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Apple invention creates a secure device-to-device network with just a picture

post #1 of 58
Thread Starter 
Apple on Tuesday was granted patent rights to a novel data transfer invention that allows one device to use its built-in camera to take a picture of a second device, and extract a digital handshake key from the image to setup a secure connection.

Digital Handshake
Source: USPTO


The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office published Apple's U.S. Patent No. 8,429,407 for "Digital handshake between devices," which covers the creation of a secure communications path between two devices by using an image to generate a digital handshake key.

As noted in the patent, modern portable devices like the iPhone can store a wealth of digital content, such as contacts, text documents, video, music, and more. Currently, most users rely on email or direct messaging to transfer said content from one device to another, with copy and paste being an effective, yet tedious, mode of storage.

Other implementations can facilitate a direct communications path between the two devices, leveraging wireless technologies such as Bluetooth or Wi-Fi to transfer data. However, these methods require the handsets to share a network key, and existing implementations of generating this passkey are limited. For example, in some instances users must generate and type in an identical pass phrase to gain access to another device's content.

Digital Handshake


While a few apps, such as Bump, facilitate key generation when two devices output similar accelerometer data, such as a "bump," the method may not be viable if one device is without a motion sensor.

Apple's invention instead provides that an image taken of a device will include a key. For example, the second device can display a dynamic key onscreen or have a key embedded in its housing or bezel. Other examples are provided where filters, flash or infrared light can reveal a hidden key. In some cases, a specialized chip is integrated with the camera module to detect and decipher a device key.

Digital Handshake
Illustration of chassis-located keys.


A process follows that generates a digital handshake key by using the device-provided key or seed with the key captured in the image. This process can support multiple devices, with more dynamically added by using the same initially generated key. For added protection, a device can require a user-generated code to connect.

Further, if there are multiple devices in a captured image, a device can intelligently parse out which is requesting a key through location, distance and content displayed onscreen.

Digital Handshake


Once the two devices are connected, they can share content based on an open program, or an app that is not running. The patent holds that some or all of the content being displayed can be transferred, depending on user preference.

The language notes that in some embodiments, the digital handshake can merely serve as an authentication system, granting a device access to secured information. An example is provided in which a user's identity can be confirmed when purchasing goods, such as prescription medication.

Apple's camera-based digital handshake patent was first filed for in 2010 and credits Marcel Van Os and Caroline Cranfill as its inventors.
post #2 of 58

Hacked!

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 75

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post #3 of 58
Wow, using a barcode scanner to transfer information! Whoda thunkit?
post #4 of 58
Just a random thought on my part, but NFC with an adhoc wifi backup option is probably the best solution. Some clever software could ensure wifi is automatically turned on for the procedure and the whole thing could be automated. I'm thinking the adhoc wifi option that's included would ensure it would work on all iPhones. I think Apple and Google should work together to have this cross platform too, though.
Edited by Ireland - 4/23/13 at 3:15am
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post #5 of 58
This is almost exactly how people log in to secure networks in many shops around the world. Their employer gives them a barcode that they scan to log themselves into the secure network. This is often done via wi-fi. No innovation here imo
post #6 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Just a random thought on my part, but NFC with an adhoc wifi backup option is probably the best solution. Some clever software could ensure wifi is automatically turned on for the procedure and the whole thing could be automated. I'm thinking the adhoc wifi option that's included would ensure it would work on all iPhones. I think Apple and Google should work together to have this cross platform too, though.

 

There already is an NFC standard for exchanging information between phones via WiFi.   That's what many Android phones use, as does Blackberry and I think Nokia.

 

This extra step just complicates transfers when you're close enough to see the other device.

post #7 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

There already is an NFC standard for exchanging information between phones via WiFi.   That's what many Android phones use, as does Blackberry and I think Nokia.

This extra step just complicates transfers when you're close enough to see the other device.

Wow, interesting. We need that on all phones.
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post #8 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Wow, interesting. We need that on all phones.

