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Consolidation in struggling PC market considered 'inevitable' as sales plummet - Page 2

post #41 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

It's another way of saying "it's difficult to compare things that have absolutely nothing to do with one another."

 

While small televisions can, by definition, never get bigger, the iPad will certainly become as powerful as any individual could need from a computing device.

Sure they do. It has to do with screen size. The reason I prefer a large screen iMac is because it is a better user experience. I don't have to zoom/pan to see the contents of a web page.

 

A tiny wooden stool is just as pleasant of an experience to sit on as an overstuffed couch with an ottoman. /s

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post #42 of 67
Originally Posted by mstone View Post
Sure they do. It has to do with screen size. The reason I prefer a large screen iMac is because it is a better user experience.

 

 

How is something that cannot be used with one hand shoehorned into a product category designed to be used with one hand a "better" experience? 

 

You're still missing the dissimilarity here. You don't have to pan on an iPad and you don't "see more" with a larger TV. In fact, unless the resolution goes up, it's a worse user experience.


A tiny wooden stool is just as pleasant of an experience to sit on as an overstuffed couch with an ottoman. /s

 

And there's a third completely incomparable analogy…

post #43 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

How is something that cannot be used with one hand shoehorned into a product category designed to be used with one hand a "better" experience? 

 

Do you not have another hand? What are you doing with the other hand?  What about when you hold the iPad? How many hands are you using? One hand...yeah, right. Yep, that is the differentiation between an iPad and a desktop alright. /s

 

The iPad has only one advantage - it is portable. In every other regard it is less capable than its desktop counterpart with perhaps the the exception that it can be easier for very young children whose coordination skills have not yet fully developed but in general it has less ergonomic practicality and ease of use is compromised due to its form factor.

 

The analogies are that computing on a little screen is not as pleasant of an experience as computing on a larger screen which is why trying to do any computing task on an iPhone is much more difficult than doing it on an iPad and in both cases is more difficult than doing the computing task on an iMac. At a certain point there is no additional advantage to having a larger screen for a computer, or a home TV for that matter but 27-30" is a very nice size for a computer screen in my opinion. 10" not so much.

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post #44 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post


 

The iPad has only one advantage - it is portable. In every other regard it is less capable than its desktop counterpart with perhaps the the exception that it can be easier for very young children whose coordination skills have not yet fully developed but in general it has less ergonomic practicality and ease of use is compromised due to its form factor.

I think the portability is a big selling point for content consumption. It's about what you have with you. People used camera phones even when they were terrible because the phone was with them the vast majority of the time. I do not see the demise of desktop displays in upcoming years. If margins continue to shrink, you'll likely see greater reuse of panel designs across different products. 16:9 was already brought on by reusing television panels and LG is in practically everything. For times when you need to work on something for an extended period of time, tablets aren't very good. Notebooks are pretty bad too. The ergonomics aren't really there.

post #45 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

What's "uncomfortable" is the walled garden approaches that kills off abilities that power users want and expect from a computing device. The need to hack a system to jailbreak to get functionality you would normally find on a full-fledged computer is not sitting right with me or many others.

Give me full access to the system on iOS, just like on OS X -- make it an option! iOS devices COULD be SO much more than they are today if Apple opened them up!

So, need to tell the larger group of others that are OK with the "walled garden".   This is the false belief that most people have issues with.  "If I think like this, there are a bunch others that do as well".  Well, not so many.  What Steve Jobs said was that the PC as it stands would still be there for those that want or need it but that for most of the consumers, they don't care.  You will still have your OS X flavor of computer but to think that that will go away and be completely replaced by a tablet and that the table will be your OS X environment is really misguided.

post #46 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

 

Do you not have another hand? What are you doing with the other hand?  What about when you hold the iPad? How many hands are you using? One hand...yeah, right. Yep, that is the differentiation between an iPad and a desktop alright. /s

 

The iPad has only one advantage - it is portable. In every other regard it is less capable than its desktop counterpart with perhaps the the exception that it can be easier for very young children whose coordination skills have not yet fully developed but in general it has less ergonomic practicality and ease of use is compromised due to its form factor.

