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post #81 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Sorry I don't get your indignation. It would be no different if I were to comment on the horrible education scores of American youth or the US obesity problem. They are just observations and verifiable data points even though they may broad generalizations.

 

Bullshit.  I just posted 3-4 metal signs in China from a 2 second google.  Folks who believe and repeat racist bullshit without even the vaguest fact check deserve to be ridiculed.

post #82 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post

You are a China demonizer.  Do you forget Japan attacked Pearl harbor killing thousands of Americans?  China has never done so.  But many Americans always hate Chinese.  The US Congress has passed this notorious Chinese Exclusion Act in the nineteenth century.  Please defend this act yourself. 

 

We supported China against Japan.  We poorly supported CKS against Mao (that could have been better*) but supported Taiwan against the PRC.

 

The PRC has killed thousands of Americans in Korea.

 

The Chinese Exclusion Act was terrible.  So was slavery.  So was Japanese internment in WWII.  So was the slaughter of native americans.  Is there a defense for these?  Sure, we try hard not to repeat them.  Asking us to defend these is like asking Chinese to defend the Cultural Revolution.

 

However, unlike in China, we can actually talk and read about our past mistakes.  Please defend this problem yourself.  If you can discuss or study past mistakes it's much harder to avoid them in the future.

 

--

 

* It is an open question if the Nationalists had maintained power whether the current Chinese economic growth could have occurred a couple decades earlier or if the Nationalists only did so well in Taiwan because the problems were much smaller and they had US economic support.

 

Still the Great Leap and the Cultural Revolution were huge huge setbacks reminiscent of catastrophic Qing Dynasty "self strengthening" failures.  Not to mention the Hundred Flowers Campaign/Anti-Rightist Movement which killed a lot of educated "elites".  Mao was responsible for these and I'm hard pressed to imagine Chiang Kai-Shek deliberately engineering the Cultural Revolution to purge moderates because he royally screwed up economic planning.  On the other hand China might have fallen back into Warlordism and fragmented because of Nationalist corruption and lack of rural support.  Hard call.

 

Some Western researchers place the total Chinese deaths that could be laid on Mao's doorstep to be anywhere from 40-70 million...largely from the famines caused by the Great Leap Forward (36 million).  杨继绳 documents this number in his book Tombstone (墓碑: 一九五八-一九六二年中國大饑荒紀實).  I don't think anyone in Mainland China got to read that though.

 

A regression into Warlordism could generate the same number of dead (though you kinda have to get back into active warfare a la Three Kingdoms style) but if the Nationalist had managed to form a stable government then China would have been IMHO far better off.

post #83 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

 

We supported China against Japan.  We poorly supported CKS against Mao (that could have been better*) but supported Taiwan against the PRC.

 

The PRC has killed thousands of Americans in Korea.

 

The Chinese Exclusion Act was terrible.  So was slavery.  So was Japanese internment in WWII.  So was the slaughter of native americans.  Is there a defense for these?  Sure, we try hard not to repeat them.  Asking us to defend these is like asking Chinese to defend the Cultural Revolution.

 

However, unlike in China, we can actually talk and read about our past mistakes.  Please defend this problem yourself.  If you can discuss or study past mistakes it's much harder to avoid them in the future.

 

--

 

* It is an open question if the Nationalists had maintained power whether the current Chinese economic growth could have occurred a couple decades earlier or if the Nationalists only did so well in Taiwan because the problems were much smaller and they had US economic support.

 

Still the Great Leap and the Cultural Revolution were huge huge setbacks reminiscent of catastrophic Qing Dynasty "self strengthening" failures.  Not to mention the Hundred Flowers Campaign/Anti-Rightist Movement which killed a lot of educated "elites".  Mao was responsible for these and I'm hard pressed to imagine Chiang Kai-Shek deliberately engineering the Cultural Revolution to purge moderates because he royally screwed up economic planning.  On the other hand China might have fallen back into Warlordism and fragmented because of Nationalist corruption and lack of rural support.  Hard call.

 

Some Western researchers place the total Chinese deaths that could be laid on Mao's doorstep to be anywhere from 40-70 million...largely from the famines caused by the Great Leap Forward (36 million).  杨继绳 documents this number in his book Tombstone (墓碑: 一九五八-一九六二年中國大饑荒紀實).  I don't think anyone in Mainland China got to read that though.

 

A regression into Warlordism could generate the same number of dead (though you kinda have to get back into active warfare a la Three Kingdoms style) but if the Nationalist had managed to form a stable government then China would have been IMHO far better off.

