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The very real damage done by anti-gay BIGOTS--why marriage equality MATTERS

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/2-texas-man-after-34-years-my-partners-sister-legally-took-our-home-because-we-werent-married/legal-issues/2013/04/29/66089

 

 

 

Quote:

“She put him in a Nursing Home and had criminal trespass orders against me to keep me away from him,” Lon Watts writes:

I’LL NEVER BE ABLE TO SEE HIM AGAIN! She got his bank account from Social Security Disability and sold his house out from under me. I had 2 weeks to vacate uur home of 12 years. [sic]

If we were EQUAL in the eyes of the law we would be together till the end. But as it stands in Texas, a money hungry greedy relative was able to steal our life and toss me out as trash to pad her pocketbook. I pray God has mercy on her soul for her evil deeds. I am content knowing the world is coming around to acknowledge that ALL HUMANS ARE CREATED EQUAL and SHOULD HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS.

I've looked for the other side to this story and haven't found it.  Regardless, this is something that can easily happen to any homosexual couple until marriage equality is a real thing nationwide.

 

Meanwhile, in South Africa, the child abuse known as gay conversion camps have caused the deaths of several teens.  

 

http://instinctmagazine.com/blogs/blog/conversion-therapy-boot-camp-leader-on-trial-for-torturing-and-killing-gay-teens?directory=100011

 

 

 

Quote:
The Echo Wild Game Rangers Course was advertised to parents as a place to turn boys into men, with the subtext and promotional materials promising to turn effeminate gay teens into straight masculine guys. But what some parents got back after sending their teens to 'course' general Alex De Koker were not strapping macho-fied men, but frail, near-death sons with stories of unimaginable torture. 

 

The very fact that we have parents anywhere in this world that feel the need to send children to a camp to un-gay them is absolutely horrific.  Why does it happen?  It's still socially acceptable, though it has been getting better lately, to treat gay people as subhuman.  Denying marriage equality is another plank in that "being gay is wrong" platform.  

 

These horrors don't just exist abroad--they are happening right here in the United States, too.  Thankfully California has banned the child abuse of conversion therapy.  New Jersey is attempting to do the same.

 

 

 

Quote:

New Jersey lawmakers heard horror stories about the programs, including from Brielle Goldani of Toms River.

She said that in 1997, at 14, she was sent to a camp in Ohio. Goldani told lawmakers she was given electric shocks and drugs to induce vomiting as part of the treatment.

"This is nothing more than legalized child abuse," said Goldani.

Lawmakers heard of suicides of young people who had been in such programs and that many associations of professional therapists say the programs are not valid ways to help lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender youth as well as those questioning their sexual orientation.

"These practices are based on the false idea that being LGBTQ is a mental illness that needs to be cured," said Alison Gill, a lobbyist for the Trevor Project, which provides crisis intervention and suicide prevention to young gays, "an idea which has been rejected by every major mental health group for decades."

 

But again, treating homosexuals as those deserving fewer rights than heterosexuals only serves to empower those who would abuse their children with this type of conversion "therapy."  It's got to stop. 

 

LGBT teen suicide rates are higher than the rest of the population.

 

 

 

Quote:

Researchers have found that suicide among lesbiangaybisexualtransgender (LGBT) youth is comparatively higher than among the general population. LGBT teens and young adults have one of the highest rates of suicide attempts.[1] According to some groups, this is linked to heterocentric cultures and institutionalised homophobia in some cases, including the use of LGBT people as a political wedge issue like in the contemporary efforts to halt legalising same-sex marriages.[2] Depression and drug use among LGBT people have both been shown to increase significantly after new laws that discriminate against gay people are passed.[3] Bullying of LGBT youth has been shown to be a contributing factor in many suicides, even if not all of the attacks have been specifically addressing sexuality or gender.

The National Action Alliance for Suicide Prevention notes there are no national data (for the U.S.) regarding suicidal ideation or suicide rates among the LGBT population as a whole or in part, for LGBT youth or LGBT seniors, for example.[2] In part because there is no agreed percentage of the national population that is LGBTQ, or even identifies as LGBTQ, also death certificates do not include sexuality information.[2] The Family Acceptance Project's research has demonstrated that "parental acceptance, and even neutrality, with regard to a child's sexual orientation" can bring down the attempted suicide rate.[1]

 

And I haven't even gotten into the awful LGBT teen homelessness problem that exists because asshole bigot parents toss these kids out on the streets.  

