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Avid announces Pro Tools 11 and Media Composer 7 for Mac & PC

post #1 of 38
Thread Starter 
Avid on Monday announced the launch of Pro Tools 11, as well as a range of new solutions for audio-editing professionals, including a two new audio portable audio interfaces that provide high-quality I/O for iOS devices.

avid-130408.jpg


Avid's new Pro Tools 11 brings new high-powered audio and video engines, 64-bit architecture, expanded metering, and direct HD video workflows. The new software allows for bigger, more complex sessions and ultra-low latency record monitoring without plug-in performance taking a hit. Pro Tools 11 will be available as a complimentary upgrade for users that buy, upgrade, or crossgrade to Pro Tools 10 on or after April 7.

In addition to the new version of Pro Tools, Avid introduced Avid Fast Track Solo and Duo. These two devices are portable studio-grade USB audio interfaces allowing users to turn Macs, PCs, and iPads into complete songwriting and music recording systems. The Fast Track Duo has dual mic preamps/instrument inputs, line-level inputs, and pro Tools express software. The Fast Track Solo features a single mic preamp, an instrument input, and Pro Tools Express software.

The Fast Track Solo will retail for $179, while the Fast Track Duo will sell for $299. Pro Tools 11 will sell for $700.

Avid announced a number of other new offerings, including Avid Media Composer 7 and Motion Graphics 2.5. The company also announced the availability of new Interplay Production solutions, including Interplay Production 3.0, Interplay Pulse, and Avid AirSpeed 5000 2.5.
post #2 of 38

I used to use Protools a long time ago, when it was still for Pros, but I don't use it anymore, as too many amateurs use it now. They should call it amateur tools instead.

 

I haven't heard those new interfaces, but I'll bet my left testicle that they don't sound that great. Look at the ridiculous cheap price for them. Who are they selling to? Pros, or amateurs with no money? I'm also not fond of M-audio, which is also owned by Avid now. I threw a perfectly good, functioning and working M-Audio keyboard in the trash a few weeks ago, because it just pissed me off. It wasn't even worth the cheap price that I paid for it.

post #3 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I used to use Protools a long time ago, when it was still for Pros, but I don't use it anymore, as too many amateurs use it now. They should call it amateur tools instead.

 

I haven't heard those new interfaces, but I'll bet my left testicle that they don't sound that great. Look at the ridiculous cheap price for them. Who are they selling to? Pros, or amateurs with no money? I'm also not fond of M-audio, which is also owned by Avid now. I threw a perfectly good, functioning and working M-Audio keyboard in the trash a few weeks ago, because it just pissed me off. It wasn't even worth the cheap price that I paid for it.

There is a difference between Avid BRANDED and another brand also owned by Avid. Avid is one of the most well respected name brands in Hollywood. I would be surprised if they released sub-par products. As far as the M-Audio keyboard, I not sure which one you used but a quick search on B&H, which for the most part, serves the professional market, I found the reviews of their 61es keyboard:

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=903700&Q=&is=REG&A=details

 

Most of the reviewers are identified as professional or experienced users and the average rating is 4.5 out of 5

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post #4 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I used to use Protools a long time ago, when it was still for Pros, but I don't use it anymore, as too many amateurs use it now. They should call it amateur tools instead.

 

I haven't heard those new interfaces, but I'll bet my left testicle that they don't sound that great. Look at the ridiculous cheap price for them. Who are they selling to? Pros, or amateurs with no money? I'm also not fond of M-audio, which is also owned by Avid now. I threw a perfectly good, functioning and working M-Audio keyboard in the trash a few weeks ago, because it just pissed me off. It wasn't even worth the cheap price that I paid for it.

Somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

post #5 of 38
"""I used to use Protools a long time ago, when it was still for Pros, but I don't use it anymore, as too many amateurs use it now. They should call it amateur tools instead."""

Nothing says "amateur" like the above sentence. It has "amateur" (and immature) written in bold all over it.

For one, most professional studios, especially in the USA, use Pro Tools. Not that it matters much, Logic or Cubase are also professional despite being used slightly less in studios.

