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Former Apple consultant: Apple's iPhone naming conventions send 'weak message' - Page 5

post #161 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


I am. And provided examples thereof. Why didn't you read my posts?

 

iPhone. iPhone 3G. 


HUH.

 

"Where's the iPhone 2?! What happened to the iPhone 2?!" Said no one. Ever. It was called "iPhone 2" until the real name was revealed. Then everyone instantly got over it. Go look at news articles from the month before and the month after the 3G's launch.

 

To say that's a poor example would be an understatement. Nobody cared that it went from iPhone to iPhone 3G, because at the time there was no established pattern or naming convention to compare it too. Secondly, the '3' was actually describing the of '3G' feature of the phone and had nothing to do with versions of the iphone. It's like calling it the iPhone LTE, or the iPhone NFC, or the iPhone Microwavablehotpizzapocket. Once you start creating a pattern like they did with the 3GS, 4, then 4S it stands to reason that when you break the pattern it will confuse people more.

 

At the end of the day i'm doubtful that the name of the iphone would ever have any material impact on sales, regardless.

post #162 of 199

Can't believe this non-story has 162 comments. Wonder how much of that is the Tallest Ski iPhone 5 naming fetish he couldn't help but turn this thread into again. 

post #163 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

Out of left field, the next iPhone will be called the iPhone XP. Who the hell cares.


And then the iPhone Vista. I see what you're doing. ;-)

post #164 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkling View Post

How silly! It's about what I'd expect from a 'brand consultant' focused on image and illusions. It's shallow, ill-informed people talking about the views of equally shallow, ill-informed people.

Well, he is a brand consultant who was very highly paid by Apple.  A consultant who was taken seriously by Jobs and the rest of the Apple team.  Plus he is a lot more than a brand consultant, also having been a top level creative at Chiat Day.  I know most of you have no idea how ad agencies work or what the relationship is like between the agency people and their clients, but they are not ill informed.  They generally know everything there is to know about the product, the company, the people who work at the company and the targeted customers.  Chiat Day has been one of the top agencies for many, many years.  They tend to employ the most talented people in advertising.  Not surprising they have the Apple account.  Ken might be a little off on this point, but he generally knows of what he speaks.

post #165 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Can't believe this non-story has 162 comments. Wonder how much of that is the Tallest Ski iPhone 5 naming fetish he couldn't help but turn this thread into again. 

I think about 15 of the comments are about how this non-story has so many comments.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #166 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

The only weak message is calling your 6th device "5". That's just pre-kindergarten levels of stupidity.

I'm perfectly fine with the "S" monicker otherwise. 

And if he weren't a complete idiot, he'd realize that the "S" models are no more "identical to last year's but better" than any other product from any other company.

This is a forum troll being paid to troll and disguising it as a job. "It looks the same; it must be the same phone" is crap we delete these days.

TS, man... you have some anger management issues...

Average buyer doesn't read this forum. Or any other. He goes out shopping and for him, when he compares iP4 and iP4s, there really isn't much difference on a first glance. And first glance is often the only glance. They look the same and they have same name, period. A lot of people will not even catch that little "s". Some might think of it as something unrelated to performance, like network related difference.

It is not about educating people with healthy interest in technology. For most if not all people around here, Apple could call them all just "the new iPhone" and we would still know. But for people who care more about new 2013 Dodge Ram or Ford F-250 than about new smartphone, you should emphasize as much as possible that they are looking at brand new product.

Same about iPads, IMHO.
post #167 of 199
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post
But did they sell the 2nd and 3rd or 3rd and 4th generation iPod Touches alongside each other, or did they discontinue them the day the others went on sale?

 

That's what I'm saying; they did that. I can't remember the 2nd gen, but I know they did 3 and 4 simultaneously, and now 4 and 5. 

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post #168 of 199
Well what is would they call it improved because that would be bad calling it that, making people believe it is just a different body.
post #169 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

Well, he is a brand consultant who was very highly paid by Apple.  A consultant who was taken seriously by Jobs and the rest of the Apple team.  Plus he is a lot more than a brand consultant, also having been a top level creative at Chiat Day.  I know most of you have no idea how ad agencies work or what the relationship is like between the agency people and their clients, but they are not ill informed.  They generally know everything there is to know about the product, the company, the people who work at the company and the targeted customers.  Chiat Day has been one of the top agencies for many, many years.  They tend to employ the most talented people in advertising.  Not surprising they have the Apple account.  Ken might be a little off on this point, but he generally knows of what he speaks.

