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Intel outlines upcoming Core i7 'Haswell' integrated graphics, touts up to triple performance - Page 2

post #41 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

My 13" MBP drives the 27" Cinema Display very well. I'm not sure how it could be better.

Could drive Apple's 4K Cinema Display with 1.5x the resolution (2.25x more pixels) of the current Apple Cinema Display.

I've seen a 27" 4K IPS display for as low as low as $2300, and I've seen 50"+ 4K HDTVs for $1300 and $1500. I have to wonder if a Mac Pro update will also get 802.11ac, which also means new AirPort products, and a new Apple Cinema Display, which likely means following the new iMac styling and going with 4K if the availability for quality panels and price points are within reason. I could see them starting with that 27" product for 4K displays, as well as raising the price past $999 for 4K. I think an extra $500 for 4K wouldn't be a deterrent to that customer base.


PS: I don't think the 27" displays will get 2x like all the iPod Touch, iPhone, iPad, 13" MBP and 15" MBPs have received. I think they'll get 1.5x which brings the 2560x1440 display exactly up to the 3840x2160 of UHD 4K. I think Mac OS X has already been made to work with this size without affecting the GUI elements.


PPS: Anyone still holding out hope for a 17" MBP? I do hold a tiny sliver of hope that Apple simply wasn't able to release a 17' MBP because they want the iGPU to be at least capable of pushing the display and it simply wasn't possible to push a 2x 3840x2400 WQUXGA display with Ivy Bridge and/or to get quality panels at a reasonable price last year.
Edited by SolipsismX - 5/2/13 at 6:57am

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post #42 of 136
Is there any performance increase on the CPU, or is it just the GPU? I feel like the CPU is becoming my bottleneck nowadays, because there're very fast GPUs, but the same cannot be said for CPUs (because new applications are getting more and more demanding on the CPU). For example, I'd love to hear that the 3x gain is on the CPU. That would be really appreciated. A 3x increase on the GPU is easy to achieve with a discrete card, so no such need for it.
post #43 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs View Post

Is there any performance increase on the CPU, or is it just the GPU? I feel like the CPU is becoming my bottleneck nowadays, because there're very fast GPUs, but the same cannot be said for CPUs (because new applications are getting more and more demanding on the CPU). For example, I'd love to hear that the 3x gain is on the CPU. That would be really appreciated. A 3x increase on the GPU is easy to achieve with a discrete card, so no such need for it.

1) There are plenty of CPU performance increases. AnandTech is a good source of information on upcoming CPU changes.

2) There are plenty of reasons why a discrete GPU isn't a reasonable option so an increase in the integrated GPU performance and increased power efficiency in my much appreciated.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #44 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacHarry de View Post

Not interested in more performance for the MB Air. Need a better battery

 

Haswell also brings lower TDP and improved power management features, both of which should help to extend operating time. Reducing power consumption is a better solution than providing more battery power.

post #45 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicron View Post

The Air is the only Mac product that uses Intel integrated graphics, correct?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ifij775 View Post


I think Mac mini, too

The 13" notebooks and the mini. I wouldn't be surprised if more went that route at a later date. There are some areas where they're terrible, but people get confused on the issue at times. I'm also not talking about benchmarks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs View Post

Is there any performance increase on the CPU, or is it just the GPU? I feel like the CPU is becoming my bottleneck nowadays, because there're very fast GPUs, but the same cannot be said for CPUs (because new applications are getting more and more demanding on the CPU). For example, I'd love to hear that the 3x gain is on the CPU. That would be really appreciated. A 3x increase on the GPU is easy to achieve with a discrete card, so no such need for it.

Haswell cpu gains look modest. What kind of software do you use? Xeon E/EP is the only thing that isn't focused on IGPs, as they don't include them. You also have no chance of seeing 3x cpu performance in a given generation and in my opinion no chance of seeing it on the gpu either. Go back and look up some of the early Ivy claims.

post #46 of 136
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
The 13" notebooks and the mini.

