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Apple's bond offering will allow it to avoid $9.2B in US taxes

post #1 of 87
Thread Starter 
By issuing bonds to finance its stock buyback, Apple will avoid paying $9.2 billion in taxes to the U.S. government, making its decision to take on debt a "no-brainer."

Despite having nearly $150 billion in cash and investments, Apple decided that taking on debt would be the best way to fund its $100 billion capital return program. That's because most of Apple's cash is held overseas, and returning it to the U.S. to buy back shares and issue a dividend would require repatriation taxes to be applied.

Apple


Apple's borrowing strategy will instead allow the iPhone maker to save the $9.2 billion it would otherwise be required to pay in taxes according to figures compiled by Moody's Investment Services and reported by Bloomberg. The estimates led Gerald Granovsky, senior vice president at Moody's, to refer to Apple's strategy as a "no-brainer."

Currently, about $100 billion of Apple's $145 billion is held overseas.

Apple announced last week that it plans to spend $100 billion in cash by the end of calendar year 2015 on its capital return program. Part of it will involve a 15 percent increase in dividend payouts, but the bulk of the money will go toward a share repurchase program, said to be the largest one in history.

But with Apple's $145 billion in cash, some were surprised that the Cupertino, Calif., company opted to borrow. This week, it sold $17 billion in debt in Apple's first bond offering since 1996. It was a dollar amount record for a U.S. corporate offering.

For its part, Apple has noted that it paid $6 billion in federal corporate income taxes in fiscal 2012. Spokesman Steve Dowling noted that Apple is one of the largest, if not the largest, corporate income taxpayers in the country.

Apple Chief Financial Officer Peter Oppenheimer also laid out some of the benefits to his company in tapping the U.S. debt markets. Speaking during Apple's quarterly earnings conference call last week, he said incorporating debt into the capital structure would offer access to attractively priced capital, would reduce Apple's overall cost of capital, and would be an efficient use of the company's balance sheet.

"We will maintain sufficient domestic liquidity to grow the business and execute capital expenditures and acquisitions," Oppenheimer said. "The program announced today will result in returning an average of $30 billion annually to shareholders."
post #2 of 87

Alternative phrasing: "Apple avoids stupid move that would cost an extra $9.2 billion."

post #3 of 87

Tax avoidance reported as "a good thing". No wonder your deficits will never be reduced...

post #4 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_kola View Post

Tax avoidance reported as "a good thing". No wonder your deficits will never be reduced...

This is why the USA is in debt and the economy is in the toilet. The whole system is insane. This is the "self regulating" economy. Bunch of BS. Why exactly should I love my country for being obsessed with self-destructive, antisocial, sociopathic, greedy stupidity?
post #5 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

Ain't the US financial system grand!  Apple is not allowed to repatriate its cash

 

It is allowed. It just doesn't want to pay the tax. 

post #6 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_kola View Post

Tax avoidance reported as "a good thing". No wonder your deficits will never be reduced...

Every individual and business works to minimize their tax burden based on the tax laws of that year.  There is nothing wrong with making decisions that help with saving on taxes, unless it's breaking the law or hiding money that should be taxed.

 

Now the fact that companies hire lobbyists ensure tax laws have loopholes and special tax breaks is dishonest.  The people need to demand tax laws that are fair to all companies, small and large and don't leave room for unfair tax savings.

post #7 of 87
This is dumb. Steve Jobs is rolling over in his grave. Unless they feel that they can repatriate that cash at a lower tax rate later, they have not only NOT save $9.4 bil but they've also just wasted hundreds of millions that they have to pay in servicing the debt.

For what? So they can please bottom feeding, scum sucking hedge funds? I wish Steve were alive to tell these bone heads where to stick their damn dividend. This cash is the lifeblood of the company and they're draining it. WTF is Cook thinking?
post #8 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

In the same way as it is allowed for me to go 200mph on I95, if I am willing to pay a massive fine.

Do us a favor and don't take the stupid route on this. You are polluting the thread and you know better. Others don't.
post #9 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_kola View Post

Tax avoidance reported as "a good thing". No wonder your deficits will never be reduced...

You forget a detail. Much of the money held overseas was earned from sales overseas and appropriately taxed by the area in question. So being taxed to bring it back to the US would be double dipping which isn't really fair, especially when they want Apple and similar companies to pay the same rates as if they earned the money here. That's why companies are resisting. Reduce the rate and they will consider (depending on how much of a reduction it is). But the US government won't so instead of say 5% on the money they are getting nothing.