Suggesting that an ad agencies "know everything there is to know about the product, the company, the people who work at the company and the targeted customers" is a ridiculous statement. Perhaps ad agencies understand the products and target market much better than expected but certainly far from everything. I have worked with some of the top marketing personnel in my chosen industry and our own marketing team barely understood our product in any clinical or technical depth. In fact, in the entire industry there are probably a handful of people who understand our product at a clinical and technical level sufficiently to... write an entire set of marketing and engineering requirements from scratch.
post #170 of 199
A couple things come to mind while reading the posts by TS.

1) Apple already has "internal model numbers". Remember the 4 or 5 digit designations we always hear about when the rumors start? I would think those are what are used for "support purposes".

2) Prey tell, what should we call the 8GB iPhone "4" that was designed and produced at the same time as the "4s"? Which generation is that? If memory serves, it had the redesigned antenna, not just a storage decrease.

3) This is a bizarre preoccupation with something that bears little meaning in the real world. It's like arguing over the correct letter designations on any given incarnation of the starship Enterprise. It's all an illusion! There are multiple levels of indirection between a marketing name and the actual product, and rightly so. The number meant different things at different times - cry me a river!

iPhone 5 64GB, iPhone 4S 16GB, mid-2011 iMac, Apple TV 2nd Gen, iPod Nano

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iPhone 5 64GB, iPhone 4S 16GB, mid-2011 iMac, Apple TV 2nd Gen, iPod Nano

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post #171 of 199
Originally Posted by LarryA View Post
1) Apple already has "internal model numbers". Remember the 4 or 5 digit designations we always hear about when the rumors start? I would think those are what are used for "support purposes".

 

To what are you referring? Every model of device they make has multiple reference names, both official and unofficial.


2) Prey tell, what should we call the 8GB iPhone "4" that was designed and produced at the same time as the "4s"? Which generation is that? If memory serves, it had the redesigned antenna, not just a storage decrease.

 

iPhone 4. Because it's the iPhone 4. What about it wasn't the iPhone 4?


3) This is a bizarre preoccupation with something that bears little meaning in the real world. It's like arguing over the correct letter designations on any given incarnation of the starship Enterprise.

 

"There are five lights." Lying in marketing is an illusion?


There are multiple levels of indirection between a marketing name and the actual product, and rightly so.

 

Why "rightly"?


The number meant different things at different times…


All the more reason to drop them entirely.

 

"Introducing the iPhone 5F. The F is for fingerprint." I can see no problem with arbitrary naming conventions¡

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post #172 of 199
First there will be the iPhone 5r for "rumors" and then the iPhone 5a for "anal-ysts" and finally the iPhone 5smb for "suck my .... "
post #173 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


But did they sell the 2nd and 3rd or 3rd and 4th generation iPod Touches alongside each other, or did they discontinue them the day the others went on sale? I seem to recall it was the latter.

Pretty sure you're right - they were sold at the same time until the stock of the older version ran out.

post #174 of 199
I can see where this guy's coming from, but I think he's wrong.

In my opinion, where it mattered to me, the upgrade to the 3GS was a bigger jump than to the 3G, and the same applied to the 4S : which is why I paid cash (i.e. no contract) for the top of the line 4S model on release and expect to do the same for the 5S.

Mind you these devices are becoming so powerful (with a longer useable lifespan) that I would have a hard time justifying upgrading from the 4 or the 4S if I wasn't a developer.
post #175 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by aderutter View Post

I can see where this guy's coming from, but I think he's wrong.

In my opinion, where it mattered to me, the upgrade to the 3GS was a bigger jump than to the 3G, and the same applied to the 4S : which is why I paid cash (i.e. no contract) for the top of the line 4S model on release and expect to do the same for the 5S.

Mind you these devices are becoming so powerful (with a longer useable lifespan) that I would have a hard time justifying upgrading from the 4 or the 4S if I wasn't a developer.

Good post.

And don't forget... not every iPhone that is sold goes home to an existing iPhone owner who is upgrading.

Apple sold an average of 500,000 iPhones every day last quarter. I suspect a hefty amount of them were sold to new iPhone owners.
post #176 of 199

Oh, yes. iPhone + One Number + One familiar letter that indicates an upgrade to the number.

 

So 'weak.'

 

Vs:

 

Samsung Captivate Vibrant 2 G2 3D
Motorola Liquid Neo S II G2
HTC Atrix Slide X V Z
LG Hero Neo Prime
HTC Motivate Incredible 2 Pro
Samsung Magic Neo Pro V 4G
 
Uh... What?
 
