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Chromebook pixel count spurs Apple marketing shift - Page 3

post #81 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by iang1234 View Post

 

There is also Google Native Client

 

 

It can also be used to create 3D apps using OpenGL ES

 

Why mention native client and ignore the things it can't do? Like communicate with hardware. Sure it's fast, but since it's a subset of x86 using benchmarks to say how fast it runs is pointless if it can't do everything you want.

 

I don't see many developers bothering to use Native Client. If you're going to go through all the trouble to write in C/C++, then why not write your entire App instead of splitting off portions to run Native and portions to run in the browser.

post #82 of 193
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post
…and yet you seem to seem to say it wasn't.

 

I really don't understand what you're saying.

 

The article originally stated that they weren't pitching it as the "highest-resolution" anymore. The images taken directly from the site show otherwise, proving the original article wrong. Why anyone was confused in the slightest by that is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Marvin

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post #83 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

GNU

So if it contains any software under its brand that is not wholly free per GNU, save for non-GNU kernels, you won't say its Linux even though it looks like Linux, works like Linux, acts like Linux, and does everything else a basic Linux distro does? Doesn't Red Hat Enterprise come with software that doesn't fall under GNU? Wouldn't that make it non-Linux in your eyes?

Just an example. ReHat is what I use for my servers. I am certainly not knowledgeable about Chrome OS or Android. I only mentioned the apparently odd configuration of Android as being very nonstandard in the sense of Davlik VM, if it can even be considered a distro of Linux. I have no interest in splitting hairs. If it has all the same features and utilities normally found in Linux then I suppose it is Linux. I really don't give a **** about Android or Chrome.

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post #84 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I really don't understand what you're saying.

The article originally stated that they weren't pitching it as the "highest-resolution" anymore. The images taken directly from the site show otherwise, proving the original article wrong. Why anyone was confused in the slightest by that is beyond me.

The article originally stated, and I quote directly from Matrix07's post that he quoted…
Quote:
Apple, never shy in touting the specifications of its devices when they are at the top of industry offerings, used to market its 13- and 15-inch Retina MacBook Pros as "The highest-resolution notebook ever. And the second-highest." That's no longer the case, though, and the product page for the Retina MacBooks has changed to reflect that.

As it says, it's no longer the case that it's the highest and second-highest resolution but you two seem to be saying that AI's comment that it's no longer the case is somehow incorrect when it's clearly no loner the case as it's now the highest and third-highest resolution.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #85 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Just an example. ReHat is what I use for my servers. I am certainly not knowledgeable about Chrome OS or Android. I only mentioned the apparently odd configuration of Android as being very nonstandard in the sense of Davlik VM, if it can even be considered a distro of Linux. I have no interest in splitting hairs. If it has all the same features and utilities normally found in Linux then I suppose it is Linux. I really don't give a **** about Android or Chrome.

I would never call it Linux the way I refer to Red hat and Ubuntu as Linux because it's clearly forked but it's still based on Linux. Same goes for not saying the Kindle FIre OS is Android but it's based on Android which is based on Linux. If you fork it so that you no longer fall under the purview of a particular license you lose that aspect of it but to deny it its roots seems disingenuous to me.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #86 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Just an example. Red Hat is what I use for my servers. I am certainly not knowledgeable about Chrome OS or Android. I only mentioned the apparently odd configuration of Android as being very nonstandard in the sense of Davlik VM, if it can even be considered a distro of Linux. I have no interest in splitting hairs. If it has all the same features and utilities normally found in Linux then I suppose it is Linux. I really don't give a **** about Android or Chrome.

I would never call it Linux the way I refer to Red hat and Ubuntu as Linux because it's clearly forked but it's still based on Linux. Same goes for not saying the Kindle FIre OS is Android but it's based on Android which is based on Linux. If you fork it so that you no longer fall under the purview of a particular license you lose that aspect of it but to deny it its roots seems disingenuous to me.

Might I suggest this as a reference of Linux distributions:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions

 

Chromium is included. Android is not.

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post #87 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I might suggest this as a reference of Linux distributions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions

Chromium is included. Android is not.

Sure, but neither is Chrome OS for the same reasons Android isn't included. Chromium is Google's open-source version of Chrome OS. I think only the kernel in Linux and Chrome are under GNU. That doesn't mean they aren't built off Linux, have full access to the shell, and in no way did I call Android or Chrome a Linux distro.

