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post #41 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I don't believe in "natural predisposition." I believe our bodies are controlled by our minds, and what our minds do depends on what ideas they contain, and that we learn all our ideas from people and books etc, we are not born with any. Since we are not born with any innate ideas, "natural predisposition" is BS.

I also believe that our moral perspective is a function of our ideas, not just our factual perspective. One person can be raised on Jane Austin and another on Mein Kampf. And also, there is no reason to believe that ideas would be uniformly distributed across the world. Why would they be? There are myriad influences, historical and otherwise why people in one part of the world might believe things different to another part. If one village learns something, some new scientific theory, but there is a big mountain between them and the next village, conceivably that idea might never be transmitted.

So given all this (that morality is a function of ideas, and that ideas are not evenly distributed geographically), there is absolutely a valid argument to say that an entire continent of people might have different morals.

In no way are different morals the same thing as no morals. You can take two people and there will be something that each has a different take on regarding right and wrong, but that's not what is being said here. What is clearly being thrown around is that there are nations, a continent, of people whose have no moral compass, people who lack a conscience, and whom all feel the exact same way about it.

Can you honestly say that everyone on your continent hold the exact same values? Of course you can't, and you have done so with Asia which is made up of a vary diverse number of cultures.

I've been around the world and quite frankly I'm always happy to get back to the US. It's not because I think other cultures are wrong but they are too different for me to really feel at home in. I also really like American food, especially the Americanized versions of Chinese and Italian. No one is saying you have to enjoy other cultures but certainly can't be considered objective or fair when you claim that they are wrong and you are right with your "bad by education" hypothesis above.


PS: Have you ever downloaded an illegal song, video, or software in your life? If not, do you others that have? If so, were they all Asian?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #42 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


In no way are different morals the same thing as no morals. You can take two people and there will be something that each has a different take on regarding right and wrong, but that's not what is being said here. What is clearly being thrown around is that there are nations, a continent, of people whose have no moral compass, people who lack a conscience, and whom all feel the exact same way about it.

Can you honestly say that everyone on your continent hold the exact same values? Of course you can't, and you have done so with Asia which is made up of a vary diverse number of cultures.

I've been around the world and quite frankly I'm always happy to get back to the US. It's not because I think other cultures are wrong but they are too different for me to really feel at home in. I also really like American food, especially the Americanized versions of Chinese and Italian. No one is saying you have to enjoy other cultures but certainly can't be considered objective or fair when you claim that they are wrong and you are right with your "bad by education" hypothesis above.


PS: Have you ever downloaded an illegal song, video, or software in your life? If not, do you others that have? If so, were they all Asian?

I don't think the Chinese have no morals, I just think they have different morals, ones that don't place as much value on private property. When you emphasise the group over the individual, as communism does, it's a short step to thinking the individual doesn't have to be compensated by the group for his work, and a short step after that to widespread piracy.

 

Do I think everyone in China has the same values, or anyone in any country? Well, my position is that morals come from ideas. So the diversity of morals depends on the diversity of ideas. And the diversity of ideas depends on things like free speech laws, censorship, access to libraries and computers. So I would say there is probably more moral uniformity over there than in the West, but not total uniformity. From an outsiders perspective, someone who doesn't want their apps nicked, what really matters is the dominant morality. Even though you might have sympathy for the minority who believe in private property, if they have no influence, you have no choice but to not count them in your thinking. If they have 1% influence you count them 1% in your thinking, etc.

 

I personally don't pirate, no. As someone who makes their living selling software it would be self-destructive to encourage that sort of thing. But I'm sure plenty of people of all races pirate software. Piracy is an action, and actions are caused by ideas, and any person of any race can adopt any idea. But that is only a potentiality. In actuality, different ideas dominate in different geographies.

post #43 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I don't think the Chinese have no morals, I just think they have different morals, ones that don't place as much value on private property. When you emphasise the group over the individual, as communism does, it's a short step to thinking the individual doesn't have to be compensated by the group for his work, and a short step after that to widespread piracy.