Second, a professional does not switch tools depending on ...who else is using them. And he doesn't justify his pro status by using some software, he justifies it by the work he does.

You sound extremely amateur (and snob about it) and around 18. The second might only be true emotionally -- you never know with some people on the internet. The are 40 and behave like teenagers.

"""I haven't heard those new interfaces, but I'll bet my left testicle that they don't sound that great. Look at the ridiculous cheap price for them. Who are they selling to? Pros, or amateurs with no money"""

There are also Pro's with no money. But you don't have to but your balls (and risk losing them), there will be tests from several news outlets, with proper measuring equipment and all, instead of guesses from idiots, about how good or bad the interfaces are.
post #6 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

There is a difference between Avid BRANDED and another brand also owned by Avid. Avid is one of the most well respected name brands in Hollywood. I would be surprised if they released sub-par products. As far as the M-Audio keyboard, I not sure which one you used but a quick search on B&H, which for the most part, serves the professional market, I found the reviews of their 61es keyboard:

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=903700&Q=&is=REG&A=details

 

Most of the reviewers are identified as professional or experienced users and the average rating is 4.5 out of 5

Yes, I know that Avid is well known for their video stuff. I don't have any experience with their video stuff. My speciality is audio.

 

Protools used to be owned by Digidesign until Avid took it over. 

 

As for the keyboard you link to, it is complete crap. I had that same exact keyboard, and as a matter of fact, that is the one that I threw away. It just doesn't have a good feel to it. It feels like cheap plastic and it is a hinder for creativity and any good player will get pissed off by just playing on it. Keyboard feel is a subjective thing, but for me, it just feels like crap. It's not even worth $169 IMO.

 

Those reviews mean nothing. People lie all of the time, and everybody will identify themselves as being pro or experienced, even though they are clueless. If somebody is an amateur, doesn't really know how to play and is flat broke, then I guess that that keyboard might be a good option for them.

post #7 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landcruiser View Post

Somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

No, I'm actually in an ok mood today.lol.gif

 

Sometimes, I just tell it like I see it.

post #8 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

As for the keyboard you link to, it is complete crap. 

 

`It was a battered and scarred violin. 
The auctioneer brought it out,
It was scarcely worth his while
 
He held it up and with a smile
He cried: “Good folks, who will 
start the bidding for me?" 
"A dollar, a dollar" Then, 
“Two!" Only two? Who will make it three?
"Three dollars, once: three dollars, 
twice; going for three"   
 
But no! from the room, far back, 
a gray-haired man came forward 
and picked up the bow; 
Then, wiping the dust from the old violin,
And tightening the loose strings, 
He played a melody so pure and sweet, 
as caroling angels would sing.
 
The music ceased, and the auctioneer, 
With a voice that was quiet and low, said: 
"What am I to bid for the old violin?" 
And he held it up with the bow.
"A thousand dollars, and who'll make it two? 
Two thousand! And who'll make it three?
Three thousand once, Three thousand, twice 
And going, and gone," “Three thousand gone!” .
 
The people cheered, but someone exclaimed:
"I do not quite understand. 
What changed its worth so quickly?”
Swift came the reply: 
`The touch of a master's hand".

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post #9 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Yes, I know that Avid is well known for their video stuff. I don't have any experience with their video stuff. My specialty is audio.

 

Protools used to be owned by Digidesign until Avid took it over. 

 

As for the keyboard you link to, it is complete crap. I had that same exact keyboard, and as a matter of fact, that is the one that I threw away. It just doesn't have a good feel to it. It feels like cheap plastic and it is a hinder for creativity and any good player will get pissed off by just playing on it. Keyboard feel is a subjective thing, but for me, it just feels like crap. It's not even worth $169 IMO.

 

Those reviews mean nothing. People lie all of the time, and everybody will identify themselves as being pro or experienced, even though they are clueless. If somebody is an amateur, doesn't really know how to play and is flat broke, then I guess that that keyboard might be a good option for them.