And I'm not sure why you'd post this link for me to look at. What did I say was a Linux distro that isn't in that list? Kindle Fire? Surely not.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #88 of 193

Actually nobody seems to have noticed that there is already a number of ways to boot the Google Pixel into Android and Ubuntu. It is probably not going to take too much time for the Linux developers to implement a simple installation process to put full linux on the Pixel. Things like that do seem to attract the linux hackers.
 

post #89 of 193

Somebody please explain this bullshit will you? We were all told that the Retina display resolution was higher than the human eye can detect. Now we have a new spec war going on about pixels and resolution.If these resolutions are higher than the human eye can perceive then what on earth are we arguing about? Is this the same argument we hear from the audiophiles and videophiles about how THEY can hear and see the difference between 128kbps and 256kbps encoding, or the difference between 1080P and 4K? Is this all marketing bullshit? Were we lied to? Is Apple doomed? What? Please tell me! I'm tired of this crap.

post #90 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I might suggest this as a reference of Linux distributions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions

Chromium is included. Android is not.
 I think only the kernel in Linux and Chrome are under GNU. 
 

GNU has nothing to do with any kernel as far as I know.

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post #91 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Somebody please explain this bullshit will you? We were all told that the Retina display resolution was higher than the human eye can detect. Now we have a new spec war going on about pixels and resolution.If these resolutions are higher than the human eye can perceive then what on earth are we arguing about? Is this the same argument we hear from the audiophiles and videophiles about how THEY can hear and see the difference between 128kbps and 256kbps encoding, or the difference between 1080P and 4K? Is this all marketing bullshit? Were we lied to? Is Apple doomed? What? Please tell me! I'm tired of this crap.

You weren't lied to, you need to look past marketing designed to make a simplistic statement with the actual science. The original Retina designation in the iPhone 4 was 326 PPI with Steve Jobs says that about 300 PPI was the limit of the human eye for (for holding the device 10-12" away from the eyes and having 20/20(6/6) vision). That all true.

The RMBPs are around 220 PPI and the iPad 3/4 are 264 PPI. They are all still Retina-grade because you can say one reasonably holds them farther from the face. As for choosing 20/20, that's just common for claiming one has perfect vision but there is no such thing as perfect vision defined as the best vision a human can possibly have.

Apple claiming that it's Retina is a trademarked term that suggests that nearly all customers who use it a normal distance from their face will not be able to discern pixels. That's also true.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #92 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

GNU has nothing to do with any kernel as far as I know.

Sure it does. You can license the kernel differently than other parts of the OS. Android lists the kernel as being under the GNU GPL and the rest being Apache license.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #93 of 193
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post
Somebody please explain this bullshit will you? We were all told that the Retina display resolution was higher than the human eye can detect. Now we have a new spec war going on about pixels and resolution.If these resolutions are higher than the human eye can perceive then what on earth are we arguing about? Is this the same argument we hear from the audiophiles and videophiles about how THEY can hear and see the difference between 128kbps and 256kbps encoding, or the difference between 1080P and 4K? Is this all marketing bullshit? Were we lied to? Is Apple doomed? What? Please tell me! I'm tired of this crap.

 

Don't worry; everything is going to be all right.

 

Apple is, has been, and will always be doomed, so no matter how confusing the swirl of information around you is, you can always take comfort in that fact. 1wink.gif

 

I consider audio to be a similar, but different, argument here. I can hear the difference between various encoding levels, and so I keep my music ALAC. *shrug* Some people can't.

 

As for video, it's all about distance. You can see a difference in 480 and 1080 just as you can see a difference in 1080 and 4K or SHV. But on a 4" screen at 20", the difference between the three of them becomes less noticeable (to say the least). 

 

Here's the important takeaway: If at a given distance the pixel is equal to or smaller than the size resolvable by the human eye, no greater pixel density is necessary, as no greater quality can possibly be perceived.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #94 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

Wrong. In particular, if you really want, you can install linux on your chromebook, which makes it a very nice development box (and yes, ChromeOS stays on it).