Chiang Kai-Shek's single biggest mistake is to start slaughtering CCP members are sympathesizer in 1927.  This is totally against American standards.  This behavior is no different from Hitler. 

 

OTOH saying Mao is responsible for 40-70 million deaths is a plot of right wingers trying to demonize him. To understand the truths, you need to the state of China in the history.  Go read the book Good Earth by Pearl Buck.  The low level Chinese farmers have been poorly fed and in hungry for thousands of years.  Still after 1949 China population grew by over 100 million in just ten years.  This is good and bad.  The good thing is China is being able to take care of masses of people.  The bad thing is the tremendous increase in demand for foods.  The food supply is getting worse and worse every year.  Then in 1958 the great hungry started.  My theory is if the great hungry did not begin in 1958 the population will keep growing rapidly.  The great hungry will start just a little later. 

 

And this is the reason why China initiated the one child policy in late 70s. 

post #84 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post

 

OTOH saying Mao is responsible for 40-70 million deaths is a plot of right wingers trying to demonize him. 

 

Yang Jisheng (杨继绳) is a right winger?  Mao wasn't responsible for the Great Leap Forward?  He didn't get demoted for it?  He didn't get back at Zhou, Deng and Liu and other moderates who took over via the Cultural Revolution?  Liu died in detention camp, Deng ended up in reeducation, and Zhou caved and survived barely.  Never heard of the first Tiananmen where folks honored Zhou and criticized Mao and the Great Leap?  I guess for you Deng is right winger too.  Capitalist bastard.  Good thing he got purged again.

 

 

Quote:

To understand the truths, you need to the state of China in the history.  Go read the book Good Earth by Pearl Buck.  The low level Chinese farmers have been poorly fed and in hungry for thousands of years.  Still after 1949 China population grew by over 100 million in just ten years.  This is good and bad.  The good thing is China is being able to take care of masses of people.  The bad thing is the tremendous increase in demand for foods.  The food supply is getting worse and worse every year.  Then in 1958 the great hungry started.  My theory is if the great hungry did not begin in 1958 the population will keep growing rapidly.  The great hungry will start just a little later. 

 

And this is the reason why China initiated the one child policy in late 70s. 

 

I don't think you know Chinese history unless you live outside of the mainland.  If you live inside the mainland you don't need Buck to tell you what farm life was like unless you are young and live in a city.  In which case a train ride and a long bumpy road trip will solve that issue.  Hint:  an assload of farmers were still poorly fed throughout that whole period of 50's until now.

 

The reason that China grew 100M in ten years is because people weren't dying from war anymore.  Not because Mao figured out how to feed people more efficiently and in his Great Leap Forward he destroyed farm productivity. 

 

The growth rate in the 1950s is higher than but similar to the same slope as in the Qing Dynasty due to modern medicine.  Between 1749 and 1811 the population went from 177M to 360M and then to 431M in 1851.  After 1851 growth cratered because of the deaths in the Taiping Rebellion and China was in unrest, upheaval and war until 1949.  After 1949 the average birth rate of 6 per mother was still maintained by the Party where Mao saw population as resource to be tapped so the more the merrier.

 

Ooops.

post #85 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

 

Yang Jisheng (杨继绳) is a right winger?  Mao wasn't responsible for the Great Leap Forward?  He didn't get demoted for it?  He didn't get back at Zhou, Deng and Liu and other moderates who took over via the Cultural Revolution?  Liu died in detention camp, Deng ended up in reeducation, and Zhou caved and survived barely.  Never heard of the first Tiananmen where folks honored Zhou and criticized Mao and the Great Leap?  I guess for you Deng is right winger too.  Capitalist bastard.  Good thing he got purged again.

 

 

 

I don't think you know Chinese history unless you live outside of the mainland.  If you live inside the mainland you don't need Buck to tell you what farm life was like unless you are young and live in a city.  In which case a train ride and a long bumpy road trip will solve that issue.  Hint:  an assload of farmers were still poorly fed throughout that whole period of 50's until now.

 

The reason that China grew 100M in ten years is because people weren't dying from war anymore.  Not because Mao figured out how to feed people more efficiently and in his Great Leap Forward he destroyed farm productivity. 

 

The growth rate in the 1950s is higher than but similar to the same slope as in the Qing Dynasty due to modern medicine.  Between 1749 and 1811 the population went from 177M to 360M and then to 431M in 1851.  After 1851 growth cratered because of the deaths in the Taiping Rebellion and China was in unrest, upheaval and war until 1949.  After 1949 the average birth rate of 6 per mother was still maintained by the Party where Mao saw population as resource to be tapped so the more the merrier.

 

Ooops.