 

And the 15".

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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post #47 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins View Post

"professional gaming"... oh boy

I'd like to see what it pays.

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post #48 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

PPS: Anyone still holding out hope for a 17" MBP? I do hold a tiny sliver of hope that Apple simply wasn't able to release a 17' MBP because they want the iGPU to be at least capable of pushing the display and it simply wasn't possible to push a 2x 3840x2400 WQUXGA display with Ivy Bridge and/or to get quality panels at a reasonable price last year.

I think there's as much a chance of that as the return of the Xserve, or the dual-linked DVI 30" Cinema Display.

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John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #49 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

I think there's as much a chance of that as the return of the Xserve, or the dual-linked DVI 30" Cinema Display.

I would agree it's highly unlikely, but I think there are certainly more reason and more of a clearly path for the 17" MBP if they choose to bring it back as opposed to those other examples.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #50 of 136

Professional gaming may seem ludicrous, but it's growing fast. 10 years ago Fatality (there's a number in there, but I forget where) and a bunch of South Korean Starcraft players were the only people making a living on it. Now there are hundreds of people making a living on it in the US, tens of thousands in South Korea, many elsewhere. 

 

But...I don't think many are using Macs. And even if they are, they're certainly not using integrated graphics for many games, which is the point the earlier poster was trying to make, I think. Integrated graphics have a very long way to go to catch up with discrete GPUs. 

 

Even aside from professional gamers, there are millions of other people playing the same games and hoping for the same frame rates (not to mention those who are running two or three monitors). A lot of games just aren't playable by those standards on current generations of integrated graphics.

 

We'll see about Haswell and its successors. It used to be (5-15 years ago) the case that games were pushing the hardware, but I think that's less true now. AAA titles' budgets have gotten so high that they can't afford to develop only for the bleeding edge. Integrated graphics might have a chance to catch up. 

post #51 of 136
Originally Posted by Arlor View Post

AAA titles' budgets have gotten so high that they can't afford to develop only for the bleeding edge. Integrated graphics might have a chance to catch up. 

 

The budgets are high because 50% of that is marketing and paying reviewers for higher reviews. Yes, that has an effect on the quality of both gameplay and visuals.


Graphically there aren't really any improvements happening anymore, since games are tailored for consoles first and computers second.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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post #52 of 136
The question that remains is whether or not Apple will use the i7-4900HQ in one of the mini models. I am not so sure they will. Still, I am ready to replace my dual-core Sandy Bridge mini.
post #53 of 136

Assuming that these performance numbers are remotely close to what Intel claims that they are, Apple may not use or may not need to use discreet graphics in the 15" rMBP if they go with the i7-4950HQ.  This could potentially provide a nice boost to battery performance as well.

post #54 of 136

This technology is actually pretty advanced. What they have done is removed the need to go the bus when CPU shares data with the GPU. They put it in main memory, mark it, and then the GPU is allowed to use it. Currently, the CPU can only send data over the bus. I saw some demos of this and it is quite impressive they have been able to come up with this solution.

post #55 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

...

 

Graphically there aren't really any improvements happening anymore, since games are tailored for consoles first and computers second.

 

This isn't true at all. Have you seen the recent improvements in real time ray tracing and rigid body destruction? PC gaming is on a much higher level than consoles. 

post #56 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shameer Mulji View Post

Assuming that these performance numbers are remotely close to what Intel claims that they are, Apple may not use or may not need to use discreet graphics in the 15" rMBP if they go with the i7-4950HQ.  This could potentially provide a nice boost to battery performance as well.

Yeah I am a bit apprehensive there. If they went for just the classic 15" MBP and not the retina then fine. Even still though, I am not so sure.

Also I meant to add the 4950HQ as well as the 4900HQ to my previous post but since there are other replies after mine, I will add that now.
post #57 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

2. The laptop Haswell iGPU is equivalent to a GeForce 650.

 

Do you recall where you heard/read that?

