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Rumor: Apple courting developers to support official gaming controller [u] - Page 2

post #41 of 107
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post
You are seriously trying to compared a placeholder price of an unreleased item to the price of an existing item? Wow, even for you that is a stretch

 

No, but of course you don't care.


Originally Posted by Zozman View Post
Which three?, just curious (& yes this is a test :p)

 

The three touchscreen iDevices.

 

EDIT: Ah, apologies. It's four now, isn't it? Curse the iPad mini.

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post #42 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

No, but of course you don't care.

Yes I do, as that is what you did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

The three touchscreen iDevices.

EDIT: Ah, apologies. It's four now, isn't it? Curse the iPad mini.

personally I don't believe they are game controllers, they lack the numerous advantages that a keyboard, mouse, or game controller can provide.
post #43 of 107
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post
personally I don't believe they are game controllers, they lack the numerous advantages that a keyboard, mouse, or game controller can provide.

 

Such as?

They have advantages of their own, as well.

Originally posted by Marvin

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Originally posted by Marvin

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post #44 of 107
Quote:
Update: The extremely reliable Jim Dalrymple of The Loop has weighed in on the matter, saying, "Nope."

 

Yeah right. An apple controller is certain. If the living room Apple display isn't the ultimate game console, then there is no reason for to even exist.
post #45 of 107
Originally Posted by Ingela View Post
If the living room Apple display isn't the ultimate game console, then there is no reason for to even exist.

 

Well, to revolutionize the transmission of video content and break the decades-long hegemony held by the "all or nothing" package model.

Originally posted by Marvin

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Originally posted by Marvin

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post #46 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

They have advantages of their own, as well.

 

It's true that there are certain types of games that are well suited for touch screens. Certain games even work better on a touch screen than with anything else.

 

On the other hand, there are certain games where a controller would be preferred.

 

Even when the iPad 10 is released in 6 years time, a game like PacMan (and plenty of other games) will still be better with a joystick or controller than with a touch screen.

 

It would be really boneheaded of Apple to not release a great gaming controller. Are you trying to argue against an Apple gaming controller? I can't think of a single good reason as to why Apple shouldn't, and I can think of many good reasons as to why they should.

 

What does Apple have to lose? Nothing.

 

What does Apple stand to gain? A lot.

post #47 of 107
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post
Are you trying to argue against an Apple gaming controller? I can't think of a single good reason as to why Apple shouldn't, and I can think of many good reasons as to why they should.

 

What does Apple have to lose? Nothing.

 

What does Apple stand to gain? A lot.

 

Yes. Everything else quoted, I'd say the opposite, seeing as the very concept goes against everything they've been working toward for the past six years.

Originally posted by Marvin

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Originally posted by Marvin

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post #48 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Yes. Everything else quoted, I'd say the opposite, seeing as the very concept goes against everything they've been working toward for the past six years.

 

It wouldn't be changing anything that they've done though, IMO. An Apple game controller would be available as an additional accessory, for those people who want it. It would give Apple a chance to grab an even bigger slice of the gaming market, and it would make millions of people happy, the people who would want such a controller. They could have a version of the Apple TV that came bundled with the controller. It would fly off of the shelves.

 

I don't believe that I've ever heard Apple say that touch is better than everything else for every single usage, or that Apple is abandoning everything in favor of touch only from now on. I'm the first person to claim that touch screens are great and iOS devices have changed the entire industry, but hardware input devices still have their place. I don't see Apple releasing an all touch, flat keyboard anytime soon, because even they recognize that a keyboard with actual keys is still preferred by most. Do I want a Mac Pro or an iMac with a flat, touch keyboard? Hell no! And a dedicated game controller also has it's place. There is no cannibalization for Apple to worry about, and I think that it would be a big seller.

post #49 of 107
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post
It wouldn't be changing anything that they've done though, IMO.

 

Oh? A portable device defined exclusively by its hardware buttons and serving no purpose but to present them isn't contrary to Apple's recent modii operandi?


…for those people who want it. …the people who would want such a controller.

 

Apple isn't very big on that, though, yeah? They're not so much into fringes as they are centers. I've always liked the dartboard analogy. Maybe I came up with it; I could never tell. 

 

While other companies throw as many darts at the board as they possibly can, trying to cover it entirely, Apple throws the largest dart they can (picture a dart 10x the size of a regular one) right at the center of the board. If they feel it didn't cover enough, they take a 5x dart and fill in some of the gaps. You can't fill a circle with circles, of course, but that's the idea.


Do I want a Mac Pro or an iMac with a flat, touch keyboard? Hell no!


Well, just the keyboard, no. At least for me. 1wink.gif

 

Also, it seems that your signature should warn against just BBCode editor users quoting you. I don't seem to have a problem, and I don't recall having one in the past, but there's the rub, isn't it?

Originally posted by Marvin

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Originally posted by Marvin

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post #50 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 


Apple isn't very big on that, though, yeah? They're not so much into fringes as they are centers. I've always liked the dartboard analogy. Maybe I came up with it; I could never tell. 