Yeah good luck getting "we do it OUR way" Apple to sign onto that. They're still dragging their heels on NFC adoption in general, let alone it's implementation in something like that.

That's really my only beef when it comes to Apple tech: it's ok to use something your eggheads didn't think of, guys. Licensing tech isn't the end of the world.
post #9 of 58
kind of like https://web.wechatapp.com

WeChat uses an onscreen QR code to let a user access and chat from a webpage. Super cool feature. (I'm not affiliated with this app or company, but I love scanning the QR code, and this is about the only time I get to do it)
post #10 of 58
Meanwhile in the real world...

I still have to enter my AppleID to download FREE apps and app updates still don't happen automatically. Here's a thought for Apple: Make your current features less of a pain in the ass before adding new features, mmmmmkay?
post #11 of 58
Originally Posted by woodycurmudgeon View Post
I still have to enter my AppleID to download FREE apps…

 

That's by design. Please understand why.


…and app updates still don't happen automatically. 

 

Also by design.

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post #12 of 58

This is needed for security.

Otherwise anybody can install free apps on your device.

And the upgrade, I prefer to decide myself if and when I upgrade an app.

So Apple should keep it that way.
 

post #13 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cash907 View Post


Yeah good luck getting "we do it OUR way" Apple to sign onto that. They're still dragging their heels on NFC adoption in general, let alone it's implementation in something like that.

That's really my only beef when it comes to Apple tech: it's ok to use something your eggheads didn't think of, guys. Licensing tech isn't the end of the world.

 

 

Apple isn't going to embrace such technology until it makes sense to do so. For instance, when there is one standard as opposed to competing NFC standards. Moreover, you don't need NFC to have device to device networking. NFC complicates that. 
post #14 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodycurmudgeon View Post

Meanwhile in the real world...

I still have to enter my AppleID to download FREE apps and app updates still don't happen automatically. Here's a thought for Apple: Make your current features less of a pain in the ass before adding new features, mmmmmkay?

 

You don't have to enter your ID, just your password because you are essentially purchasing it (and should have authorization to do so) and pushing it to your other devices (and should have authorization to do so). You don't need to enter anything for updates. Auto updates aren't a great solution if there are features you don't want being pushed down (new facebook app has slowed down my older iPhone). You should have the choice to update specific apps if you want.

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post #15 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodycurmudgeon View Post

Meanwhile in the real world...

I still have to enter my AppleID to download FREE apps and app updates still don't happen automatically. Here's a thought for Apple: Make your current features less of a pain in the ass before adding new features, mmmmmkay?

 

I agree with the first part of your critique. I hate typing in my App ID to get a free App. Make that optional. As to automatic downloads, I think the problem with that is many people might not like updates to perfectly functioning apps to be updated automatically. If anything, that should be optional as well. 

post #16 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

 

You don't have to enter your ID, just your password because you are essentially purchasing it (and should have authorization to do so) and pushing it to your other devices (and should have authorization to do so). You don't need to enter anything for updates. Auto updates aren't a great solution if there are features you don't want being pushed down (new facebook app has slowed down my older iPhone). You should have the choice to update specific apps if you want.

It should be optional. If the App is free, I am not purchasing it. Passwords are needed when money is involved, so the harm for allowing password free purchases would be limited. 

post #17 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodycurmudgeon View Post

Meanwhile in the real world...

I still have to enter my AppleID to download FREE apps and app updates still don't happen automatically. Here's a thought for Apple: Make your current features less of a pain in the ass before adding new features, mmmmmkay?

 

An option for automatic updates would be nice, but I wouldn't like it ON by default.

 

And I like having to enter my password to download FREE apps. I'm constantly letting me niece game and draw using Paper on my iPhone 5 and iPad 4, but I'm obsessive when it comes to clogging up my purchased apps list with crapware. I deprecated my old Apple IDs last year, I had 3 of them, and now I've one with a simple password and it's bliss. I have that password since before that extra security measures were introduced. And I've a nice tidy purchased apps list for the future.