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post #10 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

In the same way as it is allowed for me to go 200mph on I95, if I am willing to pay a massive fine.

Speeding is illegal. Keeping $$$ offshore isn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysamoria View Post

This is why the USA is in debt and the economy is in the toilet. The whole system is insane. This is the "self regulating" economy. Bunch of BS. Why exactly should I love my country for being obsessed with self-destructive, antisocial, sociopathic, greedy stupidity?

So I guess you don't take any deductions or tax credits when you did your taxes.
post #11 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCC View Post

This is dumb. Steve Jobs is rolling over in his grave. Unless they feel that they can repatriate that cash at a lower tax rate later, they have not only NOT save $9.4 bil but they've also just wasted hundreds of millions that they have to pay in servicing the debt.

Doubtful, Jobs was the big man when the game of keeping the money overseas in the first place.

And I think your math might be a tad off. I'm sure they considered the issue of bringing home that much cash and paying taxes on it versus all the costs of the loan.

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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post #12 of 87
Don't forget that a large part of that debt is being used to buy back shares that Apple will own and that money will, no doubt, outperform the cost of borrowing and/or the present investment return strategies, plus fewer shares in the marketplace should increase share price. I see this move as a win win move for everyone except the greedy U.S. government who thinks double taxation is, apparently, a good idea.
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See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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post #13 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

In the same way as it is allowed for me to go 200mph on I95, if I am willing to pay a massive fine.

That's a pretty stupid comment - even for you.

There is nothing illegal about leaving the money off shore. There is something illegal about driving 200 mph in I95 (not to mention, of course, that your 1982 Chevy Nova won't go that fast).

Apple is simply making a business decision that is entirely legal and legitimate. Comparing it to breaking the law is foolish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCC View Post

This is dumb. Steve Jobs is rolling over in his grave. Unless they feel that they can repatriate that cash at a lower tax rate later, they have not only NOT save $9.4 bil but they've also just wasted hundreds of millions that they have to pay in servicing the debt.

For what? So they can please bottom feeding, scum sucking hedge funds? I wish Steve were alive to tell these bone heads where to stick their damn dividend. This cash is the lifeblood of the company and they're draining it. WTF is Cook thinking?

That was my original view, but it's far too simplistic. There are a number of reasons why this might make sense:

1. Apple thinks that they might have a use for the money overseas and will never have to repatriate it (i.e., to fund growth in China). In that case, they do save billions of dollars.

2. Apple thinks that there might be a reduction in the tax rate at some time in the future (such as the tax holiday that has been bandied about).

3. If Apple ever has a losing year, they could bring back money tax free by using the losses to offset the repatriation.

4. Future value of money. Even if they have to bring the money back and pay $9.2 B in taxes in 5 or 10 years, there's still the time value of money - and it's probably worth a few hundred million dollars a year to put that off into the future.

When you get into tax matters like this, it gets very complicated. Global business is also very complicated. When you combine the two issues, it can really be a mess. My first thought was the same as yours, but after consideration, it doesn't appear to be a bad move.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #14 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

Speeding is very marginally illegal, and speeding regulations are universally ignored, so speeding tickets are essentially a randomly applied tax. The points you get on your license can be easily removed by investing a little bit more money. The system is totally corrupt, but then, so is the whole tax system.

Going 5-10 mph over the speed limit is ignored. Going 200 mph is not. In any case the tax system is messed up.
post #15 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysamoria View Post


This is why the USA is in debt and the economy is in the toilet. The whole system is insane. This is the "self regulating" economy. Bunch of BS. Why exactly should I love my country for being obsessed with self-destructive, antisocial, sociopathic, greedy stupidity?

nope, its actually a good thing

 

apple selling debt allows organizations with a lot of cash but no place to park it a safe place to invest it

post #16 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

That's a pretty stupid comment - even for you.

There is nothing illegal about leaving the money off shore. There is something illegal about driving 200 mph in I95 (not to mention, of course, that your 1982 Chevy Nova won't go that fast).

Apple is simply making a business decision that is entirely legal and legitimate. Comparing it to breaking the law is foolish.
That was my original view, but it's far too simplistic. There are a number of reasons why this might make sense:

1. Apple thinks that they might have a use for the money overseas and will never have to repatriate it (i.e., to fund growth in China). In that case, they do save billions of dollars.

