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post #81 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Uh, yeah. Why can't you? I can touch type on my iPad just like any other system. 

 

The only person that "can't" something is you. And that "can't" is, apparently, have the creativity to envision a system that MOVES THE CONTROLS to be under your fingers instead of the other way around. iOS games already do this.

 

It shouldn't matter where my fingers go. I can have ten commands right in front of me at all times! Sixteen, actually. They should just always be there.

 

I think you're missing what he's saying, i consider myself an extremely good gamer and i cannot utilize a touchscreen for controls without looking at the screen because there is no feedback to let you what you're touching. Basic controls are easy where the movement is on the left side of the screen and there is maybe one or two buttons on the right edge, start adding in more buttons and you see the real problem. 

 

I've Airplayed Vice City from my iPad and it was horrific, it was impossible to look solely at the TV and hit the controls EVERY TIME. It made the game terrible to play and quite simply just frustrating that i quit and went back to just playing it on my ipad. Even with Final Fantasy 3, exploring the game is fine but when it comes to battles its a pain in the ass to play as its hard to always select what you want in battle if you're looking only at the TV. These control issues make the game a problem that shouldnt exist (its a problem when airplaying) and is why you need physical buttons to hit a wide array of games that can be more complex and intuitive than what solely a touchscreen can offer. 

post #82 of 107
Originally Posted by ifail View Post
I think you're missing what he's saying…

 

I know you're missing what I'm saying.

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

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post #83 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifail View Post

Way to generalize console gamers lol but anyways...why isn't there billion dollar games? The mobile gaming market is technically 4 times bigger than console gaming in terms of sheer users yet they aren't anywhere near the same revenue stream. The stagnant and slumping current console market still brings in far more money than mobile gaming will most likely ever hit in the next 10-20 years.

Obviously, the reason that the console gaming market brings in more revenue is $50 games instead of $0.99 (or less) games.

But even with free and $0.99 games, the mobile market has gone from essentially nothing to 25% of the entire gaming market in just a couple of years. Given that rate of growth, it's unlikely that your 10-20 year projection is correct.

But, again, it's irrelevant. They're different markets and are not cannibalizing each other. To a large degree, it is unlikely that any die-hard gamers are going to stop playing their massive games to switch to Fruit Ninja. (There will, however, be some loss at the low end - people who rarely play their expensive console might stop buying games for it).
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post #84 of 107
Apple believes touch controls are far superior to physical controls.
post #85 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

But even with free and $0.99 games, the mobile market has gone from essentially nothing to 25% of the entire gaming market in just a couple of years. Given that rate of growth, it's unlikely that your 10-20 year projection is correct.

But, again, it's irrelevant. They're different markets and are not cannibalizing each other. To a large degree, it is unlikely that any die-hard gamers are going to stop playing their massive games to switch to Fruit Ninja. (There will, however, be some loss at the low end - people who rarely play their expensive console might stop buying games for it).

Stats will vary a bit but PC and console revenue is currently pretty close at around $20b each:

http://www.pcper.com/news/Editorial/PC-Gaming-Surpass-Console-Gaming-Revenue-2015

PC gamers number 1 billion:

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/PC-Gaming-Hits-20-Billion-2012-Has-One-Billion-Gamers-Worldwide-54115.html

Mobile looks to have reached about $9b:

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20130301005213/en/Mobile-Gaming-Market-Grows-9-Billion-OBJE

That puts mobile gaming at just under 20% of overall revenue since about 4 years ago, though the latter years are most significant. Sometimes mobile game revenues include the DS, PSP and Vita, which is about the same as the phone/tablet devices. The mobile devices are eating away at the portable consoles quite quickly and will contribute a lot to their growth.

There are projections here that suggest by 2017, the PC, console and mobile will have a fairly even revenue split:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-06-21-global-gaming-market-console-is-not-dead

Consoles get locked into a 10 year lifecycle and PCs are really as powerful as they need to be for gaming so by 2017, they will pretty much all be equal platforms, especially if Intel makes bigger moves into mobile devices.

I think people will still pick sides between casual gaming and immersive gaming but it shouldn't be dictated by platform. You can be a casual gamer on a PC or a phone and you will be able to enjoy immersive AAA titles on any platform. It just happens to be the case at the moment that primarily immersive games go on the PC and console, and casual games go on the phones and tablets partly due to the controls, price, hardware and target audience distribution. Higher prices, better hardware and software APIs coming this year and varied control schemes would change this.