Usually those things are filled by third parties.

post #51 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Such as?

Character movement
hand placement
post #52 of 107
Quote:

The three touchscreen iDevices.

 

EDIT: Ah, apologies. It's four now, isn't it? Curse the iPad mini.

 

 

 

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, touchscreens are good for little puzzle games, angry birds & things like that, they really don't cut the mustard for games that require precision & finesse & yes lots of games need these things, generally not hand held games, i think a touch screen is a brilliant supplement to a physical controller, like the Wii U, PS4 & the ouya. on their own, not for serious gaming, My brother is a competition level gamer & I've been into it my whole life, PC & console games are on a different level on a few things, 1 is the immersiveness, 2nd thing is quality, new games that come out, really are amazing, they play out like movies with you playing them, this is why the game industry is rivaling Hollywood & makes alot of money. 

I was gonna be a real smart ass on this post, i changed my mind, damn. 

post #53 of 107
Interesting that this debate continues unabated despite the rumor being shot down by the most reliable non-Apple source.
post #54 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

It's true that there are certain types of games that are well suited for touch screens. Certain games even work better on a touch screen than with anything else.

On the other hand, there are certain games where a controller would be preferred.

Even when the iPad 10 is released in 6 years time, a game like PacMan (and plenty of other games) will still be better with a joystick or controller than with a touch screen.

Well, then, it's a good thing that Apple isn't taking away your ability to buy whatever controller you want for your system.

The entire argument is a waste of time. Different people have different wants and needs. Some are happy with a touch screen. Others want a massive controller with 20 buttons and 3D gyro control. Some play one type of games, and some play other types of games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

It would be really boneheaded of Apple to not release a great gaming controller. Are you trying to argue against an Apple gaming controller? I can't think of a single good reason as to why Apple shouldn't, and I can think of many good reasons as to why they should.

What does Apple have to lose? Nothing.

What does Apple stand to gain? A lot.

I have no idea whether Apple will (or should) release a controller. I don't really care one way or another. If the market is big enough and they feel that they can produce something great, they'll probably do it. But even if they do and even if it doesn't meet the needs of uber-hard-core gamers (who probably aren't using Macs, anyway), it doesn't make Apple evil or incompetent. They will choose the type of product and features they want to offer, but users can choose other devices if they wish. I can't understand the negativity coming from some people on this matter.
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post #55 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

I think this would go great with some kind of new AppleTV that supports apps. Then you could have games right on your TV. 

 

You already can via Airplay. 

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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post #56 of 107
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
Usually those things are filled by third parties.

 

Bingo!


Originally Posted by jfanning View Post
Character movement
hand placement

And somehow these things magically cannot be handled by anything but a dedicated controller with hardware buttons? 1oyvey.gif1confused.gif

Originally posted by Marvin

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Originally posted by Marvin

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post #57 of 107

For better or for worse, Apple is not going to release a controller for a console-like experience. Just No. They have iOS Devices which are the center of their gaming world. More accurately, they have iOS Devices that are THE center of THE gaming world.

Something that just about all console and PC gamers have yet to acknowledge/realize....their world is getting smaller. With every year that passes, console and pc gaming become LESS popular and LESS successful for entertainment companies. With every year that passes, Mobile Gaming, SPECIFICALLY, iOS gaming, becomes more popular and more lucrative for.

It isn't a debate. At all. iOS Device gaming, inferior as it may or may not be, is beating and will utterly annihilate console gaming. PS4 and XBox 720 will be the last dying vestige of interest in this department....and within 2-3 years, they will be dying to sell a game. Within 2-3 years, Nintendo will become insolvent and will pull their back-pocket card which is releasing touch versions of all their classic/major titles onto iOS, and they will survive for a time as a small Apple game developer.

Sony will suffer over PS4 but will not lose totally because of PS Mobile. They will maintain their mobile division and thus be around in gaming longer, perhaps 5 or 6 years more.

Microsoft will lose completely, and utterly be OUT of gaming within 4 years.

This is 100% unavoidable, and probably very close to accurate on time predictions. The average pc/console gamer will read that and say WHAT, you're crazy. Nope, this is what is happening in the market around you. Your ignorance of it does not change it one bit.

post #58 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zozman View Post

 

 

 

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, touchscreens are good for little puzzle games, angry birds & things like that, they really don't cut the mustard for games that require precision & finesse & yes lots of games need these things, generally not hand held games, i think a touch screen is a brilliant supplement to a physical controller, like the Wii U, PS4 & the ouya. on their own, not for serious gaming, My brother is a competition level gamer & I've been into it my whole life, PC & console games are on a different level on a few things, 1 is the immersiveness, 2nd thing is quality, new games that come out, really are amazing, they play out like movies with you playing them, this is why the game industry is rivaling Hollywood & makes alot of money. 

I was gonna be a real smart ass on this post, i changed my mind, damn. 

