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Google blames supposedly buried iTunes links on technical difficulties, fix on the way - Page 2

post #41 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskatt2 View Post

Google is being evil as usual.

The European Union should investigate Google on this latest attempt to shore up its Monopoly.

What monopoly?
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post #42 of 75
Not surprising Bing isn't affected, they don't crawl anywhere near as often as Google so wouldn't be affected by sporadic 404's since they wouldn't pick them up.
post #43 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by macaholic_1948 View Post

I guess that is why Bing has the same pro... Oh, wait. Bing does not have the same problem.

So what page did it show up on Bing?
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post #44 of 75
Don't trust them as far as I can throw them. This is just tit for tat from the Google Now that is in Apples hands, or not.
post #45 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrodriguez View Post

Why do you guys bother coming up with these elaborate conspiracy theories when Google encounters a bug in their system?

We've seen that Apple keeps web pages in their servers but merely deactivates their visibility. When they were first working on the password bug they hid the page but people were still able to access it if they knew the direct link address. Only after Apple noticed this they decided to shut down the server.

Everyone in here loves to hang Google for anything it does wrong but when someone calls out an Apple flaw, they're trolls, fandroids, etc.

Cracks me up.  Site is Apple insider.  And let's see, maps, mobile me, bumpers, Apple makes many mistakes and owns up to them.  Google just get's caught, and it's never their fault.  For me, it's a respect issue.  I respect companies that behave well, and well, don't respect the ones that don't.

post #46 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

4. It doesn't happen to anyone else - just Apple.

What proof do you have of that? Maybe it only gets reported when it happens to Apple.
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post #47 of 75
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Originally Posted by Rob Bonner View Post

Cracks me up.  Site is Apple insider.  And let's see, maps, mobile me, bumpers, Apple makes many mistakes and owns up to them.  Google just get's caught, and it's never their fault.  For me, it's a respect issue.  I respect companies that behave well, and well, don't respect the ones that don't.

What exactly did they get caught doing? Again on what page did the iTunes link come up on competing search engines?
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #48 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakefinance View Post

Are you suggesting that Google wants popular results to be several pages deep?  Does that not contradict the entire basis for their success in the web search industry?  They got to the top by giving relevant results.  Users would stop using Google if it didn't provide them with the best results first, so it's entirely within their future interest to keep users happy, even if it comes at the expense of showing fewer ads immediately.

Again, naive users would think they are getting the best results. Many of them don't know of any other search engine. "Google" has become a verb like Xerox. No one Bings it. Everyone Googles it.
post #49 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Bonner View Post

Cracks me up.  Site is Apple insider.  And let's see, maps, mobile me, bumpers, Apple makes many mistakes and owns up to them.  Google just get's caught, and it's never their fault.  For me, it's a respect issue.  I respect companies that behave well, and well, don't respect the ones that don't.

They never said it wasn't their fault, they explained the source of the problem. They can't say they messed up when they really didn't. Their system performs a certain function based on specific parameters. The fact that Apple builds their website a certain way that conflicts with those parameters shouldn't be Google problem.
post #50 of 75

LOL at people using the word "conspiracy". That's just as bad as the tactics conspiracy freaks (and I'm being nice) use. It's either A or B, and if you don't support A then you must be siding with B. Why does Google playing around with their search results have to become a full-blown conspiracy. It's not black and white.

 

Did everyone forget the numerous investigations going on against Google around the world for this exact thing (Google modifying results)? Or Google modifying code to specifically side step Safari (something Google said was an "accident" but was quickly proven to be intentional)? They ended up paying a $22 million fine for that.

 

And peoe still defend this company. Or outright deny they do anything to modify results to further benefit them?

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post #51 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrodriguez View Post


They never said it wasn't their fault, they explained the source of the problem. They can't say they messed up when they really didn't. Their system performs a certain function based on specific parameters. The fact that Apple builds their website a certain way that conflicts with those parameters shouldn't be Google problem.

 

Well, first of all, your final sentence points is a bit ridiculous. That how people build their web sites affects their search rankings would seem to be a huge flaw in Google's, or anyone's, search algorithms. Basically, what you are saying is that, the fact that Google's algorithms can be gamed shouldn't be Google's problem. In fact, it's a huge problem for them, and points to a fundamental flaw in their methodology.

