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Kernel Panic Attack Expert Help Needed

post #1 of 40
Thread Starter 
I am having huge problems with kernal panics an my DP 1 GHz. This machine has never been to stable (never more than a week uptime without a kernel panic), and sometimes a reinstall of OS X will help. These last couple of days have been terrible for stability, that means I have KPs every 5 minutes today.

I wish there was a place to learn to read the panic.log so that I could figure this out myself, but I haven't the slightest clue. So I was hoping that you guys and girls may be able to give me some idea as to the problem with my machine.

Please help, you are my only hope.

<a href="http://homepage.mac.com/quarem/asap.txt" target="_blank">Apple System Profiler Report</a>
<a href="http://homepage.mac.com/quarem/panic.log" target="_blank">panic.log</a>
post #2 of 40
Well, we're going to need some more info from you. did you install any drivers for devices lately? That could be the source of the problem.
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post #3 of 40
Thread Starter 
No, I can't find a correlation between any new hardware and the rash of KP's. They still do occur when I unplug all the extras from my machine (iPod, Powermate, Scanner (Epson Photo 1250), and my second monitor.

When I first got the machine, I was having a similar amount of KPs, but they resided. But it has never been crash free for more than a week.

I just ran the Apple Hardware Test CD and it found nothing wrong. But I don't understand why this thing is so unstable, since this is a less then a month old installation of X (I don't use 9 and it isn't installed).

I was hoping somebody could read my panic.log and come up with at least some idea as to the problem. Got any other ideas?

[ 01-31-2003: Message edited by: Quarem ]</p>
post #4 of 40
Thread Starter 
Here is an update from what I did last night.

First I reset the PRAM, but the KPs keep on coming so I thought of something else.

I have an iBook that has been rock solid stable, it has uptimes that last the time between OS X updates, so I used the iBook's OS X install to boot my Powermac via firewire, within five minutes the Powermac had kernel paniced.

I booted back onto the Powermac and re-applied the 10.2.3 update and restarted. It booted but KPed in five minutes. I then booted off my 10.2 CD's to due a reinstall, and it KPed before I could even get the installation to start. This machine has KPed when booting off of the Jaguar CDs so I wasn't that surprised when it happened again.

Finally I put the Powermac into target disk mode and installed a fresh version of 10.2 onto the Powermac from the iBook. I applied the 10.2.3 update and shut the machine down for the night. I turned it on this morning and have had 3 KPs already.

So I think this demonstrates either there is a hardware problem, or a hardware software conflict that I can't think of.

Help.
post #5 of 40
I wonder whether it's worth removing the 3 DIMMs and replacing one at a time to see if its a problem with a memory chip. I'm not sure whether you bought them separately and installed them yourself, or whether they came preinstalled with the computer, but it may be worth a try.
post #6 of 40
Looking at your panic.log it may be some sort of sound device is screwing your system. I had a similar issue once with bad m-audio drivers on a non g4 computer (which had to be g4 for this version of drivers) and got the same IOAudio errors.

Have you installed any extra things that do sound?
post #7 of 40
do you have a KVM? a few USB KVMs out there are notorious for causing kernel panics.

the memory seems the most likely culprit though.
post #8 of 40
Thread Starter 
Yeah I was looking at tha IOAudio stuff in the panic.log as well but I don't have any audio devices so I couldn't figure out what to do with that one.

I just finished taking out my second HD and optical drive. I also removed all the memory excepy for the 256 MB that came with the computer. So far so good, hopefully it is just the memory because that is easy to replace.

Thanks for all the help and I'ls keep you all posted.
post #9 of 40
-It's always on Cpu 1
-It has got to do with 'panic(cpu 1): We can't get a mutex interlock lock on mutex_lock
' something "mutex"
-and I would remove your Serial Number from the ASP Report ASAP !
post #10 of 40
Thread Starter 
Thanks, it totally slipped my mind about the S/N, but most people are honest so I'm not that worried about it. It's gone now, but what is the worst thing someone could do with the S/N?

I checked with my friend's DP 1 GHz and his panics are on CPU 1 as well, so I'm not sure if that means anything.

In good news, the machine has been stable since I removed everything, and I'm going to put another 512 DIMM in soon.
post #11 of 40
If you haven't registered yet, someone could take your S/N, register it over at apple.com/register and tell the police afterwards that it was stolen. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

Keep that RAM-thing going. It really looks like bad RAM-
post #12 of 40
Thread Starter 
I see, I would have never thought of that unless you had said something. The older I get the more naive I realize I am. So thanks a lot. Luckily I do have the machine registered, so I should be OK.

