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Denmark - Let's Rethink the Welfare State

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 

NYTimes.com

 

 

Quote:

It began as a stunt intended to prove that hardship and poverty still existed in this small, wealthy country, but it backfired badly. Visit a single mother of two on welfare, a liberal member of Parliament goaded a skeptical political opponent, see for yourself how hard it is.

 
It turned out, however, that life on welfare was not so hard. The 36-year-old single mother, given the pseudonym “Carina” in the news media, had more money to spend than many of the country’s full-time workers. All told, she was getting about $2,700 a month, and she had been on welfare since she was 16.

 

Carina tipped the scales? I could find hundreds of Carina's here in California. It isn't even hard to find.

 

 

Quote:

Denmark has been at work overhauling entitlements, trying to prod Danes into working more or longer or both. While much of southern Europe has been racked by strikes and protests as its creditors force austerity measures, Denmark still has a coveted AAA bond rating.

 

But Denmark’s long-term outlook is troubling. The population is aging, and in many regions of the country people without jobs now outnumber those with them.

 

 

Crazy how life isn't a snapshot, but a movie. The snapshot makes it easy to hide the trouble underneath.

 

Quote:

But few experts here believe that Denmark can long afford the current perks. So Denmark is retooling itself, tinkering with corporate tax rates, considering new public sector investments and, for the long term, trying to wean more people — the young and the old — off government benefits.

 

Clearly Denmark is just full of cruel and heartless assholes who don't make everyone pay their fair share or else this wouldn't be happening.

Quote:

Denmark has among the highest marginal income-tax rates in the world, with the top bracket of 56.5 percent kicking in on incomes of more than about $80,000.

 

Oh, I mean......look.... a unicorn!!!!!!!

 

Quote:

One study, by the municipal policy research group Kora, recently found that only 3 of Denmark’s 98 municipalities will have a majority of residents working in 2013. This is a significant reduction from 2009, when 59 municipalities could boast that a majority of residents had jobs. (Everyone, including children, was counted in the comparison.)

 

Yes but they don't need jobs. They just need money. It doesn't matter if the money comes from somewhere else. If the money runs out then just borrow or print more. Problem solved!

Quote:

Students are next up for cutbacks, most intended to get them in the work force faster.

 

Work in what jobs? Clearly Denmark hates young people.

Quote:

It is proposing cuts to welfare grants for those under 30 and stricter reviews to make sure that such recipients are steered into jobs or educational programs before they get comfortable on government benefits.


Why no one could ever get comfortable on government benefits. Only cruel Tea Party racist types think that and this is clearly a Republican meme.

Quote:

Officials have also begun to question the large number of people who are receiving lifetime disability checks. About 240,000 people — roughly 9 percent of the potential work force — have lifetime disability status; about 33,500 of them are under 40.

Wait, record numbers of disability.........this is starting to sound familiar.

Quote:

Some Danes say the existence of people like Carina and Mr. Nielsen comes as no surprise. Lene Malmberg, who lives in Odsherred and works part time as a secretary despite a serious brain injury that has affected her short-term memory, said the Carina story was not news to her. At one point, she said, before her accident when she worked full time, her sister was receiving benefits and getting more money than she was.

 

“The system is wrong somehow, I agree,” she said. “I wanted to work. But she was a little bit: ‘Why work?’ ”

 

Goodness, it sounds like the Danes are really going nuts. Why do they hate everyone and everything? How can they be so heartless? Why can't they just raise taxes and stop thinking about ending all their investments?

 

So sad to see Denmark sounding like this. What happened to them?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #2 of 20

The US need to rethink the welfare state as well. Some 25% of all major US corporations pay ZERO income tax.

The real welfare queens are large, profitable corporations, leeches and parasites on the US economy and taxpayers. Its easy if you're using an army of corporate lawyers and accountants to cheat the nation. The rest of us, without access to that kind of scammery and scheming, have to pay up. We the people are taking up  the slack that these freeloading, deadbeat dads of the business world, are causing. And then we wonder why the infrastructure is falling apart, libraries are closing,  services being slashed everywhere from Alaska to Florida.....