Apple's revenues would jump if they could sell lots of apps that command a higher price point. If there was a billion dollar franchise on iOS, they'd make 30% of it so it's definitely something they should promote.
post #86 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

And you can do that with iDevices.

No you can't. Not currently. Unless the game requires minimal input your thumbs migrate away from the virtual "buttons", you lose precision and it is a generally horrible and frustrating gaming experience.

Since this console iteration Nintendo jumped the shark it would have been nice to move to apple-only but I guess that was always going to be too much to ask.

It's a real shame Steve never believed in gaming enough to cultivate it on the Mac platform in any meaningful sense. Even today major titles like Bio Shock Infinite launch on PC with a mac version "coming soon... (maybe)".
post #87 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post


-iOS developers have had ample opportunity to go all out, and develop game after game that use iOS device a controller, and Airplayed-content as the primary visual. There is nothing standing in the way of developers pushing for a console gaming experience with iOS device as the controller. There hasn't been anything in the way of that since iOS 5.

You mean other than the relative scarcity of aTVs and the lag?
Quote:
....but it hasn't happened save for a handful of not-so popular games. That is all the information anyone ever needs to know that there is NO market for Apps on AppleTV. 

Not getting it people? Let me spell it out: NO ONE WANTS IT. WHY? THE EXPERIENCE SUCKS.

Without dedicated game controllers I agree. It would suck.

An official SDK for a kinect like system and traditional controllers would be required for success along with solid apple hardware.
Quote:
There is nothing BETTER, nothing  AS GOOD, nothing even ALMOST as good, about TV Apps compared to just using the device in your freaking hand....the one already capable of giving you what you want.

Multiplayer on a common screen. Whether a dance game or a party game or a board game a large shared screen is better.

A lag free large screen shooter is more immersive than a handheld experience.

Your dumb assed assertion is the same as claiming that because movies play on a iPad really well that HDTVs have no merit or future.
post #88 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

.

Microsoft will lose completely, and utterly be OUT of gaming within 4 years.

This is 100% unavoidable, and probably very close to accurate on time predictions. The average pc/console gamer will read that and say WHAT, you're crazy. Nope, this is what is happening in the market around you. Your ignorance of it does not change it one bit.

It's funny but we have a MS store in our mall and the thing that draws a crowd are teens playing dance central in the hallway.

Given that these players are very often girls (and cute ones) and they are good at the game tells me that the person that is ignorant about the state of gaming is you.

Ms won't be out of the gaming industry in 4 years unless they totally f-up their next console. Plus you seem to fail to realize that the current consoles are near the end of their run.

This is just like claiming the iPhone has lost popularity because sales are lower right before a refresh.
post #89 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Way to prove that you've missed the point entirely.

What point have I missed?

I am yet to see a games that has been released for iOS that is going to make me run out and drop $450 for the basic iPod touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

There aren't billion dollar games for iOS devices (AFAIK) simply because the games are cheap and used for 'on the spot' playing. The dedicated gamers who live in their parents' basement and can't stop playing the game long enough to take a shower once a week or so aren't going to be the ones using mobile devices. But they're in the minority. Even with the price difference between iOS games (many of which are free) and console/PC games, mobile has already taken a big (and growing) slice of the pie.

considering how big Nintendo has been, especially in the mobile consoles, I would have thought mobile would have takes a big slice of the pie for quite a while now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

They're different audiences. No one is taking your console game away from you. That market will survive (or not) based on its own characteristics and the success of the people in that market in meeting the needs of the customers. The mobile market is entirely different and it's silly to hold it to the same standards.

Different audiences? Are they? I think you will find there is quite a bit of overlap between them
post #90 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Uh, yeah. Why can't you? I can touch type on my iPad just like any other system. 


Congratulations, you have a one in a billion skill set there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

The only person that "can't" something is you. And that "can't" is, apparently, have the creativity to envision a system that MOVES THE CONTROLS to be under your fingers instead of the other way around. iOS games already do this.

It shouldn't matter where my fingers go. I can have ten commands right in front of me at all times! Sixteen, actually. They should just always be there.

This is the crap that you say that pisses people off, you cannot honestly sit there and claim that you can by touch tell where all virtual controls are without looking at them.