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post #18 of 58
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Also by design.

 

That's not a good response to not having automatic updates. Like I said, haven't that as a non-default option would be nice for some people.

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post #19 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

It should be optional. If the App is free, I am not purchasing it. Passwords are needed when money is involved, so the harm for allowing password free purchases would be limited. 

Apple likely requires entry of the password for multiple reasons (even for free apps):
  • Prevent unauthorized purchases by minors (Apple has faced legal action)
  • Prevent unauthorized "purchases" by unscrupulous people, for example, certain apps may attempt to escalate privileges. If a password were not required then such apps might be ubiquitous (as on competing platforms)

I do not desire to have the security issues of competing platforms. These really are minor inconveniences considering the additional level of security provided.
post #20 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cash907 View Post


Yeah good luck getting "we do it OUR way" Apple to sign onto that. They're still dragging their heels on NFC adoption in general, let alone it's implementation in something like that.

That's really my only beef when it comes to Apple tech: it's OK to use something your eggheads didn't think of, guys. Licensing tech isn't the end of the world.

 

They are dragging their heels on NFC because it's still not secure enough not to get fooled. Cases have been shown where NFC was used to hijack phones (http://thenextweb.com/google/2012/09/19/security-researchers-hack-android-via-nfc-samsung-galaxy-s-iii/). Why do you think Apple got AuthenTech? NFC as it is has proven it to be convenient but hackable. Apple wants to take the time to create a method that locks it down further while distinguishing it from competitors. That's a good thing and should happen more often.

On that point, knowing what to adopt and what you can improve is a strong suit of Apple's. It's funny you are making it sound like a fault. They adopted most modern tech we take for granted before any of their competitors made them main-stays. USB, CD burning, WiFi, Bluetooth, HTML5, SSD - just to name a few. None of which Apple created but all of which Apple incorporated into their full lineup well before competitors did usually while phasing out established tech that in some cases they created or had a hand in creating. That being said you can't just license any and every solution out there (that's what's happening to every android manufacturer out there not called Samsung) and differentiate yourself as well. There is more to tech advancement beyond just a spec race.

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post #21 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nairb View Post

This is almost exactly how people log in to secure networks in many shops around the world. Their employer gives them a barcode that they scan to log themselves into the secure network. This is often done via wi-fi. No innovation here imo

 

The innovation, if any, is the device gaining access to the other device by virtue of taking a picture of the device. 

post #22 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

It should be optional. If the App is free, I am not purchasing it. Passwords are needed when money is involved, so the harm for allowing password free purchases would be limited. 

 

Yes, you are. You are exchanging information with a developer and agreeing to in-app services and connections. It doesn't matter about the "cost", Apple wants you to be aware of what you are doing by installing any app on your device that may tap into your info/location/photos. It wouldn't be the first time a simple app added "location" or "photography" features through an update. After an app is installed and say it needs access to your photos, an "ok" allows it, not a password. That security needs to be at the beginning or else you are entering your password a bunch of times on launch.  

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post #23 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

 

They are dragging their heels on NFC because it's still not secure enough not to get fooled. Cases have been shown where NFC was used to hijack phones (http://thenextweb.com/google/2012/09/19/security-researchers-hack-android-via-nfc-samsung-galaxy-s-iii/). Why do you think Apple got AuthenTech? NFC as it is has proven it to be convenient but hackable. Apple wants to take the time to create a method that locks it down further while distinguishing it from competitors. That's a good thing and should happen more often.

On that point, knowing what to adopt and what you can improve is a strong suit of Apple's. It's funny you are making it sound like a fault. They adopted most modern tech we take for granted before any of their competitors made them main-stays. USB, CD burning, WiFi, Bluetooth, HTML5, SSD - just to name a few. None of which Apple created but all of which Apple incorporated into their full lineup well before competitors did usually while phasing out established tech that in some cases they created or had a hand in creating. That being said you can't just license any and every solution out there (that's what's happening to every android manufacturer out there not called Samsung) and differentiate yourself as well. There is more to tech advancement beyond just a spec race.