 

Secondly, no one believes that this was "inadvertent", simply because it's something Google does all the time, and because they are a company without ethics. In short, they've cried "inadvertent" too many times. They are either the sloppiest technology company in the world, which seems improbable, or liars.

post #52 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

Did everyone forget the numerous investigations going on against Google around the world for this exact thing (Google modifying results)

And peoe still defend this company. Or outright deny they do anything to modify results to further benefit them?

There's been and are numerous investigations of Apple's book sales too. Does that equate to guilt? Unless an investigation is now evidence of wrongdoing you must have some solid proof that Google manipulates search results to benefit themselves. Mind sharing it? They may or may not but I've not seen the proof that you have.

As far as sponsored results go, Google differentiates those as clearly as any of the other search engines, and much better than Bing does. Do a search for Sony TV parts on both Google and Bing and tell me which does a better job of letting you know which results are paid placement.
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post #53 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

LOL at people using the word "conspiracy". That's just as bad as the tactics conspiracy freaks (and I'm being nice) use. It's either A or B, and if you don't support A then you must be siding with B. Why does Google playing around with their search results have to become a full-blown conspiracy. It's not black and white.

Did everyone forget the numerous investigations going on against Google around the world for this exact thing (Google modifying results)? Or Google modifying code to specifically side step Safari (something Google said was an "accident" but was quickly proven to be intentional)? They ended up paying a $22 million fine for that.

And peoe still defend this company. Or outright deny they do anything to modify results to further benefit them?

Exactly. Google's entire history is full of shady activities and endless "innocent errors" that always just happen to work in Google's favor and against their competition. You'd think that even the shills would eventually get tired of defending that behavior.
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post #54 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

That isn't to say that there isn't some finagling going on make Google's result look more attractive — they certainly have done some very dubious things over the years — but to all of a sudden push Apple's results back a half dozen pages makes absolutely no sense for a business standpoint. It could be an asshole engineer that maliciously made a change on his own behalf and Google is covering up that fact to save some face in how easily results can be manipulated (just a scenario; I have no idea how easy it is to do that) but it's certainly not Google the company sitting around looking for ways to not include Apple in their search results.

I took some time to review the source code of many of the pages that appeared above the Apple app page link in the search results. Every page that I looked at was very well crafted from an SEO perspective. Although Apple's page was also well crafted they could use a better url naming scheme much like the url of this page is much more descriptive than just "app/Facebook/id12345". 

 

As far as the Google placement, I'm sure their algorithm makes every effort to find relevant Google content first and put that at the top. I don't know if there is any legal accountability that Google must adhere to but other than avoiding bad press and public opinion, to me it looks like Google just bumped its own offering to the top and Apple's link was in fair competition with the other pages returned by the simplistic query.

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post #55 of 75

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Edited by MacRulez - 7/23/13 at 2:27pm
post #56 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

That how people build their web sites affects their search rankings would seem to be a huge flaw in Google's, or anyone's, search algorithms.

Really?  Do you have any idea how SEO works?  How people build websites has a MASSIVE effect on their rankings, and Google provide guidelines on best practice.  Would you rather have badly built and irrelevant websites appear at the top of searches, or well-built and properly structured sites with relevant content?

 

I'm not saying that this is the issue here (in fact, nobody on here actually knows what the issue is so all this discussion is normal internet baloney), but your statement is just plain wrong.

post #57 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefoid View Post

Really?  Do you have any idea how SEO works?  How people build websites has a MASSIVE effect on their rankings, and Google provide guidelines on best practice.  Would you rather have badly built and irrelevant websites appear at the top of searches, or well-built and properly structured sites with relevant content?

 

Duh! What you are (rightly) saying has a "MASSIVE effect" is exactly the problem, and it's exactly what allows people to game the system -- i.e., use SEO techniques -- to push their sites higher in the rankings than they ought to be.

 

I'd rather have relevant results, and not a bunch of SEO propped sites appear at the top of the search results. I'd rather not have the search company, Google in this case, be manually tweaking results at all. And it is exactly these flaws in their systems that require them to do so, and allow abuse at times.

post #58 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


There's been and are numerous investigations of Apple's book sales too. Does that equate to guilt? Unless an investigation is now evidence of wrongdoing you must have some solid proof that Google manipulates search results to benefit themselves. Mind sharing it? They may or may not but I've not seen the proof that you have.