Capitalism is *supposed* to be all about "survival of the fittest" according to the mechanics of the (so-called) free market, if such a concept is possible (which it is not). Seems to be more about "the enrichment of those who have the most access"... ie crony capitalism.

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post #3 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

The US need to rethink the welfare state as well. Some 25% of all major US corporations pay ZERO income tax.

The real welfare queens are large, profitable corporations, leeches and parasites on the US economy and taxpayers.

 

The real leeches and parasites are anyone that's taking money from the government. Period. Even if they are providing a "service" to the people. If their service was truly valued, they would be able to offer that in the free market and earn the money and there would be no need it to be provided through the state and the extent of their leeching is the difference between their government compensation and what their compensation in the free market would be. If their service is not truly required, then they are a pure leech.

 

As a general rule, most businesses however are not leeches or parasites. They are the vehicle through which wealth and prosperity is being created, which the state is syphoning off. Most of the businesses and private sector employees of this world are the geese that are laying the golden eggs while the states, their employees and their cronies (capitalist, or otherwise) are the foxes that are stealing and devouring those eggs.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

The US need to rethink the welfare state as well. Some 25% of all major US corporations pay ZERO income tax.

The real welfare queens are large, profitable corporations, leeches and parasites on the US economy and taxpayers. Its easy if you're using an army of corporate lawyers and accountants to cheat the nation. The rest of us, without access to that kind of scammery and scheming, have to pay up. We the people are taking up  the slack that these freeloading, deadbeat dads of the business world, are causing. And then we wonder why the infrastructure is falling apart, libraries are closing,  services being slashed everywhere from Alaska to Florida.....

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Capitalism is *supposed* to be all about "survival of the fittest" according to the mechanics of the (so-called) free market...

 

 It is...when you have a fee-market. We don't.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

...if such a concept is possible (which it is not).

 

Of course it is.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Seems to be more about "the enrichment of those who have the most access"... ie crony capitalism.

 

Yes, that's what we have. But the root cause here is the state which is given the authority and "legitimacy" to steal people's money and coerce them to do whatever needs to be coerced. This entity (the state) gets co-opted by special interests (business and others) and thus becomes parasitic.

 

sammi, you are most of the way there. You just stop short of laying the blame where it truly belongs. The solution lies in reducing the state to its only morally legitimate and defensible role: protecting the life, liberty and property of its citizens. The so-called "night watchman state."


Edited by MJ1970 - 4/22/13 at 4:04pm

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #4 of 20

All hail the free market.  Do not anger the free market, or else corporations will lie to regulators, made toothless by years of Republican bitching, crying, and whining, resulting in explosions, death, dismemberment, and a giant blast crater in the middle of town.

 

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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #5 of 20
Thread Starter 

Welfare reform targets young.

 

Quote:
Today, Denmark has the largest percentage of people in the EU on permanent disability benefits due to mental illnesses, including chronic stress, anxiety and depression.

 

Sounds like statistics associated with the best place to live in the world!

 

Quote:
“We need a new balance. If we don’t get more people off public benefits, we’ll be forced to fire thousands of people who do a great deal of work in our nurseries and schools and for our seniors,” Jan Trøjborg (S), the chairman of KL, the national association of local councils, told Jyllands-Posten newspaper.

 

Imagine that, people wanting to reform government so that it can function for a core purpose rather than buying votes?!?!?!

 

Teacher lockout

 

Quote:
“My job as a social democratic prime minister is to ensure Denmark survives the crisis with its welfare state intact,”  Thorning-Schmidt said during a Ugebrevet A4 interview. “I think voters fundamentally expect us to create jobs and keep control of spending in order to maintain a healthy welfare state. That’s exactly what we’re doing, so we will have to see if the voters reward it at the election.”

 

Imagine that, controlling spending is showing support for the welfare state, not opposition to all things government. It is a clearly a crazy meme being put forward by this Tea Party Social Democrat!

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #6 of 20

If the unemployed are living well, then the system is working perfectly... until it becomes too costly.

 

If it's not too costly and has no indication of becoming too costly any time soon, it's just a case of the working class hating on the "freeloaders", and instead of wanting everybody in the nation to be living comfortably (which is the case), they want the "freeloaders" to live uncomfortably. They want to punish them. That, my friends, is class warfare.

post #7 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

If the unemployed are living well, then the system is working perfectly... until it becomes too costly.