The M-Audio keyboard mentioned here is more or less fine for course triggering of samples, drums and so on - at least in my experience.  If you're a 'real' piano player and you're looking for weighted keys to simulate the feel of a real piano experience. well of course the M-Audio keyboard will leave you wishing for more.  There's very little feedback from the M-Audio device, but again a weighted keyboard is going to set you back more $$$ wise.  That said, weighted keyboards leave me wanting LESS when I'm just trying to course trigger samples.  In the end, I ended up with both types and use them as there were intended - as tools. 

post #10 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by foljs View Post

"""I used to use Protools a long time ago, when it was still for Pros, but I don't use it anymore, as too many amateurs use it now. They should call it amateur tools instead."""

Nothing says "amateur" like the above sentence. It has "amateur" (and immature) written in bold all over it.

For one, most professional studios, especially in the USA, use Pro Tools. Not that it matters much, Logic or Cubase are also professional despite being used slightly less in studios.

Second, a professional does not switch tools depending on ...who else is using them. And he doesn't justify his pro status by using some software, he justifies it by the work he does.

You sound extremely amateur (and snob about it) and around 18. The second might only be true emotionally -- you never know with some people on the internet. The are 40 and behave like teenagers.

"""I haven't heard those new interfaces, but I'll bet my left testicle that they don't sound that great. Look at the ridiculous cheap price for them. Who are they selling to? Pros, or amateurs with no money"""

There are also Pro's with no money. But you don't have to but your balls (and risk losing them), there will be tests from several news outlets, with proper measuring equipment and all, instead of guesses from idiots, about how good or bad the interfaces are.

 

Speaking of amateurish, your quoting system is quite amateurish and difficult to respond to. You should consider yourself lucky that I am even responding to a person who doesn't know how to properly communicate on a forum.

 

You may believe what you like, but how many plaques do you have hanging on your wall? My opinions are rarely wrong.

post #11 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarfungo View Post


The M-Audio keyboard mentioned here is more or less fine for course triggering of samples, drums and so on - at least in my experience.  If you're a 'real' piano player and you're looking for weighted keys to simulate the feel of a real piano experience. well of course the M-Audio keyboard will leave you wishing for more.  There's very little feedback from the M-Audio device, but again a weighted keyboard is going to set you back more $$$ wise.  That said, weighted keyboards leave me wanting LESS when I'm just trying to course trigger samples.  In the end, I ended up with both types and use them as there were intended - as tools. 

 

As I stated previously, keyboard feel is pretty subjective. I don't prefer piano feel (unless I'm playing a piano sound) , but I prefer a semi-weighted feel, that is not too springy and not too plastic feeling.

 

And the keyboard that was linked to is a 61 key keyboard, I would imagine that it is intended for people to actually play on. If somebody is just going to trigger samples, they can do that on practically anything.

post #12 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

You may believe what you like, but how many plaques do you have hanging on your wall? My opinions are rarely wrong.

Except perhaps your opinion of yourself.

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post #13 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I used to use Protools a long time ago, when it was still for Pros, but I don't use it anymore, as too many amateurs use it now. They should call it amateur tools instead.

 

I haven't heard those new interfaces, but I'll bet my left testicle that they don't sound that great. Look at the ridiculous cheap price for them. Who are they selling to? Pros, or amateurs with no money? I'm also not fond of M-audio, which is also owned by Avid now. I threw a perfectly good, functioning and working M-Audio keyboard in the trash a few weeks ago, because it just pissed me off. It wasn't even worth the cheap price that I paid for it.

There is a difference between Avid BRANDED and another brand also owned by Avid. Avid is one of the most well respected name brands in Hollywood. I would be surprised if they released sub-par products. As far as the M-Audio keyboard, I not sure which one you used but a quick search on B&H, which for the most part, serves the professional market, I found the reviews of their 61es keyboard:

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=903700&Q=&is=REG&A=details

 

Most of the reviewers are identified as professional or experienced users and the average rating is 4.5 out of 5

Talk about "Pro Tools"; That dude is the definition of "tool".

Damn, I wish blocked commenters wouldn't show up in other people's quoted comments.

(yeah, he's a "pro". Probably from the 1990s)

post #14 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Except perhaps your opinion of yourself.