 

Homosexuals deserve equal rights.  The culture that prevents those equal rights is severely damaging, and often lethal, to our fellow homosexual neighbors.  Ironic how it's predominately Christians in America who act like such bigoted assholes and don't love their neighbors, but rather hate their children.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #2 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/2-texas-man-after-34-years-my-partners-sister-legally-took-our-home-because-we-werent-married/legal-issues/2013/04/29/66089

 

 

 

Quote:

“She put him in a Nursing Home and had criminal trespass orders against me to keep me away from him,” Lon Watts writes:

I’LL NEVER BE ABLE TO SEE HIM AGAIN! She got his bank account from Social Security Disability and sold his house out from under me. I had 2 weeks to vacate uur home of 12 years. [sic]

If we were EQUAL in the eyes of the law we would be together till the end. But as it stands in Texas, a money hungry greedy relative was able to steal our life and toss me out as trash to pad her pocketbook. I pray God has mercy on her soul for her evil deeds. I am content knowing the world is coming around to acknowledge that ALL HUMANS ARE CREATED EQUAL and SHOULD HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS.

I've looked for the other side to this story and haven't found it.  Regardless, this is something that can easily happen to any homosexual couple until marriage equality is a real thing nationwide.

 

Meanwhile, in South Africa, the child abuse known as gay conversion camps have caused the deaths of several teens.  

 

http://instinctmagazine.com/blogs/blog/conversion-therapy-boot-camp-leader-on-trial-for-torturing-and-killing-gay-teens?directory=100011

 

 

 

Quote:
The Echo Wild Game Rangers Course was advertised to parents as a place to turn boys into men, with the subtext and promotional materials promising to turn effeminate gay teens into straight masculine guys. But what some parents got back after sending their teens to 'course' general Alex De Koker were not strapping macho-fied men, but frail, near-death sons with stories of unimaginable torture. 

 

The very fact that we have parents anywhere in this world that feel the need to send children to a camp to un-gay them is absolutely horrific.  Why does it happen?  It's still socially acceptable, though it has been getting better lately, to treat gay people as subhuman.  Denying marriage equality is another plank in that "being gay is wrong" platform.  

 

These horrors don't just exist abroad--they are happening right here in the United States, too.  Thankfully California has banned the child abuse of conversion therapy.  New Jersey is attempting to do the same.

 

 

 

Quote:

New Jersey lawmakers heard horror stories about the programs, including from Brielle Goldani of Toms River.

She said that in 1997, at 14, she was sent to a camp in Ohio. Goldani told lawmakers she was given electric shocks and drugs to induce vomiting as part of the treatment.

"This is nothing more than legalized child abuse," said Goldani.

Lawmakers heard of suicides of young people who had been in such programs and that many associations of professional therapists say the programs are not valid ways to help lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender youth as well as those questioning their sexual orientation.

"These practices are based on the false idea that being LGBTQ is a mental illness that needs to be cured," said Alison Gill, a lobbyist for the Trevor Project, which provides crisis intervention and suicide prevention to young gays, "an idea which has been rejected by every major mental health group for decades."

 

But again, treating homosexuals as those deserving fewer rights than heterosexuals only serves to empower those who would abuse their children with this type of conversion "therapy."  It's got to stop. 

 

LGBT teen suicide rates are higher than the rest of the population.

 

 

 

Quote:

Researchers have found that suicide among lesbiangaybisexualtransgender (LGBT) youth is comparatively higher than among the general population. LGBT teens and young adults have one of the highest rates of suicide attempts.[1] According to some groups, this is linked to heterocentric cultures and institutionalised homophobia in some cases, including the use of LGBT people as a political wedge issue like in the contemporary efforts to halt legalising same-sex marriages.[2] Depression and drug use among LGBT people have both been shown to increase significantly after new laws that discriminate against gay people are passed.[3] Bullying of LGBT youth has been shown to be a contributing factor in many suicides, even if not all of the attacks have been specifically addressing sexuality or gender.

