Originally Posted by SolipsismX
It's actually over 9 feet for the minimum Retina effect. You think the average person sits more than 9 feet away at a minimum?
I believe based on the studies that most folks sit more than 4x screen height away from their HDTVs. Yes, that means they typically sit farther away than what is required for 60 PPD and some of the current HD resolution is "wasted".
Rather than roll your eyes I suggest you use it to look at the data.
Your 9 feet number is meaningless without specifying screen size. It's true only of 70" screens.
As a normal housegold you will sit closer than 9.1 feet.
Where did you pull this number from? Citation needed.
:no:That's not what you originally stated.
What I stated is that 1080 HDTV replicated being the last seat in a theater. As in that's what it's like in comparison.
Of course there are standards that are used within businesses of all types. No one is saying otherwise,
You said otherwise here is your direct quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
First of all, theater screens nor their seating capacity, rows and row widths are standardized so you can't possibly say that as fact.
The fact is that theater screens are standardized in terms of aspect ratio. Given the aspect ratio and screen size the rest is computed.
Theater design parameters are standardized relative to screen height.
Where the back row should be is standardized relative to screen height.
I provided those standards. Not every theater will adhere to those standards but they exist thus you can make generalizations like "1080p HDTV is like being in the very last row".
but you specifically stated that all movie theaters are built with this one specific standard in use.
No, I specifically stated that 1080 HDTV replicated being in the back row of a theater. Then I rebutted your stupid assertion that no standards exist thus I cannot make such a comparison.
Do you know how many movie theaters there are in the world? Do you really think the world's oldest operational movie theater L'Idéal Cinéma - Jacques Tati built in 1902 uses this standard? What standard's body had been created then? Not the SMPTE. What international law has made this a requirement? Where is your proof? Sounds to me that you heard something whilst working as a teenager from someone that works at a movie theater and then applied that to everything.
I do not need to prove a stupid strawman you provide.
I provided links to actual standards you claimed don't exist.
I notice that you have no data to support anything you state as "fact".
Nice ad hom there. You don't know what I do or know which is why I provide links to the underlying data for smart people to look at and for you to ignore.
The perceived image is not the same as the HW designation. An HDTV is still an HDTV regardless of where the viewer is.
The HDTV specification has a designed seating distance calculated as a function of screen height. This number is also expressed as HVA since the numbers are directly related. The 1080 number was not randomly chosen. It based on the NHK studies on high definition and based on both human visual acuity and threshold studies on when you get a "sense of reality" from the image.
This is true also of 4K systems. The numbers were not picked out of thin air but developed to meet the desire to induce a higher feeling of reality when viewing images.
"The psychological effect of widening the visual angle usually appears as an increase in the sensa- tion of presence or immersion in the image. These effects have been studied when designing new TV systems; in fact, they were studied in the early stages of HDTV development"
This paper answers to a great degree Marvin's question as to when enough is enough. It's pretty excessive (22.2 audio?) but it's based on the limits of human perception. Amazingly there is science behind the marketing.
WTF?! What isn't built to a minimum set of specifications? What defines minimum is what sets junk and quality apart.
Your ignorance is showing. The NHK studies provided a range of resolutions and viewing angles of which 1080, 4K and 8K are part of the results (along with frequency, color, bit depth, etc) and these were submitted to standards bodies. The minimum resolution and viewing angle was selected as the first step of achieving a higher sense of reality and this is known as the HDTV spec (1080).
Hence the current HDTV specification details 1920x1080 resolution with 30 degrees HVA as the standard and not some other numbers. It was the minimum set of numbers to meet "high definition" video.
In comparison to 8K video, 1080 is indeed junk...if you sit close enough anyway. Even then there are studies that show that we are aware of objects well below that 60 PPD rule of thumb. So 60 PPD is also a minimum specification. Human visual acuity is actually much better even on average.
So now it's no longer a requirement for the world's theaters regardless of how old they are but a standard by the organizations that we all know about which means you've changed you tune again to agree with my original comment.
It is interesting that when you say you didn't say something I provide a quote where you actually said that something.
It is equally interesting that when you say I said something that you cannot provide a quote where I actually said that but I can provide a quote where I actually said something different and not what you claim.
Again, these are standards that you claim did not exist. Not requirements or laws like fire codes or something but standardizations from which my generalization could be made.
If you wish to be able to say in your marketing literature that you are a THX theater then they do actually become requirements.
The easiest and most mature path was to simply say "Oh, there are standards, my bad". Instead you argue against information that supports your position out of some wierdo desire to "win" an internet argument.
To recap, you stated, "1080p is "retina" with 30 degrees horizontal FOV to replicate the movie theater experience in the VERY last row."to which I responded saying that there is no law requires that all movie theater back row be the same distance from a relative screen size. You said there was and despite my efforts to get you to actually mention at least one standards body you didn't until this post to which I am replying.
Actually, it's beyond the last row in theaters that meet THX and SMPTE recommendations, it's been a while since I looked at them.
But yes, that's what viewing 1080 HDTV is like as a frame of reference for Marvin. It indicates that some folks do want a higher degree of immersion than what current HDTVs are capable of. This is offset by the eye fatigue at closer distances and the comfort level of being so close to the screen.
You did not say there was no law, you said there were no standards. See the above where I quoted you again and I provided those standards right in that next post.
Are you living in some kind of alternate reality where posts are not preserved? Because the thread history here is clear for all to see. I suppose you can go back and edit them if you like.
Edit: In the previous version I said I used the words "is like" when instead I used the word "replicates". Changes to reflect my actual word choice. Can't very well bang on Soli for poor word choice without acknowledging the words I actually use as well.
Edited by nht - 4/10/13 at 7:56am