 

If it's not too costly and has no indication of becoming too costly any time soon, it's just a case of the working class hating on the "freeloaders", and instead of wanting everybody in the nation to be living comfortably (which is the case), they want the "freeloaders" to live uncomfortably. They want to punish them. That, my friends, is class warfare.

 

Actually, you (and people like you that make similar claims) are the one trying to foment class warfare with your ugly and false rhetoric about people wanting others to live uncomfortably. That's just a lie.

 

Here again, there cannot be simple disagreement about policy, strategy, tactics and approaches...the ones with which you disagree with must be demonized and portrayed as evil and immoral while you lie about their motives and attitudes.


Edited by MJ1970 - 4/23/13 at 7:46am

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #8 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

If the unemployed are living well, then the system is working perfectly... until it becomes too costly.

 

If it's not too costly and has no indication of becoming too costly any time soon, it's just a case of the working class hating on the "freeloaders", and instead of wanting everybody in the nation to be living comfortably (which is the case), they want the "freeloaders" to live uncomfortably. They want to punish them. That, my friends, is class warfare.

 

Understood, Denmark is the happiest place on earth because it is full of class warfare tea partiers!

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #9 of 20
Excuse me. Who wrote the story demonizing people for living comfortably while not working hard enough (how DARE they!?)

Who started a thread spreading that story?

The answer to those questions is the answer to the question of who is starting class warfare.

People who aren't working hard are happy. The country isn't going bankrupt. Then what's the problem?
post #10 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Excuse me. Who wrote the story demonizing people for living comfortably while not working hard enough (how DARE they!?)

Who started a thread spreading that story?

The answer to those questions is the answer to the question of who is starting class warfare.

People who aren't working hard are happy. The country isn't going bankrupt. Then what's the problem?

 

You're not actually paying attention are you? You're not very good at math, are you? You're only wrapped up in your own biased, Marxist/Socialist mindset to see reality aren't you?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #11 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Excuse me. Who wrote the story demonizing people for living comfortably while not working hard enough (how DARE they!?)

Who started a thread spreading that story?

The answer to those questions is the answer to the question of who is starting class warfare.

People who aren't working hard are happy. The country isn't going bankrupt. Then what's the problem?

 

So let me see if I understand you correctly. Here is your list of tea party, right wing, hate mongering, class warfare warriors.

 

Me

The NY Times

Denmark

 

I mean sure you haven't addressed any substance and have gone right to killing the messenger, a classic ad-hom with this but I mean this is absurd even for an ad-hom.

 

You can't even attempt to deal with some of the statistics presented? How does a society generate wealth when no one is working?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Excuse me. Who wrote the story demonizing people for living comfortably while not working hard enough (how DARE they!?)


Who started a thread spreading that story?


The answer to those questions is the answer to the question of who is starting class warfare.


People who aren't working hard are happy. The country isn't going bankrupt. Then what's the problem?

So let me see if I understand you correctly. Here is your list of tea party, right wing, hate mongering, class warfare warriors.

Me
The NY Times
Denmark

I mean sure you haven't addressed any substance and have gone right to killing the messenger, a classic ad-hom with this but I mean this is absurd even for an ad-hom.

You can't even attempt to deal with some of the statistics presented? How does a society generate wealth when no one is working?
Why do you have to lie?

This is what you said:

No one is working.

Tell me if that's a lie or not, please.

And now for the second question.

Why does an already wealthy society have to generate more wealth than is required to make people happy?
post #13 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Excuse me. Who wrote the story demonizing people for living comfortably while not working hard enough (how DARE they!?)


Who started a thread spreading that story?


The answer to those questions is the answer to the question of who is starting class warfare.


People who aren't working hard are happy. The country isn't going bankrupt. Then what's the problem?

So let me see if I understand you correctly. Here is your list of tea party, right wing, hate mongering, class warfare warriors.

Me
The NY Times
Denmark

I mean sure you haven't addressed any substance and have gone right to killing the messenger, a classic ad-hom with this but I mean this is absurd even for an ad-hom.

You can't even attempt to deal with some of the statistics presented? How does a society generate wealth when no one is working?
Why do you have to lie?