The National Action Alliance for Suicide Prevention notes there are no national data (for the U.S.) regarding suicidal ideation or suicide rates among the LGBT population as a whole or in part, for LGBT youth or LGBT seniors, for example.[2] In part because there is no agreed percentage of the national population that is LGBTQ, or even identifies as LGBTQ, also death certificates do not include sexuality information.[2] The Family Acceptance Project's research has demonstrated that "parental acceptance, and even neutrality, with regard to a child's sexual orientation" can bring down the attempted suicide rate.[1]

 

And I haven't even gotten into the awful LGBT teen homelessness problem that exists because asshole bigot parents toss these kids out on the streets.  

 

Homosexuals deserve equal rights.  The culture that prevents those equal rights is severely damaging, and often lethal, to our fellow homosexual neighbors.  Ironic how it's predominately Christians in America who act like such bigoted assholes and don't love their neighbors, but rather hate their children.

 

Hello Mr. Pseudo science, you've not shown a single link that attributes those you are trying to tar to the actual issues related to acceptance of homosexuality. You slap the labels on there because of your own hate filled views.

 

Also you don't even look at the language of what you have posted. "According to some groups...." well what gives them authority or and expertise in this area? "Heterocentric cultures" so people being themselves as heterosexual makes some homosexuals feel alienated and thus it is our fault?

 

Let me tell you, I live in a "right-handed centric" culture since I am left handed. There are studies back and forth that even show higher death rates for left handers and a lower life expectancy. There was even and sometimes a current history of "conversion" practices whereby left handers are forced to be right handed and regardless of whether being forced or not, we have to act "right" most of the time anyway because that is the way everything is designed.

 

But the point where the reasoning would fall down is when I start declaring all this happens because of Christians. It happens because the world is mostly right handed. Shock therapy isn't terrible because it was just applied against homosexuals, it is terrible because lots of psychotherapy involve things like drugs and also things like shock therapy as their tools. That is straight up guilt by association fallacy.

 

While I feel for the first couple, estates are challenged in death and unfair decisions made regarding are not at all uncommon. Wills, trusts and other tools help but the point is I've read plenty of stories like that involving second wives, illegitimate children, or just immediate family who didn't think the matter was handled appropriately. You need to go read some family law websites. This stuff is common and the solution isn't more government but less. The issue isn't homophobia but the fact that government has the right to intervene and control these matters. Get married. Get divorced. Die and leave your estate to your best friend and not your wife and son. See if the courts don't intervene on her behalf and make something happen. They would do this even if you aren't gay. They would do this even if it were a second wife. They do this because government is terrible at rendering these decisions sometimes, not because of homophobia.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #3 of 30
Thread Starter 

http://www.dallasvoice.com/judge-lesbian-moms-partner-10147997.html

 

 

 

Quote:

MCKINNEY — Page Price and Carolyn Compton have been together for almost three years, but a Collin County judge is forcing them apart.

Judge John Roach Jr., a Republican who presides over the 296th District Court, enforced the “morality clause” in Compton’s divorce papers on Tuesday, May 7. Under the clause, someone who has a “dating or intimate relationship” with the person or is not related “by blood or marriage” is not allowed after 9 p.m. when the children are present. Price was given 30 days to move out of the home because the children live with the couple.

 

Ah, so if they were married, this "morality clause" would not be a problem for them.  Oops, marriage equality doesn't exist in Texas.

 

 

 

Quote:

Gay couples are unfairly targeted under the clause because they can’t legally marry in Texas, Upton said.

So, an ex who is upset that his marriage ended because his wife was gay could use it against her later.

“What the clause has become is an extra burden on gay people because they’re no more likely to violate it than straight people,” he said. “It’s a problem that continues with homophobia.”

 

A homophobic conservative judge is willing to tear a family apart because of his bigotry.  "Morality clauses" perhaps should exist at all, but marriage equality would also disarm this heinous tactic.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #4 of 30
The morality clause applies to heterosexuals as well. The same article notes the judge is likely to be overturned on appeal. I guess case law rules when you want a single judge to enforce their views regarding for gay marriage but somehow case law stinks when a single judge enforces their views against gay marriage. You're being a hypocrit.