 

If only any of that mattered....at all. No one is going to tell you "you're wrong" about the current comparison between console and ios gaming quality. I AM going to tell you, however, that it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference in the real world, and the financial solvency of console gaming is being sucked into a black hole. The black hole is called mobile gaming, specifically, iOS gaming.

post #59 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

Usually those things are filled by third parties.

 

And they have been by a couple of dozen choices. Including the famed 'joke' icade and icade bitty

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post #60 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

, and the financial solvency of console gaming is being sucked into a black hole. The black hole is called mobile gaming, specifically, iOS gaming.

 

Yep, we are back in the mid 90s but Apple and mobile games are Microsoft and those 'way better" console games are the new Apple

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post #61 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

 

You already can via Airplay. 

And this fact raises an incredible series of other facts that spell out the climate.

 

-iOS developers have had ample opportunity to go all out, and develop game after game that use iOS device a controller, and Airplayed-content as the primary visual. There is nothing standing in the way of developers pushing for a console gaming experience with iOS device as the controller. There hasn't been anything in the way of that since iOS 5.

 

....but it hasn't happened save for a handful of not-so popular games. That is all the information anyone ever needs to know that there is NO market for Apps on AppleTV. 

 

Not getting it people? Let me spell it out: NO ONE WANTS IT. WHY? THE EXPERIENCE SUCKS.

 

Understand that this DOES NOT change at all if tomorrow Apple says, "Apple TV now has App Store. Go get 'em"

 

The experience of Facebook and Angry Birds and _insert app name_ still would SUCK being used on a TV. There is no if ands or buts about it. I mean don't you get it people? It is not happening because it is NOT GOOD.

 

There is nothing BETTER, nothing  AS GOOD, nothing even ALMOST as good, about TV Apps compared to just using the device in your freaking hand....the one already capable of giving you what you want.

 

And even if you're still ignorant and think it has some merit: Apple has two choices. 1) Make the iOS device the controller (which they would), which we already know would suck. 2) Take the iOS device out of your hand (freaking never) and give you some dedicated antiquated ridiculous hardware controller for your TV. FAIL.

 

It does not have a prayer people. Not a prayer.

post #62 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Well, then, it's a good thing that Apple isn't taking away your ability to buy whatever controller you want for your system.

The entire argument is a waste of time. Different people have different wants and needs. Some are happy with a touch screen. Others want a massive controller with 20 buttons and 3D gyro control.

 

Except it is not that generic, or simple. Businesses need to make decisions based on the numbers. And those numbers are saying that 90% of people only care to play $0.99 pick-up-and-go mobile gaming to satisfy their wants. The remaining 10% are the people who still give a damn about pre-ordering/lining up for the next $60 game that contains 3 hours of total play time.

post #63 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

Interesting that this debate continues unabated despite the rumor being shot down by the most reliable non-Apple source.

Assuming the developers weren't lying, there is still the matter of why Apple was at GDC and holding secretive meetings under a pseudonym.

That Phil Fish guy (Indie developer) said it was just 5 minutes of business.

They obviously haven't said anything more about it publicly so that would suggest they have some sort of NDA over what they talked about.

Assuming this short meeting happened, it involved at least one high profile Indie developer whose game isn't on iOS. It could just have been a meeting to persuade game developers to author on iOS but why would that be under NDA? They could be implementing tactile/gesture features but that doesn't need developer support before they implement it.

This event either didn't happen and there's some reason the developers are lying about it or Apple's up to something.
post #64 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

 

If only any of that mattered....at all. No one is going to tell you "you're wrong" about the current comparison between console and ios gaming quality. I AM going to tell you, however, that it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference in the real world, and the financial solvency of console gaming is being sucked into a black hole. The black hole is called mobile gaming, specifically, iOS gaming.

 

 

After reading all of what you have said in all your posts (in this page) It gives me the impression of someone that doesn't know the industry, which is OK, its alittle annoying getting told 'how things are' when someone clearing doesn't know how things are. 

An example of what people say about iOS gaming, iOS is one of the fastest growing platforms that has games, which isn't really a statistic you can use, if you didn't have a gaming presence, then you start one, its the largest growing (whatever it is) thing, if the users go from 1 to 5, it grew 500% & so on. 

What you wrote sounded sorta good, & isn't true (for now at least).

In a few years time, the direction i think games (will eventually take) will be mobile gaming of sorts, when phones are powerful enough (which they truly aren't powerful enough yet) to run next gen quality games, people could walk into their lounge room, sit on the couch, phone in pocket, connected to the TV then you can pick up a controller (which is connected to the phone wirelessly) then you can resume the game.

at that stage id be happy with that, If console & PC games stopped coming out tomorrow & phone games is all there were left, it would be a massive leap backwards, id be very disappointed. 

I'm so glad that isn't the reality of this world :) 

 

PS, the companies that make the systems don't make as much money as the game publishing companies, like your EAs or your Rockstars, they make billions, a high selling console & PC game on opening weekend makes Hollywood block buster money, its a massive industry.