 

The analogies are that computing on a little screen is not as pleasant of an experience as computing on a larger screen which is why trying to do any computing task on an iPhone is much more difficult than doing it on an iPad and in both cases is more difficult than doing the computing task on an iMac. At a certain point there is no additional advantage to having a larger screen for a computer, or a home TV for that matter but 27-30" is a very nice size for a computer screen in my opinion. 10" not so much.

Here's a thought.  Just how much "computing" is done by most of the people who own PCs?   Even my laptop at work is a glorified terminal as most of the "computing" is done on a build server which has the power and the economies of scale.  Most consumers use their devices to browse the web and read email.  There's not much heavy "computing" going on.  That's why smart phones and tables rule the day and PC based machines are in decline.   It's not fiction, it is happening.

post #47 of 67

Anecdotal, I know, but when I had my MB, iPad and iPhone. I basically stopped carrying my MB. In fact, I sold it and used my iPad and iPhone pretty much 90% of the time. Very mobile.

 

I still have my orig. intel 20" iMac for "heavy lifting!" But I'm actually using it less and less, too.

 

 

 

I sold my iPad and am using my iPhone and iMac now. Not ideal, but OK.

 

I'm waiting for the next iteration of the iPad Mini and will upgrade my iP4s in Oct.

 

I would love it to be all I need (plus a TimeCapsule and an ATV).

 

An iPad Mini and iP5s. No desktop or laptop at all!

 

I think that is certainly where we're heading. But we're just not there yet.

 

 

Like many here, I find it hard not to have a large desktop (iMac) at home to hold all my photos, music, etc.

 

Perhaps this next cycle I will have to upgrade to the new 27" iMac or maybe just an MBA. 

post #48 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by sambira View Post

Here's a thought.  Just how much "computing" is done by most of the people who own PCs?   Even my laptop at work is a glorified terminal as most of the "computing" is done on a build server which has the power and the economies of scale.  Most consumers use their devices to browse the web and read email.  There's not much heavy "computing" going on.  That's why smart phones and tables rule the day and PC based machines are in decline.   It's not fiction, it is happening.

When it supports their argument people claim, the iPad is a powerful computing device that replaces traditional computers, however, when confronted with its limited capabilities, the argument shifts to most people don't need a powerful computing device.

 

Perhaps I just don't know how to do this on an iPad, but a few minutes ago I wanted to search a long government html document for a particular word. I can't seem to locate the find in document input box using mobile Safari. Can anyone help me out?

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post #49 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sambira View Post

Here's a thought.  Just how much "computing" is done by most of the people who own PCs?   Even my laptop at work is a glorified terminal as most of the "computing" is done on a build server which has the power and the economies of scale.  Most consumers use their devices to browse the web and read email.  There's not much heavy "computing" going on.  That's why smart phones and tables rule the day and PC based machines are in decline.   It's not fiction, it is happening.
When it supports their argument people claim, the iPad is a powerful computing device that replaces traditional computers, however, when confronted with its limited capabilities, the argument shifts to most people don't need a powerful computing device.

Perhaps I just don't know how to do this on an iPad, but a few minutes ago I wanted to search a long government html document for a particular word. I can't seem to locate the find in document input box using mobile Safari. Can anyone help me out?

Just tap the search box in the upper right-hand corner of mobile Safari.

The search box will be highlighted and a drop-down of recent searches will be shown below it, Below that is the keyboard layout with another search box labeled "Find on Page".