I can envision this crap all you like, unlike you I own a console that has touch screen and physical controls, and believe me it is terrible each time you are made to use the touch screen, each games places the controls in a stupid place, they don't flow well from one control to the next, I am yet to be convinced that this problem will be solved by a flat glass service with no feedback to tell you where you hands are, and no consistency between games. I don't sit there looking at my hands playing a console game, I wouldn't want to be sitting there staring at my hands playing a game using a tablet as a controller.

The shape of a tablet leads it to being a terrible controller for a start
post #91 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifail View Post

I think you're missing what he's saying, i consider myself an extremely good gamer and i cannot utilize a touchscreen for controls without looking at the screen because there is no feedback to let you what you're touching. Basic controls are easy where the movement is on the left side of the screen and there is maybe one or two buttons on the right edge, start adding in more buttons and you see the real problem. 

I've Airplayed Vice City from my iPad and it was horrific, it was impossible to look solely at the TV and hit the controls EVERY TIME. It made the game terrible to play and quite simply just frustrating that i quit and went back to just playing it on my ipad. Even with Final Fantasy 3, exploring the game is fine but when it comes to battles its a pain in the ass to play as its hard to always select what you want in battle if you're looking only at the TV. These control issues make the game a problem that shouldnt exist (its a problem when airplaying) and is why you need physical buttons to hit a wide array of games that can be more complex and intuitive than what solely a touchscreen can offer. 

Thank you, I'm glad to see others see the limitations
post #92 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Way to prove that you've missed the point entirely.

There aren't billion dollar games for iOS devices (AFAIK) simply because the games are cheap and used for 'on the spot' playing. The dedicated gamers who live in their parents' basement and can't stop playing the game long enough to take a shower once a week or so aren't going to be the ones using mobile devices. But they're in the minority. Even with the price difference between iOS games (many of which are free) and console/PC games, mobile has already taken a big (and growing) slice of the pie.

They're different audiences. No one is taking your console game away from you. That market will survive (or not) based on its own characteristics and the success of the people in that market in meeting the needs of the customers. The mobile market is entirely different and it's silly to hold it to the same standards.

If smelly basement dwelling hard core gamers are in the minority who are buying sufficient games to make some of the console titles blockbusters?

The stereotype is stupid. I do not know a single kid in any of my three kids' peer groups that do not own a console. My kids are the oddballs since they don't have a 360.

These same kids have iPads and iPod touches...or at least access to mom and dad's iOS devices. There is huge overlap in the demographics and anyone that doesn't get that is either old or doesn't have non-adult kids or both.
post #93 of 107
Originally Posted by Dunks View Post
No you can't.

 

I'm not going back and forth with someone who obviously has never played a game that does this. Go download the Epic Citadel demo (free, of course) and then come back and tell me either that I can't do it or it can't be done.1oyvey.gif


Originally Posted by jfanning View Post
Congratulations, you have a one in a billion skill set there.

 

Bringing facetiousness into a serious argument isn't the way for anyone to believe you.


This is the crap that you say that pisses people off, you cannot honestly sit there and claim that you can by touch tell where all virtual controls are without looking at them.

 

I can tell, by touch, where the virtual controls are without looking for them. I assume you're further upset now. I don't care. Claiming that it cannot be done is ludicrous, but the ease with which it is done has multiple factors involved.


…each games places the controls in a stupid place…

 

That's funny. It certainly doesn't sound like that's the problem of the specific software and not the overall concept. NOPE, not at all¡

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

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post #94 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I'm not going back and forth with someone who obviously has never played a game that does this. Go download the Epic Citadel demo (free, of course) and then come back and tell me either that I can't do it or it can't be done.1oyvey.gif

Don't own an iOS device, can't do this sorry. How about you download a PS Vita game and see the difference between physical and viritual controllers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Bringing facetiousness into a serious argument isn't the way for anyone to believe you.

You won't believe me no matter what I say
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I can tell, by touch, where the virtual controls are without looking for them. I assume you're further upset now. I don't care. Claiming that it cannot be done is ludicrous, but the ease with which it is done has multiple factors involved.

I'm not upset, I just don't beleive you. You can't tell me you can use a flat piece of glass as a replacement for a controller in games like Uncharted, or Call of Duty, even PC gamers don't use a flat object
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

That's funny. It certainly doesn't sound like that's the problem of the specific software and not the overall concept. NOPE, not at all¡

Yes it is, as each piece of software will place their butons in their own location, no consistancy between games
post #95 of 107
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post
You won't believe me no matter what I say

 

Only because I know the truth.