If you're going to make a Linux dev box the Chromebook seems like an expensive and foolish way to do it unless you're Montgomery Brewster.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #95 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

Who says you have to push out the 1TB on LTE (or, for that matter on the ChromeBook)? 

It does have USB ports.

I think people don't understand what WebKit as the UI means. I think they actually think it's just a browser, yet I don't recall people complaining about WebOS being just a browser. I think people think you have to be connected to the internet and Google's services to use it, and yet I don't recall anyone scratching their heads wondering how the Palm Pre with its browser-based UI was able connect to iTunes via USB.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #96 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

Have you bothered to look at those Apps? Might as well say the iPad is better than Photoshop for photo editing or Vegas/Premiere/Avid for video editing. They are nothing more than Android equivalents of iOS Apps like Snapseed or iMovie. It might seem impressive to do photo editing in your smartphone, but when compared to desktop software you quickly realize how lacking they are.

Well since you want to change your claim to "there's better devices for photo-editing" I'll absolutely agree with you, but that's not what you originally said. You were quite emphatic that photo-editing and video creation couldn't be done on a Chromebook.
Edited by Gatorguy - 3/24/13 at 4:04pm
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post #97 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Here's the important takeaway: If at a given distance the pixel is equal to or smaller than the size resolvable by the human eye, no greater pixel density is necessary, as no greater quality can possibly be perceived.

 

Ah, so it's marketing bullshit. That's what I thought.

post #98 of 193
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post
Ah, so it's marketing bullshit. That's what I thought.

 

BS… after a point. Resolution increases are noticeable and can be important up to that. 

 

I guess the simplest analogy is an asymptotic line, but the graph is a little more complex than that.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #99 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Well since you want to change your claim to "there's better devices for photo-editing" I'll absolutely agree with you, but that's not what you originally said. You were quite emphatic that photo-editing and video creation couldn't be done on a Chromebook. You were wrong.

Its still not pro level bud, like Eric said its equal to ios apps.  Do you get to demo the product before you market it?

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post #100 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Ah, so it's marketing bullshit. That's what I thought.

Bullshit would imply that it's false. How is it false? Seems like Apple has been up front, even given a very technical equation on how they decide if something falls within the Retina category.

If it's all BS then why don't they call their iMacs Retina? Or their MBAs?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #101 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

[...] I'm debating whether to step up to a 15" MacBook Pro Retina, or just get a 15" non-Retina MBP and save the cash.

 

I'd say it depends on how long you plan to keep it and how willing you are to tolerate growing pains.

 

Right now, apps that are optimized for the retina display look great. To my 50-year-old eyes the difference seems like no big deal, but it is clearly better.

 

However, apps that are NOT optimized for the retina display look significantly worse than they would on a standard display. At this point, that's most apps. Eventually the tide will shift and retina-optimized apps will become common, but until then you'll have paid extra for a user experience that's split between better and worse image quality.

 

This next bit is just opinion, and yours may differ so go check it out for yourself, but to MY eyes, retina-ready apps look "better than standard, but not what I'd call night-and-day" whereas non-retina apps on the retina display look MUCH worse -- night-and-day worse. That means for me the upside is outweighed by the downside. Because of that, and the fact that I think I will be ready to buy another machine by the time the software transition skews positive (I'm guessing two years best case, probably three), I am buying the old version THIS time, but probably retina next time.

 

Your mileage may vary.

post #102 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Bullshit would imply that it's false. How is it false? Seems like Apple has been up front, even given a very technical equation on how they decide if something falls within the Retina category.

If it's all BS then why don't they call their iMacs Retina? Or their MBAs?

 

 I wasn't implying that anything was false, just that this new spec war over resolution is meaningless after a point. But, as usual, some will buy into it even though it would be impossible for their eyes to see the difference.

post #103 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

BS… after a point. Resolution increases are noticeable and can be important up to that. 

 

I guess the simplest analogy is an asymptotic line, but the graph is a little more complex than that.

 

Well ,at least I will be better able to SEE why Apple is Doomed™ ¡

post #104 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

GNU has nothing to do with any kernel as far as I know.

Sure it does. You can license the kernel differently than other parts of the OS. Android lists the kernel as being under the GNU GPL and the rest being Apache license.