Is it a crime to think highly of oneself? lol.gif

 

Maybe in today's PC world it is, but I tend not to care too much about that.1smoking.gif

post #15 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Except perhaps your opinion of yourself.

Oh, that's not the only one by a long shot.

post #16 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Is it a crime to think highly of oneself? lol.gif

 

Maybe in today's PC world it is, but I tend not to care too much about that.1smoking.gif

...and all of our righteousnesses are like filthy rags

 

Isaiah 64:6

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post #17 of 38
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Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Is it a crime to think highly of oneself? lol.gif

 

Maybe in today's PC world it is, but I tend not to care too much about that.1smoking.gif

Its not a crime. But that is the wrong word in this context.

post #18 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I used to use Protools a long time ago, when it was still for Pros, but I don't use it anymore, as too many amateurs use it now. They should call it amateur tools instead.

 

 

What pray tell do you replace it with?  I've got a cup of coffee ready and am all set for a Reaper home studio user to tell me how much his clients love the Reaper Windows 95 workflow.   What do you use?   Nuendo?  DP?

 

I didn't throw away my Subaru just because a bunch of people I didn't like started buying them.   How foolish.

 

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

 

I haven't heard those new interfaces, but I'll bet my left testicle that they don't sound that great. Look at the ridiculous cheap price for them. Who are they selling to? Pros, or amateurs with no money? I'm also not fond of M-audio, which is also owned by Avid now. I threw a perfectly good, functioning and working M-Audio keyboard in the trash a few weeks ago, because it just pissed me off. It wasn't even worth the cheap price that I paid for it.

 

 

Avid owns several smaller entities to cover the lower end market.  If you're using the example of the cheap, plastic M-Audio keyboard you bought and didn't like you've totally lost the argument about why ProTools isn't so great.   I would be more upset with myself for buying it than the fact that I thought a $75 controller would thrill me to death after I got it home after hating it in the store.

 

There are other forums for this, like, the Gearslutz "Low End Theory" category.

post #19 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlandd View Post

 

What pray tell do you replace it with?  I've got a cup of coffee ready and am all set for a Reaper home studio user to tell me how much his clients love the Reaper Windows 95 workflow.   What do you use?   Nuendo?  DP?

 

I didn't throw away my Subaru just because a bunch of people I didn't like started buying them.   How foolish.

 

 

I still have Pro Tools on a few older Macs, I just don't use it too much anymore. Pro Tools is still very good, if somebody is strictly working with 100% audio material, IMO. I just prefer other DAWs when dealing with both Midi and Audio. Pro Tools was very late in getting good Midi implementation IMO.

 

The main DAW that I prefer to compose with is Logic nowadays, though I do also have Cubase which gets used from time to time, and on certain projects a combination of DAWs get used.

post #20 of 38
Quote:

Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

 

As for the keyboard you link to, it is complete crap. I had that same exact keyboard, and as a matter of fact, that is the one that I threw away. It just doesn't have a good feel to it. It feels like cheap plastic and it is a hinder for creativity and any good player will get pissed off by just playing on it. Keyboard feel is a subjective thing, but for me, it just feels like crap. It's not even worth $169 IMO.

 

Just to chime in here... count me as an M-Audio keyboard skeptic.  I purchased a 61-note Axiom in an emergency, and while it got me through the gig, there's no way I would depend on it, long-term, for live performances.  The build quality does not inspire confidence; in fact, it's shoddier than a 90's-vintage Casio or Yamaha consumer instrument (<$100).

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post #21 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by PScooter63 View Post

 

Just to chime in here... count me as an M-Audio keyboard skeptic.  I purchased a 61-note Axiom in an emergency, and while it got me through the gig, there's no way I would depend on it, long-term, for live performances.  The build quality does not inspire confidence; in fact, it's shoddier than a 90's-vintage Casio or Yamaha consumer instrument (<$100).