I'm not upset, I just don't beleive you.

 

That's fine. Try it out!


You can't tell me you can use a flat piece of glass as a replacement for a controller in games like Uncharted, or Call of Duty, even PC gamers don't use a flat object

 

I don't see why one couldn't.


Yes it is, as each piece of software will place their butons in their own location, no consistancy between games

 

*grizzled old man face* "You'se got ten fingers, don't'cha? Sounds t'me like there's plenty of consistency."

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

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post #96 of 107
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

I don't see why one couldn't.

 

Honestly, touch screen is good at lots of things, not great at everything, sometimes you need the right tool for the job, touchscreen doesn't give you the Resistance or feedback that people need, if you need to hammer a nail you get a hammer.

controller is a good tool for the job (for most games), for fighting games its a joystick for car games a steering wheel, you could get a touch screen to do a marginal job at this, not the right tool for the job & not the full experience, the touch screen is a compromise, its that simple.  

post #97 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Only because I know the truth.

That is a quote we can use for almost all your replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

That's fine. Try it out!

Can you please start reading, I have already said I didn't think it was practical
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I don't see why one couldn't.

That's because you won't listen to anyone, I have already details some reasons
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

*grizzled old man face* "You'se got ten fingers, don't'cha? Sounds t'me like there's plenty of consistency."

It doesn't matter how many fingers I have, I said I don't think it is practical
post #98 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zozman View Post

Honestly, touch screen is good at lots of things, not great at everything, sometimes you need the right tool for the job, touchscreen doesn't give you the Resistance or feedback that people need, if you need to hammer a nail you get a hammer.
controller is a good tool for the job (for most games), for fighting games its a joystick for car games a steering wheel, you could get a touch screen to do a marginal job at this, not the right tool for the job & not the full experience, the touch screen is a compromise, its that simple.  

Of course it's a compromise. It's for people who want to play games on their phone rather than carrying a console, TV, joystick, and generator with them everywhere they go.

Mobile gaming and console/PC gaming are different things entirely - and they have (largely) different audiences.
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post #99 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

It's for people who want to play games on their phone rather than carrying a console, TV, joystick, and generator with them everywhere they go.

That's a good point. iOS devices are mobile devices and typically controllers aren't made for mobile devices. You don't for example get controllers for the PSP, Vita or DS.

People do use mice for laptops but taking controllers with you would be the exception.

The biggest use case I'd actually see for a controller is for OS X gaming and when the tablet or phone is docked to a TV (which won't be commonplace). It depends how it would be made though. There are card games and board games that use iOS devices to link with an iPad. Controllers with displays could be used for this e.g you have Scrabble tiles on each controller and the board on the iPad so you can come up with words before it's your turn to play.
post #100 of 107
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post
Can you please start reading, I have already said I didn't think it was practical

 

So try it out. What you think doesn't matter if you're not willing to be proven wrong.


That's because you won't listen to anyone, I have already details some reasons

 

And I reject them—partially because they're ludicrous to think, partially because you've admitted you don't have the credentials to think them in the first place. Try out a game that does this!


It doesn't matter how many fingers I have, I said I don't think it is practical

 

Noted. And once you've actually tried such a system, your opinion will matter.

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

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post #101 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Mobile gaming and console/PC gaming are different things entirely - and they have (largely) different audiences.

 

Folks say that a lot but show no proof that the audiences are actually largely different.

 

http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2012.pdf

 

Given that:  

 

The average US Household owns at least one dedicated game console, PC or smartphone 

 

AND

 

49% of US Households own a dedicated console and those that do own an average of 2

 

AND

 

the statistic that of the households that own a dedicated game console, PC or smartphone 70% play games on their consoles, 65% on PCs, 38% on smartphones, 35% on dedicated handhelds and 26% on wireless devices.

 

THEN

 

the overlap between mobile gamers and console gamers isn't likely to be less than 50% and more likely to be closer to 70%+ than 50%.  

 

If you have better data, please provide a link.

post #102 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

And I reject them—partially because they're ludicrous to think, partially because you've admitted you don't have the credentials to think them in the first place. Try out a game that does this!

What is your problem with reading. I said I have tried such a system, and I don't like it.

Perhaps you can provide some good examples of why you think a flat piece of glass is a viable alterative to a physial controller, because so far youhaven't provided a single one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Noted. And once you've actually tried such a system, your opinion will matter.