& iOS is a great platform for them to release legacy titles on, so they can make some extra money, on games that are 10 years old & that barely make them any money these days, like GTA 3 10th anniversary release on IOS & old finial fantasys & so on. 

Of course there is new upstart companies that make angry birds as an example, the development is cheap (compared to a PC/console game) distribution is taken care of (app store) so there are less hands in the chain so they make money, its only 70c for every dollar (something like that) so profit is high i get that, however, buying an iOS game for a few $ isn't stopping me or anyone else in the main video game buying demographic of 18 & older (average gamers age is 30 years old) from buying PC/Console games (68% of all gamers are 18 & older, 68% of all gamers are 18 & older, I had to say it twice).

33% of all video games are played on phones or (25%) portable systems, which doesn't mean they don't play PC or console games at home.

Which isn't the majority but probably will be in a few years or more, but people would still like to play at home, they aren't mutually exclusive, you don't have to choose between portable gaming or home gaming, we can do both at different times.

I have more i could say, its 3AM here, i should probably stop, just more interesting facts & stats. 

 

Rant over.  

post #65 of 107
This is something I've wanted to see for many years now. I made an attempt to get something moving in this area back in 2009, but hit the intractable problem of Apple itself. Basically, something like this needs system-level support. Unlike Android, iOS doesn't support proper gamepads (with analog controls) over Bluetooth. And developing direct hardware interfaces using the old Dock or current Lightning connector requires a very expensive license from Apple.
If you're curious to see the mockup designs, the old site is still up. Maybe it'll be relevant again some day!
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post #66 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsol View Post

Unlike Android, iOS doesn't support proper gamepads (with analog controls) over Bluetooth. And developing direct hardware interfaces using the old Dock or current Lightning connector requires a very expensive license from Apple.

They got a patent last year for game controller connectivity:

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2012/07/apple-further-details-iphone-nfc-apps-for-tv-games-more.html



They've written down playing Prince of Persia Classic Edition.



The controller options seem to suggest using NFC to connect possibly a 3rd party controller (I notice they used Sony's controller as an example) to an iOS device or use the iOS device with an on-screen control scheme. It doesn't seem like a very good idea to need an iOS device to be near a 3rd party controller to control say, an Apple TV as you're just running down two sets of batteries. They can make a decent enough standalone controller without that.

Putting iOS devices aside, it's needed for OS X games. There are some big AAA titles on the Mac now like Arkham Asylum and the choices are keyboard and mouse or a 3rd party controller that might not be supported by the game.

If Apple was to build one, it really could be as simple as a Magic Trackpad design with 4 shoulder buttons + gryo and accelerometer. Vibration isn't needed and is usually just annoying but it can have the same vibration you get from an iPhone. Think of a $150 16GB iPod Nano without the display panel and the 16GB of memory and just a basic processing chip. It gets 30 hours of music playback. I suspect wireless connection would be less but the price at least should be reasonable. It can even have a 3.5mm headphone jack on it to save plugging into the source device.

This works for party games too. If you have a group of friends over and want to play some quiz game, you might have 1 iPad and 4 controllers. Split into 4 teams and the teams tap on the 'buzzer' to answer and the iPad knows which one got pressed first. It might be better if it had a display though because you could have card games and things. Although iPods and iPhones do this, they are expensive to buy just for this purpose.
post #67 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zozman View Post

 

 

After reading all of what you have said in all your posts (in this page) It gives me the impression of someone that doesn't know the industry, which is OK, its alittle annoying getting told 'how things are' when someone clearing doesn't know how things are. 

An example of what people say about iOS gaming, iOS is one of the fastest growing platforms that has games, which isn't really a statistic you can use, if you didn't have a gaming presence, then you start one, its the largest growing (whatever it is) thing, if the users go from 1 to 5, it grew 500% & so on. 

What you wrote sounded sorta good, & isn't true (for now at least).

In a few years time, the direction i think games (will eventually take) will be mobile gaming of sorts, when phones are powerful enough (which they truly aren't powerful enough yet) to run next gen quality games, people could walk into their lounge room, sit on the couch, phone in pocket, connected to the TV then you can pick up a controller (which is connected to the phone wirelessly) then you can resume the game.

at that stage id be happy with that, If console & PC games stopped coming out tomorrow & phone games is all there were left, it would be a massive leap backwards, id be very disappointed. 

I'm so glad that isn't the reality of this world :) 

 

PS, the companies that make the systems don't make as much money as the game publishing companies, like your EAs or your Rockstars, they make billions, a high selling console & PC game on opening weekend makes Hollywood block buster money, its a massive industry.

& iOS is a great platform for them to release legacy titles on, so they can make some extra money, on games that are 10 years old & that barely make them any money these days, like GTA 3 10th anniversary release on IOS & old finial fantasys & so on. 