This is what you said:

No one is working.

Tell me if that's a lie or not, please.

And now for the second question.

Why does an already wealthy society have to generate more wealth than is required to make people happy?

 

You are doubling down on the same failed tactic. First address what was put to you. You declared this to be class warfare and also said people are happier who aren't hard/hard enough.

 

The story notes that 9% of the working age population is on permanent disability. It was also noted that Denmark has the largest number of disabled working adults in the entire EU. This doesn't mean they aren't working hard/hard enough. It means they don't work period due to disability. I posted the article and it mentioned that out of 98 municipalities that in four years they had gone from 59 having a majority working to 3 having a majority working. It was noted that in most of the country that the percentage working is a minority. That isn't about working hard/hard enough. The majority not having any job is the norm.

 

You run those trends lines out and you will get down to no one working. There is a reason Denmark is trying to alter those trend lines and make taking government money less enjoyable and less desirable.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #14 of 20
You didn't answer my question. What's wrong with the people who are not working at all still being comfortable?

Is a millionaire's housewife with no children comfortable? How dare she be comfortable as a result of her husband's hard labor! Lazy bitch!

If 1% of the population could work efficiently enough to pay for 99% of the population's happiness, the why the hell not? That would be a great society, with very little crime and very little suffering. Shouldn't we aspire to that, if possible?
post #15 of 20
And you didn't respond to my calling out of your blatant lie that "no one" is working.
post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Is a millionaire's housewife with no children comfortable? How dare she be comfortable as a result of her husband's hard labor! Lazy bitch!

 

Wow! You didn't just post that and expect us to not recognize either your ignorance or your intellectual dishonesty did you?!

 

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #17 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And you didn't respond to my calling out of your blatant lie that "no one" is working.

 

First, go get your coffee. You are off your game. I never made the statement that no one was working. You are doing a little selective editing there. I asked a hypothetical question, about how does society generate wealth if no one is working. Go read it again.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You didn't answer my question. What's wrong with the people who are not working at all still being comfortable?

Is a millionaire's housewife with no children comfortable? How dare she be comfortable as a result of her husband's hard labor! Lazy bitch!

If 1% of the population could work efficiently enough to pay for 99% of the population's happiness, the why the hell not? That would be a great society, with very little crime and very little suffering. Shouldn't we aspire to that, if possible?

 

A couple points, first, why the misogynistic comments? No one in here has mentioned women, marriage, someone being a gold digger, nothing like that yet you go around calling a type of woman a bitch. Second a marriage is a consensual agreement between two parties. If they each assume certain roles within that marriage and one consists of sole provider, that is their choice, not their mandated role by society.

 

As for not working and being comfortable, I never said someone had to be uncomfortable. The thread was started because Denmark is often held up as the perfect social welfare model where all the ills associated with other models would never happen. The point is that they do happen and it is because of human nature and not because social welfare utopia hasn't occurred due to evil Republicans or any other bad caricature people want to throw out there. You ask if 1% could provide for the 99%, then why not? If the 1% consent to it then no worries but that isn't the case. The 99% increasingly use threatening and mob tactics to achieve what they want from that 1%. Also what happens if the 1% decides to join the 99%? How does anything get done then? So yes, the same question comes up again, how would a society generate wealth if no one is working?

 