 

 

I agree with you on all but CD burning. Apple was late to the game with CD burning. Jobs even said as much when introducing iTunes. Your point still stands. People complain when Apple rushes, like with Maps, but also complain when it takes its time. You can also add LTE to your list. Competitors had LTE phones out a year before Apple, but they required two chips to function and their battery life was dismal. Apple waited until newer tech placed the two chips into one thereby improving battery life. Most of the time, Apple knows what it is doing. 

post #24 of 58
The greatest challenge for mobile payments (Bluetooth, NFC) in my opinion is that mobile payments do not necessary provide any benefit to the user. Typically, using a smartphone to pay isn't any easier than using a credit card. Unfortunately, this design patent doesn't change that inconvenience. I must still have my smartphone in my hand and interact with another human and device. Of course, this may be the unsung genius of Passbook as Passbook rather than mobile payments can provide an incentive for using mobile payments rather than credit cards.
post #25 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

 

 

I agree with you on all but CD burning. Apple was late to the game with CD burning. Jobs even said as much when introducing iTunes. Your point still stands. People complain when Apple rushes, like with Maps, but also complain when it takes its time. You can also add LTE to your list. Competitors had LTE phones out a year before Apple, but they required two chips to function and their battery life was dismal. Apple waited until newer tech placed the two chips into one thereby improving battery life. Most of the time, Apple knows what it is doing. 

 

No, CD Burning was an add-on for win boxes at the time. Again, I'm not talking "tech for spec", the addition of bleeding edge tech to show off on a spec sheet but without using it as a means to solve a problem. I'm talking about tech as a solution. Apple was the first to use CD Burners as a line wide replacement for floppies. You are right about LTE, totally true.

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post #26 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

 

Yes, you are. You are exchanging information with a developer and agreeing to in-app services and connections. It doesn't matter about the "cost", Apple wants you to be aware of what you are doing by installing any app on your device that may tap into your info/location/photos. After an app is installed and say it needs access to your photos, an "ok" allows it, not a password. That security needs to be at the beginning or else you are entering your password a bunch of times on launch.  

I don't disagree with what Apple's motivation may be. However, my phone is set to not allow in app purchases, and as you mention after the install, you have to agree to other things like push notifications. When a store gives you free samples, you don't have to give it your credit card number to get the samples. 

 

If somebody steals your phone, assuming it is not password protected, they already have access to lots of personal information including all the things you mentioned. I find the possibility of being compromised by a theft of my phone too remote to justify the password for free apps, hence me thinking it should be optional.  

post #27 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

 

No, CD Burning was an add-on for win boxes at the time. Again, I'm not talking "tech for spec", the addition of bleeding edge tech to show off on a spec sheet but without using it as a means to solve a problem. I'm talking about tech as a solution. Apple was the first to use CD Burners as a line wide replacement for floppies. You are right about LTE, totally true.

 

I am not sure I disagree about CD burning being an add on for Window boxes. That was certainly true in some cases. I remember being able to get quite a few Window boxes with the burner built in. For my Mac Tower, purchased right after Jobs came back to Apple, I had an external CD burner. 

 

You, however, make a great point that I didn't think about concerning getting rid of floppies while embracing CD burners. Lots of folks made a big deal about that at the time. Others like Dell and HP eventually followed suit.

 

 

One area I was surprised concerning Apple's reluctance to embrace the new was with Safari. Jobs introduced Safari Beta 4 with tabs on top (e.g. like Chrome). He said it was great. Surveys showed that about half the people loved it, and half hated it. In the beta you could keep the tabs on top or put them on the bottom. Yet, when the final product shipped, Apple not only removed the tabs from the top, but removed the option to put them where you wanted. Now every browser but Safari has moved to tabs on top. 