Now perhaps you understand why even though I endorse gay marriage, I don't endorse it via case law, especially when overturning existing law. I do endorse it when the majority speaks through their legislature and amends or passes said laws.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #5 of 30
Thread Starter 
Hetero couples can marry and thus bypass the clause. Homosexual couples cannot. It's really not that fucking hard to understand.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #6 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Hetero couples can marry and thus bypass the clause. Homosexual couples cannot. It's really not that fucking hard to understand.

 

No what's hard for someone like yourself to understand is that a family court is using kids to determine who adults can have relationships with be they homosexual or heterosexual.

 

The issue is family courts. They suck. They need to be fixed. Things like shared parenting need to be a norm.

 

The morality clause is a bad law regardless of sexual orientation.

 

Why ask for the right to marry so you can follow a bad law? Why not get rid of the bad law? BTW this bad law is in EVERY STATE. It allows every family court to stick their nose into family business.

 

So ask yourself why if this homosexual woman was MARRIED to her ex-husband, she could have ADULTERY with her homosexual lover every single night and the courts could do nothing about it. They can only do something about it when they divorce and the family courts get involved. BTW, on a side note adultery is not against the law in Texas but it is still against the law in Massachusetts. How strange is that in this day and age?

 

Consider this, if this woman has a beer, married to her lover or not, in the presence of her children, the judge could rule against her according to the morality clause. If she smokes a cigarette, he could find her in contempt. Could the judge do this if they had not divorced and one party or the other had not asked for the clause? They couldn't the problem is family courts and family court law. The problem is letting a judge control you because you needed a divorce. It is NOT that she is a homosexual. Hit the root cause, not the secondary issue. Anyone with half a brain can see it isn't that fucking hard to understand.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #7 of 30
Thread Starter 

Ah, the Nirvana Fallacy once again.  Yes, the morality clause is largely bullshit and probably shouldn't exist.  In the meantime, marriage equality would prevent some injustice as well.  In a nation that employs the morality clause, having one segment of the population disproportionately affected because they can't legally marry is flat out discrimination.  

 

Go ahead, fight the morality clause.  Fight the family courts.  In the meantime, prevent these injustices by stopping the disgusting discrimination of marriage inequality.  The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #8 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Ah, the Nirvana Fallacy once again.  Yes, the morality clause is largely bullshit and probably shouldn't exist.  In the meantime, marriage equality would prevent some injustice as well.  In a nation that employs the morality clause, having one segment of the population disproportionately affected because they can't legally marry is flat out discrimination.  

 

Go ahead, fight the morality clause.  Fight the family courts.  In the meantime, prevent these injustices by stopping the disgusting discrimination of marriage inequality.  The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

You can't be for real. No one is suggesting Nirvana. The nation has no right to tell you to not to smoke, drink or cohabitate as an adult and they shouldn't just because you need a divorce. If anything you are simply moving the goal because after gay marriage is granted there will surely be gay divorce and with that there will still be the morality clauses telling consenting adults what they can and cannot do with their lives. Address the cause, not the fallout. This isn't a case of marriage discrimination because the solution shouldn't be necessary to solve the problem. The judge ought not be able to tell anyone they can't cohabitate be they gay or straight and that is true that both can be told that right now. Claiming that heterosexuals have an OUT to the represssion by being forced to marry isn't a solution, it is a punishment. No one should be forced into marriage to avoid the state telling them what to do with their lives. Anyone who isn't a government authoritarian can see this. You shouldn't have to submit your life to government sanction.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #9 of 30
Thread Starter 

Morality clause: probably bad--I haven't seen the arguments in favor of it so I will withhold full condemnation, but I lean toward bad for now.

Homosexuals having no recourse under the current laws of the land: bad.

Heterosexuals having recourse while homosexuals do not: abominable. 

 

I am not saying this is THE reason marriage equality is important.  I'm saying it is ONE reason.  Sometimes you treat the immediate symptoms of a terrible disease as part of a larger overall attack on the cause.  Trumpet would have the patient die from a high fever because an ice bath doesn't address the underlying infection.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #10 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Morality clause: probably bad--I haven't seen the arguments in favor of it so I will withhold full condemnation, but I lean toward bad for now.