Have at it!
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post #50 of 67

I don't get this whole "the desktop has a future because I like big displays" argument. Hook a big display up to a tablet and have both. A big display is an accessory. This is also why "tablets are for content consumption" is completely back-to-front. Big displays are for content consumption. Even professionals who insist on big displays are usually using them for "content consumption" (i.e., displaying documentation alongside an IDE). Tablets are for interaction. Touch is a better and more direct interaction method than the (indirect) mouse or trackpad. That's why tablets are rapidly replacing PCs. The mouse/trackpad was a kludge because we didn't have touch. The laptop is a compromised form factor because we didn't have touch. The desktop has been irrelevant for years already. It's amusing that people are still maintaining the tablet can't rival PCs while the entire PC market is crashing.

post #51 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

When it supports their argument people claim, the iPad is a powerful computing device that replaces traditional computers, however, when confronted with its limited capabilities, the argument shifts to most people don't need a powerful computing device.

 

Perhaps I just don't know how to do this on an iPad, but a few minutes ago I wanted to search a long government html document for a particular word. I can't seem to locate the find in document input box using mobile Safari. Can anyone help me out?

 

I hate safari.

post #52 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

PCs: "more than half of the industry profits despite 10 percent share"
Phones: 3/4 of industry profits despite 20 percent share
Tablets: virtually all industry profits despite 60 percent share

The law of diminishing returns! Apple is doomed!!

Must follow Samsung, HP and seek higher share, lower profits, or will be forced to follow the history of Blackberry and Nokia in falling from success at the hands of the next Apple!!!

Sell, folks. Apple is success-toast. There's no way for it to outperform every industry it participates in greater than it already has, because no company like Apple has ever existed before, and therefore can't. New things simply don't happen.

Expect Windows 9 to rapidly turn things around in 2015. And before that, two more releases of Android, including Lemon Lime Soda Flavored Sorbet, with PowerWidgets that flash glittering rainbows with infrared advertising.

 

I expect anti-monopoly legislation soon as Apple is forced to make their products "less good"
post #53 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke View Post

I don't get this whole "the desktop has a future because I like big displays" argument. Hook a big display up to a tablet and have both. A big display is an accessory. This is also why "tablets are for content consumption" is completely back-to-front. Big displays are for content consumption. Even professionals who insist on big displays are usually using them for "content consumption" (i.e., displaying documentation alongside an IDE). Tablets are for interaction. Touch is a better and more direct interaction method than the (indirect) mouse or trackpad. That's why tablets are rapidly replacing PCs. The mouse/trackpad was a kludge because we didn't have touch. The laptop is a compromised form factor because we didn't have touch. The desktop has been irrelevant for years already. It's amusing that people are still maintaining the tablet can't rival PCs while the entire PC market is crashing.

 

No. No. No. Content creators are NOT using tablets and many of them need that larger monitor over a laptop -- not just because the desktop has more power. Editing video on a laptop is very cramped. 3D designers, spreadsheets, desktop publishing -- there are many crafts that require more screen real estate.

 

It's just that content creators are NOT a large part of the market, as desktop and laptop distributors would like to believe. The people who "DO" are not enough to prop up the market. Which is going to be frustrating as the access to desktops shrinks.
post #54 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke View Post

I don't get this whole "the desktop has a future because I like big displays" argument. Hook a big display up to a tablet and have both. A big display is an accessory. This is also why "tablets are for content consumption" is completely back-to-front. Big displays are for content consumption. Even professionals who insist on big displays are usually using them for "content consumption" (i.e., displaying documentation alongside an IDE). Tablets are for interaction. Touch is a better and more direct interaction method than the (indirect) mouse or trackpad. That's why tablets are rapidly replacing PCs. The mouse/trackpad was a kludge because we didn't have touch. The laptop is a compromised form factor because we didn't have touch. The desktop has been irrelevant for years already. It's amusing that people are still maintaining the tablet can't rival PCs while the entire PC market is crashing.

You're being a tad hyperbolic don't you think?