I guess there is some confusion. Although something can be licensed under GPLv2 doesn't make it GNU in origin. GNU has it's own kernel named Hurd, which I was unaware of, but Hurd is not finished or in distribution and is entirely separate from the Linux kernel. GNU/Linux is apparently the proper way to refer to the popular OS known as Linux as most of the parts except the kernel are from GNU.

 

Here is an interesting read:

http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#why

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post #105 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Well since you want to change your claim to "there's better devices for photo-editing" I'll absolutely agree with you, but that's not what you originally said. You were quite emphatic that photo-editing and video creation couldn't be done on a Chromebook. You were wrong.

 

Trying to be 100% literal with a few words someone said and then basing your argument around that. My original claim hasn't changed one bit - only your interpretation of it has (which is wrong, BTW).

 

Did you not read the last statement in my original post? "Bottom line: great for simple tasks, useless for real work."

 

That applies to simple photo/video tools vs professional tools. You listed a couple of basic photo/video Apps that would never be used by anyone for real work, which is what my final statement said. So all you did was prove my point even further.

 

 

While we're at it you also completely ignored my other comments. Like the fact it's useless for web developers. Imagine that - a computer based around the web that can't be used to develop for the web because it lacks the most rudimentary features a web developer needs. I find that quite ironic.

post #106 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

 I wasn't implying that anything was false, just that this new spec war over resolution is meaningless after a point. But, as usual, some will buy into it even though it would be impossible for their eyes to see the difference.

Your comment clearly referenced the marketing as BS but the only marketing I see is the Retina claim which has already been detailed several times. Since pre-Retina displays on Apple's devices once could easily see the pixels without having 20/20(6/6) vision it's not BS. I don't know Apple or anyone else can be more clear about it.

Right now we've barely tipped into this Retina-quality space. Apple first mass marketed it years ago for the consumer space with the iPhone 4 but that is just the tip of the iceberg. We still don't have all the Macs with Retina displays and the Chromebook is a lone oddball to prove a point, I guess, because I can't see how the GPU could possibly handle that many pixels for a real workload or why anyone would want it for just a browser.

As previously stated there are several factors, like ones vision and how far one prefers to use the device from their eyes, that makes it impossible to define an exact number that will work for everyone. We're not even close to being so far into this Retina classification that it doesn't mean someone with the best visual acuity on Earth today or in the future won't be able to make out individual pixels from their normal viewing distance, but again that's not how the definition was made.

As for the spec wars, it's only ever been relevant within its own subsection. You can't say that 2.7GHz process has higher performance than a 2.1GHz processor, but you can say which one has the high clock speed, but we know clock speed doesn't equate to higher performance unless we're talking about the same class of processor.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #107 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

Wrong. In particular, if you really want, you can install linux on your chromebook, which makes it a very nice development box (and yes, ChromeOS stays on it).

 

Why would you want to when you could buy a laptop and put Linux on it instead? If you have to look at a product from the point of view of a hacker or modder before it's really useful then your product is a failure.

post #108 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post


While we're at it you also completely ignored my other comments. Like the fact it's useless for web developers. Imagine that - a computer based around the web that can't be used to develop for the web because it lacks the most rudimentary features a web developer needs. I find that quite ironic.

Just because I didn't comment on it doesn't mean it was ignored. i don't know anything about web development nor did I see anything that would dispute what you said, so I had nothing to add. You're probably right that it's not a good choice for a web developer. You just weren't right about some of your other Chromebook claims.
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post #109 of 193

How close do people look at their screens? I'm about 40/45cm - 16/18 inches away so I wonder do I actually get close enough to benefit from these high resolution screens?

post #110 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave2012 View Post

How close do people look at their screens? I'm about 40/45cm - 16/18 inches away so I wonder do I actually get close enough to benefit from these high resolution screens?

At that distance you absolutely would for any reasonable visual acuity. The equation 3438 * (1 ÷ n1 inches ) = n2 PPI or the reverse, 3438 * (1 ÷ n2 PPI ) = n1 inches.

So at 16" from your face 3438 * (1 ÷ 16) = 215 PPI is the minimum for not being able to discern individual pixels for someone with 6/6(20/20) vision. That really just puts you right inside that threshold.