Of course there is new upstart companies that make angry birds as an example, the development is cheap (compared to a PC/console game) distribution is taken care of (app store) so there are less hands in the chain so they make money, its only 70c for every dollar (something like that) so profit is high i get that, however, buying an iOS game for a few $ isn't stopping me or anyone else in the main video game buying demographic of 18 & older (average gamers age is 30 years old) from buying PC/Console games (68% of all gamers are 18 & older, 68% of all gamers are 18 & older, I had to say it twice).

33% of all video games are played on phones or (25%) portable systems, which doesn't mean they don't play PC or console games at home.

Which isn't the majority but probably will be in a few years or more, but people would still like to play at home, they aren't mutually exclusive, you don't have to choose between portable gaming or home gaming, we can do both at different times.

I have more i could say, its 3AM here, i should probably stop, just more interesting facts & stats. 

 

Rant over.  

 

After reading all that, it is no way a response to anything I said. 1) Your facts are wrong regarding "games" in general, and 2) You are not counting the people who  game exclusively on iOS devices as gamers. You couldn't be, or your numbers wouldn't look like that. Just the number of devices alone tells you all you need to know. Well that + usage/download/purchase statistics as they relate to games. But the number of devices really spells it out, mostly because of the incredibly low number of console devices being sold. Compared against the number of iOS devices, you couldn't even accidentally calculate numbers that look favorable for consoles.

 

And once you've done the numbers, you have to then get over the notion that it MATTERS, AT ALL that console games are far "better" than iOS games because of hardware. No one is doubting that. But it is turning out to be a NON-factor.

 

I have to say it twice. "better" games on console does not matter. It is only significant enough to have prevented the all out disintegration of consoles up to this point. Meaning, if they weren't so damn high quality, console gaming would have ENDED, already. We're not talking about beating, we're not talking about keeping up, we're not talking about break even business. We're talking END. GAME OVER, pun intended.

 

The climate has changed. You have 10s of millions of new buyers of iOS gaming devices every quarter. You have fewer PS consoles sold per quarter than AppleTV. By a few multiples. That is pathetic.

 

Every console game a physical disc that costs $60, and gives you an average of 2-3 hours of unique play time, unless it is a un-console like game. Only NOW are they beginning to see that this is a poor distribution method, and are looking to move to digital downloads.

 

Every console is immobile and tethered to your HDTV at home.

 

Every console itself costs hundreds of dollars and are not as multi function as an iOS device.

 

compared to....

 

An iOS device can be had for very cheap, or very expensive. Your choice.

 

Average game is $1.99, downloads in seconds, and offers endless game play, with the exception of the more console-like games.

 

Pickup and play, and time, any where, for a minute or for hours.

 

It is really an unbeatable model. And you can't even argue about console gamers switching their time over to mobile gaming (sacraficing "good" games for "poor" games, as you would say......even though they are!), because the sheer numbers of NEW gamers out weighs it all. 

 

The GAMING DOLLARS are going to attract the Gaming Developers. Yes, developers are going to stop making console games in favor of iOS games, because they stand to make infinitely more money as time goes on.

post #68 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

After reading all that, it is no way a response to anything I said. 1) Your facts are wrong regarding "games" in general, and 2) You are not counting the people who  game exclusively on iOS devices as gamers.

That's the whole story right there.

You have a series of "real" gamers who won't play anything less than the latest console or a state of the art PC. Anything less is beneath them and doesn't count.

It's as if Mario Andretti said that everyone drives a 600 HP monster capable of 200 mph, but with no back seat.

It's just best to ignore them. If they want to live in their own world, it doesn't hurt anyone else.
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post #69 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Every console game a physical disc that costs $60, and gives you an average of 2-3 hours of unique play time, unless it is a un-console like game.

I don't remember many AAA titles having 2-3 hours of play time. It's definitely not the average playing time. There are times listed on the following site:

http://www.gamelengths.com

I'd say it's closer to 10 hours but that's for the single player games. Multiplayer games and RPGs can last very long. Skyrim has an average on that site of 190 hours with 10 samples.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Average game is $1.99, downloads in seconds, and offers endless game play, with the exception of the more console-like games.

It depends on how you define 'endless gameplay'. Excel has endless gameplay too if you have fun doing the same basic tasks over and over again. Catapulting an Angry Bird over and over and over can be addictive but it's not entertaining for everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

The GAMING DOLLARS are going to attract the Gaming Developers. Yes, developers are going to stop making console games in favor of iOS games, because they stand to make infinitely more money as time goes on.

This isn't really true. Apple has paid out $8b since the beginning of the App Store to all developers combined and most of it is split between the top 25 or so developers. Activision made $1b in the first two weeks from Black Ops 2.

Gameloft last year made about $262m in revenue in 2012:

http://www.insidemobileapps.com/2012/11/05/gameloft-revenues-hit-e55-4m-up-37-y-o-y-for-another-record-quarter/

That's from both iOS and Android and all of their titles over 12 months. Still just 1/5th of a AAA developer with 1 title in 2 weeks.