Like @mstone. many of us learned "to drive" using "trucks" instead of "cars" -- trucks were the only thing available -- had the power we needed -- were configurable to meet our needs -- when they broke we could fix them (or work around the problems)... We were, and still are, comfortable driving trucks...

And for some purposes trucks are better than cars -- hauling supplies or refuse or a boat (and a car)...

Enough with the analogies... you get the drill!


I do things like [home personal] video editing on a maxed-out iMac 27" with an attached 23" external Monitor. What I do with this configuration, I cannot accomplish on an iPad.

At the same time, I have my loaded iPad 4 sitting beside the iMac (next to the keyboard, in front of the external monitor).

There are things I can do on the iPad that I cannot do as well or as easily on the iMac... And I can take my work with me to the couch, bedroom or the middle of a soccer field.

I can justify use of both paradigms -- others may choose one, the other or both. This doesn't make me right and them wrong -- just different strokes.


Since you used the big display to illustrate how some people differentiate a [power] desktop computer from an [appliance] iPad -- let me describe a power desktop computer from a few years back.


Among other things, this computer was used for power number-crunching by major corporations.

The power app that made this possible was Microsoft Excel.

The power computer that made this possible was the original Mac... the year was 1985, and here are the specs of that [power desktop] Mac computer:




It is interesting to note the display size of that power desktop computer of yesteryear...


The original iPad is superior in almost every way (hardware, OS and software) to that Mac. (Except for screen size, the iPhone is superior, too).


Oddly enough, I cannot run Excel on the superior iPad.

I can run Apple Numbers on the iPad -- but it does not have all the features found in the Mac version.


I have a Numbers spreadsheet that requires Table Categories. I want all members of our household to use this! Each has his own personal iPad. But the Table Categories "feature" is not available on iOS Numbers...

So, each of us, in turn must use an iMac on the desktop.


Spoken from the real world, by an [over] enthusiastic iPad advocate... nay evangelist.
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post #55 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Oddly enough, I cannot run Excel on the superior iPad.

I can run Apple Numbers on the iPad -- but it does not have all the features found in the Mac version.


I have a Numbers spreadsheet that requires Table Categories. I want all members of our household to use this! Each has his own personal iPad. But the Table Categories "feature" is not available on iOS Numbers...

So, each of us, in turn must use an iMac on the desktop.


Spoken from the real world, by an [over] enthusiastic iPad advocate... nay evangelist.

 

Have you tried any of the cloud based Office suites like Google Docs or MS' Office in the cloud?  They should run on an iPad browser, no?  

 

(BTW, I'm a huge desktop/laptop advocate, but I also do alot of programming)

post #56 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Just tap the search box in the upper right-hand corner of mobile Safari.

The search box will be highlighted and a drop-down of recent searches will be shown below it, Below that is the keyboard layout with another search box labeled "Find on Page".

Have at it!

Thanks. It is always the last place you look.

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post #57 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke View Post

I don't get this whole "the desktop has a future because I like big displays" argument. Hook a big display up to a tablet and have both. 

Fortunately I can afford all of Apple's form factors so I have my choice of devices. I have always said that you should choose the right tool for the job.

 

I am curious if you could choose only one other computing device besides your iPhone, which would it be?

 

I know I would choose my 15" rMBP because it can do everything plus it is mobile. Of course I would miss the big screen of my desktop but since I can only choose one that is what it would be.

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post #58 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by poke View Post

I don't get this whole "the desktop has a future because I like big displays" argument. Hook a big display up to a tablet and have both. A big display is an accessory. This is also why "tablets are for content consumption" is completely back-to-front. Big displays are for content consumption. Even professionals who insist on big displays are usually using them for "content consumption" (i.e., displaying documentation alongside an IDE). Tablets are for interaction. Touch is a better and more direct interaction method than the (indirect) mouse or trackpad. That's why tablets are rapidly replacing PCs. The mouse/trackpad was a kludge because we didn't have touch. The laptop is a compromised form factor because we didn't have touch. The desktop has been irrelevant for years already. It's amusing that people are still maintaining the tablet can't rival PCs while the entire PC market is crashing.