Finally before that point we can ask, how does a society generate wealth when more people prefer to take that wealth than make that wealth and thus the wealth is declining? In the U.S. we are borrowing a trillion dollars a year. Much of Europe has borrowed their way into massive debt trying to maintain their social welfare benefits. Denmark is being written about here because even it does not have enough growth and wealth to maintain them.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I never made the statement that no one was working. You are doing a little selective editing there. I asked a hypothetical question, about how does society generate wealth if no one is working.
Fair enough. But why ask the question if "no one is working" is neither what is happening nor what will ever happen? Scare tactics. It's like me asking what will happen if no one grows and produces food because we can get it at the supermarket.
Quote:
A couple points, first, why the misogynistic comments? No one in here has mentioned women, marriage, someone being a gold digger, nothing like that yet you go around calling a type of woman a bitch. Second a marriage is a consensual agreement between two parties. If they each assume certain roles within that marriage and one consists of sole provider, that is their choice, not their mandated role by society.
So if society suddenly believes "hey, I as a working person don't mind if part of what I earn supports some people who don't want to work" then the world would be a better place. As it is in Denmark.
Quote:
As for not working and being comfortable, I never said someone had to be uncomfortable. The thread was started because Denmark is often held up as the perfect social welfare model where all the ills associated with other models would never happen. The point is that they do happen...
What ills do happen? I dont see any ills. You haven't pointed out any. Not only are not "all" of the ills associated with self-responsibility present in Danish society (infant mortality, illiteracy, hunger, drug abuse problems), I don't see ANY ills. It seemed from the very beginning that you wanted to say that people who choose not to work being happy is one of those "ills". On the contrary. It's a testament to how well the system works.
Quote:
...and it is because of human nature and not because social welfare utopia hasn't occurred due to evil Republicans or any other bad caricature people want to throw out there.
There is no utopia and no one pretends that there ever will be. But be honest. Danish society is run more efficiently and fewer people are unhappy due to lack of basic necessities or due to insecurity than other countries. And the reason for that is quite plainly socialism.
Quote:
You ask if 1% could provide for the 99%, then why not? If the 1% consent to it then no worries but that isn't the case.
So there we have a solution. Society needs to become more accepting of this arrangement. That's where we should place our efforts, not on trying to break down the concept of socialism through inane and petty criticism.
Quote:
The 99% increasingly use threatening and mob tactics to achieve what they want from that 1%.
Only according to the perception of someone who wants to tell the 99% to get to work. The 1% is becoming increasingly more selfish.
Quote:
Also what happens if the 1% decides to join the 99%? How does anything get done then? So yes, the same question comes up again, how would a society generate wealth if no one is working?
More scare tactics. Of course some people will continue working. People will always aspire to having more than everybody else. If the non-working welfare class is earning enough to get a Smart Car, does that mean no one will want a Bentley or a Porsche? Ridiculous.
Quote:
Finally before that point we can ask, how does a society generate wealth when more people prefer to take that wealth than make that wealth and thus the wealth is declining?
That's not what's happening. You're threatening that that's what's going to happen with your scare tactics. And you're ignoring the fact that even if it does start happening, society can adjust the balance without bringing down the welfare state.
Quote:
In the U.S...
The US is the most inefficiently run sack of garbage country on the planet, and part of that is the divisiveeness for/against the welfare state. Embrace socialism and everyone is happy and we stop borrowing. Reject socialism and only a few people are happy and we stop borrowing. Buy we can't stay stuck in the middle.
Quote:
Much of Europe has borrowed their way into massive debt trying to maintain their social welfare benefits.
Would that be the countries in Europe with high taxes or the countries who are pushing "austerity"?
Quote:
Denmark is being written about here because even it does not have enough growth and wealth to maintain them.
That assertion has not been shown. And if that ever does happen, adjustments are needed, not an overhaul.
post #19 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Fair enough. But why ask the question if "no one is working" is neither what is happening nor what will ever happen? Scare tactics. It's like me asking what will happen if no one grows and produces food because we can get it at the supermarket.

 

It isn't scare tactics. Many governments of the world are burying themselves under mountains of debt because nothing related to government is allowed criticism or to be judged. Also your analogy is flawed. A better analogy would be to ask you what would happen if no one grows and produces food because all the farmers have 99% of their crops confiscated and given away for free to the people. Why wouldn't the farmer just decide to go get the free food that arrives with no work?

Quote:
So if society suddenly believes "hey, I as a working person don't mind if part of what I earn supports some people who don't want to work" then the world would be a better place. As it is in Denmark.

 

Except "society" ends up being more than the people who earn the money who are rendering that decision. There's a word for someone else being entitled to the work and wages of another man. It is called slavery. At some point, a ratio keeps moving and tips and suddenly there aren't enough people making the money. It doesn't have to be 100% to 0% or 99% to 1%. Denmark is trying to encourage people to work because too many of them would prefer not to do so and now there isn't enough tax revenue and growth to fund those who would prefer not to work.