Epic stated that Infinity Blade was their most profitable title:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/173072/Epics_Sweeney_Platform_convergence_freemium_the_inevitable_future.php

but that's in terms of return on investment. In terms of overall revenue, it was only $30m.

I'd say iOS is great for Indie developers because it removes the problems of distribution and the quality expectations as well as giving a healthy margin and ensuring every sale is a first-time sale. It can work for AAA developers too but they can't spend $50m making a game and then get $30m in revenue.

Visibility is a big problem too. Steam has about 1100 games total that can be browsed through in half an hour and you can instantly recognise the major titles and know they weren't put together by some kid in a bedroom learning how to make games. The ratio of good quality to poor quality titles is far higher with the AAA development process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta 
You have a series of "real" gamers who won't play anything less than the latest console or a state of the art PC. Anything less is beneath them and doesn't count.

I wouldn't say that makes up the majority of console and PC gamers. There is a group of gamers that wouldn't even touch a console. But there are simple facts to recognise.

This year, there are 3 very highly rated games out: Tomb Raider, Hitman Absolution and Bioshock Infinite. Not one of those is on an iOS device. So the console and PC market still has an important advantage and that is high quality titles.

People dismiss mobile gaming simply because of a lack of quality titles. If people recommended quality mobile titles rather than simply said that mobile gaming is taking over then perhaps that would change.

So, what are the recommendations for quality iOS titles? I'm sure the lists will be huge as there's so many games to choose from but let's say 5 quality iOS titles released in the last year.
post #70 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

And somehow these things magically cannot be handled by anything but a dedicated controller with hardware buttons? 1oyvey.gif1confused.gif

No, not really. You have to place dedicated objects on the screen, losing screen real estate in the process, or you have to place complicated swiping etc movements, blocking the screen in the process.
post #71 of 107

I'd rather they defined as new framework for a controller that provided an on screen set of standard controls that could be assigned to a bluetooth controller - maybe work with the industry to nail this down.  I'd also hope that they'd submit that spec as a new bluetooth profile (assuming one doesn't already exist - if it does then use that) so any third party manufacturer could build a compatible joypad, joystick, or case, or other similar peripheral.  Games could then use part or all of this framework (maybe link it to Game Center), or make up their own.

 

I don't think gaming and controllers is one of Apple's strengths, so better to provide the infrastructure, and leave the donkey work to the professionals and enthusiasts.

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post #72 of 107
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post
No, not really. You have to place dedicated objects on the screen, losing screen real estate in the process, or you have to place complicated swiping etc movements, blocking the screen in the process.

 

The idea is that the content being viewed is on the TV. That's the concept here, yeah?

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #73 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
So, what are the recommendations for quality iOS titles? I'm sure the lists will be huge as there's so many games to choose from but let's say 5 quality iOS titles released in the last year.

 

Final Fantasy 4 

GTA Vice City 

The World Ends With You 

Sonic 4: Episode II

Chaos Rings II 

 

4/5 of those games started on different platforms, and only 1 title is an original title developed exclusively for iOS. 

 

There is definitely high quality gaming to be had on iOS but if you look at the prices of a few of these games, quality = cost, and quite simply people arent buying them like they do .99 or free games. 

 

Isn't it funny that there is over 1 billion smartphones on the planet and even the largest of developers right now like Square Enix and EA are taking massive beatings financially and they support mobile gaming with some of the best stuff out there and take in the lionshare of money made? Isn't this not supposed to happen, as everyone who loves to claim that consoles are going to be wiped out by mobile gaming with Apple yet mobile gaming doesnt even represent 10% of EAs quarterly or yearly revenue. 

post #74 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

 

After reading all that, it is no way a response to anything I said. 1) Your facts are wrong regarding "games" in general, and 2) You are not counting the people who  game exclusively on iOS devices as gamers. You couldn't be, or your numbers wouldn't look like that. Just the number of devices alone tells you all you need to know. Well that + usage/download/purchase statistics as they relate to games. But the number of devices really spells it out, mostly because of the incredibly low number of console devices being sold. Compared against the number of iOS devices, you couldn't even accidentally calculate numbers that look favorable for consoles.

 

And once you've done the numbers, you have to then get over the notion that it MATTERS, AT ALL that console games are far "better" than iOS games because of hardware. No one is doubting that. But it is turning out to be a NON-factor.

 

I have to say it twice. "better" games on console does not matter. It is only significant enough to have prevented the all out disintegration of consoles up to this point. Meaning, if they weren't so damn high quality, console gaming would have ENDED, already. We're not talking about beating, we're not talking about keeping up, we're not talking about break even business. We're talking END. GAME OVER, pun intended.

 

The climate has changed. You have 10s of millions of new buyers of iOS gaming devices every quarter. You have fewer PS consoles sold per quarter than AppleTV. By a few multiples. That is pathetic.