No. No. No. Content creators are NOT using tablets and many of them need that larger monitor over a laptop -- not just because the desktop has more power. Editing video on a laptop is very cramped. 3D designers, spreadsheets, desktop publishing -- there are many crafts that require more screen real estate.

It's just that content creators are NOT a large part of the market, as desktop and laptop distributors would like to believe. The people who "DO" are not enough to prop up the market. Which is going to be frustrating as the access to desktops shrinks.

I agree with most of what you say...

But I believe content creators do use iPads... and will do so to an increasing extent as the device matures to fulfill its manifest destiny.

For video creation, currently, there are ancillary iPad apps for things like scripts, storyboarding, clapboards, etc.

Also, there are basic "video editing" iPad apps By Adobe, Apple and Avid:

And, no less an enterprise than Light Iron, has created speciality iPad apps to participate in post process:

http://www.lightiron.com/products


I have seen (but cannot recall where) examples of iPads being used to capture news events or sports highlights


This is a bit dated (2011) but it may be more applicable today than in 2011. I have a friend who is an executive for a major broadcast network. I asked my friend how FCPX would be used in their network (emphasis mine):

Quote:
FCP is actually a powerful program but I still think iMovie does the job for most less than 10 minutes productions. Its real value is revealed when using After Effects or Motion, integrated tight in the production. Content is still king and video 'direction' makes a video look pro... not really the 'editing' tools in most cases.

If you ever travel to NY I would love to give you a tour of some of the edit suites and see how the product is integrated in the workflow. FCP is not the main edit tool, however as a FCP fan you will see its value when connected to graphic virtual sets and tapeless video ingest servers. Pretty amazing in capable hands. But you will also see how simple on & off-line systems (equiv. to iMovie) does the bulk of the work.


I agree that a laptop with an external display is adequate for many video editing needs especially smaller projects and demos. More robust hardware (CPU, GPU, RAM, Storage) is required for larger jobs...

This does not, necessarily, eliminate the iPad. I suspect that Apple's next "pro" hardware offering will be modular "boxes" interconnected by Thunderbolt (1 and 2). These "boxes" can be added (or removed) as needed to match the processing power to the job at hand. E.G., a 4K edit might require extra GPU/Video RM boxes and extra storage boxes.

I believe, that somewhere(s) in this process will be multitouch tablet devices -- maybe not doing the actual "heavy lifting" but providing a UI that allows the editor to get what he wants by getting his hands dirty.
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post #59 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Oddly enough, I cannot run Excel on the superior iPad.


I can run Apple Numbers on the iPad -- but it does not have all the features found in the Mac version.



I have a Numbers spreadsheet that requires Table Categories. I want all members of our household to use this! Each has his own personal iPad. But the Table Categories "feature" is not available on iOS Numbers...


So, each of us, in turn must use an iMac on the desktop.



Spoken from the real world, by an [over] enthusiastic iPad advocate... nay evangelist.

Have you tried any of the cloud based Office suites like Google Docs or MS' Office in the cloud?  They should run on an iPad browser, no?  

(BTW, I'm a huge desktop/laptop advocate, but I also do alot of programming)

We have not tried any of the cloud-based Office suites... We have no MS Office apps on any of our Macs -- iWork (OSX) is adequate for our needs.

The Numbers "categories" feature is similar to "pivot tables" in Excel... so I suppose it could work online...

I hope that Apple will add feature parity between OSX and iOS iWork Apps in the near future.


Programming... there isn't an app for that! On the device for the device... sigh! I think this was the biggest issue Alan Kay had when he recently expressed disappointment that the iPad did not live up to the ideals of DynaBook.