'iPhone 5S'
People want simple.
 
(Yes those are made up Android phone names, but who would know the difference?)
post #177 of 199
apple is respecting people, they dont need marketing gimmicks.. the s moniker is saying that it is not a new model design, but rather a speed bump, much like porsche and other car makers do. simplicity (and honesty) rules, point apple

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apple user since 1983..

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Newton MP2000, iPod 10Gb / Touch 4g, iPhone / 3G

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post #178 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Sure they did, just as people refer to various versions as iPhone 4G. It's either shorthand or just not knowing the proper nomenclature. You also hear people refer to the iPod Touch as an iTouch and refer to non-Apple products as iPods, iPhones and iPads.

Never heard anyone refer to an iPhone 4G either, maybe I'm not hanging around enough illiterate people.  iTouch I've heard, but I'd say that's just a shortening of the product name, and certainly not a confusion of the versioning, so it's besides the point.  4G if it is used is quite possibly a reference to LTE by someone in the know, so possibly also besides the point.

 

This is an almost completely manufactured issue, that if it does exist at all is a rare in the extreme, and in those rare instances at most creates a slight air of confusion about Apple's products that pales in comparison to the confusion around other manufacturers (i.e. AppleZilla's post above).

 

Pedantic nerds, nerdy pedants, and out-of-work brand consultants are the only ones who care.

 

Move. On.

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post #179 of 199
The S is honest, and there's no choice but to be honest because the S model has the same form factor as the previous year. The S product doesn't LOOK new.

Remember most people have two-year contracts. Knowing the next year's model is not "all that" compared to what you have is comforting. If you buy an S, you wait for the next S. The people who want the latest bling buy the integer release, while the people who like the product to "mature" or whatever get on the S cycle.
post #180 of 199
Completely agree with this guy. Who wants to buy a 3 year old phone? iphone 4 anyone? Is the MBP called MBP 6S?

Change model lineup to:

IPHONE: cheapest body, smallest screen, slowest but still an iPhone ( this is the cheap iphone the global phone to sell in india, etc.)

IPHONE S nicest body, great screen, fastest, best camera

IPHONE XL: big honking screen for big handed people, similar feature set, specs of iPhone S
post #181 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

Never heard anyone refer to an iPhone 4G either, maybe I'm not hanging around enough illiterate people.  iTouch I've heard, but I'd say that's just a shortening of the product name, and certainly not a confusion of the versioning, so it's besides the point.  4G if it is used is quite possibly a reference to LTE by someone in the know, so possibly also besides the point.

This is an almost completely manufactured issue, that if it does exist at all is a rare in the extreme, and in those rare instances at most creates a slight air of confusion about Apple's products that pales in comparison to the confusion around other manufacturers (i.e. AppleZilla's post above).

Pedantic nerds, nerdy pedants, and out-of-work brand consultants are the only ones who care.

Move. On.

1) Clearly Apple cares since they have decided to use various additives to their branding with each revision. It's quite foolish to say that Apple's marketing are just "pedantic nerds, nerdy pedants, and out-of-work brand consultants." Seriously?!

2) Just this morning at Starbucks I heard someone refer to their iPhone as their Apple. If you've never heard someone use a incorrect product or brand name it's likely you're not paying attention. Even Blackberry users often refer to the company as Blackberry — which it is now for obvious reasons — but many wouldn't know whom you refer if you had sad Research in Motion.
Edited by SolipsismX - 4/8/13 at 9:02am

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #182 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuji apple View Post

Completely agree with this guy. Who wants to buy a 3 year old phone? iphone 4 anyone? Is the MBP called MBP 6S?

Change model lineup to:

IPHONE: cheapest body, smallest screen, slowest but still an iPhone ( this is the cheap iphone the global phone to sell in india, etc.)

IPHONE S nicest body, great screen, fastest, best camera

IPHONE XL: big honking screen for big handed people, similar feature set, specs of iPhone S

This doesn't work because a phone you buy one day could be named something else the next. Fluctuating branding of a specific product is rarely a good idea.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #183 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuji apple View Post

Completely agree with this guy. Who wants to buy a 3 year old phone? iphone 4 anyone? Is the MBP called MBP 6S?

Change model lineup to:

IPHONE: cheapest body, smallest screen, slowest but still an iPhone ( this is the cheap iphone the global phone to sell in india, etc.)