Do I think everyone in China has the same values, or anyone in any country? Well, my position is that morals come from ideas. So the diversity of morals depends on the diversity of ideas. And the diversity of ideas depends on things like free speech laws, censorship, access to libraries and computers. So I would say there is probably more moral uniformity over there than in the West, but not total uniformity. From an outsiders perspective, someone who doesn't want their apps nicked, what really matters is the dominant morality. Even though you might have sympathy for the minority who believe in private property, if they have no influence, you have no choice but to not count them in your thinking. If they have 1% influence you count them 1% in your thinking, etc.

I personally don't pirate, no. As someone who makes their living selling software it would be self-destructive to encourage that sort of thing. But I'm sure plenty of people of all races pirate software. Piracy is an action, and actions are caused by ideas, and any person of any race can adopt any idea. But that is only a potentiality. In actuality, different ideas dominate in different geographies.

1) Putting different values on things is very, very, very different from the OP saying they have no morals.

2) If these values come from ideas then where did they start? Either with man or you have to say a deity. If with man then you can't deny that man can change how they perceive right and wrong. If you are American would you say you are for slavery? Why not since the nation has a long history of it? Aren't your values part of the idea that culture was founded upon or do you simply alter your values as the culture shifts its values? Does that mean 20 years ago you thought homosexuality was a crime against humanity? Does that mean 40 years ago you thought interracial unions were a crime against humanity? If it's just a collective idea then how does it change? How can two people whom live in the same culture have very different ideas?

3) You can't say that the majority has no concern for private property. It's as foolish (although less hyperbolic) to say that North Koreans have no interest in colourful textiles. Did monstrosity do anything about it when he was in the Asiatic "region" of these morally corrupt people who don't value private property? If so, what did he do? If not, why would automatically assume that anyone else around him wouldn't feel the same way he did? How do separate the people mulling around like him or trying to earn enough money to keep their family alive from those that really have no conscience? The fact is many don't which is why have the bigoted and racist comments that we do. We lump anything that is different from us into one category and then deem us better people for having a shared disdain.

4) You''ve never once grabbed a song from Napster or Limewire years ago?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #44 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I don't believe in "natural predisposition." 

Humans are predisposed to greed, territory, ego and mating. Humans are also social predators.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #45 of 90

X, here you go again. “The OP said”, “bigots around here are saying”, “you said” - always tediously nitpicking around the same - often willfully misinterpreted - idea. Ah, X, you’re doing a yeoman’s job of living up to Churchill’s description of a fanatic (as quoted by an earlier poster) as "one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject". Move on, my boy, move on. Indeed, I wonder whether your day job is being a big Occupational Therapist for bigots? For then, you too might be termed a BigOT.


Edited by gbdoc - 4/19/13 at 11:25am
post #46 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

Sex: Metrosexual (I also live in a city)

Heterosexuals are attracted to women and Homosexuals are attracted to men and Metrosexuals are attracted to... cities? :)

 

Salons.  lol.gif

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

  MA497LL/A FB463LL/A MC572LL/A FC060LL/A MD481LL/A MD388LL/A ME344LL/A

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   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

  MA497LL/A FB463LL/A MC572LL/A FC060LL/A MD481LL/A MD388LL/A ME344LL/A

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post #47 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plagen View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
 
And all Brits can't read? Where did I say "all".?

And yes, obesity in the US is a common and well recognized problem and nobody is ashamed of discussing it and looking for a solution.

 

There is no solution. Looking at the stats, it's just getting worse every year. htp:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States

Blame the junk food industry and the sedentary lifestyle.  A good portion of Medicare money goes to obesity related problems.

post #48 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipen View Post

 

There is no solution. Looking at the stats, it's just getting worse every year. htp:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States

Blame the junk food industry and the sedentary lifestyle.  A good portion of Medicare money goes to obesity related problems.

 

There is a solution - tell people to eat less shitty food, and drink less sugary beverages.  And while they're at it, teach them what a raw vegetable looks like, how to cook it, and why it's better than a battered, fried, frozen piece of shit that fat people seemingly love to eat.  

 

You can't blame industry, they respond to demand.  Blame people who are too stupid to take proper care of themselves...

post #49 of 90
I always think it is funny to see these debates.
 
Rarely does anybody acknowledge that most western ethics are based on Judeo-Christian values.  Religious or not now, that is where our laws and values originate from.  Like it or not.
 
