a Macbook Pro at least as easily as on a Chromebook.  LTE would be one upside, but then again tethering to a cell phone or getting a USB stick modem isn't a big deal.  

 

I think it's a very niche-oriented machine aimed strait at those who want a developer machine in Google's ecosystem, with nice (vanity) hardware.  It's definitely not a mass-market product, and unless you have a large disposable income, the Samsung ARM Chromebook would likely be a better buy.  

post #192 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

 

It probably isn't better, after all, you can install Linux on a Macbook Pro at least as easily as on a Chromebook.  LTE would be one upside, but then again tethering to a cell phone or getting a USB stick modem isn't a big deal.  

 

I think it's a very niche-oriented machine aimed strait at those who want a developer machine in Google's ecosystem, with nice (vanity) hardware.  It's definitely not a mass-market product, and unless you have a large disposable income, the Samsung ARM Chromebook would likely be a better buy.  

Working in bank with a secure intranet that doesn't talk with the internet except through a very secure FTP site the Chrome-uters have been very successful in dealing with those two worlds and with using only one computer. In the past we used an internal now Oracle Sun Ray dumb terminal with CDE for the internal network and a off the shelf Dell for the external.The Chrome|books|boxes have merged those two worlds together for us with a appealing and very secure UI. Meaning users can't install their own software or modify the OS as it has a bios secured boot that checks the integrity and modifications made to the system prior to OS launch.

 

So in a work atmosphere with this kind of security the days of users bringing in their own personal computer have sadly gone the way of the floppy. Laptops are still used of course but in the form of a Chromebook. As a computer enthusiasts I will always want the best I can have for the tasks that need to get done. The Pixel gives me, my opinion, a pretty fantastic option in a world with very few. I like my ARM Chromebook, it's small, fast enough, cute but it's not as sexy as a Pixel. I want it but I can use it, normal users, no, don't see the appeal, buy a Air.


Edited by Relic - 3/26/13 at 8:04pm
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post #193 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Working in bank with a secure intranet that doesn't talk with the internet except through a very secure FTP site the Chrome-uters have been very successful in dealing with those two worlds and with using only one computer. In the past we used an internal now Oracle Sun Ray dumb terminal with CDE for the internal network and a off the shelf Dell for the external.The Chrome|books|boxes have merged those two worlds together for us with a appealing and very secure UI. Meaning users can't install their own software or modify the OS as it has a bios secured boot that checks the integrity and modifications made to the system prior to OS launch.

 

So in a work atmosphere with this kind of security the days of users bringing in their own personal computer have sadly gone the way of the floppy. Laptops are still used of course but in the form of a Chromebook. As a computer enthusiasts I will always want the best I can have for the tasks that need to get done. The Pixel gives me, my opinion, a pretty fantastic option in a world with very few. I like my ARM Chromebook, it's small, fast enough, cute but it's not as sexy as a Pixel. I want it but I can use it, normal users, no, don't see the appeal, buy a Air.

 

Interesting analysis, pretty neat how your company uses them.  

 

I really do think ChromeOS is the future of computing, after using apps on Chrome that make use of NaCl (native client).  Playing 'From Dust' in Chrome is a pretty cool experience, and being able to run native apps in a browser solves alot of fragmentation issues.  Technologies like WebGL are also getting pretty mature, real apps in the browser are a reality, and someday in the not too distant future may actually rival native apps.  

 

All the world needs though is more (decent) internet connections.  

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