I agree. It seems that many keyboards and controllers now are all about cramming as many useless and cheap plastic sliders as they can on to it, and they seem to neglect the most important thing, having a good feeling keybed and an overall good and sturdy build quality.

post #22 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I haven't heard those new interfaces, but I'll bet my left testicle that they don't sound that great. Look at the ridiculous cheap price for them. Who are they selling to? Pros, or amateurs with no money?

 

 

You think so?  Really?  I was sure these sub $300 interfaces were meant to compete with $4,000 worth of mic pres and converters in a high end pro rack.

 

Thanks for clearing that up.   The nerve of anyone making products for that market.  1rolleyes.gif

post #23 of 38
ProTools is still the industry standard, and with good reason. Nothing comes close, and Avid's business model has been great - making Protools run on non-Avid hardware was a fantastic move (previously you had to have Avid hardware plugged in to run it).

This update is really all about 64-bit support and integrating video a lot better, finally. I hoped that Avid's purchase of Sibelius and Digidesign would have created an Adobe CS-style video/recording/notation suite by now, but this is a step in the right direction.

I don't have giant track counts, so 64-bit support is not so important for me, so i'll probably wait until ProTools 12, but i'm sure there are a lot of studios that will be making the upgrade. I just hope they keep supporting 11 for a couple more OSX upgrades.
post #24 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I'm also not fond of M-audio, which is also owned by Avid now.

 

M-Audio is no longer owned by Avid it was sold in mid 2012 to inMusic who also own Akai, Alesis and Numark.
post #25 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by chelgrian View Post

 

M-Audio is no longer owned by Avid it was sold in mid 2012 to inMusic who also own Akai, Alesis and Numark.

 

I must have missed that news, but thanks for the correction, as accuracy and facts are what is important.

 

In that case, I think that Avid made a smart move by dumping the M-Audio brand. I basically associate M-Audio with cheap crap, and I don't think that I'm the only one.

post #26 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

I don't have giant track counts, so 64-bit support is not so important for me, so i'll probably wait until ProTools 12, but i'm sure there are a lot of studios that will be making the upgrade. I just hope they keep supporting 11 for a couple more OSX upgrades.

64 bit support is not just about the track count. It also has to do with RAM implementation.

 

Even if you're only using 2 tracks and running a heavy duty plugin that eats up many GBs of RAM, 64 bit support is quite helpful. 

 

I used to use Logic 32 bit, and heavy duty plugins would sometimes crash it, because there was only so much RAM that Logic could access, but after going to 64 bit, I'm able to run a lot more of those heavy duty plugins without worries.

post #27 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Speaking of amateurish, your quoting system is quite amateurish and difficult to respond to. 

 

That's because I don't spend much time in forums to be familiar with each and every BS quoting system, just drop in once in a while (In this case, I had to respond to the enormous stupidity). I expected whitespace to be preserved, but AI's webpage doesn't preserve whitespace from the reply box under each post --- you need to be in the forum thread for the post for it to work properly. 

 

All of which are beside the point.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

You may believe what you like, but how many plaques do you have hanging on your wall? My opinions are rarely wrong.

 

You could have 200 plaques hanging on your wall and be a batshit crazy (like Phil Spector) or totally ignorant of modern DAWs (like Jack White).

 

Heck, even Justin Bieber has lots of 'plaques hanging on his wall" and I wouldn't listen to his opinions on singing (much less on DAWs).

 

Your opinions are "rarely wrong"???

 

What are you, like 5? 

post #28 of 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I must have missed that news, but thanks for the correction, as accuracy and facts are what is important.

 

Yes, "accuracy and facts" are very important... 

 

That's why we should just trust your BS opinion (which is "rarely wrong") that PT is not for professionals anymore (...) and that M-Audio keyboards are crap.

 

And PT are crap because not because of any coherent argument you could articulate, but because "lots of amateurs are using them nowadays".

 

But then again, you are the idiot who bought a keyboard who you don't like, so what do you know.

 

Wait, wtf? You have posted 4500+ comments on AI? Yes, a real professional...

post #29 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by foljs View Post

That's why we should just trust your BS opinion (which is "rarely wrong") that PT is not for professionals anymore (...) and that M-Audio keyboards are crap.