Edited by TBell - 4/23/13 at 7:37am
post #28 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

It should be optional. If the App is free, I am not purchasing it. Passwords are needed when money is involved, so the harm for allowing password free purchases would be limited. 

 

This is how people get viruses because they can't be bothered to enter a password for their own safety. How many free apps do you download a day that it's such a major inconvenience for you?

post #29 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

The greatest challenge for mobile payments (Bluetooth, NFC) in my opinion is that mobile payments do not necessary provide any benefit to the user. Typically, using a smartphone to pay isn't any easier than using a credit card. Unfortunately, this design patent doesn't change that inconvenience. I must still have my smartphone in my hand and interact with another human and device. Of course, this may be the unsung genius of Passbook as Passbook rather than mobile payments can provide an incentive for using mobile payments rather than credit cards.

 

I'm not sure how else you buy things. Without something in your hand how would you know you bought something when you did and not 5 minutes earlier and not what you wanted? Without interacting with another human or device, how would you know you had a secure transaction, or that it even happen at all? 

I have NFC on my card and I like tapping for lunch, especially since I don't have to count change. When I whiz though the checkout line for lunch I still get looks of disbelief that I'm not entering a pin, not signing anything, i have no change to fumble with and don't need a receipt. Now if they could make it more secure (and I think that the AuthenTech acquire will remedy that) then I would be confident in using it to make bigger purchases (above $20). Then Apple would rule my wallet. Long game.

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post #30 of 58

yeah, especially those that jumped on the iMac when it first came out. Floppy? Gone. Serial Ports? Gone. Expansion bays? Gone. Dedicated removable video card? Gone. Module design? Gone. Its crazy to think that is now just a modern-day laptop.

 

In many ways the original iMac was a precursor to the Mac Book Air.


Edited by websnap - 4/23/13 at 8:32am
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post #31 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

I'm not sure how else you buy things. Without something in your hand how would you know you bought something when you did and not 5 minutes earlier and not what you wanted? Without interacting with another human or device, how would you know you had a secure transaction, or that it even happen at all? 


I have NFC on my card and I like tapping for lunch, especially since I don't have to count change. When I whiz though the checkout line for lunch I still get looks of disbelief that I'm not entering a pin, not signing anything, i have no change to fumble with and don't need a receipt. Now if they could make it more secure (and I think that the AuthenTech acquire will remedy that) then I would be confident in using it to make bigger purchases (above $20). Then Apple would rule my wallet. Long game.

"When I whiz though the checkout line for lunch I still get looks of disbelief that I'm not entering a pin, not signing anything, i have no change to fumble with and don't need a receipt."

That isn't unique to NFC and isn't very convenient as you must still have something in your hand to "tap." In fact, an argument could be made that "tapping" with your card is more convenient than using a smartphone for mobile payments.

I am not suggesting that I have an answer to the issue but you really only proved my point, which is that mobile payments aren't really any more convenient. Mobile payments on smartphones (Bluetooth, NFC) is a solution in search of a problem to solve.
Edited by MacBook Pro - 4/23/13 at 7:50am
post #32 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

 

One area I was surprised concerning Apple's reluctance to embrace the new was with Safari. Jobs introduced Safari Beta 4 with tabs on top (e.g. like Chrome). He said it was great. Surveys showed that about half the people loved it, and half hated it. In the beta you could keep the tabs on top or put them on the bottom. Yet, when the final product shipped, Apple not only removed the tabs from the top, but removed the option to put them where you wanted. Now every browser but Safari has moved to tabs on top. 

 

I think it was just a "branding" by UI sort of thing. I'm only speaking personally but if resolutions hadn't increased they way they did at the time I would have loved to hold of the precious real estate, but since they trimmed down so much of what goes for UI in Safari keeping that functionality didn't do a whole lot to save space but DID look like they were following. Granted, it is a nice piece of UI on the mobile browser but I don't even think about it on the desktop. That's just me though.