 

Personally I don't really care whether the GPU is integrated or discrete -- it's not like it can be upgraded in a laptop anyway -- as long as it's capable of handling what a user is going to ask of it. If these are, and offer power savings to boot, hooray for Haswell.

 

In my case in particular, "what a user is going to ask of it" is probably more than what a web-browsing hobby photographer will require. Intel's reports of speed increases are encouraging, but I'd still like to know how they compare to discrete alternatives. Knowing where the various Haswell options sit in comparison to well-documented alternatives will help with choosing the right model when the time comes.

post #58 of 136
Intel first announced it in January at some event comparing two side by side laptops. One featured the 650M the other featured Haswell graphics. The 650M was still faster but according to controlled tests by very little.
post #59 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


A betters battery certainly wouldn't hurt. However I currently wouldn't consider an AIR at all due to the terrible processor and GPU performance. It is getting real close to the point where Haswell might make a Mini attractive to me. It all depends upon the exact configuration. All I can say is " Go for it Apple".

 

The **** are you talking about? Ivy Bridge has "terrible" performance? The GPU is also fine for 95% of what people use it for, and a big step up from the last one. I use my Air for absolutely everything, including intensive design work, and it flies through everything like a knife through hot butter. Easily the most responsive computer I've used, has never dissapointed. Yes, if you're constantly rendering video or high end 3D gaming it's not the right choice, but "terrible" performance? Hardly. What exactly do you do that makes the Air insufficient?

post #60 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

PPS: Anyone still holding out hope for a 17" MBP? I do hold a tiny sliver of hope that Apple simply wasn't able to release a 17' MBP because they want the iGPU to be at least capable of pushing the display and it simply wasn't possible to push a 2x 3840x2400 WQUXGA display with Ivy Bridge and/or to get quality panels at a reasonable price last year.

 

I am desperately clinging to my 2009 17" dspite the kybord starting to wear out and the absence of USB3 (which would be really handy for my use) in the faint hope that the larger screen will be resurrected before I'm forced to replace this one. I don't wanna give up a full quarter of what already feels horizontally cramped sometimes.

post #61 of 136
Originally Posted by v5v View Post
Do you recall where you heard/read that?

 

The engineer I know at Intel has said as much (though he's on the Cannonlake team, so Haswell is very old news to him), Intel's marketing has pitched it like that, and Marvin agrees (I'm pretty sure; he said as much in the "next Mac Mini" thread here). Then again, Intel's marketing could be overhyping. *shrug*

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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post #62 of 136
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

Pretty cool.

 

Yup.  Macs are going to be way more "snappy."

 


Originally Posted by drblank View Post

I wonder what Apple has on tap for the next gen ARM chips? I have a few guesses.
 

ARM-based MacBook Air is inevitable.  Some day.  The ARMv8 spec was released in 2011,

and it feature a 64-bit instruction set.  That was the last major technical issue preventing OS X

from running on ARM.  The next hardware step will be building quad-core 64-bit Ax SoCs. 

 

Apple needs to stop paying boutique prices for Intel CPUs.  (AKA "The Intel Tax.")

The benefits would of course be higher margins and/or lower retail pricing.

Yet more bad news for Intel and the brain-dead Ultrabook-making copycats.

Sent from my iPhone Simulator

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post #63 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter View Post

The question that remains is whether or not Apple will use the i7-4900HQ in one of the mini models. I am not so sure they will. Still, I am ready to replace my dual-core Sandy Bridge mini.

True. Even though the mini is AC powered, there are still heat concerns.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #64 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonyo View Post

For current models, the 13" Macbook Pro w/ and w/o retina uses only the intel HD4000 too. The 15" w/ and w/o retina have both the intel HD4000 and Nvidia GT 650M, and auto switch between the 2 on the fly. All current mac mini models use only intel HD4000 as well. All the new-ish imac models use discrete Nvidia graphics chips.