I'll put more RAM in soon, as soon as iPhoto is done uploading my prints to Kodak.
post #13 of 40
Thread Starter 
I have had all the RAM (3 DIMMs) back in the machine for the last couple of hours and have yet to experience any problems.

I'll run the system like this for the next week so that I can thoroghly test the machine to confirm that the RAM is ok. After that I will put the second hard drive back in and see if that is the culprit, and proceed from there.
post #14 of 40
it's your RAM. that's the only thing i've ever seen cause KP's like you're talking about. the problem with bad RAM is that it usually isn't reported as bad RAM, it's something else that's reported as bad.

in this case, the I/O for another device is trying to write to a sector of RAM that you have, and is hitting a bad spot. it craps out and you get a KP.

you should start crashing again pretty soon after you put the chips back in. as soon as it tries to read/write off that area of RAM, you're machine is going to crap out.
post #15 of 40
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by alcimedes:
<strong>it's your RAM. that's the only thing i've ever seen cause KP's like you're talking about. the problem with bad RAM is that it usually isn't reported as bad RAM, it's something else that's reported as bad.

in this case, the I/O for another device is trying to write to a sector of RAM that you have, and is hitting a bad spot. it craps out and you get a KP.

you should start crashing again pretty soon after you put the chips back in. as soon as it tries to read/write off that area of RAM, you're machine is going to crap out.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You're right. I just had a KP and have removed the last DIMM I put in. I have a feeling that this is the problem DIMM, since I've had it since I first got my machine. It's surprising though since it's Kingston RAM.

Your explanation about the KPs makes sense, that would explain why the KPs where never consistant. I'll see how stable it is on these 2 DIMMs.

[ 02-02-2003: Message edited by: Quarem ]</p>
post #16 of 40
if they continue, even after you've swapped out RAM, the only thing left is a problem with the MB. those are the hardest problems to detect because again, the real problem is never reported, you just see signs of it everywhere else. it's also almost impossible to detect until you've ruled out everything else.

odds are good that your machine will be stable now.
post #17 of 40
Thread Starter 
So if there is a problem with my RAM and Apple Hardware Test didn't pick it up, what is the point of having an Apple Hardware Test shipped with every machine.

Is it just to pick up on glaring hardware problems?
post #18 of 40
[quote]Originally posted by Quarem:
<strong>So if there is a problem with my RAM and Apple Hardware Test didn't pick it up, what is the point of having an Apple Hardware Test shipped with every machine.

Is it just to pick up on glaring hardware problems?</strong><hr></blockquote>


It's so that Apple tech support can ask: did you run the Apple Hardware Test CD? If you haven't, well that is clearly the problem. The irony being of course that if the hardware of the computer is broken, you probably cannot load a cd.

Once when the DVD player in my Powerbook broke, the Apple tech support people wanted me to run the test cd, even though the DVD player did not work! it took a little while to explain this. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

Since your machine is in warranty, you should have just sent it in for repairs and let Apple deal with the problem or give you a new machine.
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post #19 of 40
thing is, there are a few different types of RAM problems you can have. some will cause problems while not being detectable by hardware testers.

the most common of these is if you get chips that have a slightly different voltage/refresh rate on 'em. individually each chip will work just fine, and will test out ok. however, when the chips are combined into one machine, they'll stop working properly and you'll start getting BSOD's or KP's.
post #20 of 40
Thread Starter 
So does this mean if I put the 512 MB DIMM that I suspect is the problem in by itself that my machine will run flawlessly?

The reason I just haven't given the machine to Apple is because I still need to use it, and the RAM that is bad is not Apple's so I'm not sure if they would do anythig about it.
post #21 of 40
it might work just fine. i don't know for sure.

could be the chip is flat-out bad, could just be that there are problems working between the chips.

give it a shot, but don't work on anything extremely important w/o saving often.

this is one of those trial and error type fixes.
post #22 of 40
Thread Starter 
Well I put the "bad" DIMM in by itself, but I haven't had any problems so far. I even lauched as many applications as I could and opened up plenty of Finder windows, so that top in the terminal was reporting 6 MB of free PhysRAW being free. I couldn't seem to get it to zero, it was probably using VM.

I'm going to put the Apple 256 MB DIMM back in and see if I can get this thing to crash. I was really hoping I would just put the bad DIMM in and it would KP like crazy and then I'd be done. I'll let you know what happens.
post #23 of 40
Thread Starter 
Ok nothing was happening, this is frustarateing.

I also have noticed that the only times I have KPs are when the 3rd from the CPU RAM slot is filled so I have placed the Apple RAM in that slot by itself.

I am getting a nagging feeling that I am not giving the KP enough time to appear. Should I be having testing periods of a couple days instead of a couple of hours?