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post #33 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

This is how people get viruses because they can't be bothered to enter a password for their own safety. How many free apps do you download a day that it's such a major inconvenience for you?

 

A password doesn't prevent owner screwups.

 

Owners don't need passwords.  The only reason to have a password for free app install, is if you give your device to kids or "friends".  

 

Every device should have "I'm loaning this to someone" mode, that automatically locks out everything you've previously checked off for that mode.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

I have NFC on my card and I like tapping for lunch, especially since I don't have to count change. When I whiz though the checkout line for lunch I still get looks of disbelief that I'm not entering a pin, not signing anything, i have no change to fumble with and don't need a receipt. 

 

As I've mentioned before, my daughter in Florida loved paying with NFC, especially when her son was very young and had to be carried everywhere.  She usually had him in one arm, and her phone in the other hand.   

 

She used NFC for gas, coffee, fast food, CVS pharmacy, Home Depot, etc.

 

If only more grocery stores accepted it.

post #34 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post


"When I whiz though the checkout line for lunch I still get looks of disbelief that I'm not entering a pin, not signing anything, i have no change to fumble with and don't need a receipt."

That isn't unique to NFC and isn't very convenient as you must still have something in your hand to "tap." In fact, an argument could be made that "tapping" with your card is more convenient than using a smartphone for mobile payments.

I am not suggesting that I have an answer to the issue but you really only proved my point, which is that mobile payments aren't really any more convenient. Mobile payments on smartphones (Bluetooth, NFC) is a solution in search of a problem to solve.

 

Sure it is! I never carry cash so it is convenient to tap and go rather than take out cash for less than 5 dollar purchase. I don't have to worry about change so the transaction is quicker (both in receiving the change and organizing it after to get out of the way), plus I can also make the argument that I save money as I no longer have change to lose track of (lost funds, according to my online banking). As awesome as that all is, my NFC-attributed card doesn't give me an instant notification that the process went through. It doesn't alert me that someone in the restaurant is trying to hack it with bluetooth. All things that a smartphone could do if securly connected.

I have a wallet/iPhone case (http://twelvesouth.com/products/bookbook_iphone/) that I always have near me when out and around and I have yet to find myself in a situation where I haven't had "something to tap". If anything, the only problem I have encountered is that I haven't found something to tap to. Hopefully that is changing, especially when Apple gets in on it.

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post #35 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

Sure it is! I never carry cash so it is convenient to tap and go rather than take out cash for less than 5 dollar purchase. I don't have to worry about change so the transaction is quicker (both in receiving the change and organizing it after to get out of the way), plus I can also make the argument that I save money as I no longer have change to lose track of (lost funds, according to my online banking).


How does a smartphone improve upon this process?

Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

As awesome as that all is, my NFC-attributed card doesn't give me an instant notification that the process went through. It doesn't alert me that someone in the restaurant is trying to hack it with bluetooth. All things that a smartphone could do if securly connected.


Your credit card has Bluetooth?
post #36 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

How does a smartphone improve upon this process?

 

The second part you quoted is how a smartphone would improve the process. I'll add it again for context:

 

Quote:
As awesome as that all is, my NFC-attributed card doesn't give me an instant notification that the process went through. It doesn't alert me that someone in the restaurant is trying to hack it with bluetooth. All things that a smartphone could do if securely connected.

 

I would also add that the phone could alert you to low funds, give you the ability to tag a purchase for review latter if you think you may have been double-charged... In fact, I can't see how it couldn't be improved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

Your credit card has Bluetooth?
 

No, it has NFC. I'm not sure what it's called in the states (probably changes from bank to bank) but my bank here in Canada calls it "PayPass". The CC has a chip like many others that induces a secure transaction by being inserted in a terminal but it also has NFC in the same chip for wireless transactions. It pull double duty in case the terminal only accepts a chip/swipe.