Why is anybody shocked that cultures not based on Judeo-Christian ethics.....have different ethics?  Asia certainly fits here.
 
I don't see anything wrong or offensive about acknowledging that different cultures....are different cultures.  The part that causes friction is when one culture judges another by their own standard.
 
It is just as silly to defend another culture as to attack it.....using a foreign set of ethics.
 
Clearly piracy is a big issue in China, and at a higher level than end consumers wanting stuff and not paying for it.  
 
I recall a news expose about a huge Levi Strauss factory in China.  It was massive, turning out massive amount of products that were exactly the same quality to the untrained eye as the US made products.
 
But Levi owned no factories in China at the time.  All of the employees on the floor there thought they worked for Levi.  Their paychecks said Levi.  The uniforms said Levi.  All of the signage on the facility said Levi.  Looked 100% legit.  That is a different level of piracy.  
 
In the same report, journalists could buy Windows 98 on the street for $1.  This was not a home made dupe.  It looked exactly like a legit copy, with exactly the same packaging, security hologram, everything.  It was obviously high level industrial piracy.  Did you ever notice that Microsoft Software is made in Mexico?  Just my opinion, but I suspect they feel they have more control there than China or other parts of the world, where it could be catastrophic for them if their own factories became the source of massive piracy.
 
The fact that these blatant, industrial scale piracy efforts existed even then (this was perhaps 15 years ago), proves this is not a new or unique issue.  Facts are facts.  Don't delude yourself just to be politically correct.  This is a real issue.
post #50 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


2) If these values come from ideas then where did they start? Either with man or you have to say a deity. If with man then you can't deny that man can change how they perceive right and wrong. If you are American would you say you are for slavery? Why not since the nation has a long history of it? Aren't your values part of the idea that culture was founded upon or do you simply alter your values as the culture shifts its values? Does that mean 20 years ago you thought homosexuality was a crime against humanity? Does that mean 40 years ago you thought interracial unions were a crime against humanity? If it's just a collective idea then how does it change? How can two people whom live in the same culture have very different ideas?

Those are all very interesting questions: where values come from and how they evolve. But it's getting a bit OT, I merely wanted to make the point that you can think skin colour is irrelevant and racism is stupid (as I do) and still acknowledge that values vary from place to place.

 

And no, I never took a single song from Napster or Limewire. I hardly ever listen to music, my iTunes Library has *one* album loaded in it at the moment, a old Mozart album from the 90s.

post #51 of 90
To abideworldwide
Haha just stop blaming the Asian or even china or Korea. You may not know many tourists including people from so called more civilised or more educated countries (US etc), these people are always looking for privacy or counterfeit goods when they visiting China. So if you say the people from Asia have no conscience about stealing someone else's property, so do the Westerners. But why always blaming Asian or even China? It's just the people in Asia have that intelligent to make these stuffs. Rationally speaking, Everyone love free stuffs, but just the people don't know where to get it from. And I guess many of you guys who using iPhone that has jail broken and probably installed a lot of pirate apps and I don't think that is just only the Asians. And don't forget the guy who invented jailbreak is not an Asian! And samsung, yea may be they are copying from Apple, but so what?! they are making a lot of profit right now, who gives a monkey, really, that is the business world. If apple does not take a step forward, apple gonna lose this battle. Besides, before u saying samsung it's copying, pls look at the latest flagship phone S4, this is called innovation. 1tongue.gif

And something outside the topic:
U know US or even the global economy would have totally collapsed already in the financial crisis in 2008 without the help of China. You would have lost ur job already and not able to buy a new iPhone. Haha.
Im not saying china is a hero or whatsoever. Yes, China is still kind of corrupted, but every country has their own problems, isn't it?

So Please give some respect.

Ps: I'm a Chinese. Insult me pls 1tongue.gif
post #52 of 90
Originally Posted by wapoo View Post
Haha just stop blaming the Asian or even china or Korea.

 

Piracy of content and theft of intellectual property has a higher percentage of occurrence in these countries. We say not that it is a "racial" trait but rather a present cultural difference. There's no denying that. 


…many tourists… …are always looking for privacy or counterfeit goods when they visiting China.