Homosexuals having no recourse under the current laws of the land: bad.

Heterosexuals having recourse while homosexuals do not: abominable. 

 

I am not saying this is THE reason marriage equality is important.  I'm saying it is ONE reason.  Sometimes you treat the immediate symptoms of a terrible disease as part of a larger overall attack on the cause.  Trumpet would have the patient die from a high fever because an ice bath doesn't address the underlying infection.

 

Why do you consider someone being forced into marriage to have the state avoid controlling their lives to be a real recourse? You realize this morality clause goes both ways and that the father of these children cannot have anyone staying at his house while the children are there as well. Perhaps they could avoid the problem by getting married but that is completely secondary. This matter comes up for just as many heterosexual people because most people don't want to jump into a marriage after a divorce, especially if kids with their ex are involved and thus there is baggage.

 

You talk about addressing the underlying infection. The underlying problem here is morality clauses and family courts. Being forced into a marriage doesn't address that problem. It ignores it.

 

This was in the article...

Quote:
Price posted about the judge’s ruling on Facebook last week, writing that the judge placed the clause in the divorce papers because he didn’t like Compton’s “lifestyle.”

 

But that claim is without merit. These morality clauses are in lots of divorces and the people involved aren't gay. People are saying give these two the same dignity any other loving couple would get but that is the problem. The family courts don't act with dignity. The courts could and often do treat cohabiting heterosexual couples exactly this way and in many divorces the morality clauses are a standard operating procedure put in by the state.


Edited by trumptman - 5/20/13 at 3:33am

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #11 of 30
Thread Starter 

Why do you assume someone is being forced?  There is a subset of the population that wants to be married and is getting screwed by this law.  You have a real blindspot for them.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #12 of 30
I assume they are being forced because that is the only way to comply with the law. Most people who are divorced don't want to jump right into another marriage and while I can't cite a study for it, I'd bet they cohabitate more before committing to a new marriage. These morality clauses restrict that.

I read another story this morning that was very similar to what you posted about this. It involved an 18 year old lesbian girl being charged due to dating a 15 year old girl. The 18 year old girl declared that she was being prosecuted for being gay. She is probably correct that the parents pursued it for that reason and that is their motivation in reporting the sexual relationship to authorities. However the government isn't prosecuting her for being gay. They are prosecuting her for being an adult and having relations with a 15 year old. It happens to plenty of boys every year and you know I've spoken against such laws there too.

It is important to differentiate between bad law and actual persecution for being gay. Statutory rape laws involving kids a couple years apart or morality clauses in divorce cases are just bad law. They aren't bad law because someone is gay. The fact that someone gay gets caught up in it should just increase the support for changing it.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #13 of 30
Thread Starter 

It's also important to recognize when BOTH are happening.  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #14 of 30

Actually, I think we're seeing more and more reasons why, it is more important to recognize when the state has overstepped the boundaries of what it should have any legitimate authority to do.

 

That point is profoundly muddle today and it is muddle, in great part, because of people like you who do think the government have the legitimate authority to tell people to do (or not do) all manner of things that you don't like, but then expect it to be reigned in and limited on matters that you don't want them ordering people around.

 

The underlying issues here are:

 

1. A clear, logical, consistent and defensible definition and outline of individual rights, and,

2. A clear, logical, consistent and defensible definition and outline of the role, responsibility, authority and limits of the state and its use of force.

 

The problem starts with #1 wherein many people, yourself included, have a rather muddled, inconsistent and, at times, contradictory definition of individual rights. And follows with #2 where many people, yourself included, appear to believe that there are no real limits on state power...well except when you want there to be...and this is applied in a terribly inconsistent, incoherent and often contradictory way.

 

Get those two things straight and people can have liberty (and the wealth and prosperity that comes from it) including the liberty to marry whomever they wish under whatever terms they wish. Now they might not be able to force the baker to make their wedding cake or the photographer to shoot their wedding...but they can join together in union if they wish.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #15 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It's also important to recognize when BOTH are happening.  