I agree that it needs to be provided!
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post #60 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke View Post

I don't get this whole "the desktop has a future because I like big displays" argument. Hook a big display up to a tablet and have both. A big display is an accessory. This is also why "tablets are for content consumption" is completely back-to-front. Big displays are for content consumption. Even professionals who insist on big displays are usually using them for "content consumption" (i.e., displaying documentation alongside an IDE). Tablets are for interaction. Touch is a better and more direct interaction method than the (indirect) mouse or trackpad. That's why tablets are rapidly replacing PCs. The mouse/trackpad was a kludge because we didn't have touch. The laptop is a compromised form factor because we didn't have touch. The desktop has been irrelevant for years already. It's amusing that people are still maintaining the tablet can't rival PCs while the entire PC market is crashing.


It's okay if you've never done that kind of work before. It gets to a point with peripheral devices where you're basically restricted to one spot either way. Notebook keyboards are nowhere near as comfortable, so I prefer a full sized keyboard, although I like the slim ones Apple uses today over the older styles. Add in a couple displays, wide format printer, NAS, large graphics tablet, and other random items, and it's no longer a go anywhere solution regardless of what of base machine you hook up. You also misinterpret the concept of crashing somewhat. The PC market is primarily crashing from the bottom up rather than the top down. The desktop as a budget PC may be a thing of the past, but we aren't to the point where there is no stratification in performance. Some of the higher margin items will survive for many years. It's just the enormous vendors like Dell and HP are highly dependent on sales volume, especially with the commoditization of the server market where some larger companies like Google directly contract ODMs for their server needs. On a side note, I would really enjoy a large touch screen with a solid base that allows for it to be angled comfortably. Wacom makes something like that, but they have too many flawed hardware designs.

post #61 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

Notebook keyboards are nowhere near as comfortable, so I prefer a full sized keyboard, although I like the slim ones Apple uses today over the older styles. 

 

Guess you've never used a ThinkPad keyboard before...

post #62 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

What's "uncomfortable" is the walled garden approaches that kills off abilities that power users want and expect from a computing device. The need to hack a system to jailbreak to get functionality you would normally find on a full-fledged computer is not sitting right with me or many others.

Give me full access to the system on iOS, just like on OS X -- make it an option! iOS devices COULD be SO much more than they are today if Apple opened them up!

 

You speak for a slim thin segment of few users. The new world order micturates on your pitiful petition.

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post #63 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


You're being a tad hyperbolic don't you think?

 

Not really. We're talking about whether tablets can replace desktops in principle, not the current practical issues keeping this or that person from switching to a tablet (i.e., lack of power, lack of certain apps, lack of certain OS features, etc). Personally I think the trucks and cars analogy is wrong. It's more like the transition from the tiller to the steering wheel. Nobody steers their car (or truck) with a tiller anymore because a steering wheel is a much more natural method of control. I think this transition from PCs to tablets is happening as fast as it is because touch is a much more natural input method. The mouse/trackpad is essentially a broken form of touch; you touch somewhere else to position a pointer that stands in for your finger and then press a button on the mouse/trackpad to press an onscreen button rather than simply pressing the onscreen button directly. There are kids growing up with touch-based smartphones and tablets today who will think of the mouse/trackpad as antiquated and silly, like the rotary phone or steering a car with a tiller. The notion that anyone could have thought of it as a "power user" feature will seem absurd.

 

The thing about large displays is that, while the display area can be very large due to the nature of vision (i.e., visual acuity, how you can move your head, etc), the size of a given interaction area is limited by your hands. Moreover, most of what people want a larger display for is passive. You want to see the video you're editing, for example. You want multiple views into a data set. You want to see documentation while you work. A tablet could be used to drive a display in such cases, with the editing happening on the tablet UI, and the big display offering additional synchronised views. So I find it unlikely the PCs will continue to stick around as the "trucks" of the computing world because some apps need big displays.

post #64 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

You're being a tad hyperbolic don't you think?

Not really.

...