As far as sponsored results go, Google differentiates those as clearly as any of the other search engines, and much better than Bing does. Do a search for Sony TV parts on both Google and Bing and tell me which does a better job of letting you know which results are paid placement.

 

Utterly disingenuous and irrelevant response, as usual. Total red herring to distract from the real issue. Nice try.

post #59 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Duh! What you are (rightly) saying has a "MASSIVE effect" is exactly the problem, and it's exactly what allows people to game the system -- i.e., use SEO techniques -- to push their sites higher in the rankings than they ought to be.

 

I'd rather have relevant results, and not a bunch of SEO propped sites appear at the top of the search results. I'd rather not have the search company, Google in this case, be manually tweaking results at all. And it is exactly these flaws in their systems that require them to do so, and allow abuse at times.

Sorry that is simply not the case. The reason search engines require properly structured code is because people were trying to game the system. Your site can easily get black listed if you try to spam the keywords such as listing your competitor's product name in your meta information. It is fairly simple to comply with the rules and if you don't, your rank gets dumped. SEO marketers are very aware of the pitfalls of deceptive coding practices. If you get black listed it can take years to regain your natural organic rank.

 

By your logic a site coded entirely in Flash or Javascript with no crawl-able data exposed to the search engine should be ranked according to the information that a human reader may be able to ascertain form viewing the site, which makes no sense at all. That is why everything needs to match on a web page. The title needs to match the url and the keywords need to match the words found in the body text and the description needs to match the content such as the <h1> tags. Only if all of that is accurate do the page back links have an effect.

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post #60 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

As far as the Google placement, I'm sure their algorithm makes every effort to find relevant Google content first and put that at the top. I don't know if there is any legal accountability that Google must adhere to but other than avoiding bad press and public opinion, to me it looks like Google just bumped its own offering to the top and Apple's link was in fair competition with the other pages returned by the simplistic query.

I don't think anyone reasonable will say it's not possible that Google plays favourites with itself but that's a far cry from maliciously taking anything from Apple and sticking it a half dozen or more pages back. There is simply no benefit for them to do that. Case in point, all we've seen is bad press for Google on this and no word of people dropping their iPads for a Nexus 7 simply because Angry Birds showed up for Android and not for iOS. Don't you think Google is smarter than that? I do. If I wanted to finagle the results I'd Google's hits at the top and put Apple's hits a little farther down on the page, but still on the same page. Still, even that doesn't make sense as people aren't going to drop their iDevice for an Android device based on 3 hours of improper search data. They are much more likely to try a different search engine before that happens. And why are we ignoring the info about Google's own DNS not being able to find Apple yesterday during that time? Everything points to a hiccup with the system, not a devious plan by an evil corporation.

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post #61 of 75
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Originally Posted by mstone View Post

SEO marketers are very aware of the pitfalls of deceptive coding practices. If you get black listed it can take years to regain your natural organic rank.

An SEO Expert walks into a bar, bar and grill, bar & grill, grill and bar, grill & bar, bar + grill, grill + bar, pub, tavern, cocktail lounge, barroom, taproom, after-hours club, lounge, nightclub, beer hall,  club, cantina, bodega, sports bar, watering hole, dive, nineteenth hole, public house, saloon, alehouse, tavern, tavern bar, singles bar, singles, meet singles, single ladies, brothel, sex.

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post #62 of 75
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

 If I wanted to finagle the results I'd Google's hits at the top and put Apple's hits a little farther down on the page, but still on the same page. 

No that would not be good because that would be artificially moving Apple up in rank. If Google wanted to be entirely fair then they should make sure they don't give themselves preferential ranking unless they pay for a sponsored link which often times they do. If any correction needs to be made it is for the Google link to be ranked according to the same rules that everyone else is abiding by. Personally I think the Apple page was appropriately ranked but I'm suspicious of the Google link's rank.

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post #63 of 75
If not intentional change on googles behalf ... then why did nt this problem exist before.
post #64 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

SEO marketers are very aware of the pitfalls of deceptive coding practices. If you get black listed it can take years to regain your natural organic rank.