If this doesn't create a KP I think I'll but all the RAM back in, but not in the 3rd slot. I am really lost, this is not following the clear cut pattern that I was hoping for.

Is there any way to force your machine to use all the RAM in your computer, besides opening up lots of Finder windows and apps? That way I could at least I could test individual DIMMs. I hope this isn't a logic board, or RAM combination problem.

[ 02-03-2003: Message edited by: Quarem ]</p>
post #24 of 40
When we first got our PowerMac 867 it used to freeze after going into sleep mode. I couldn't find a solution that worked so I said, what the heck, and changed the RAM cards around into different sockets. It never did it again. So where you put the ram can make a difference.
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post #25 of 40
Thread Starter 
Yeah I think you might be right. I have the second HD back in, with the second monitor hooked up. I am pretty confident that these two devices where not the cause of the KPs, but I zeroed the second hard disk just to make sure. I also have put all the RAM back into the machine, but I am not using the 3rd slot, and I haven't had a crash in what is almost a days use.

The KPs have gone away for periods of time before, so I'm not sure if I have actually fixed the problem. If it does start KPing again, I'll pull the suspected bad DIMM out and see if they go away. But for now, it seems everything is working fine, which is kindof frustarateing, because it's an unsolved problem, that could return.
post #26 of 40
give it a few days at a time. if it's not crashing, you're on the rigth track.
post #27 of 40
post #28 of 40
Thread Starter 
I just had my weekly KP, lets hope this goes away because I don't want to start yanking RAM again, I got to much work to do.
post #29 of 40
Thread Starter 
KPed again within 5 minutes. So I have pulled out the "bad" DIMM and am hoping for the best.

Of interest, I can hear a radio station through my headphones for about 15 sec after I power the machine down. Weird.

[ 02-08-2003: Message edited by: Quarem ]</p>
post #30 of 40
Thread Starter 
It crashed again without the bad DIMM, now there is only the Apple RAM in there.
post #31 of 40
Thread Starter 
It crashed again just with the Apple RAM, so I disconnected the 2nd HD. Lets see what this does.
post #32 of 40
Thread Starter 
After I pulled the HD tho KPs went away, so I plugged the HD back in and it has been fine since. On the advice of a friend I have taken the Apple RAM out, just to make sure that RAM is not causing the problem, since I have not gotten a KP without the Apple RAM installed.
post #33 of 40
Hey Quarem,
Sorry to hear that you are still having problems with such a nice machine. Just to fill in just in case someone else has this problem I am going to share a story with you about the new DMD G4.
A friend got a new Dual 1, more RAM, and a 80GB HD. Everything ran fine for the first little while. Then the machine had KP after KP. Also very slow, opening a word
We ripped out hair out kinda like you are doing now checking RAM, OS, Install Media, and Logs. After almost 2 months we pulled the HD and the problems went away. Apple had us replace the Logic Board, CPU, all that was wrong was a HD.
The new DMD will not take a standard Master/Slave combo, and live up to the speed promises they make. We found that placing both drives on Cable Select helped a-lot.
Furthermore, this is the first Apple Product that I can remember to do this.
Are you still haveing problems with this machine? (if so might be worth a call to Apple Customer Relations)
Other then a Stock machine what else is in/ connected to it? (I got the iPod/1250 Post)
Are you making faces at it or using a PC in sight of the G4? (jk)
-n
post #34 of 40
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by noid:
<strong>Hey Quarem,
Sorry to hear that you are still having problems with such a nice machine. Just to fill in just in case someone else has this problem I am going to share a story with you about the new DMD G4.
A friend got a new Dual 1, more RAM, and a 80GB HD. Everything ran fine for the first little while. Then the machine had KP after KP. Also very slow, opening a word
We ripped out hair out kinda like you are doing now checking RAM, OS, Install Media, and Logs. After almost 2 months we pulled the HD and the problems went away. Apple had us replace the Logic Board, CPU, all that was wrong was a HD.
The new DMD will not take a standard Master/Slave combo, and live up to the speed promises they make. We found that placing both drives on Cable Select helped a-lot.
Furthermore, this is the first Apple Product that I can remember to do this.
Are you still haveing problems with this machine? (if so might be worth a call to Apple Customer Relations)
Other then a Stock machine what else is in/ connected to it? (I got the iPod/1250 Post)
Are you making faces at it or using a PC in sight of the G4? (jk)
-n</strong><hr></blockquote>

You might remember that I had KPs like crazy when I first got the machine, but they went away and returned about every month of two, so I really didn't do much about it.

Both my HDs are set to cable select, and when I first got the machine, I had taken out the 2nd (non-Apple) HD but still got a lot of KPs. The only common denominator in this whole thing, is something that Apple has put into my machine. Maybe it is the HD, or the RAM, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is the logic board.