Do you know from 1912 to 1949 China population grew only 100 million.  This is almost four decades.  According to your own logic China population did not grow 400 million is because people were dying from wars?  300 million died of wars?  You are a liar!

 

Yang Jisheng may not be a right winger but he sure is a stupid reported that was exploited by the right wingers.

 

You are too stupid to believe Mao can control how many births a mother can have.  

 

I can give you another fact about China.  China does not have as much fertile land as US.  How much crop a land can produce is not unlimited.  Most of the crop land has long being used by the farmers.  So the total crop that can be harvested in the 50s has already being reached in China.  Qiang wrote a paper claiming the limit is huge.  He was laughed and blamed.  After 60s China started to use mass quantities of fertilizer to increase the harvest.  This is why China population can continue grow after 60s.  

 

In this respect, I blame the US led western embargo to China in that time that slowed the increase of food production.  

post #86 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post

Do you know from 1912 to 1949 China population grew only 100 million.  This is almost four decades.  According to your own logic China population did not grow 400 million is because people were dying from wars?  300 million died of wars?  You are a liar!

Yes. China was in constant unrest and war thru this period. Millions died and so they obviously did not have children. Millions more were displaced and had fewer children. It's hard to run with little kids and babies. Men were away fighting.

You are ignorant of the suffering of the Chinese people during this period. Ask your elders that are still alive. They will be in their 90s though. Most are gone now. Ask the ones alive during WWII how many kids they had in this period and when.
Quote:
Yang Jisheng may not be a right winger but he sure is a stupid reported that was exploited by the right wingers.
.

Data is data. If the research is sound then the numbers are accurate.
Quote:
You are too stupid to believe Mao can control how many births a mother can have.  

So there isn't a 1 child policy that worked?

You've never heard the Mao quote "every mouth comes with two hands attached"? You don't know that he banned the importation of contraceptives until 1955 because they were a capitalist plot to weaken China? That Mao's military strategy was based on human waves? That he called women with many children "graceful mothers"?

The party wanted babies. The propaganda message was more babies = stronger China. They sure as hell made sure they got more babies by banning birth control and sending a very clear message that to have children was patriotic.
Quote:
I can give you another fact about China.  China does not have as much fertile land as US.  How much crop a land can produce is not unlimited.  Most of the crop land has long being used by the farmers.  So the total crop that can be harvested in the 50s has already being reached in China.  Qiang wrote a paper claiming the limit is huge.  He was laughed and blamed.  After 60s China started to use mass quantities of fertilizer to increase the harvest.  This is why China population can continue grow after 60s.  

Food production was cratered by banning private farms and the Great Leap Forward. Less food was produced than thought during the first 5 year plan and they doubled down on ruinous policies.
Quote:
In this respect, I blame the US led western embargo to China in that time that slowed the increase of food production.  

Never heard of 打麻雀运动? The great sparrow campaign to kill 4 "pest" species which included sparrows? From 1958 to 1962? Where Party central planners had farmers decimate the sparrow population because they ate grain without understanding they they also ate bugs? Leading to a locust outbreak?

No, probably not. I'm sure that was a right wing plot to discredit Mao too.

Spin all you want. Mao did one great thing: unify China. For that he should be revered as that is the basis for China's success today. However, he screwed a lot of other things up often for his own political gain.

My fear is not that China becomes a superpower but that it collapses. There is a huge housing boom in china now and a lot of middle class wealth will disappear when it pops. Causing political instability. Political instability will lead to less foreign trade worsening the economic situation. Causing more unrest.

Many of the rich guys have their families and money stashed in the US and Canada. When it happens they are going to run. Everyone else is stuck there. Given the huge disparity between rich and poor there is a possibility that a hard line opportunistic general will start a popular revolution against the party claiming that it has lost it's way, seduced by capitalism. That would set China back by decades. Even worse, such a dictator would want to use external threats as an excuse to maintain power.

That would ruin everyone's day.

A stable, prosperous, China is best for everyone.
post #87 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post


Yes. China was in constant unrest and war thru this period. Millions died and so they obviously did not have children. Millions more were displaced and had fewer children. It's hard to run with little kids and babies. Men were away fighting.

You are ignorant of the suffering of the Chinese people during this period. Ask your elders that are still alive. They will be in their 90s though. Most are gone now. Ask the ones alive during WWII how many kids they had in this period and when.
.

Data is data. If the research is sound then the numbers are accurate.
So there isn't a 1 child policy that worked?

You've never heard the Mao quote "every mouth comes with two hands attached"? You don't know that he banned the importation of contraceptives until 1955 because they were a capitalist plot to weaken China? That Mao's military strategy was based on human waves? That he called women with many children "graceful mothers"?