Edited by websnap - 4/23/13 at 8:49am
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post #37 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

I would also add that the phone could alert you to low funds, give you the ability to tag a purchase for review latter if you think you may have been double-charged... In fact, I can't see how it couldn't be improved.


None of that is the actual process of paying. The process of making the payment is the only area in which I claimed there is a major issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

No, it has NFC. I'm not sure what it's called in the states (probably changes from bank to bank) but my bank here in Canada calls it "PayPass". The CC has a chip like many others that induces a secure transaction by being inserted in a terminal but it also has NFC in the same chip for wireless transactions. It pull double duty in case the terminal only accepts a chip/swipe.


You implied that your credit card has Bluetooth by suggesting that you couldn't be hacked. The transaction is not secure which is the other major issue with mobile payments.
post #38 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

None of that is the actual process of paying. The process of making the payment is the only area in which I claimed there is a major issue.

 

I disagree, I don't see a major issue at all as the process of paying is still familiar. I go to a merchant, find something i want and instigate a secure transaction. That won't change until the laws of commerce change and that is a lot to ask a phone to do. I don't see the issue and I think calling it a major one is overblown. How do you see it going down?

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

You implied that your credit card has Bluetooth by suggesting that you couldn't be hacked. The transaction is not secure which is the other major issue with mobile payments.

No, if you go back I didn't say my card couldn't be hacked, exactly the opposite, I said it could be hacked by someone using Bluetooth. I guess I didn't explain myself. I meant using a Bluetooth device with an NFC loader board. I never meant to imply my card had bluetooth. Yes, we are both in agreement that NFC transactions, as they are, are not very secure, at least not as secure as they could be which is why I'd be interested in seeing what apples Authentec implementation could do to benifit that.
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post #39 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

That isn't unique to NFC and isn't very convenient as you must still have something in your hand to "tap." In fact, an argument could be made that "tapping" with your card is more convenient than using a smartphone for mobile payments.

 

Tapping with a card requires carrying the card and probably pulling it out of a wallet.   But you're right... NFC on a phone is just another version of convenience;  you don't have to use it, any more than you have to use a credit card.

 

As time goes on, more and more (especially young) people seem to carry a smartphone, but no watch and probably would want no wallet either.

 

Already we see those Geico commercials with the electronic insurance card on the pig's phone;  one day our driver's license will be digital as well, and we can all stop carrying wallets.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

You implied that your credit card has Bluetooth by suggesting that you couldn't be hacked. The transaction is not secure which is the other major issue with mobile payments.

 

How is an NFC transaction not secure?  (Are you repeating an internet myth?)

 

Phone NFC is actually safer than a card, since there's a rather low limit (~$25 at many places) before you must use a PIN... whereas a stolen credit card can be used right away to buy hundreds of dollars of stuff.  

 

Heck, all a thief often needs is the NUMBER from a credit card to make another card or to order things.   You cannot steal the number in a secure NFC transaction.

post #40 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

I disagree, I don't see a major issue at all as the process of paying is still familiar. I go to a merchant, find something i want and instigate a secure transaction. That won't change until the laws of commerce change and that is a lot to ask a phone to do. I don't see the issue and I think calling it a major one is overblown. How do you see it going down?


I just do not see a compelling reason for the majority of the population to prefer mobile payments on a smartphone to the multitude of alternatives especially given that the act of paying itself isn't fundamentally better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

It doesn't alert me that someone in the restaurant is trying to hack it with bluetooth. All things that a smartphone could do if securly connected.


As you stated, your credit card doesn't have Bluetooth. As a result an alert that someone is "hack[ing] it with bluetooth" is unnecessary.



I simply do not see anything that will compel the majority of the populace to use mobile payments on smartphones. Certainly, there are advantages but the process of paying isn't disrupted.

This makes me wonder if there are any usage statistics for Passbook.
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