2. Apple thinks that there might be a reduction in the tax rate at some time in the future (such as the tax holiday that has been bandied about).

3. If Apple ever has a losing year, they could bring back money tax free by using the losses to offset the repatriation.

4. Future value of money. Even if they have to bring the money back and pay $9.2 B in taxes in 5 or 10 years, there's still the time value of money - and it's probably worth a few hundred million dollars a year to put that off into the future.

When you get into tax matters like this, it gets very complicated. Global business is also very complicated. When you combine the two issues, it can really be a mess. My first thought was the same as yours, but after consideration, it doesn't appear to be a bad move.

I think you covered everything there very well.
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post #17 of 87
Very smart. It's not like Apple doesn't already pay a shitload in taxes. Last fiscal year they paid $6B.
post #18 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCC View Post

This is dumb. Steve Jobs is rolling over in his grave. Unless they feel that they can repatriate that cash at a lower tax rate later, they have not only NOT save $9.4 bil but they've also just wasted hundreds of millions that they have to pay in servicing the debt.

For what? So they can please bottom feeding, scum sucking hedge funds? I wish Steve were alive to tell these bone heads where to stick their damn dividend. This cash is the lifeblood of the company and they're draining it. WTF is Cook thinking?

no, there is something called Oracle Financials where you can model stuff like this and the financial impact on the company before you sign on the dotted line

 

where are they supposed to put the cash? cyprus?

post #19 of 87
Apple already paid taxes on ther overseas cash. They just don't want to pay an import fee to move it to the U.S. Good move by Apple.

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post #20 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_kola View Post

Tax avoidance reported as "a good thing". No wonder your deficits will never be reduced...
Yes because spending less isn't an option, only taxing more is. 1oyvey.gif
post #21 of 87
Now that Apple has debt, it is apparently more valuable in enterprise value terms. Doesn't make any sense.
post #22 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysamoria View Post

This is why the USA is in debt and the economy is in the toilet. The whole system is insane. This is the "self regulating" economy. Bunch of BS. Why exactly should I love my country for being obsessed with self-destructive, antisocial, sociopathic, greedy stupidity?

The USA is in debt because the government spends money like a drunken sailor,

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post #23 of 87

As corporations become effective super-national, and start controlling their own micro economies, they will be taxed at lower and lower rates as they buy out government oversight and legislature/parlimentary members.   You think the NRA has strong lobbyists...  just you wait.

 

I think "Islands on the Net"  basically foretells what's going to happen.

 

Nation States cease to exist, or are subordinate to corporate states.   Information will be the new fungible asset, and information 'islands' (e.g. think thepiratebay instead of Grand Caymans Banks) will be the new laundering sites for 'e-coin'

 

Once Visa/Mastercard/Ebay-PayPal/Apple/Google/Amazon figure out how to make their own 'bitcoin' out of encrypted pieces of your data, then watch the the economic anarchy start.  Apple will be able to move 'money' around like encrypted packets on the net, and will own their own NSA to protect-against/attack competitors.   How do you tax information?  Transaction tax?  who owns the internet? corporations.  corporations that start working with Apple et al to 

 

Nations collapse, at best become total pawns (senators are like board members... elected by proxy by the corporation.... not to dissimilar to today), and the corporations buy out the assets (post office (gmail, UPS, FedeX), CIA (blackwater), Medicare (insurance companies), education (for profit schools... how long until Kaplan/UofPhoenix open up High School on the Net, first for at risk kids, then for a state like Montana/Alaska, or a country like Australia or Dubai).  Defense?   That will become corporatized, by corporations buying protection from existing countries, and safe havens will be established to 'fly the flag' , until corporations build up their own defense organizations/police departments/FBIs/NSAs)

 

Civil Rights?   UN commisions maybe, but in the end, you will be a corporate asset, and protected as such, until you're.... expendable.

 

Think about it.

post #24 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

Now that Apple has debt, it is apparently more valuable in enterprise value terms. Doesn't make any sense.