The party wanted babies. The propaganda message was more babies = stronger China. They sure as hell made sure they got more babies by banning birth control and sending a very clear message that to have children was patriotic.
Food production was cratered by banning private farms and the Great Leap Forward. Less food was produced than thought during the first 5 year plan and they doubled down on ruinous policies.
Never heard of 打麻雀运动? The great sparrow campaign to kill 4 "pest" species which included sparrows? From 1958 to 1962? Where Party central planners had farmers decimate the sparrow population because they ate grain without understanding they they also ate bugs? Leading to a locust outbreak?

No, probably not. I'm sure that was a right wing plot to discredit Mao too.

Spin all you want. Mao did one great thing: unify China. For that he should be revered as that is the basis for China's success today. However, he screwed a lot of other things up often for his own political gain.

My fear is not that China becomes a superpower but that it collapses. There is a huge housing boom in china now and a lot of middle class wealth will disappear when it pops. Causing political instability. Political instability will lead to less foreign trade worsening the economic situation. Causing more unrest.

Many of the rich guys have their families and money stashed in the US and Canada. When it happens they are going to run. Everyone else is stuck there. Given the huge disparity between rich and poor there is a possibility that a hard line opportunistic general will start a popular revolution against the party claiming that it has lost it's way, seduced by capitalism. That would set China back by decades. Even worse, such a dictator would want to use external threats as an excuse to maintain power.

That would ruin everyone's day.

A stable, prosperous, China is best for everyone.

I think one of your problem is focusing on the results without thinking why the leaders did this and that.  Why do they initiated the Great Leap Forward? Why do they organized farmers to eliminate the four pests?  Why did in Henan the authority battered farmers to death when they are found hoarding crops?  That is China was so desperate in need of food.  The food supply is no better than North Korea is today.  You probably can not find a single fat person in the country.

 

My parents had three kids during the anti-Japanese war.  And this is without encouragement from JKS.  Banning importation of contraceptives?  Did you live at those times?  How do you think Chinese have money to buy contraceptives when the bicycles are still a scarce commodity.  If Chinese have money then they would not be so easily being used as cheap labor for the world in the last thirty years.

 

You must learn the Chinese history in the last two hundred years.  Ever since the Opium War China's economy has essentially collapsed.  You must also understand a lot of westerners are not really friendly to Chinese.  This is why US Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act.  There are a few westerners that tried to help China over the years.  But majority of them just don't care.  During the 64 movement CNN, CBS were broadcasting the unrest to the American people.  I heard no American showing concern this protest is going to hurt China.  In their heart they are wishing CCP will collapse.  They interviewed many anti-CCP Chinese to voce their venoms against CCP.  This kind of media is a kind of brain washing to American people.  

 

As a leader Mao did many things.  Every thing has consequences.  Some will be good as planned but some may be bad.  To propagandize the idea that Mao intentionally killed 40-70 million people is absurd.  The motive is simply trying to demonize.  

post #88 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post

I think one of your problem is focusing on the results without thinking why the leaders did this and that.  Why do they initiated the Great Leap Forward? Why do they organized farmers to eliminate the four pests?  Why did in Henan the authority battered farmers to death when they are found hoarding crops?  That is China was so desperate in need of food.  The food supply is no better than North Korea is today.  You probably can not find a single fat person in the country.

 

They initiated the Great Leap Forward to advance communist ideals and eliminate capitalism.  This was a bad idea.

 

Why were they in desperate need of food?  Because of population policy that pushed population growth and the prior 5 year plan not working well.

 

 

Quote:

My parents had three kids during the anti-Japanese war.  And this is without encouragement from JKS.

 

And the average post-1949 was 6 kids.  And those kids were less likely to die.  And that was with the encouragement from Mao.

 

You called me a liar and here you are with your own family history showing half the birthrate as the post-war period.  

 

Did all of your siblings survive?  if so your family was lucky.

 

 

Quote:

 Banning importation of contraceptives?  Did you live at those times?  How do you think Chinese have money to buy contraceptives when the bicycles are still a scarce commodity.  If Chinese have money then they would not be so easily being used as cheap labor for the world in the last thirty years.

 

It is documented that the Party (specifically Mao) banned contraceptives.  If no one was able to buy them anyway then there would have been no need to ban them.

 

You said I was stupid to say the Party could not influence birth rate.  The facts are they made specific moves to increase the birth rate because of Maoist policy and thinking.  Only to discover this was a bad idea.