 

Every console game a physical disc that costs $60, and gives you an average of 2-3 hours of unique play time, unless it is a un-console like game. Only NOW are they beginning to see that this is a poor distribution method, and are looking to move to digital downloads.

 

Every console is immobile and tethered to your HDTV at home.

 

Every console itself costs hundreds of dollars and are not as multi function as an iOS device.

 

compared to....

 

An iOS device can be had for very cheap, or very expensive. Your choice.

 

Average game is $1.99, downloads in seconds, and offers endless game play, with the exception of the more console-like games.

 

Pickup and play, and time, any where, for a minute or for hours.

 

It is really an unbeatable model. And you can't even argue about console gamers switching their time over to mobile gaming (sacraficing "good" games for "poor" games, as you would say......even though they are!), because the sheer numbers of NEW gamers out weighs it all. 

 

The GAMING DOLLARS are going to attract the Gaming Developers. Yes, developers are going to stop making console games in favor of iOS games, because they stand to make infinitely more money as time goes on.

 

The facts & stats are not with you sir, sorry. 
I can't respond to a lot of what you said, because i think you made it up, the numbers i gave are current & legitimate, sorry if that doesn't work for you, you can't fight the night, if you try, just look like a fool throwing punches in the air & in the dark, I'm kidding :) .... but seriously, stop it 

On other topics i might agree with you, not this time, sorry dude, you are not correct, this might all change in the future, just don't see it happening, with the way iOS hardware is set up right now.

 

To kinda get back on point, I've wanted Apple to bring out a controller from the start of the app store, i think its stopping a lot of gamers from considering iOS as a legitimate gaming system, if a controller comes out, people can play either retro games or some slightly older games, the way they were designed (with analog buttons (sometimes) & precise controls, i know at least 10 people that would buy a control pad for iOS devices, maybe more.
apple is about the experience, the current way of gaming on a touchscreen isn't even close, with a control pad, i could see, apple making a serious run at completely dominating mobile gaming, in the future, all gaming (unlikely), a larger company might then add iOS to its main release schedule with the consoles & PCs then, (with tweaks to make it run better, lower detail & effects) that's when the serious choices might be made, i can't consider iOS for a game like uncharted, because its not released on iOS at all & when the games i do play do come out, like i said before they are at least 10 years old, if a major title gets released on iOS & PS4 at the same time (If apple makes a control pad) i might seriously pick the iOS version for price & convenience. 

 

PS, Totally agree with Marvin, very strong points.
The funny thing is, we are through the first quarter of the year & PC/Consoles have already had a few major realizes, combine the earnings of those games, id be very interesting in seeing what that is, the new 'gears of war' & 'god of war', later this year, 'the last of us', 'GTA5' & 'Watch dogs', GTA5s release will make the news, its that big a deal.
 

post #75 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

The idea is that the content being viewed is on the TV. That's the concept here, yeah?

So while you are looking the TV you are able to touch the exact place where the virtual controls are placed on a flat smooth screen? And where these virtual controls will be in a different location for every game. Good job if you can, but somehow I don't think you can
post #76 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Every console game a physical disc that costs $60, and gives you an average of 2-3 hours of unique play time, unless it is a un-console like game. Only NOW are they beginning to see that this is a poor distribution method, and are looking to move to digital downloads.

Rubbish, if you are paying $60 for a console game then learn how to shop around. And the games provide much more than 2.3 hours of play
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Every console itself costs hundreds of dollars and are not as multi function as an iOS device.

compared to....

An iOS device can be had for very cheap, or very expensive. Your choice.

In NZ all iOS devices (that can play games) are more expensive than the PS3, the Xbox 360, the PS Vita, the iOS devices are far from "cheap"

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Average game is $1.99, downloads in seconds, and offers endless game play, with the exception of the more console-like games.

So in other words, they are small games, with limited features, and limited game play?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

The GAMING DOLLARS are going to attract the Gaming Developers. Yes, developers are going to stop making console games in favor of iOS games, because they stand to make infinitely more money as time goes on.

How many billion dollar games are there on iOS devices? And how many years out are they?
post #77 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Rubbish, if you are paying $60 for a console game then learn how to shop around. And the games provide much more than 2.3 hours of play
In NZ all iOS devices (that can play games) are more expensive than the PS3, the Xbox 360, the PS Vita, the iOS devices are far from "cheap"
So in other words, they are small games, with limited features, and limited game play?
How many billion dollar games are there on iOS devices? And how many years out are they?

Way to prove that you've missed the point entirely.

There aren't billion dollar games for iOS devices (AFAIK) simply because the games are cheap and used for 'on the spot' playing. The dedicated gamers who live in their parents' basement and can't stop playing the game long enough to take a shower once a week or so aren't going to be the ones using mobile devices. But they're in the minority. Even with the price difference between iOS games (many of which are free) and console/PC games, mobile has already taken a big (and growing) slice of the pie.