 

Sorry but in this instance these bad laws have been on the books for ages. The problem was that they were being applied to men, mostly young men or men to who were getting screwed over by the family court system. No one cared about these laws because per the reasoning of most progressives, men, especially white men, cannot be victimized. It is only when the type of victim changes that we care to examine how terrible these laws happen to be.

 

My mom worked in family law for ages. Most of these morality clauses are being requested by ex-wives to control ex-husbands behavior. They don't want them to drink, swear or smoke around the kids and the most certainly do not want the next girlfriend to be sleeping in his bed.

 

If anything, and I'm sure I've mentioned this before, the rise of homosexual couples being hit by these bad laws will finally get the issue addressed because when two women are involved, there's no infantalized woman who needs protection from some evil man per the reasoning of governments and family courts.

 

Now the real question to ask is why the state is so involved in every aspect of our lives. MJ hits on that and it is the true issue here. Someone can always find a way to have the state sanction their homophobia when the state is involved in every aspect of our lives and it has so many laws and regulations that everyone is a criminal. Be prepaired for stories with headlines like "Gay teen prosecuted by Bloomberg for drinking too large a sugar soda tattled on my neighbors who he thinks hate him because he is gay."

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #16 of 30
Thread Starter 

Blinded by a pet issue, unable to see things are more complex.  I agree the morality clauses are most likely terrible and need further scrutiny.  I also believe it's bullshit that even if a couple wanted to be married, they couldn't if they are in a marriage inequality state, and they would get fucked over by this type of ruling.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #17 of 30

Actually, the real irony here is that you are the one unable to see things are deeper and more complex and you are the one blinded by your pet issue. You look to apply bandages rather than cure diseases and solve root problems thus continuing to allow the disease to destroy while continuing to complain about the symptoms.

 

I've found this to be a common problem with liberals in particular. It's like their brains have not fully developed beyond adolescence or even infancy in which they can only see and focus on immediate, surface issues and get all confused and discombobulated when you  try to explain there are deeper things at play. They then just stomp their little feet and put their little mouths and scream "but I want it!"

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #18 of 30
Thread Starter 

Bullshit, MJ.  I'm the one saying we should investigate ways of treating the hemophilia long term, but the more pressing matter is closing up that cut before the patient bleeds out.  I'm the one saying we should take care of both.  You aren't.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #19 of 30
Thread Starter 

Of course, there's also the irony of the science denier with the imaginary friend & magic sky daddy calling others childish, if you insist on playing that game.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #20 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Bullshit, MJ.  I'm the one saying we should investigate ways of treating the hemophilia long term, but the more pressing matter is closing up that cut before the patient bleeds out.  I'm the one saying we should take care of both.  You aren't.

 

Of course both can and should be taken care of but the reality is that the thread title is the harm caused by anti-gay bigotry and this and the example I provided related to statutory rape, are not examples of that. They are examples of gay people happening to get caught up in the same bad laws and heterosexual people.

 

Please post any follow ups to this story you find BR. Morality clauses are very seldom imposed by a court. They are usually requested by one party and agreed to by both parties in a divorce settlement. Some states or counties include them as defaults but they can be easily taken out. Note that the article states he only enforced the morality clause. He didn't put it in or demand it due to her orientation.

 

Also forcing someone to marry to avoid the morality clause ISN'T taking care of both of the issues. Cohabitation shouldn't be regulated just because you had a divorce. If that were the norm then there would be no problem here. I can understand that you want gay marriage to be legal in Texas but that doesn't mean endorsing the state requiring a cohabitating couple get married just so the adults can both stay in the house. In fact no matter your orientation, it sounds like a complete backwards solution. Why go from the state not allowing marriage to the state dictating it?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #21 of 30
Thread Starter 

They aren't getting caught up in the same way as heterosexual couples, though.  There are a subset of homosexual couples that would like to be married (and aren't being forced into it) but can't, and then are subsequently screwed by this type of clause.

 

You are focusing on those you feel are being forced into marriage.  You are very much ignoring those that want to be married and can't be, and then are fucked by the clause.

 

Saying "here's yet another place where marriage inequality has caused harm" is in no way endorsing the morality clause law.  I think you are unable to wrap your head around that.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #22 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Of course, there's also the irony of the science denier with the imaginary friend & magic sky daddy calling others childish, if you insist on playing that game.