 

Those interfaces in the article are not pro and having the Pro Tools moniker given to them is quite ironic, considering who is going to be using them.

 

And yes, M-Audio keyboards are crap. If you can't handle somebody's opinion without resorting to childish ad-hominems, then it is clearly you that is the moron.

post #30 of 38

There are a lot of choices for iOS audio interfaces so it will be interesting to see how they compare to others on the market (like Apogee, Focusrite and so on).

 

As to their quality, I'm sure they will be good enough for what they're intended for. Nobody is going to build a studio around them, but they're good for people who like to play around and lay down a few tracks.

 

I've worked on the side as an engineer for almost 30 years now (found out I has a knack for it when I was young and always had people request me to work with them). I'm definitely not an "equipment snob" and kind of laugh at people who are. I've seen people use basic equipment and produce excellent results while seeing others with "all the latest & greatest" gear produce crap. People really need to learn the basics so they can get the best out of whatever they're using, not buy the most expensive gear and expect the results will always be great.

 

A perfect example is listening to some classic albums (Fleetwood Mac, Dire Straits, Donald Fagen/Steely Dan, Supertramp, Pink Floyd and a bunch I've missed). All made with equipment that was far behind what's available today and with a very limited ability to edit or "fix" things in post. Yet they sound incredible because they took the time to make sure it was recorded properly. I've said it before - so many people just record as quickly as possible knowing they can fix things later in software.

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post #31 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

A perfect example is listening to some classic albums (Fleetwood Mac, Dire Straits, Donald Fagen/Steely Dan, Supertramp, Pink Floyd and a bunch I've missed). All made with equipment that was far behind what's available today and with a very limited ability to edit or "fix" things in post. Yet they sound incredible because they took the time to make sure it was recorded properly. I've said it before - so many people just record as quickly as possible knowing they can fix things later in software.

 

I agree with most of what you've said. Somebody who is good and has talent can make something sound decent, no matter which gear they are working with. And on the other hand, you can take somebody who is clueless and put them in a real expensive studio, and you will end up with crap.

 

I don't agree with your last paragraph though. Those classic albums and groups that you mention used some really good gear, gear that is much better than what most people use today, and gear that is still highly desired and extremely pricey. They didn't have Pro Tools back then of course, so nobody was able to cheat or disguise their lack of musicianship as many do today, but the basic gear that those groups used to record with was mostly top of the line, the pre amps, the compressors, the eqs, the mixers, the microphones, the tape machines etc.

 

I'll gladly take any of that old gear (like the preamps and mics), and I would choose it over any new gear, regardless of price.

post #32 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by foljs View Post

[...] There are also Pro's with no money. But you don't have to but your balls (and risk losing them), there will be tests from several news outlets, with proper measuring equipment and all, instead of guesses from idiots, about how good or bad the interfaces are.

 

He's actually right about THAT part. Low-cost interfaces from Avid (nee Digidesign) actually are bat barf by pro standards. It amazes me that people buy them, but then people buy all kinds of crappy gear so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.

post #33 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlandd View Post

[...] Avid owns several smaller entities to cover the lower end market.

 

Avid didn't even buy M-audio, Digidesign did. When Avid bought Digi they got M-audio too. They've been trying to sell itfor months with no takers.

 

Edit: I see they DID sell it. Same owner as Akai and Numark, huh? Sounds about right.


Edited by v5v - 4/8/13 at 9:36pm
post #34 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

[...] I'm definitely not an "equipment snob" and kind of laugh at people who are.

 

View such attitudes with skepticism, but don't laugh.

 

Many (most?) people who poo-poo the value of high-quality gear do so without benefit of ever having USED it. It's hard to go back once you've used devices that sound better, interface better and "quirk" less. Some things that cost more provide only subtle benefits, but some, like high voltage rails, yield huge benefits. There are stupid reasons for being a gear snob, but in some cases, there are GOOD reasons.

 

I have several inexpensive devices that let me dial in a really nice sweet spot. I compare those to a precious few expensive units that have nothing BUT "sweet" at ANY control setting.