They are in debt to make their stock value more valuable short term...   Between Day Traders and Buy and Hold, there are those that basically want to see a mid term (90-730 day) appreciation.   Apple wants it stock to be valuable as they use it to attract/retain talent, as liquid stock would do.   I figured if the Market Value of Apple got below 300B, (pay 100B, borrow 200B, and keep  40B in the bank for rainy day;-) they would have privatized, but that would have driven a lot of young talent out.  This is the best of both worlds... They are buying at what they see is a low point (400-500/share), expect to go to 600-800/share, and then they can offer grants and options to new talent at a discount, and the current market with buybacks increasing value of their own stock, and the dividends now right at the inflation rate, make Apple a great hedge for a couple years.   The debt is purely a lever to borrow against foreign assets to buy US stock.  Smart Girl.

post #25 of 87
I assume all of you people complaining about how avoiding taxes is immoral declared all of your out-of-state internet purchases on your state tax returns last year so you paid the use tax due? No? Hmm.

Unlike dodging use tax, Apple's action is perfectly legal, moral, and good financial sense. It's like refinancing your house to use some of the equity to buy a car so the interest will be at a lower rate and tax-deductable. They're not avoiding taxes that should be due, they're avoiding incurring taxes in the first place.

What you have to ask yourself is why is America's tax system so business unfriendly that companies even WANT to keep their money overseas instead of here. Suppose we allowed companies to repatriate their cash for FREE. We'd make a TON of tax revenue off Apple's money anyway. Sure, we wouldn't get anything from the initial transaction, but they don't throw it in a vault and swim in it a la Scrooge McDuck. They invest it, they spend it, or they keep it in a bank and the bank invests it. Either way, it's flowing around in the economy and generating tax revenue as it does so. Contrast that to what we're from that money now: nothing.
post #26 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

Now that Apple has debt, it is apparently more valuable in enterprise value terms. Doesn't make any sense.

the debt will be used to buy stock, which is an asset and pays a dividend. and the debt is tax deductible.

 

retailers use short term debt to buy inventory because its cheaper than using cash

post #27 of 87
@igriv: You have to stay here in GERMANY to speed up your sports car as you can. We don't have any speed limit at many highways. You are welcome ;-)
post #28 of 87
Originally Posted by red_kola View Post
Tax avoidance reported as "a good thing". No wonder your deficits will never be reduced...

 

I want to see you paying 99% of your income in taxes, otherwise you're a hypocrite.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

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post #29 of 87
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding (or just misrepresentation) on this topic. Apple *has* paid tax on its overseas earnings, it pays tax in each of the jurisdictions in which it operates. What AAPL is wisely trying to avoid, is a double-taxation situation where it will have to pay *again* on revenues it returns to the US.

You may be of the opinion that AAPL should pay tax multiple times on its profits, but that will put APPL in an unfair position when competing in the global market.

With regard to the comment about AAPL having to eventually repatriate the money in order to service the debt, the issue is much more complex and nuanced that you seem to suggest. In fact, AAPL is significantly wiser adopting this method, as a) there may be tax-free repatriation window in the future; b) the value of debt reduces with time; and c) AAPL is still earning more money than it needs to spend on servicing its business.
post #30 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

 

Yes,  I know, I was in Berlin a year ago, and the drive from Berlin to Zurich is quite refreshing :) (unless it rains, then not so much...)

 'If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough.',- Mario Andretti

post #31 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

In the same way as it is allowed for me to go 200mph on I95, if I am willing to pay a massive fine.

It's not the same at all. When you speed, you break the law. The fine is because of that.

Apple's strategy is not breaking current law, but it is breaking the spirit of the purpose of the tax code and the economy.

Almost no Fortune 500 companies pay Federal taxes most years. This is why the country is broke. Our Congress, especially Republicans, are like Leona Helmsly. She said, "pay taxes? Only the little people pay taxes," but she went to jail for it (for not paying taxes, not for the statement).
post #32 of 87

Let us also not forget that Congress, in addition to not wanting corporations to pay lower taxes when they brought cash back to the US, did not want the repatriated money going to shareholder dividends or stock buyback. I guess Congress won't get its desires on that one also.

post #33 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

I want to see you paying 99% of your income in taxes, otherwise you're a hypocrite.


I wonder, is the actual tax rate closer to 30% than your 300% exaggeration ..hmmmm?

 

The US government should just change the law so that the tax is payable now - repatriated or not - and make it retrospective for the last 10 years - job done.  National debt reduced slightly.

post #34 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_kola View Post

Tax avoidance reported as "a good thing". No wonder your deficits will never be reduced...