Below is your original post -- I highlighted the places where you used hyperbole:
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke View Post

I don't get this whole "the desktop has a future because I like big displays" argument. Hook a big display up to a tablet and have both. A big display is an accessory. This is also why "tablets are for content consumption" is completely back-to-front. Big displays are for content consumption. Even professionals who insist on big displays are usually using them for "content consumption" (i.e., displaying documentation alongside an IDE). Tablets are for interaction. Touch is a better and more direct interaction method than the (indirect) mouse or trackpad. That's why tablets are rapidly replacing PCs. The mouse/trackpad was a kludge because we didn't have touch. The laptop is a compromised form factor because we didn't have touch. The desktop has been irrelevant for years already. It's amusing that people are still maintaining the tablet can't rival PCs while the entire PC market is crashing.

What I am referring to is that your statements are so absolute... so exaggerated!

I agree with many of your points -- it's just that you present them as black or white -- while the reality is a lot of gray areas.

It is disingenuous to claim that ' professionals who insist on big displays are usually using them for "content consumption" '. Certainly the person creating or editing a video, spreadsheet, document, etc. needs to see the content they are dealing with... especially for things like before/after comparison, versioning, drag and drop...

I'll respond more completely in a following post.
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"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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post #65 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Since you used the big display to illustrate how some people differentiate a [power] desktop computer from an [appliance] iPad -- let me describe a power desktop computer from a few years back.

Among other things, this computer was used for power number-crunching by major corporations.

The power app that made this possible was Microsoft Excel.

The power computer that made this possible was the original Mac... the year was 1985, and here are the specs of that [power desktop] Mac computer:




It is interesting to note the display size of that power desktop computer of yesteryear...


The original iPad is superior in almost every way (hardware, OS and software) to that Mac. (Except for screen size, the iPhone is superior, too).


Oddly enough, I cannot run Excel on the superior iPad.

I can run Apple Numbers on the iPad -- but it does not have all the features found in the Mac version.


I have a Numbers spreadsheet that requires Table Categories. I want all members of our household to use this! Each has his own personal iPad. But the Table Categories "feature" is not available on iOS Numbers...

So, each of us, in turn must use an iMac on the desktop.


Spoken from the real world, by an [over] enthusiastic iPad advocate... nay evangelist.

 

To nit-pick, the 128K mac could not and did not run Excel, it ran MultiPlan, the forerunner of Excel. Apparently, iOS will get Excel next year. Who's to know whether it will be gimped like the SurfaceRT version of Excel, but I expect both Excel and Numbers for the iPad to develop more capabilities over time, just as Excel did between 1984 and today. 

 

As an old user of the original Mac, I couldn't let this little factoid slip by. I made some pretty good spreadsheet on that little wonder with it's single coffee-grinder drive... RUUU-ruuu, RUUU-ruuu, RUUU-ruuu.

"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #66 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

You're being a tad hyperbolic don't you think?

Not really.

...


The thing about large displays is that, while the display area can be very large due to the nature of vision (i.e., visual acuity, how you can move your head, etc), the size of a given interaction area is limited by your hands. Moreover, most of what people want a larger display for is passive. You want to see the video you're editing, for example. You want multiple views into a data set. You want to see documentation while you work. A tablet could be used to drive a display in such cases, with the editing happening on the tablet UI, and the big display offering additional synchronised views. So I find it unlikely the PCs will continue to stick around as the "trucks" of the computing world because some apps need big displays.

One of the major issues is that most existing apps are not designed for a touch interface.


Below. is a screen shot of FCPX running fullscreen on an iMac 27". I have activated a cursor replacement app (called PhoneFinger) to approximate how one would run this app on a touch screen device. I have small hands and PhoneFinger is scaled to match the size of my finger.