 

A device that doesn't require all kinds of tweaking is more enjoyable and FASTER to use, which means the talent spends less time standing around getting grumpy. Happy talent make more difference to the final result than any piece of gear ever could!

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

I've seen people use basic equipment and produce excellent results while seeing others with "all the latest & greatest" gear produce crap.

 

Sure, given a choice between cheap gear in good hands or good gear in unskilled hand I'll take the former. There's another category though... good gear in skilled hands. That sounds even better than the first guy, and sounds good sooner!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

A perfect example is listening to some classic albums (Fleetwood Mac, Dire Straits, Donald Fagen/Steely Dan, Supertramp, Pink Floyd and a bunch I've missed). All made with equipment that was far behind what's available today and with a very limited ability to edit or "fix" things in post. Yet they sound incredible because they took the time to make sure it was recorded properly. I've said it before - so many people just record as quickly as possible knowing they can fix things later in software.

 

Two different arguments there. You're right that a "fix it in the mix" attitude is a quality killer, and you're right that taking care to do things properly is a big part of what makes those recordings great.

 

I do not agree that the gear those people used was "far behind what's available today" though. Today's digital gear has the advantage of lower noise, but in virtually every other respect you have to look to high-end "snob" gear like Manley et al to get anything similar today. In fact, boutique manufacturers are recreating gear from that era now and selling it through snob channels at snob prices! Trident, UA, Telefunken, Neve, etc.

post #35 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I used to use Protools a long time ago, when it was still for Pros, but I don't use it anymore, as too many amateurs use it now. They should call it amateur tools instead.

 

I haven't heard those new interfaces, but I'll bet my left testicle that they don't sound that great. Look at the ridiculous cheap price for them. Who are they selling to? Pros, or amateurs with no money? I'm also not fond of M-audio, which is also owned by Avid now. I threw a perfectly good, functioning and working M-Audio keyboard in the trash a few weeks ago, because it just pissed me off. It wasn't even worth the cheap price that I paid for it.

Ok a Logic (and Cubase) user who mainly does MIDI at home. LOL. STFU and get back to the other forums and talk about Mac stuff. Adults are talking here.

I've got many plaques on my wall, and most of the plaques and trophies me and my coworkers have are due in part to working with Pro Tools.

post #36 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

ProTools is still the industry standard, and with good reason. Nothing comes close, and Avid's business model has been great - making Protools run on non-Avid hardware was a fantastic move (previously you had to have Avid hardware plugged in to run it).

This update is really all about 64-bit support and integrating video a lot better, finally. I hoped that Avid's purchase of Sibelius and Digidesign would have created an Adobe CS-style video/recording/notation suite by now, but this is a step in the right direction.

I don't have giant track counts, so 64-bit support is not so important for me, so i'll probably wait until ProTools 12, but i'm sure there are a lot of studios that will be making the upgrade. I just hope they keep supporting 11 for a couple more OSX upgrades.

 

A lot of what people who have valid complaints about ProTools are always pointing out (not great midi editing, terrible virtual instrument handling, dearth of cheap and free compatible plugins) are simply not part of the equation for most high end environments.   It's not the standard in THESE arenas lo these many years later because the studio owners are ignorant sheep.

 

I have huge issues with a lot of the Avid customer experience, but the fact is it's pretty terrible or at best disappointing for every pro audio product I use across the board, with the notable exception of Metric Halo.   Even pointing to how horrible Avid's site is for getting solutions (which I often do) as a reason they stink doesn't change the fact that it's around the middle of the pack in that respect, and most of the major DAW net presences are no better at all.   

 

Sure, use Logic and watch bugs show up with new OS updates and read the reams of complaints in the Apple Logic user forum, met by crickets for MONTHS.   

 

Lack of offline rendering has always been the biggest PITA for me.  For years it's been sending over to Logic (and now Reaper instead) for final offline rendering with DSP of 16 hour projects.   But neither of those two could take over the workflow, especially editing and file management, that we do up to that point in PT.  Very excited to get offline rendering, finally, in PT11.

 

ProTools isn't perfect but it's the best workflow for audio for a certain world out there.