They're different audiences. No one is taking your console game away from you. That market will survive (or not) based on its own characteristics and the success of the people in that market in meeting the needs of the customers. The mobile market is entirely different and it's silly to hold it to the same standards.
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post #78 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifail View Post

Final Fantasy 4 
GTA Vice City 
The World Ends With You 
Sonic 4: Episode II
Chaos Rings II 

4/5 of those games started on different platforms, and only 1 title is an original title developed exclusively for iOS.

Exactly, the quality titles mostly come from the AAA development process targeted at consoles with a handful of exceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifail View Post

Isn't it funny that there is over 1 billion smartphones on the planet and even the largest of developers right now like Square Enix and EA are taking massive beatings financially and they support mobile gaming with some of the best stuff out there and take in the lionshare of money made? Isn't this not supposed to happen, as everyone who loves to claim that consoles are going to be wiped out by mobile gaming with Apple yet mobile gaming doesnt even represent 10% of EAs quarterly or yearly revenue.

Yes, it's mostly the publishers who target consoles that make the most money in mobile so there's no hope of mobile having a negative effect on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta 
There aren't billion dollar games for iOS devices (AFAIK) simply because the games are cheap and used for 'on the spot' playing. The dedicated gamers who live in their parents' basement and can't stop playing the game long enough to take a shower once a week or so aren't going to be the ones using mobile devices.

You're right, mobile games don't have enough immersion to keep gamers attached to their screens. There's no emotional connection. That's really the problem that's being highlighted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta 
Even with the price difference between iOS games (many of which are free) and console/PC games, mobile has already taken a big (and growing) slice of the pie.

It has outgrown PC gaming but is still short of console gaming:

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/It-Official-Mobile-Gaming-Kill-Console-Gaming-43563.html

They reckon mobile gaming will make up 20% of revenues by 2016. It's hard to say though because mobile hardware and software APIs will become as powerful as last-gen consoles later this year. That means we'll see more AAA games being ported to the platform. With 100 million or more new customers, it's going to accelerate pretty rapidly.

The Tomb Raider game that was released this year was under 8GB in size. That could easily be ported into a 2GB game for iOS. If they could do that and allow people to plug in an iPad to a TV via HDMI and have a controller of some kind, that would blur the line between mobile and console gaming and allows iOS devices to eat more into the profits from consoles like the Wii U. An iPad that could do that would destroy the Wii U and it would affect the next-gen consoles too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta 
They're different audiences. No one is taking your console game away from you.

That's in agreement with what people are saying. The suggestion is usually that console gaming is dying out and mobile gaming is taking over but that's far from the case and it's clear when a single developer can make 5x more from a single game in 2 weeks than a mobile developer makes in an entire year from all of their games.
post #79 of 107
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post
So while you are looking the TV you are able to touch the exact place where the virtual controls are placed on a flat smooth screen?

 

Uh, yeah. Why can't you? I can touch type on my iPad just like any other system. 


And where these virtual controls will be in a different location for every game. Good job if you can, but somehow I don't think you can

 

The only person that "can't" something is you. And that "can't" is, apparently, have the creativity to envision a system that MOVES THE CONTROLS to be under your fingers instead of the other way around. iOS games already do this.

 

It shouldn't matter where my fingers go. I can have ten commands right in front of me at all times! Sixteen, actually. They should just always be there.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #80 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Way to prove that you've missed the point entirely.

There aren't billion dollar games for iOS devices (AFAIK) simply because the games are cheap and used for 'on the spot' playing. The dedicated gamers who live in their parents' basement and can't stop playing the game long enough to take a shower once a week or so aren't going to be the ones using mobile devices. But they're in the minority. Even with the price difference between iOS games (many of which are free) and console/PC games, mobile has already taken a big (and growing) slice of the pie.

They're different audiences. No one is taking your console game away from you. That market will survive (or not) based on its own characteristics and the success of the people in that market in meeting the needs of the customers. The mobile market is entirely different and it's silly to hold it to the same standards.

 

Way to generalize console gamers lol but anyways...why isn't there billion dollar games? The mobile gaming market is technically 4 times bigger than console gaming in terms of sheer users yet they aren't anywhere near the same revenue stream. The stagnant and slumping current console market still brings in far more money than mobile gaming will most likely ever hit in the next 10-20 years.

 

The argument i think most people like myself grow incredibly tired of hearing is that Apple is going to magically transform an industry that caters to users on the go with time sinks that cost .99 or free with in-app purchases (FYI this is where the vast majority of mobile gaming revenue comes from if you didnt know, not actually the cost of the app, with ads being the second largest for mobile revenue in games) and just come in and wipe the floor in traditional living room gaming if they make a controller...the data simply just doesnt support it. Its also why the Ouya i believe will be a flop. 

 

Mobile gamers aren't "loyal" to titles, one day they're playing your games and you're raking in big money, then a couple months later they've moved on and you're stuck (remember Draw Something? Look at how Zynga has been struggling for awhile now even when capitalizing on this mobile social industry). You can't count on this kind of revenue if you want to make it big in the living room. 

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