 

This isn't a rebuttal to the argument. It doesn't excuse the piracy being undertaken.


It's just the people in Asia have that intelligent to make these stuffs.

 

Were they intelligent, they'd create their own rather than having to steal others'. Food for thought.


And I guess many of you guys who using iPhone that has jail broken and probably installed a lot of pirate apps…

 

Jailbreaking does not imply piracy, and I'm told that piracy also does not even imply jailbreaking, depending on how it's done (but maybe those were shut down…)


And don't forget the guy who invented jailbreak is not an Asian!

 

Jailbreaking also is NOT piracy in and of itself. I'm not sure why you think that.


And samsung, yea may be they are copying from Apple, but so what?!

 

See, this is the ENTIRE ARGUMENT. "So what" is not a valid rebuttal. It makes you look outrageously foolish.


…they are making a lot of profit right now, who gives a monkey, really…

 

THAT they are profiting from their crimes is the PRIMARY POINT of the argument. How do you not comprehend this?


…that is the business world.

 

Perhaps in China.

 

The wink emoji is implied, but the statement remains wholly serious.


If apple does not take a step forward, apple gonna lose this battle.

 

Standard troll nonsense. "Apple is losing" without EVER defining how this is occurring.


…S4, this is called innovation.

 

12:26 A.M. EST (Yeah, I know it's EDT. Screw DST.), Saturday, April 20. This is the dumbest statement that will be made today.

 

Also, you've given me the best laugh I'll probably have this next week.


U know US or even the global economy would have totally collapsed already in the financial crisis in 2008 without the help of China.

 

I'll ask that none of our PO regulars tear this apart and derail the thread, but I'll step in to say that you ALMOST topped your very last sentence with this one. It's just. plain. asinine. You could not be further from the truth here in any respect.


Ps: I'm a Chinese.

 

I don't know what you're being force-fed over there, but it's not indicative of reality.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

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post #53 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Piracy of content and theft of intellectual property has a higher percentage of occurrence in these countries. We say not that it is a "racial" trait but rather a present cultural difference. There's no denying that. 

This isn't a rebuttal to the argument. It doesn't excuse the piracy being undertaken.

Were they intelligent, they'd create their own rather than having to steal others'. Food for thought.

Jailbreaking does not imply piracy, and I'm told that piracy also does not even imply jailbreaking, depending on how it's done (but maybe those were shut down…)

Jailbreaking also is NOT piracy in and of itself. I'm not sure why you think that.

See, this is the ENTIRE ARGUMENT. "So what" is not a valid rebuttal. It makes you look outrageously foolish.

THAT they are profiting from their crimes is the PRIMARY POINT of the argument. How do you not comprehend this?

Perhaps in China.

The wink emoji is implied, but the statement remains wholly serious.

Standard troll nonsense. "Apple is losing" without EVER defining how this is occurring.

12:26 A.M. EST (Yeah, I know it's EDT. Screw DST.), Saturday, April 20. This is the dumbest statement that will be made today.

Also, you've given me the best laugh I'll probably have this next week.

I'll ask that none of our PO regulars tear this apart and derail the thread, but I'll step in to say that you ALMOST topped your very last sentence with this one. It's just. plain. asinine. You could not be further from the truth here in any respect.

I don't know what you're being force-fed over there, but it's not indicative of reality.

Based on ur reply, can I say there is a higher percentage of occurrence that US people has no respect to the Chinese? Theres no denying that. LOL it's ok, not ur fault, it's the public media. Its the media always love to exaggerate the bad side or the corrupted side of their competitors (samsung)or countries(Korea or china), and praising their own country or enterprise. That's politics and all countries do the same anyway.
I'm not trying to start a fight here so I am not gonna reply u word by word. I just want to let u know the primary point is not what i wrote in the first part of my response; its just a very naive fight back (sorrie 1tongue.gif) to all the ignorants who always against every single thing of Asia. I am not denying what u said and in fact u r right in some points. However every single company or country has their own mistakes; Samsung is not the best company, so does Apple; and who knows if apple had copied any ideas of other company or not. Windows copied Apple 20 years ago. Both are US companies, so is it fair to make a judgement saying the majority Americans are thieves? I don't think you would be happy when people has stereotyped Americans are Bossy , FAT and no respect, right?
As I said in my second part of the response ( I don't think u have quoted it): Pls RESPECT for other people when you writing anything on the Internet.
And I really encourage u to read around and explore the world, also try to appreciate and respect other people of different cultures (not just the dark side of them) And if my stupidity and foolishness has given you the greatest laugh of the day, it's my pleasure 1tongue.gif <- wink implied, but still serious

And I apologise if my Chinglish has misleaded u the PRIMARY POINT of my argument from my previous post.