Edited by jlandd - 4/9/13 at 7:55am
post #37 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

 

View such attitudes with skepticism, but don't laugh.

 

Many (most?) people who poo-poo the value of high-quality gear do so without benefit of ever having USED it.

 

I do not agree that the gear those people used was "far behind what's available today" though. Today's digital gear has the advantage of lower noise, but in virtually every other respect you have to look to high-end "snob" gear like Manley et al to get anything similar today. In fact, boutique manufacturers are recreating gear from that era now and selling it through snob channels at snob prices! Trident, UA, Telefunken, Neve, etc.

 

I did a quick calculation in my head and my collection of mics is worth more than my car (and I don't drive a clunker). Back in the early 80's I used to modify recording consoles. I'd pull out the channel strips and upgrade the electronic components with newer (better, quieter) components. I'm very familiar with high-end gear and equipment I've purchased for myself is always the best I can afford.

 

This is not what I'm getting at by referring to "snobs". Buying high-end gear doesn't make you a "snob". Looking down on people who buy low-end gear (or criticizing low-end gear) is. Not everyone can afford the best. And people who are just starting out and learning are not going to do so on the best equipment available. Low-end equipment has a very useful place in the market. It's asinine to criticize such gear or complain about it in comparison to high-end gear.

 

There's a saying: What's the difference between a Porcupine and a Porsche? The Porcupine has the pricks on the outside. I get sick of people who talk about the gear they use as if they're somehow better than people who use basic, entry-level stuff.

 

 

30-40 years ago there were great sounding mics and very quiet consoles. I'm talking more about what the final sound is recorded to. There are severe limitations to using tape (when compared to something like ProTools). This is the weak link in the chain, and one of the main reasons why engineers were so careful to make sure that what went to tape was the highest quality possible. It was the difficulty in fixing things later.

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post #38 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

This is not what I'm getting at by referring to "snobs". Buying high-end gear doesn't make you a "snob". Looking down on people who buy low-end gear (or criticizing low-end gear) is. Not everyone can afford the best. And people who are just starting out and learning are not going to do so on the best equipment available. Low-end equipment has a very useful place in the market. It's asinine to criticize such gear or complain about it in comparison to high-end gear.

 

Gotcha. I like your perspective on that. I'm sure the gear *I* use seems "low-end" to the guy with the D-Control and boutique outboard. There's more to it than just "good" gear and "cheap" gear -- there's a continuum.

 

Sometimes I see "reality checks" being confused with "snobbery" though. The guy that claims his amp-sim plug-in is "just as good" as a real amp in a good room with a good mic will often be met with jabs, but it's not because he uses a plug-in, it's because he's betraying his ignorance. If he said a real amp in a good room with a good mic is impractical for him, and he's satisfied with what he's getting with his plug-in, and said so after HEARING the difference, he'd get a more respectful response.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

30-40 years ago there were great sounding mics and very quiet consoles. I'm talking more about what the final sound is recorded to. There are severe limitations to using tape (when compared to something like ProTools). This is the weak link in the chain, and one of the main reasons why engineers were so careful to make sure that what went to tape was the highest quality possible. It was the difficulty in fixing things later.

 

About ten years ago I took part in a comparison of dozens of recordings intended to evaluate the benefits of various devices, techniques and environments. We'd listen to the tracks, form our opinions, THEN read the session notes. I was shocked and amazed to discover that the vast majority of the tracks that made me feel warm and fuzzy sonically were recorded on 2" 24! Obviously a good deal of that comes down to 2" machines only being in the hands of people who know how to make good recordings and only being found in good sounding rooms with good equipment around them, but it really brought home the payoff that comes from keeping priorities straight.

 

I'm not giving up Pro Tools or buying a Studer anytime soon, but I am trying to remember the lessons we learned from working that way. Things like a flawed recording of an emotional delivery beats a perfect recording of a yawn every time; just make a freakin' decision and move on; and sometimes the fix is worse than the flaw.

 

As for console mods, if you ever see me write anything here that suggests I'm thinking about doing it again, shoot me quick! You are a much more patient man than am I! Wanna buy a 16 channel Delta?

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