Quote:
What ills do happen? I dont see any ills. You haven't pointed out any. Not only are not "all" of the ills associated with self-responsibility present in Danish society (infant mortality, illiteracy, hunger, drug abuse problems), I don't see ANY ills. It seemed from the very beginning that you wanted to say that people who choose not to work being happy is one of those "ills". On the contrary. It's a testament to how well the system works.

 

What ills happen? You haven't read any articles about the culture of dependency? Why do you think people talk about long term unemployment as a problem? People no longer engage in certain skills like bathing or showing up on time. They don't see a reason to escape poverty or improve even when programs are offered.

 

I can give (anecdotal) examples a plenty.  Kids that don't do homework who then won't show up at free afterschool tutoring because no one wants to be bothered to drive to school a bit later. This is common. However common examples are also lifestyle choices. Obesity, smoking and a host of other negative lifestyle choices are far more prevalent among the poor, even when such choices are more expensive than the alternatives. What you witness are people who no longer buy into causality and instead have become fatalists.

 

Also the history of Communism in the U.S.S.R. and Eastern Europe and also in places like Cuba today can't just be forgotten. The numbers for food production, good, etc all were never met because there was no incentive.

Quote:
There is no utopia and no one pretends that there ever will be. But be honest. Danish society is run more efficiently and fewer people are unhappy due to lack of basic necessities or due to insecurity than other countries. And the reason for that is quite plainly socialism.

 

Fewer people are happy or unhappy as determined by a U.N. report that uses a number of proxies to determine "happiness." How does having the most disabled people in the entire E.U equate with happiness? Perhaps we should go around intentionally disabling people to improve their happiness? Honestly it looks much more like Denmark has worked because of what I've contended all along. They have oil reserves, and they pump the oil out of the ground and spend the wealth on their people. However their oil wells are declining, so is their wealth and coincidentally, so is their ability to sustain a welfare state.

Quote:
So there we have a solution. Society needs to become more accepting of this arrangement. That's where we should place our efforts, not on trying to break down the concept of socialism through inane and petty criticism.

I wasn't aware that numbers, debt, economic growth and jobs were just forms of inane and petty criticism.

Quote:
Only according to the perception of someone who wants to tell the 99% to get to work. The 1% is becoming increasingly more selfish.

Perhaps they should stop being so selfish and join their 99% unworking brothers and sisters in their virtuous unselfishness. Won't the world be a great place then?

 

Quote:
More scare tactics. Of course some people will continue working. People will always aspire to having more than everybody else. If the non-working welfare class is earning enough to get a Smart Car, does that mean no one will want a Bentley or a Porsche? Ridiculous.

 

Why would they continue working when they can stop working, still have a comfortable life and best of all, be justified and correct in the eyes of someone like yourself instead of a greedy and selfish jerk (or bitch was your preferred term) who hurts everyone with their terrible desire to be unequal? Per you, the person just taking money and being happy is the most morally right person. The person enabling their lifestyle is only tolerated in his evil desires because he enables others. What if that person decides not to be evil anymore and just wants their check as well?

Quote:
The US is the most inefficiently run sack of garbage country on the planet, and part of that is the divisiveeness for/against the welfare state. Embrace socialism and everyone is happy and we stop borrowing. Reject socialism and only a few people are happy and we stop borrowing. Buy we can't stay stuck in the middle.

The U.S. has a lot of problems but it is also the first country to be trying to be a multicultural and multiethnic society on this scale. It is historic in that regard. Keep telling yourself it could work as easily everywhere when you keep living in and noting examples that are 90+% homogenous.

 

As for the borrowing, I've been reading these critiques lately that are so full of crap in noting that borrowing economies still have good growth. Of course they do. Borrowing is when you take from future growth so the borrowing at present isn't going to reflect the true nature of that growth. If borrowing doesn't include the cost of economic growth to pay it back, then it isn't an accurate measure. Much like how eating today doesn't harm your health until you factor in the exercise you must do for the excess calories and demand the caloric bill be paid. If it never is in terms of calories, you end up fat and dead early. As a country, you end up broke.

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Would that be the countries in Europe with high taxes or the countries who are pushing "austerity"?

That would be all of them who aren't pumping wealth out of the ground to keep their credit rating up or those who haven't fallen completely in the hole and sank with the rest of Europe yet.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #20 of 20

Game, set and match.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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