 

My iMac 12,2 aka mid 2011 has the AMD Radeon HD 6970M w/ 2G DDR 5 memory. 

 

IHTH.

post #65 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Don't they already do that with the education iMac?

Oh yeah, I forgot about that model:

http://www.macrumors.com/2013/03/05/apple-launches-1099-21-5-inch-imac-with-3-3-ghz-dual-core-i3-processor-for-educational-institutions/

They use a Core-i3 and it's $200 cheaper. They still put that one up $100 vs the last model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil 
Marvin's quite confident in that, from what he has seen, and I know a guy who works at Intel in the "making the chips that will be released five years from now" department (there's probably a classier name for it) who says the same thing about Haswell.

A speedup of 2.5-3x definitely puts it in league with the 650M. I'm more confident that they'll match the 640M but their graphics demos look pretty good. Their speed improvement graph looks good too:



75x in 7 years averages out to roughly double every year. Assuming it does reach 650M, another 6x and Intel IGPs will match the Titan GPU. I doubt Intel will manage that by 2016 but you never know. I definitely expect that level from NVidia.

Intel's still a bit behind because NVidia will move to the 750M this year. NVidia claims it will be up to 75% faster, I reckon it will be closer to 30-40% faster. Still, great performance at every level, finally.
post #66 of 136

Your point still stands on its own since the Education Macs aren't consumer PCs. Despite the odium toward iGPUs on tech forums I don't think that most consumers care so long as it does what they need it to do. If it was such a problem the 11" MBA, 13" MBA, 13" MBP, and Mac minis wouldn't be as popular as they are.

For me, it's never been an issue since I am not a gamer, and don't edit large images or videos. In fact, the 2012 iMac is my first Mac with a dGPU since my 12" PowerBook circa 2004. That came with a 64MB NVIDIA GeForce FX Go5200. I'd rather have any of the MBP iGPUs than that dGPU.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #67 of 136
I assume this has features that match Thunderbolt 2(did apple have a part in it this time?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetCanada View Post

Retina Macbook Air. They will sell millions.
Yes likely however if retina rises price it might be less, What I hope for is the current one to stay selling(like MacBook Pro) yet at lower price of $700, then this one having a even thinner design! With retina! Reaching a price(at minimum)$1000-1200
post #68 of 136
Originally Posted by shredx1 View Post
I wonder if Apple will put any of these in the MacPro they keep promising to release? 

 

Given that they have until December 31, 2013 to release it under their original promise, there's something wrong with what you're saying.

 


Or would that require Apple to be a serious computer company and not just a distributor of cheap toxic slave labor made Chinese junk?

 

Just shut up and go away.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #69 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

The **** are you talking about? Ivy Bridge has "terrible" performance? The GPU is also fine for 95% of what people use it for, and a big step up from the last one. I use my Air for absolutely everything, including intensive design work, and it flies through everything like a knife through hot butter. Easily the most responsive computer I've used, has never dissapointed. Yes, if you're constantly rendering video or high end 3D gaming it's not the right choice, but "terrible" performance? Hardly. What exactly do you do that makes the Air insufficient?

Yes, my 2010 Air, even with the slower SSD, 1.83ghz Core 2 and nvidia 320M and 2GB RAM runs every desktop app very well. I kept it because it returned a solid 8-10 hours of battery life. Only the 2GB and 128GB of SSD were particularly limiting over time. The current generation Air with the dual core i7 and maxed-out memory is very capable.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #70 of 136
Intel's graphics keep getting better and for Haswell I feel the fastest graphics available from that is perfect for an education model. I still do not feel it is ready for a standard base model quite yet though it is getting there and it needs to have a price drop I feel.

It will also be interesting to see what the 750M can do.
post #71 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by jusephe View Post

Integrated graphics isn't very usefull, but apple must use because of space and energy compustion and even through the 3X gain is nice, it's still not for professional gaming.