Do you not avoid paying taxes you don't have to pay?

post #35 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

It's not the same at all. When you speed, you break the law. The fine is because of that.

Apple's strategy is not breaking current law, but it is breaking the spirit of the purpose of the tax code and the economy.

Almost no Fortune 500 companies pay Federal taxes most years. This is why the country is broke. Our Congress, especially Republicans, are like Leona Helmsly. She said, "pay taxes? Only the little people pay taxes," but she went to jail for it (for not paying taxes, not for the statement).

Apple paid 6 billion. In any case both parties work for corporations and not us.
post #36 of 87
Avoiding to pay tax is not a good thing. But I guess you can't blame them while our government is so incompetent with spending as it is. That could've been $9.2B to help support programs that we *need*, but it'd probably just get lost in the weeds anyway.
post #37 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by nollam View Post

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding (or just misrepresentation) on this topic. Apple *has* paid tax on its overseas earnings, it pays tax in each of the jurisdictions in which it operates. What AAPL is wisely trying to avoid, is a double-taxation situation where it will have to pay *again* on revenues it returns to the US.

This is all there is to it. It is a pure artifact of the fact that most of the rest of (civilized) world uses something called the "territorial" system of taxation, whereby you are assumed to have met your tax obligations in the home country if you're paid it in the host country. For example, if a German company doing business in Singapore paid their (very low) taxes, German tax authorities treat is as taxes having been paid. The company is free to move its money about as it wishes, including back to Germany, with no additional tax penalties.

 

The other system -- which the US, unfortunately, uses -- is called the "worldwide" taxation system. Your host country income is taxed at the home country rate when the money is brought back home. (On the flip side, you do get a tax credit if the host country has a higher corporate tax rate; sadly, the US has among the highest rate for any industrialized country -- most of the world taxes corporations at 20%, but the US rate is 34%).

 

So what do you think rational US companies do with the profits they earn abroad? They don't bring it home. Every US multinational does it, not just Apple.

 

If the US has a fiscal mess, it's totally because of its f'ed up fiscal policies. The problem could be got rid of in one stroke if Obama and the Congress could move to the territorial taxation system that most of the industrialized world uses.

post #38 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb View Post


The USA is in debt because the government spends money like a drunken sailor,


Exactly right. And what does our current President do after getting his increased taxes in January 2013, he submits a budget with more increased spending and higher taxes. My question is that no one answers is how much spending is enough for this government? And let's not forget the monstrosity un-affordable care act, that was suppose to save us all money, we'd get keep our current doctor and more people will be insured, oh guess what none of that is happening, it's just the opposite. So now the people who pushed that complete POS are saying they need more money to fund it, surprise, surprise.

post #39 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

This is all there is to it.

 

[...]

 

If the US has a fiscal mess, it's totally because of its f'ed up fiscal policies. The problem could be got rid of in one stroke if Obama and the Congress could move to the territorial taxation system that most of the industrialized world uses.

In case you haven't noticed the entire world has a fiscal mess on their hands. This single policy change would do very little to mitigate the root cause of troubled world economics. Over population and consumerism gone out of control. 

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post #40 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

This is all there is to it. It is a pure artifact of the fact that most of the rest of (civilized) world uses something called the "territorial" system of taxation, whereby you are assumed to have met your tax obligations in the home country if you're paid it in the host country. For example, if a German company doing business in Singapore paid their (very low) taxes, German tax authorities treat is as taxes having been paid. The company is free to move its money about as it wishes, including back to Germany, with no additional tax penalties.

The other system -- which the US, unfortunately, uses -- is called the "worldwide" taxation system. Your host country income is taxed at the home country rate when the money is brought back home. (On the flip side, you do get a tax credit if the host country has a higher corporate tax rate; sadly, the US has among the highest rate for any industrialized country -- most of the world taxes corporations at 20%, but the US rate is 34%).

So what do you think rational US companies do with the profits they earn abroad? They don't bring it home. Every US multinational does it, not just Apple.

If the US has a fiscal mess, it's totally because of its f'ed up fiscal policies. The problem could be got rid of in one stroke if Obama and the Congress could move to the territorial taxation system that most of the industrialized world uses.

Fascinating. Thanks I always wondered what tf was going on as it seemed to me Apple was paying where earned and paying again seemed weird, I didn't understand the US operated under a different system from Europe.
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