 

 

Quote:

You must learn the Chinese history in the last two hundred years.  Ever since the Opium War China's economy has essentially collapsed.  You must also understand a lot of westerners are not really friendly to Chinese.  This is why US Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act.  There are a few westerners that tried to help China over the years.  But majority of them just don't care.  During the 64 movement CNN, CBS were broadcasting the unrest to the American people.  I heard no American showing concern this protest is going to hurt China.  In their heart they are wishing CCP will collapse.  They interviewed many anti-CCP Chinese to voce their venoms against CCP.  This kind of media is a kind of brain washing to American people.  

 

If we had not helped China you'd be speaking Japanese.  You talk about the Chinese Exclusion Act but forget all the aid provided by the allies during the war.  You forget all the aid provided to Taiwan.

 

Chinese problems in the last two hundred years is not due to the West but in my opinion Confucianism and Chinese conservatism.  Japan modernized, the Qing did not.  You can blame this on the Manchus if you like but many officials were Han as well.  The west opportunistically took advantage of Chinese weakness, not caused it.

 

 

Quote:
As a leader Mao did many things.  Every thing has consequences.  Some will be good as planned but some may be bad.  To propagandize the idea that Mao intentionally killed 40-70 million people is absurd.  The motive is simply trying to demonize.  

 

He was responsible for the deaths of 40-70M.  They were not all intentional but they were the result of his policy.  As to motives you came here making claims and I debunked them.  Nothing more.  You on the other hand have consistently gotten mad and insulted me which is both amusing and against board policy. 

post #89 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

 

They initiated the Great Leap Forward to advance communist ideals and eliminate capitalism.  This was a bad idea.

 

Why were they in desperate need of food?  Because of population policy that pushed population growth and the prior 5 year plan not working well.

 

 

 

And the average post-1949 was 6 kids.  And those kids were less likely to die.  And that was with the encouragement from Mao.

 

You called me a liar and here you are with your own family history showing half the birthrate as the post-war period.  

 

Did all of your siblings survive?  if so your family was lucky.

 

 

 

It is documented that the Party (specifically Mao) banned contraceptives.  If no one was able to buy them anyway then there would have been no need to ban them.

 

You said I was stupid to say the Party could not influence birth rate.  The facts are they made specific moves to increase the birth rate because of Maoist policy and thinking.  Only to discover this was a bad idea.

 

 

 

If we had not helped China you'd be speaking Japanese.  You talk about the Chinese Exclusion Act but forget all the aid provided by the allies during the war.  You forget all the aid provided to Taiwan.

 

Chinese problems in the last two hundred years is not due to the West but in my opinion Confucianism and Chinese conservatism.  Japan modernized, the Qing did not.  You can blame this on the Manchus if you like but many officials were Han as well.  The west opportunistically took advantage of Chinese weakness, not caused it.

 

 

 

He was responsible for the deaths of 40-70M.  They were not all intentional but they were the result of his policy.  As to motives you came here making claims and I debunked them.  Nothing more.  You on the other hand have consistently gotten mad and insulted me which is both amusing and against board policy. 

Mao is the leader.  Of course he has the responsibility.  But my whole point talking to you is what he has done that caused the Great Famine.  There are multiple reasons we discussed.  But they have order of importance.  The most important reason is over population and inadequate food production.  And the over population is caused by a peaceful China.  And there is one analysis I want to share with you.  That is the socialism.  CCP tried to take care of the poor people like the Democrats.  Since the poor people have been better taken cared of by the government the young couples felt little pressure to engage in reproduction. If KMT had stayed in mainland, their will not be able to support the masses of people.  Their ideals are like the Republicans.  They think every people is responsible for himself/herself.  Therefore a lot of people will find difficult to find the means to have a large family.  So over population in China alerted the leaders to desperately seeking ways to increase food production.  And the solution they found is Great Leap Forward according to communist ideals.  But they are fighting against natural laws.  A small imbalance in some locals propagated and caused many parts in China to plunge in Great Famine. 

 

The Great Famine actually helped China to return to normal.  In that three years birth rates plunged.  The population stagnated.  Some stupid statisticians calculated the number of less births and get a number somewhere between 40-70 million.  Then they say this is the deaths that Mao caused. 

 

After the Great Famine, China completed more dams and fertilizer plants.  The food production catches up with population growth.  Therefore no further famine happened although the population still grows.  You should take a look of the birth rates over the years.  You will see that the birth rates remained high until the one china policy is implemented in late 70s.  This debunked your logic that Mao's encouragement caused the people to have more children.

 

One final point, I did not lie.  My parents continued to have children after the anti-Japanese war.  They have a total of seven children.  One died at birth.  So this agrees with your statistics. I said they have three children during the war to debunk your logic that war slow that population growth. 

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