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Apple's bond offering will allow it to avoid $9.2B in US taxes - Page 3

post #81 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post


You are inventing stuff again.   If the overseas income can be taxed on it's remittance to the US, then the US govt clearly has dominion over it - n'es ce pas?

Wrong. Completely, absolutely, totally wrong.

The US government has absolutely no dominion over money earned and kept overseas. They only gain dominion at the time that it's brought into the US.

Once again, if you can't understand even that very simple concept, you have no business discussing the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

I did not make any numerical claims, because I simply don't care about the exact savings Apple derives from its Double Irish with Dutch sandwich (or whatever the currently optimal scheme is). My only point was to point out that the scheme described by Frood is not only plausible, but in fact used by Apple (and not only Apple), as described by the New York Times (which you probably think is another one of Samsung's stooges). Just as your greek chorus anantksundaram, you try to divert the discussion into peripheral technicalities to avoid facing the main point -- since you are not quite as rude as him (that is quite a high bar to clear), I am responding to your post, and not his.

Frood is the one who made the original fraudulent claim that Apple pays only 2% taxes on its US income.

I pointed out that he was wrong (in that and many other things) and gave the correct figure - which is more like 25-30%.

You then chimed in with an article that says Apple pays 2% on its NON-US income and told me that disproved my statement.

Clearly, you're wrong. Paying 2% on non-US income does not mean that they paid 2% on US income.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #82 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

It could make a large difference. Perhaps it might not make a large difference is your criteria is how much the government will get and then be allowed to spend on top of what they borrow and spend now. However those dollars being put to economic use in the United States would be a benefit as well as the dollars of many other companies that could come back into the U.S. Is the $9 billion a small bit compared to what the U.S. government is doing? Yes but the hundreds of billions waiting to return would have an economic effect OUTSIDE of the government. They would be put to use and seeking a return WITHIN our economy instead of outside of it.

So Apple should voluntarily pay more than they are required to? Why not Exxon? Why not GE? Why not you and all the other trolls on AI?

If you want to donate your money to the government, feel free. But don't expect Apple to be giving someone else's (the shareholders) money away.

 

Nope. You've read it wrong. I mentioned that people are thinking about the dollars returning and the difference they will make only in terms of what Apple will bring in terms of tax revenue. They are looking at the $9 billion and declaring that given the size of government spending and borrowing that more taxes taken wouldn't make a large difference. I am noting that if a person stops thinking about government as the solution, they will think about what Apple as a private company could do with the $100 billion being kept over seas in terms of investment and getting a return on it here within the United States. They are thinking of the economic benefit of $9 billion in taxes. I am thinking of another $100 billion in dollars seeking a return within the U.S. economy instead of being kept outside of it.

 

This was in response to a claim that the government tax policy doesn't really cause a big difference in terms of economic activity. I'm saying it is keeping $100 billion out of the U.S. economy and if you did this for all the multinationals I'm sure it would be well over a trillion dollars kept out of our economy to avoid taxation.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #83 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysamoria View Post

I'm poor. My taxes are a non-issue. I essentially have nothing to file. I don't count. What I'm complaining about is how imbalanced the system is and how slanted it is toward the benefit of big corporations. These entities should be contributing more to the country they exist in. Instead, they steal from it by exporting as much employment as possible, so that they're essentially getting all the benefits of conducting business in the USA without actually contributing to the economic infrastructure, taking advantage of the country where they're getting the industrial labor, and getting endless tax loopholes that regular people don't have access to. Why is it still a problem for people to grasp the idea that a larger income should mean greater tax contribution?

We agree the tax system is complex and loophole heavy. People with large incomes already pay a higher tax rate. Close the loopholes.
post #84 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCProfessor View Post

Who knows he might have dropped a z vette engine in that Nova. It would require abit  more imagination than Apple has had lately.

Oh please stop. Sammy imagination turned a 4.5" phone into a 5" phone. Wow. I'm so impressed. /s
post #85 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post

 

Suppose you had $100billion in a bank in the Bahamas, but in order to get that money inside the US, it would be taxed.

 

Now suppose you want $17billion inside the US for whatever reason.

 

You could do this:

Take $26.2 billion out of the bank in the Bahamas.  Bring it in the US.  Pay your $9.2 billion in taxes.  Voila- you have 17Billion inside the US and $73.7billion offshore

 

OR:

Issue a bond for $17billion. Pay 50ish million in underwriter fees and 350ish million in debt service over the life of the bond.

 

Either way you get the same $17 billion.  The first way it cost you $9.2 billion, the second way it cost you about $400 million.  You choose.


Does this mean that Apple is buying the bonds with its offshore money? If it is, doesn't that mean it must repay the money to the offshore entity? If that entity is located offshore Apple is still sending the money to repay the loan offshore. What am I missing about this deal?

post #86 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post



His point about taxation stands. Apple pays taxes when they make their products. They pay taxes when they pay their employees. They pay taxes when they earn a profit. They pay taxes again when they pay a dividend and finally they are told they should pay taxes when they move the monies that would make those profits and dividends from one country to another.

The problem isn't that they don't pay enough taxes.

What taxes do they pay when they make products? None

What taxes do they pay when they issue dividends? None that I'm aware of. It's the receiver of the dividend who pays taxes.

The only taxes Apple pays when they pay employees is their share of Social Security and Medicare. Those aren't income taxes.

They presumably pay taxes on earnings but most Fortune 500 companies find a way not to.

So, while I have no idea how much In income taxes Apple pays, it is not necessarily true that Apple pays a lot of taxes.

And in a lot of their new facilities, they've made deals with the locales to avoid or reduce State income taxes.
post #87 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

What taxes do they pay when they make products? None

What taxes do they pay when they issue dividends? None that I'm aware of. It's the receiver of the dividend who pays taxes.

The only taxes Apple pays when they pay employees is their share of Social Security and Medicare. Those aren't income taxes.

They presumably pay taxes on earnings but most Fortune 500 companies find a way not to.

So, while I have no idea how much In income taxes Apple pays, it is not necessarily true that Apple pays a lot of taxes.

And in a lot of their new facilities, they've made deals with the locales to avoid or reduce State income taxes.

They paid $6 billion dollars in corp income tax. I'm sure they also paid property taxes, sales tax on consumables.
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