Oh one more thing regarding to my financial crisis statement. Im sorry, but its too difficult to explain the global economic situation right here, besides that would be out of topic and i probably get banned from this forum and get deleted. but I could refer you to get a copy of the economist and study what is actually going on in this economy right now.

Peace
Edited by wapoo - 4/20/13 at 7:33am
post #54 of 90
Originally Posted by wapoo View Post
I don't think you would be happy when people has stereotyped Americans are Bossy , FAT and no respect, right?

 

As the majority of us ARE overweight, you can say that. It's not a stereotype at that point; it's fact. And as the majority of East Asian companies (well, and people, given the endemic nature of piracy) take their ideas from others, it's not a stereotype, either.

 

Bossy I've not heard about us. If anyone's bossy, it's members of the Eurozone. lol.gif


And I really encourage u to read around and explore the world, also try to appreciate and respect other people of different cultures…

 

This couldn't be truer. Absolutely. And regardless of how we find the information that is presented, I can speak for all of us when I say that we welcome the input and viewpoints of people worldwide.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #55 of 90
First, MAJORITY east asian companies, where is this fact come from? Have u ever conducted a cross sectional study regarding to this matter, if u hv, is it statistically significant?'

Second, bossy, You not heard about it , that's why I ask u to do a little bit of reading, besides, that's not the primary point again.

Finally, Of what u said above has totally reflected ur attitude to people.
post #56 of 90
Originally Posted by wapoo View Post
Finally, Of what u said above has totally reflected ur attitude to people.

 

What, preferring reason and fact over lies? Because I see a lot of lies in your posts, is all.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #57 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Bossy I've not heard about us. If anyone's bossy, it's members of the Eurozone. lol.gif

Hey hey there, don't drag us into your argument with the Chinese ^^

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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post #58 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by abideworldwide View Post

It seems like people in Asia have no conscience about stealing someone else's property.

Having a grant of monopoly privilege does not make non-scarce information your "property". Grow up and stop depending on government force.

post #59 of 90
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post
Having a grant of monopoly privilege does not make non-scarce information your "property". Grow up and stop depending on government force.

 

So no one should have the right to protect anything they create? They don't own their creations?

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #60 of 90
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post

Having a grant of monopoly privilege does not make non-scarce information your "property".

 

So no one should have the right to protect anything they create? They don't own their creations?

That's an odd conclusion to draw from what I said...

 

Anyway, to your point, I can think of scenarios where someone wouldn't own something just because they created it. For example, if I steal a gold bar from you and carve a figurine out of it, I don't therefore own the figurine by mere virtue of having created it. So we can see that right of ownership doesn't derive from the fact of creation—it must derive from something else.

 

Property is a concept born from scarcity. We value the concept of property as a means to reduce conflict over scarce resources. If something isn't scarce (information, for example), and therefore X can make use of it without infringing on Y's capacity to do the same, then Y can't just ask the government to point a gun at X and call that a solution. In any event, the fact of having the gun pointed doesn't cause non-scarce information to be "property".


Edited by ngrlvr - 4/22/13 at 10:02am
post #61 of 90
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post
That's an odd conclusion to draw from what I said...

 

Well, it's exactly what you said, so…

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #62 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Well, it's exactly what you said, so…

No, you're either making things up or delusional... The whole interaction is right here written in stone, feel free to read it again...

post #63 of 90
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post
No, you're either making things up or delusional...

 

Developer makes app. App is developer's.

 

Since ownership, therefore exclusive sales right.

 

YOU: Having exclusive sales right ≠ ownership.

 

Which is all well and good, except it's not the argument at hand here. The apps are being stolen. How do we know they're being stolen? Because it's not the developer doing the distribution.