IPHONE S nicest body, great screen, fastest, best camera

IPHONE XL: big honking screen for big handed people, similar feature set, specs of iPhone S

Who? Apparently a lot more than those who want the SG3.
post #184 of 199
This guy makes a good point, but there is also a danger of diluting enthusiasm with too many numbered releases. A new iPhone number currently generates excitement because people know it means a phone that is entirely new. Start calling the "S" models new numbers, and people will start yawning when they hear about an iPhone 27.
post #185 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) Clearly Apple cares since they have decided to use various additives to their branding with each revision. It's quite foolish to say that Apple's marketing are just "pedantic nerds, nerdy pedants, and out-of-work brand consultants." Seriously?!
I really don't think Apple give a hoot about people getting confused about the generation of their old phones. They care about them getting confused about their new phones, which is why they've settled for a simple N, NS, N+1, N+1S system. It makes sense now, it just doesn't make sense if you check the history. Apple doesn't care about the history, only the aforementioned do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

2) Just this morning at Starbucks I heard someone refer to their iPhone as their Apple. If you've never heard someone use a incorrect product or brand name it's likely you're not paying attention. Even Blackberry users often refer to the company as Blackberry — which it is now for obvious reasons — but many wouldn't know whom you refer if you had sad Research in Motion.
As long as you're buying an Apple I doubt Mac care what you think the company is called. And what exactly would they do about it anyway, mount a "We are Apple" ad campaign? Pointless.

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post #186 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

I really don't think Apple give a hoot about people getting confused about the generation of their old phones. They care about them getting confused about their new phones, which is why they've settled for a simple N, NS, N+1, N+1S system. It makes sense now, it just doesn't make sense if you check the history. Apple doesn't care about the history, only the aforementioned do.
As long as you're buying an Apple I doubt Mac care what you think the company is called. And what exactly would they do about it anyway, mount a "We are Apple" ad campaign? Pointless.

This is all silly. A great deal of money goes into marketing. This means brands and trademarks not being copied by others and even keeping highly popular brands from being genericized. Saying they only care about the purchase is a fallacious argument. If you can't see that brand recognition matters then explain why there are so many lawsuits across all industries trying to protect their branding?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #187 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

This is all silly. A great deal of money goes into marketing. This means brands and trademarks not being copied by others and even keeping highly popular brands from being genericized. Saying they only care about the purchase is a fallacious argument. If you can't see that brand recognition matters then explain why there are so many lawsuits across all industries trying to protect their branding?
So iPhone should sue Apple for confusing their brand? And Apple should sue Mac?
As long as the recognition is favourable and coming to one of Apples products they really don't care about incidental confusions. You knew exactly what the guy using an "Apple" phone meant didn't you? The store goon will as well so the sale will go through. They're selling devices just fine, even if the odd idiot doesn't remember what it's called.

Of course brand recognition is important, but to stop potential iPhone customers from buying Galaxy S3s, not to ensure those customers are intimately aware of precise naming conventions.

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post #188 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

So iPhone should sue Apple for confusing their brand? And Apple should sue Mac?
As long as the recognition is favourable and coming to one of Apples products they really don't care about incidental confusions. You knew exactly what the guy using an "Apple" phone meant didn't you? The store goon will as well so the sale will go through. They're selling devices just fine, even if the odd idiot doesn't remember what it's called.

Of course brand recognition is important, but to stop potential iPhone customers from buying Galaxy S3s, not to ensure those customers are intimately aware of precise naming conventions.

None of your comments make any sense. If you are still talking about the original point you may want to try again.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #189 of 199
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
As long as you're buying an Apple I doubt Mac care what you think the company is called.

 

Is this on purpose? I honestly can't tell, given the rest of your comment.


Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
So iPhone should sue Apple for confusing their brand? And Apple should sue Mac?

 

I'm starting to think it wasn't on purpose.


 And what exactly would they do about it anyway, mount a "We are Apple" ad campaign? Pointless.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #190 of 199
I believe Solipsism stated earlier that he hears people referring to the iPhone with all manner of names.

I hear the same thing constantly.