An SEO Expert walks into a bar, bar and grill, bar & grill, grill and bar, grill & bar, bar + grill, grill + bar, pub, tavern, cocktail lounge, barroom, taproom, after-hours club, lounge, nightclub, beer hall,  club, cantina, bodega, sports bar, watering hole, dive, nineteenth hole, public house, saloon, alehouse, tavern, tavern bar, singles bar, singles, meet singles, single ladies, brothel, sex.

Funny but these kinds of keywords tend to reduce your rank rather than improve it unless you can support those keywords in the <h> tags or the body text.

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post #65 of 75
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Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

I hate to say this but perhaps it is time Apple considered purchasing a search engine.

And who is to say Apple won't do the same thing that people are accusing Google of doing?  If Apple fans are ok with Apple doing it, then this whole issue is not really about search accuracy or wrongdoing by Google, but about personal preference by Apple supporters all along.


Edited by Haggar - 4/3/13 at 10:15am
post #66 of 75

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Edited by MacRulez - 7/23/13 at 2:26pm
post #67 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

No that would not be good because that would be artificially moving Apple up in rank. If Google wanted to be entirely fair then they should make sure they don't give themselves preferential ranking unless they pay for a sponsored link which often times they do. If any correction needs to be made it is for the Google link to be ranked according to the same rules that everyone else is abiding by. Personally I think the Apple page was appropriately ranked but I'm suspicious of the Google link's rank.

Google is constantly tweaking their search algorithms to avoid being "gamed". Have a look at SEObytheSEA for really good commentary on how Google has adjusted it's rankings to keep results as relevant as possible.
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post #68 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

And who is to say Apple won't do the same thing that people are accusing Google of doing?  If Apple fans are ok with Apple doing it, then this whole issue is not really about search accuracy or wrongdoing by Google, but about personal preference by Apple supporters all along.

Apple has 35+ years of history. When have they made a practice of doing that?
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post #69 of 75

Heck, what company has ever made a practice of promoting its competition to the forefront?

 

Most companies usually try not to even mention anyone else :)   

 

Some go further and forbid others to do the same.

 

A developer cannot mention their Android version in their Apple App Store entry, for example.

post #70 of 75
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Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Apple has 35+ years of history. When have they made a practice of doing that?

and that is the difference.
post #71 of 75
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Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

Heck, what company has ever made a practice of promoting its competition to the forefront?

Most companies usually try not to even mention anyone else 1smile.gif   

Some go further and forbid others to do the same.

A developer cannot mention their Android version in their Apple App Store entry, for example.

That's why they should not be trusted. Their own self-interest trumps search results.
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post #72 of 75
@demonicpaul : happy to learn you trust Bing, from notorious Microsoft reliability-fame.

@macbook pro: if it is an algorithm that was based on server results, as explained by Danny Sullivan, an _independent_ person, it makes sense that what you noticed is compatible with what they noticed. Concluding that Google is evil because their algorithms behave as they were programmed to is logically unsound...

My guess is, as @solipsismx noted, that Google has no interest in playing foul here, and some human did not plan on Apple's server setup when writing his algorithm.

Not the human's fault for not taking every possibility in the world into account, not Google's fault for making a non-perfect system, not Apple's fault for making a certain design decision with their servers, possibly fully aware of the SEO consequences. It's the "fault" of growing complexity in an IT world that caters to billions of users.

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post #73 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Anti-google rhetoric.
 


By the way, I thought you used to be a pro-Google guy who burnt Apple down. What happened, they stopped paying?

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post #74 of 75
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Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

Remember when iOS was having issues with Microsoft Exchange servers?

 

Many of the regulars wrote with great certainty that it was purely a bug with Exchange.

 

When Apple rolled out the iOS update that fixed the issue, how many here were willing to admit they were wrong?
 


And how does that prove:

1- anything related to the article

2- that the regulars here were wrong in the first place?

 

If I was Apple and an Exchange bug was plaguing my users, but I knew how to write a "fix" on my side to avoid that bug, I would. It would make me amazing, not prove I was wrong in the first place...

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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post #75 of 75

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Edited by MacRulez - 7/23/13 at 2:32pm
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