 

You're saying that if I create something that never existed before, it's not mine. That's ludicrous.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #64 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Developer makes app. App is developer's.

 

Since ownership, therefore exclusive sales right.

 

YOU: Having exclusive sales right ≠ ownership.

 

Which is all well and good, except it's not the argument at hand here. The apps are being stolen. How do we know they're being stolen? Because it's not the developer doing the distribution.

 

You're saying that if I create something that never existed before, it's not mine. That's ludicrous.

Just imagine if it were different than this? How could any company ever justify putting money into R&D? How would we continue to evolve?

post #65 of 90
Originally Posted by gamingdiva View Post
Just imagine if it were different than this? How could any company ever justify putting money into R&D? How would we continue to evolve?

 

And that's exactly why Apple has both the right and the drive to keep suing companies that steal their IP. Because if Samsung (Microsoft, Google, et. al.) is allowed to get away with straight up theft, what's the point in creating something new?

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #66 of 90
So if I buy an app, I own it? Its mine to do whatever I want to do with it? Like maybe share it with others? I dont want any monetary compensation, just want to share it.
post #67 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamingdiva View Post

Just imagine if it were different than this? How could any company ever justify putting money into R&D? How would we continue to evolve?

Not sure if serious... Polio vaccine, anyone?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Developer makes app arranges pattern of information. App Pattern of information is developer's [property].

 

No. A pattern of information isn't property. If anything is the developer's property here, it is the data on his hard drive (scarce), but not the pattern of information (non-scarce).

 

Since ownership, therefore exclusive sales right.

 

Rights don't derive from ownership, I already told you that. For example, a bank robber owns a lot of paper money, but that doesn't mean he has a right to that money.

 

YOU: Having exclusive sales right ≠ ownership.

 

No, don't lie. What I said was, "Having a grant of monopoly privilege does not make non-scarce information your "property"."

 

The apps patterns of information are being stolen copied.

 

That's what human beings do. We learn and copy, and improve. If someone is too lazy or immature to find a way to thrive, then it isn't a solution to ask government to point guns at the competition.

 

How do we know they're being stolen?

 

They're not being stolen, lol. You're just confused about what property is. Copying non-scarce information ≠ stealing property.

 

You're saying that if I create something that never existed before, it's not mine. That's ludicrous.

 

No, you're just confused about what property right's derive from. Property right doesn't stem from the fact of creation, for example: if I steal a gold bar from you and carve a figurine out of it, I have created a figurine but that doesn't mean I have a right to it.

 

Edited by ngrlvr - 4/22/13 at 11:46am
post #68 of 90
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post

Developer makes app arranges pattern of information. App Pattern of information is developer's [property].

 

No. A pattern of information isn't property. If anything is the developer's property here, it is the data on his hard drive (scarce), but not the pattern of information (non-scarce).

 

Do you have kids? NO YOU DON'T. THEY'RE MINE NOW. JUST A PATTERN OF DNA.

 

You can't win this argument because there isn't another side.


a bank robber owns

 

Do you know what words mean?


They're not being stolen, lol. You're just confused about what property is. Copying non-scarce information ≠ stealing property.

 

I want to find out that you create software for a living. Heck, even plants. Be a botanist or something. I'll make it a goal to steal as much from you as humanly possible, since you're perfectly fine with that.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #69 of 90

Now you're just talking gibberish man...

 

I said, "Having a grant of monopoly privilege does not make non-scarce information your "property"."

You responded, "So no one should have the right to protect anything they create? They don't own their creations?"

 

Your response is a non sequitor.

 

The problem is, you don't understand the concepts of property or rights. Like I pointed out several times, a person doesn't have a right to something by mere virtue of the fact that he created it. For example, I could steal a gold bar from you and carve a figurine out of it, but the mere fact of having created the figurine doesn't mean I have a right to it—it's your gold.

 

And property is a concept that applies to scarce resources; to have a "property" in a non-scarce resource is an incoherent concept. The concept of property is valued by humans naturally (as opposed to artificially, for example requiring a government to invent and impose, like IP) as a means to reduce conflict over scarce resources. You can't have a "property right" to something if someone else can control (own) it without reducing your capacity to do the same (conflict). So if someone creates an arrangement of information (code), he may have a right to the scarce medium which carries that arrangement (disk), but he doesn't have a right to the information itself (letters) nor to the pattern—it isn't scarce, several people can control it without conflict.