Referencing something called iPhone 2
Referring to Android phones as iPhones
Referring to iPhone 4 as iPhone 4G
etc.
post #191 of 199
Consistency is probably the most important thing in something like the brand/model number. The phones' paradigm of alternating a new number with that number "S" works fine now because everyone's accustomed to it, and "S" has meant, consistently: no new form factor but improved functionality (primarily). The "S" label even seems like a model/brand Apple is committed to, the way they're designing the packaging. People do say, "I'll wait for the 'S'," (usually if they had bought the previous "S"). But in the case of iPad, where Apple just discarded any discernable labeling logic, none of this appears to matter, maybe because there's almost no competition. People are more or less comfortable saying "the latest iPad" or "the previous model", and people clearly don't care, they just snatch them right up.
post #192 of 199
Nikon is another pretty successful company that has used the "s" tag to indicate an upgrade that they don't quite want to call a new generation.
post #193 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Is this on purpose? I honestly can't tell, given the rest of your comment.

 

I'm starting to think it wasn't on purpose.

 

Of course it was all intentional.  I was making a point - everyone who buys an iPhone or Mac knows the brand, whether they call them Apple or Mac, and whether they call the product an iPhone or an Apple.  Brand awareness is about making people aware of your company and/or products, not about the subtleties of product naming and fascistic technical correctness about terms. Again, Apple don't care if people spell it "MAC", or go to "The Mac Store", or talk on their "Apple phone" or play with their "iTouch".  As long as they're in the ballpark and they've identified the product with one of Apple's trademarks, Apple are perfectly comfortable with it.  This applies 10x to people calling the iPhone 3G the iPhone 3.  Apple have genuine things to put their attention to, so they leave getting worked up over these trivialities to people with more time on their hands.

 

 

Not sure why you went to the trouble of posting the advert which I referenced, but thanks.  They ran that horrendous campaign in 1984 for sales reps to put across a message to retailers.  At that time comparatively few people knew about the company or its products, but with the mindshare they currently enjoy they'll probably never feel they have to do anything like that again (unless they hit the road hard or if they launch in North Korea).  They certainly don't feel that now.  You get it?

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post #194 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


None of your comments make any sense. If you are still talking about the original point you may want to try again.

They make perfect sense.  Try reading them again, or feel free to ask me for clarification on any particular passage that you're having difficulty with.

 

Actually, don't.  This conversation is half past boring.  Carry on caring about immaterial nonsense if you like.


Edited by Crowley - 4/9/13 at 2:30am

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post #195 of 199
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
Again, Apple don't care if people spell it "MAC", or go to "The Mac Store", or talk on their "Apple phone" or play with their "iTouch".

 

They specifically do care about those things. They have documents on their website that outline all the guidelines for such things.


As long as they're in the ballpark and they've identified the product with one of Apple's trademarks

 

Well, none of those are Apple's trademarks, so…


This applies 10x to people calling the iPhone 3G the iPhone 3.  Apple have genuine things to put their attention to, so they leave getting worked up over these trivialities to people with more time on their hands.

 

The "triviality" known as "Having to lie to a customer about support for their device because you don't have a clue which one they actually have since they're too stupid to call it the right name", you mean?

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #196 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

They specifically do care about those things. They have documents on their website that outline all the guidelines for such things.
Apple cares that ITS employees use the proper names. But if a customer says he has an iPhone, they are not going to berate the man and refuse to help him until he says the actual name. Notice the iDevices just have the base iDevice name and not 3/4/4S after them.
post #197 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

 

Brand awareness is about making people aware of your company and/or products, not about the subtleties of product naming and fascistic technical correctness about terms. Again, Apple don't care if people spell it "MAC", or go to "The Mac Store", or talk on their "Apple phone" or play with their "iTouch".  As long as they're in the ballpark and they've identified the product with one of Apple's trademarks, Apple are perfectly comfortable with it.  This applies 10x to people calling the iPhone 3G the iPhone 3.  Apple have genuine things to put their attention to, so they leave getting worked up over these trivialities to people with more time on their hands.

 

 

Not so. Every detail, including the naming system, is very important. Brand architecture and naming are key elements of brand strategy. If you are not convinced read any one of a thousand books on the subject.

post #198 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkling View Post

How silly! It's about what I'd expect from a 'brand consultant' focused on image and illusions. It's shallow, ill-informed people talking about the views of equally shallow, ill-informed people.
 

 

You clearly have absolutely no idea what a brand consultant does. I'm afraid it is you that is looking 'shallow and ill-informed'.

post #199 of 199
EDIT: Actually, never mind, this isn't an argument worth caring about. If you think Apple care about the takeup of naming conventions of their past products then bully for you, go crazy doing what you're doing. You're clearly wrong, but I can't do anything for you. Brand consultants can go ahead and care about building future brand recognition, but if you think that's an area where Apple has a problem then you've got a mighty case of the crazies.

End of.
Edited by Crowley - 4/9/13 at 5:35pm

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