My KPs aren't consistent, look at the log, IOAudioKit stuff was crashing it. I would assume that if it was the HD that all the KP would have a similarity, some IO failure during the read or write process. Or can bad HDs cause all sorts of varying reasons for a KP like RAM and the MB can?

I don't know. It would be great to have a stable machine, all my other X machines run for months without any problems.

I don't have anything else hooked up to the machine that I didn't already list, and I have plugged the scanner back in because I have done about 3 reinstalls during this last month. I get KPs when I am booted from the install CD as well if my machine is in a bad mood, why oh why. I guess if you have enough one of your Apples will be bad.
post #35 of 40
post #36 of 40
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by AirSluf:
<strong>

Yes, even when booted from the CD if the bad HD has issues in the directory that get scanned at some point or another. A corrupted pointer someplace in there will direct the OS to all kinds of bad places, which is basically the problem I had, multiple bad sectors in the partition directory.

The whole directory isn't scanned all the time so it can end up semi-random like you see. One possible semi-painful way to check the directory is manually traverse the entire directory structure *including all the OS hidden subdirectories* and if you get a repeatable KP as the OS tries to load and cache the next levels down you can be fairly certian it is the HD.

[ 02-10-2003: Message edited by: AirSluf ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

This sounds interesting, but how would I go about doing this? I can use the Terminal, just give me some pointers. Thanks.
post #37 of 40
Thread Starter 
Ok I tried doing

find /

in the terminal and that seems to have gone through my entrie file structure, but not the Apple Partition Map. I can see the Apple Partition Map in diskutil from the terminal, using

diskutil list

how do I get the computer to scan load that stuff and play around with it? Can I use disktool, or another CL binary?

Also do you think the find / was sufficient? I redirected the SO to a text file that is ~30 MB, I took a look at it and it appears to have scanned everything.
post #38 of 40
Thread Starter 
I used Diskcopy to create a new image from Device, that being my hard disk, I'm not sure if this read the partition map, but it must have read all the data on my disk. So is it safe to assume that my hard disk is OK?
post #39 of 40
Thread Starter 
It has been a while since I posted any new information on my problem, the reason is that it has been a while since I had anything to post. But a lot of things have happened in the last couple of days.

For the last 2-3 weeks I have been running the machine without the Apple RAM. I was told to this to make sure that the problem didn't occur because of a RAM issue. The machine ran fine for the first little while and I was beginning to think that perhaps the problem was with the RAM, but my machine has since gone back to having KP in runs of 6-10 on about a 15 minute basis. So we now know that the KPs are not caused by any one DIMM since the KPs occur when any one DIMM is absent. Because of this I am getting a new mobo, under warranty and it should be in my machine within the next week or so. Hopefully the KPs will stop after that.

During my latest plague of KPs I disconnected my second (non-Apple) HD again and the KPs kept coming. Previously this had stopped the KPs, but this new evidence shows that the KPs or not caused by the second HD, further confirming that it is the mobo's fault.

I have yet to confirm, in this manner, that the Apple HD is not at fault, but I think it is a safe bet considering the random nature of the KPs and that I was not able to cause a KP by scanning my HD with 'find' of by creating a disk image of the entire drive.

Also a new form of KP has emerged in this last plague. Get this, the KP screen begins to fall down as normal, but before it can hit the bottom the machine just powers down. I have only experienced this once of twice, I wonder if it is an indication of extra hardware problems, or if this is a feature of 10.2.4. Thank goodness I have journalling on, or the frequency with which I must force power down my machine would have caused data loss for sure.

Thanks for all of your help and suggestions.
post #40 of 40
Thread Starter 
I haven't gotten any new parts for the Powermac yet, but I can almost guarantee that the hard drive is not to blame. I can use the Apple hard disk as a boot drive on any other machine (another Powermac, iBook, Powerbook) through Firewire Target Disk Mode without problems. I have been using that setup for the last week without any KPs on the host machines that are using the FTDM startup disk, but as soon as I boot the Powermac up an its own I get a KP within an hour of use.

So after over a month of investigation, and 100s of restarts, and 3 system reinstalls, I have found out that the KPs are not caused by faulty RAM, or a faulty hard disk.

Tomorrow, if all goes according to plan, I will got a new CPU module. Apparently it is more likely that the CPU module is at fault than the mobo. Hopefully this will fix my problem.

Oh yeah, I also tried a PMU Reset on the mobo, and that didn't fix the problem either. I am still posting this information, mostly as an online reference and log to what I have done, but I hope that it can serve as a layout for how to trouble shoot a bad machine.
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