It illustrates several problems:
  • the finger obscures the control or area you are targeting
  • it is difficult to match the "sweet spot" of the finger to the "sweet spot" of the target (even when not fully obscured)
  • there is no granularity -- it would be impossible to select a pixel or a small control.
  • there is no hover/hint capability
  • there are no quick shortcuts analogous to kb shortcuts -- just point and click (and a few variants)

Apologies in advance for the large image -- it illustrates the points.



The finger has highlighted an event in the event library. At the very left is a small triangle twirl-down control -- used to show/hide the contents of that event. Didn't even come close with repeated tries.

It would be equally difficult to use a touch interface on a large spreadsheet, IDE, word-processing document, etc.

To fully understand the problems, I suggest you surf for PhoneFinger and try it on your Mac -- it might change your prospective about what's possible... and what's reality, today and for the next few years.


These problems are not insoluble... but they exist in today's world.


I want to make one more point here. Assume:
  1. we are talking about a Mac running OS X FCPX
  2. the equivalent capabilities (APIs, Frameworks, Codecs) required already exist in iOS
  3. FCPX has been ported to run on an iPad
  4. the touch issues listed above have been resolved.

The iPad does not not have enough power to do the job! At best, the iPad (maybe in a larger screen size) could be the UI to a more powerful [desktop or floor top] computer to do the heavy lifting.

Just some random examples:

A 4K video transmits a Gig of data per second -- that's a little over 2 minutes on the largest iPad.

Most multicam editing is done in ProRes Proxy to allow concurrent display of multiple video streams -- say 9 (angles) to avoid dropping frames on a top-end Mac with top-end CPUs, RAM, GPUs... No way does the iPad have the horses to run in that race.

Rendering the final cut of a video can take days on a maxed-out Mac.

I believe that there will always be power users with requirements above and beyond the appliance user... and they will require more robust hardware.

That said, the appliance user will grow to expect more capability on his device (outgrow iMovie for FCPX, in our example)... and will continue to overlap the territory of the power user.

Who knows, in the near future the appliance user may be able to collaborate with other appliance users to do FCPX editing in the cloud... but some badass computers, somewhere will still be doing the heavy lifting!
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 4/12/13 at 3:53pm
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #67 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Since you used the big display to illustrate how some people differentiate a [power] desktop computer from an [appliance] iPad -- let me describe a power desktop computer from a few years back.


Among other things, this computer was used for power number-crunching by major corporations.


The power app that made this possible was Microsoft Excel.


The power computer that made this possible was the original Mac... the year was 1985, and here are the specs of that [power desktop] Mac computer:





It is interesting to note the display size of that power desktop computer of yesteryear...



The original iPad is superior in almost every way (hardware, OS and software) to that Mac. (Except for screen size, the iPhone is superior, too).



Oddly enough, I cannot run Excel on the superior iPad.


I can run Apple Numbers on the iPad -- but it does not have all the features found in the Mac version.



I have a Numbers spreadsheet that requires Table Categories. I want all members of our household to use this! Each has his own personal iPad. But the Table Categories "feature" is not available on iOS Numbers...


So, each of us, in turn must use an iMac on the desktop.



Spoken from the real world, by an [over] enthusiastic iPad advocate... nay evangelist.

To nit-pick, the 128K mac could not and did not run Excel, it ran MultiPlan, the forerunner of Excel. Apparently, iOS will get Excel next year. Who's to know whether it will be gimped like the SurfaceRT version of Excel, but I expect both Excel and Numbers for the iPad to develop more capabilities over time, just as Excel did between 1984 and today. 

As an old user of the original Mac, I couldn't let this little factoid slip by. I made some pretty good spreadsheet on that little wonder with it's single coffee-grinder drive... RUUU-ruuu, RUUU-ruuu, RUUU-ruuu.

Ha! I was really just testing the readers to see if they knew the 512K requirement... Yeah, Right ... … 1smile.gif

OMG... 512,000 Bytes of RAM... who would ever need that much RAM? VisiCalc only required 48K on the Apple ][.
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
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