 

I love it when your anger and bitterness take over. We get to see the real you.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #23 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Bullshit, MJ.  I'm the one saying we should investigate ways of treating the hemophilia long term, but the more pressing matter is closing up that cut before the patient bleeds out.  I'm the one saying we should take care of both.  You aren't.

 

You're wrong. I am talking about how to address both problem by addressing the root problem. Again, your facile thinking prevents you from seeing this. You prove my point about being the immature child stomping his feet and pouting and screaming "I want it NOW!!!" You have repeatedly demonstrated an interest only in treating symptoms of the problems society faces.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #24 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

They aren't getting caught up in the same way as heterosexual couples, though.  There are a subset of homosexual couples that would like to be married (and aren't being forced into it) but can't, and then are subsequently screwed by this type of clause.

 

You are focusing on those you feel are being forced into marriage.  You are very much ignoring those that want to be married and can't be, and then are fucked by the clause.

 

Saying "here's yet another place where marriage inequality has caused harm" is in no way endorsing the morality clause law.  I think you are unable to wrap your head around that.

 

 

Nothing about the article indicates their desire to be married. They've been together for three years. They have a fundraising page set up for attorney fees. They don't have one set up to drive or fly them up to a state that allows gay marriage so they can marry and come back down and slap the license in front of the judge. I understand they can't marry in Texas but my own uncle who is gay drove with his partner to Canada and they were wed there when marriage wasn't even legal in one state in the United States yet. If they want to get married, they should focus on that. Instead they are focusing on her having to move out. Find a page to fly them somewhere to get married and I'll even chip in on it.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #25 of 30
Thread Starter 
You want much more support? Don't be angry that travesties of justice are being exposed particularly because they involve gays. Be thankful that the issue has now been given a wider audience--don't alienate that new audience, but rather provide gracious support and then urge that what you feel is an underlying issue also be addressed.

To go back to the metaphor...don't yell and kick and scream at the open wound that helped certain folks diagnose the hemophilia (despite you having suspected or known for a while). Don't withhold bandages and topical coagulants out of spite. Deal with the wound with a good bedside manner and then urge that the underlying disease also get treated.

If you have a problem with the statutory rape laws, just be happy that they are actually being discussed thanks to them affecting a gay teen. Leverage the heightened attention and don't whine about why it's suddenly being discussed. You wanted the discussion. Don't be a whiney jerk because it didn't start the way you wanted it.
Edited by BR - 5/20/13 at 4:16pm

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #26 of 30

"A right-wing historian shot himself dead in front of hundreds of tourists at the altar of Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris today, apparently in protest at France's legalisation of gay marriage.

 

Dominique Venner, who had recently been campaigning against gay marriage in France, is said to have calmly walked past the crowds milling around the 850-year-old Cathedral, one of the most popular tourist sites in the world, before taking out a Herstal automatic pistol.

 

The 78-year-old put the gun in his mouth and fired before collapsing on to the altar, according to French media reports."

~ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2328502/Dominique-Venner-Right-wing-historian-shoots-Notre-Dame-cathedral-protest-gay-marriage.html

 

 

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #27 of 30
Thread Starter 

How can you hate a group of people so fucking much to do that?  That kind of religious fervor is a mental illness.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #28 of 30

That's life.
 

post #29 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

How can you hate a group of people so fucking much to do that?  That kind of religious fervor is a mental illness.

I'm speculating here, but he may have been ill and knew he didn't have long left to live, at least  the way he would like. By taking his life in this way he would get publicity for his cause, and therefore get more people to read about his beliefs, with the hope more people will be persuaded by them. Had he have been younger I doubt whether he would have done it. He didn't at least try to kill his foes too. Maybe his belief in God actually helped prevent him from doing what so many others are willing to do to their enemies? 

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #30 of 30
Thread Starter 

Eh, the last statement is very questionable as there exists plenty of evidence of those who kill in the name of their mythology.  Regardless, he undoubtedly traumatized many witnesses.  

 

Either way, it takes a whole lot of hate to do what he did, even if he were ill.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
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