Note, if you have bad vision high PPI displays can still be a benefit because you need to measure from the old PPI of about 120, and not consider anything that may be above and beyond for you particular eyesight. For those older displays you'd have to be about 29" away for it to have the same effect. That's a big window.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #111 of 193

OK thanks! And how far are you away from the screen?

post #112 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave2012 View Post

OK thanks! And how far are you away from the screen?

About that for my 13" MBP and about 22 to 28 inches for my 27" iMac.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #113 of 193

Can't believe no one here has brought up QuickRes. Because of the two graphics cards, you can go all the way up to 3840x2400.

 

http://quickresapp.com

post #114 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post

...The benefit of cloud storage for applications is that they all can be updated without the users even having to bother with it. People will have the latest versions all of the time.

Because users love when things change on them without notice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post


Viruses shouldn't be a problem with cloud based software.

And when it turns out that they ARE susceptible to malicious acts, EVERY user will suffer, all at the same time.

I'm not feeling the impetus to drive any of my material to the cloud. The storage isn't guaranteed, so you still have to do backups, and backups are harder because these companies want your content stuck in their proprietary system (MS Office all over again, but actually worse and more domineering). The security is bad because of the basic fact that a Google an Apple server is a bigger target for assault than a Jane Smith personal device. They will issue a "we're sorry", but not a guarantee or compensation for failure or stolen/compromised private data. The reliability of the service is questionable, as existing systems show (and don't tell me it'll get better because computers have been here far too long to still be as much of a broken pain in the ass as they really still are) and there's no backup tool to use when the network or service craps out (if my device craps out, I can use another, faster than waiting for a major Internet service to recover). Then there's the crappy GUI and user experience, and, WORSE, all the advertising they'll ram down our throats, and the eventual attempt to get us to pay for what started out as free (in order to acquire users in the first place).

I'm not being a Luddite. I'm being practical and I'm looking at how this industry has worked to this day. Practicality and reliability are the antithesis of the computer industry.

Is there a place for these kinds of things at all? Yes, of course; especially collaboration in a project heavy with sharing of non-private data. But it's a far cry from the superior default platform upon which to do all of our work. I do not see it being a good goal for anyone but the top three capitalists and their preferred shareholders.
post #115 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

 

Who says you have to push out the 1TB on LTE (or, for that matter on the ChromeBook)? 

Who said you needed to buy 1TB of cloud storage?

post #116 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

But, but, Android users are telling me keeping the same design is "stale" and Android is better because of the customizable UI and updates.

Actually as of late more and more Apple users are saying it.
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post #117 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

Because:

1. You run Linux and Chromios at the same time, getting the benefits of both.

2. It's very easy

3. I was not commenting on whether the Chromebook Pixel was a wise product move by Google, but only on whether it would be useful. The answer is that a nice Chrome/Linux box with a beautiful display is definitely useful. I generally use MacBook Pros for my computing, but this is a very enticing alternative (the macbooks are WAY more expensive, come with some better hardware, but no LTE, nor the terabyte of cloud storage.

1) I wasn't aware that Chrome OS had virtualization option to run Linux on Chrome OS.

2) You can run Linux atop Windows and Mac OS X, too, but seems like a better option that simply running a VM of Linux on a Linux-based OS. What's the benefit of that, especially with the HW provided which is really only impressive on the display HW?

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post #118 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

 

It's a lousy product. There's no way you can create high-end applications for it since you can't actually write native code for it. All it does is run Web Apps inside a browser based OS. It's only good for basic tasks like e-mail, browsing, social interaction or creating basic documents. You can't do anything requiring graphical power (photo or video editing, illustration or even games). It would be useless for web developers since you don't have a way to check your website on multiple browsers for compatibility. You can't code or develop software on it since you're never going to see a Web App compiler (well, they could off-load the compiling to a third party but what programmer is going to trust their code to someone else to compile?).

 

And when you try and rape people $1,300 for a high-end version it's downright stupid. High-end hardware that lacks the software to do any high-end work.

 

Bottom line: great for simple tasks, useless for real work.

 

Third party developers should not be allowed to create native iPhone applications. Nobody needs native iPhone applications. Web apps are "really sweet".

post #119 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

Third party developers should not be allowed to create native iPhone applications. Nobody needs native iPhone applications. Web apps are "really sweet".

You should be banned for constantly posting this crap.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #120 of 193

Doesn't iPad do the same thing?

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