I think a solution for Apple is to use an over clocked 16 core G6630 Rouge GPU as standalone discrete graphic. It can achieve performance of mid end graphic cards in about 1 W compustion and its size is just a few dozens of mm^2. They can put it in 13 Mac book retina, 11 inch Mac book Air, maybe even into iPad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

Cool story, bro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins View Post

"professional gaming"... oh boy

While I detest the "professional gaming" reference there are professional gamers although they are more rare than professional athletes and certainly no more ridiculous than an adult paid millions of dollars to play a child's sport. Furthermore, the gaming industry has continuously pressured computing manufacturers to improve their products to accommodate this small but significant market.

The essence of the post, however, was that ARM SoCs are rapidly approaching the processing power necessary for ultraportables and may provide benefits to battery life as well.
post #72 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

No more ludicrous then any other professional sport, at least with this one normal people can participate.

In concept, no more ludicrous, but outside of South Korea, there really isn't much of a profession to computer game playing. Apple doesn't make gamer machines and I just don't see that realistically changing until there is a successful cable channel dedicated to computer gaming.

Any competitive activity will bias towards people that are more gifted, just different gifts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo View Post

"Lim has a record with 548 wins and 416 losses (56.80%)[2] in his professional career. He is one of the highest-paid professional gamers, with annual earnings that exceed $400,000 US Dollars and endorsement contracts that bring in an additional $90,000 per year."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lim_Yo-Hwan

"In 2007, Lee signed a three-year contract with WeMade FOX for approximately 690,000 USD."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Yun-Yeol

In a way, that's not a surprise, Starcraft is like the unofficial religion of South Korea.

I don't think Apple really pays much heed to the gamer enthusiast market, it would take too much to surmount the anti-Mac sentiment that exists in the gamer enthusiast community.
Edited by JeffDM - 5/2/13 at 3:57pm
post #73 of 136

GPU is not just for games.  Just look at Apple's iLife and Pro apps.

post #74 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexDeafy View Post

I don't want any of fucking integrated video card from Intel! They're fucking sucks. I'd rather use Nvidia or AMD's ATI. Any of Mac devices with integrated Intel video card is so FUCKED!

I thought the native language in Texas was English!

This reads like a Dutch kid who has only just started learning English.

post #75 of 136
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
GPU is not just for games.  Just look at Apple's iLife and Pro apps.

 

What about them? Do we really need a Tesla to type some characters? How did the Apple ][ get by?

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #76 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

What about them? Do we really need a Tesla to type some characters? How did the Apple ][ get by?

I have to have a Geforce Titan to play Solitaire. Anyone who thinks this is overkill is dead wrong. 1smoking.gif
post #77 of 136
Originally Posted by Winter View Post
…Geforce Titan…

 

THAT'S IT.

Does Alzheimer's assisted living take people younger than… retirement age? 😖

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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post #78 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

THAT'S IT.
Does Alzheimer's assisted living take people younger than… retirement age? 😖

I was kidding. Relax!
post #79 of 136
Originally Posted by Winter View Post
I was kidding. Relax!

 

No, you're right! I couldn't remember the name of the chip. I can't remember anything. I lose nouns all the time. I used to be so eloquent, and now I just do the verbal equivalent of tripping over my own feet and breaking both shins 20 feet from the finish line of the marathon. I can't remember times or dates, I don't know how long it has been since things occurred and I can't remember any of my old friends. 

 

Why am I telling you people this? I need a depression clinic or something. 

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #80 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

No, you're right! I couldn't remember the name of the chip. I can't remember anything. I lose nouns all the time. I used to be so eloquent, and now I just do the verbal equivalent of tripping over my own feet and breaking both shins 20 feet from the finish line of the marathon. I can't remember times or dates, I don't know how long it has been since things occurred and I can't remember any of my old friends. 

Why am I telling you people this? I need a depression clinic or something. 

Ah I understand. It's no big deal. You could have just been driven insane from debating people on this board who try and reach too far outside the box of what Apple will ever do.

Hope things get better for you soon.
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