Edited by ngrlvr - 4/22/13 at 12:35pm
post #70 of 90
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post
"Having a grant of monopoly privilege does not make non-scarce information your "property"."

They don't own their creations?

 

Your response is a non sequitor.

 

I fail to see how.

 

…steal…

 

Do you know what words mean?


You can't have a "property right" to something if someone else can control (own) it without reducing your capacity to do the same (conflict).

 

So your argument boils down to "all software should be free" and "an idea cannot be owned".

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #71 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post
"Having a grant of monopoly privilege does not make non-scarce information your "property"."

They don't own their creations?

 

Your response is a non sequitor.

 

I fail to see how.

 

Because a fact of ownership is utterly independent of whether an institution even exists, no less a grant from that institution. For example, I own my body because I do as a matter of fact, not because anyone says I'm allowed to.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
So your argument boils down to "all software should be free" and "an idea cannot be owned".

 

I'm not talking about how things should be. Have you heard of the fact-value dichotomy? I'm talking about how things are, as a matter of fact, not as a matter of opinion.

 

"all software should be free"

No. I never said that.

 

"an idea cannot be owned"

You're repeatedly conflating very many concepts...ugghhhh....

"own" ≠ "right to own"

 

Since an idea is electricity in a brain, obviously it is of course owned, in this case by the person whose brain the idea resides in.

 

"idea" (electricity in a brain) ≠ "app" (pattern of information on a medium)

 

With an app there are several possible situations:

 

1. I own the server, but I rent the space to individuals who therefore have the rights to their contents (apps, for example) on my server.

2. Various individuals own their own hard drives, and each accesses their own copies of patterns of information without conflict.

3. I own the server, and various individuals own their own copies of the same pattern of information without conflict.

post #72 of 90
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post

1. I own the server, but I rent the space to individuals who therefore have the rights to their contents (apps, for example) on my server.

2. Various individuals own their own hard drives, and each accesses their own copies of patterns of information without conflict.

3. I own the server, and various individuals own their own copies of the same pattern of information without conflict.

 

What does any of this have to do with you being against punishment for stealing apps from developers?

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #73 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

What does any of this have to do with you being against punishment for stealing apps from developers?
You speak in fallacies. Your original complaint was a non sequitor, followed up by red herrings and putting words in my mouth. Now this is your latest red herring. I didn't claim to be against punishment for theft; for the umpteenth time, what I said was, ""Having a grant of monopoly privilege does not make non-scarce information your "property"."

- Please quote me saying I was against punishment for theft, or else stop putting words in my mouth.
- When did you demonstrate that making use of non-scarce information = theft?

And what happened to your whole creation equals ownership argument? If you're going to abandon it, at least acknowledge that I demonstrated why it's untenable.
post #74 of 90
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post
"Having a grant of monopoly privilege does not make non-scarce information your "property".

 

Which translates, in regard to the App Store, which is the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IN THE SCOPE OF THIS CONVERSATION, to: "you created it, but you don't have the right to stop others from using it"


And what happened to your whole creation equals ownership argument?

 

Have any laws been passed in the last few hours that override it? If not, nothing.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #75 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post

And what happened to your whole creation equals ownership argument? If you're going to abandon it, at least acknowledge that I demonstrated why it's untenable.
Have any laws been passed in the last few hours that override it? If not, nothing.

I'm not sure you understand what a logical argument is. When you make an untenable argument, then it doesn't need government regulation to declare it moot. For the umpteenth time, property rights don't stem form fact of creation, which is why a thief can steal your bar of gold and carve a figurine out of it without thereby gaining the property right to the figurine.

Again, creation equals property right is untenable. Give it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post

Having a grant of monopoly privilege does not make non-scarce information your "property".
Which translates, in regard to the App Store, which is the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IN THE SCOPE OF THIS CONVERSATION, to: "you created it, but you don't have the right to stop others from using it"

No. It just seems like you're trolling because if you had payed attention you would realize that I already pointed out:

An app is a pattern of information stored on a medium. Whoever has the property right to that medium, if he hasn't rented out the contents of it, has the property right to the information stored there. But that doesn't mean he has the property right to the PATTERN. He can stop others from violating his property—the hard disk that contains the pattern he arranged—but he can't stop others from arranging the same pattern on their own hard disks.