Again, what is your problem with reading. I said I have tried such a system, and I don't like it.
post #103 of 107
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post
I said I have tried such a system, and I don't like it.

 

NO. YOU HAVEN'T.

 

Don't own an iOS device, can't do this sorry.

 

So which is it?

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

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post #104 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrangerFX View Post

More important the the controller will be a standard SDK for supporting game controllers for iOS. This would allow both Apple and third parties to design game controllers that will work with all games that support the SDK. Remember that Apple will be make a lot more money selling iOS devices than game controllers but having a first party reference design will be needed to get the ball rolling. I suggested this approach to Apple about two years ago. I hope this rumor is true.

Totally agree. I've been expecting this for so long and I just can't understand why they haven't implemented it yet. They don't even need to build the hardware.

Imagine the Apple TV suddenly becomes a gaming console, iPhones attached with a game controller wipes out the mobile gaming console competitors such as Sony and Nintendo. The potential is limitless. We just need a few APIs. Come on, Apple, get your act together!
post #105 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Of course it's a compromise. It's for people who want to play games on their phone rather than carrying a console, TV, joystick, and generator with them everywhere they go.

Mobile gaming and console/PC gaming are different things entirely - and they have (largely) different audiences.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


That's a good point. iOS devices are mobile devices and typically controllers aren't made for mobile devices. You don't for example get controllers for the PSP, Vita or DS.
 

 

 

I Agree, the thing is, i don't want a controller for my iPhone, but for the iPad it has come cool possibilities.

You put your iPad on a table, then with 2 controllers you could play a game like soul calibur 2 player :), or if you set up 2 iPads (or more) & have a control pad for each, play some system linked games, that's a mobile LAN game party right there, the most mobile, easy to configure & set up one, ever.

People could sit around with friends playing games together.

 

The PSP, Vita & DS doesn't need to come with an extra controller, by design they are controllers with a screen built in, so they don't have the issue that iOS devices have, I don't want hardware buttons permanently attached to my iPad, that's why the control pad makes sense to me, or a case that has buttons, not so much but better than how things are now, the reason these things are getting rumored, new controllers are coming out all the time & is picking up steam on android devices, android doesn't have the game selection & for the most part, doesn't have the devices that can run the games well, Id rather see apple bring out a controller for a small market, like a hobby accessory then be caught with their pants down if the idea booms. 

 
My head almost exploded then, thought of something so cool, if apple bring out a TV with a built in processor, would be like a lounge room version of an iMac with 42" screen (running a custom TV OS), that could play games, would be so cool having a controller that lets your iPhone plug into it, so you could play games with physical buttons & the iPhones touch screen in the middle, could be like a non-fail version of the Wii U, I'm probably the only person that would want that, haha.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Perhaps you can provide some good examples of why you think a flat piece of glass is a viable alterative to a physial controller, because so far youhaven't provided a single one.
 

 

He can't because there isn't one, its pretty simple.

 

what I'm always surprised by is the weird arguments I've been reading.

The gamers say they want a controller, the non gamers say that they aren't needed, its simply stupid.

If a guitarist has a problem with the way a certain guitar is set up & non musician said, 'no that's no problem at all, every things fine', why the F would you listen to them?, the thing is you wouldn't, because they don't know what they are talking about, not even a little bit.

which is why the arguments that non gamers have about games, seriously aren't valid, humoring them by telling them no isn't helping, clearly.

post #106 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

NO. YOU HAVEN'T.

Yes I have, how the hell would you know if I have used a touch screen based console or not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

So which is it?

Can't it be both?

I own a touch screen based console (PS Vita)

I don't down any iOS devices
post #107 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zozman View Post

what I'm always surprised by is the weird arguments I've been reading.
The gamers say they want a controller, the non gamers say that they aren't needed, its simply stupid.
If a guitarist has a problem with the way a certain guitar is set up & non musician said, 'no that's no problem at all, every things fine', why the F would you listen to them?, the thing is you wouldn't, because they don't know what they are talking about, not even a little bit.
which is why the arguments that non gamers have about games, seriously aren't valid, humoring them by telling them no isn't helping, clearly.

Exactly, I am getting confused by the ergonomics of using a flat piece of glass as a controller, he is saying he can use all 10 fingers on this controller at the same time, which must make it damn hard to hold the device in his hands at the same time
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