Get it now? You don't copyright "an app", you copyright a pattern of information. That's copyright law, get used to it. I'm saying it's ludicrous to threaten violence and charge "theft" against people for peacefully arranging identical of information. That's what sociopaths and psychopaths do, so it's incredibly ironic to see such people defending IP as though it's some morally superior position.
Edited by ngrlvr - 4/22/13 at 9:41pm
post #76 of 90
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post
When you make an untenable argument…

 

Ah, so creation ≠ ownership, huh? Except every copyright law says otherwise.


An app is a pattern of information stored on a medium.


So is DNA.


But that doesn't mean he has the property right to the PATTERN. He can stop others from violating his property—the hard disk that contains the pattern he arranged—but he can't stop others from arranging the same pattern on their own hard disks.

 

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard on this subject, and it's patently false. It's the polar opposite of what our laws exist to protect.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #77 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Ah, so creation ≠ ownership, huh? Except every copyright law says otherwise.

You're conflating positive law—manmade rules—with fact. If the government enacts a law that says 'giraffes are now whales', that doesn't therefore mean giraffes are whales as a matter of fact, it just meants the government has enacted a law. If the government says that whenever you create something then you gain a property right to it, that doesn't mean you gain a property right to it as a matter of fact.

 

Again, if I steal your gold bar, and carve a figurine out of it, I've created a figurine. But that doesn't mean I have property right to it—it's your gold. The fact of property right doesn't stem from creation, or you can justify theft. That's a reductio ad absurdum. Case closed. The end. Stop bringing it up. Nor does the fact of property right stem from government dictate, or literally anything goes as long as it comes from the government—another reductio ad absurdum.

 

The fact of property right is a function of scarcity and the homestead principle. The government's opinion is utterly irrelevant.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post

An app is a pattern of information stored on a medium.
 

So is DNA.

No, DNA is a medium which carries a pattern. You don't even know what you're talking about, this is painful...

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

It's the polar opposite of what our laws exist to protect.

Yes, governments enact some very silly laws, as I've been pointing out. Only a bunch of sociopaths would threaten violence and charge theft against peaceful people for arranging information into patterns, lol...


Edited by ngrlvr - 4/22/13 at 10:31pm
post #78 of 90
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post
If the government enacts a law that says 'giraffes are now whales', that doesn't therefore mean giraffes are whales as a matter of fact

 

Talk about painful.


Again, if I steal your gold bar, and carve a figurine out of it, I've created a figurine. But that doesn't mean I have property right to it—it's your gold. The fact of property right doesn't stem from creation, or you can justify theft. That's a reductio ad absurdum


It's a good thing you're the only one who ever claimed anything like that, then. Otherwise I'd look pretty foolish.

 

Look, all that matters is everything you've said is either wrong or completely irrelevant. I have no idea why you decided to bring up your conditional statements in the first place, but come off it with the nonsense you're trying to push on software developers.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #79 of 90
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post
Again, if I steal your gold bar, and carve a figurine out of it, I've created a figurine. But that doesn't mean I have property right to it—it's your gold. The fact of property right doesn't stem from creation, or you can justify theft. That's a reductio ad absurdum. Case closed. The end. Stop bringing it up. Nor does the fact of property right stem from government dictate, or else literally anything is justified as long as it comes from the government—another reductio ad absurdum.
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Look, all that matters is everything you've said is either wrong or completely irrelevant.

 

 

My argument, logical: a + b = c

Your argument: "I'm right because I said so, and you're wrong because I said so."

 

You must be right though, because you said so. You've stated your opinion, and I must be wrong because you clearly said, "everything you've said is either wrong or completely irrelevant." It was a pleasure arguing with someone of your caliber, with your distinguished intellect. Good day :)

post #80 of 90
Originally Posted by ngrlvr View Post
My argument, logical: a + b = c

 

Never mind the parts where you ignore half of it and say the opposite in a different thread. And where none of it applies.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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