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German court strikes down Apple's customer data privacy rules - Page 2

post #41 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

Do the Germans consider the BMW or Benz as overpriced too?

They're domestic vehicles there and even used as taxis.
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post #42 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Apple and Google are very much alike when it comes to their privacy policies. Apple has been fortunate up until now to avoid the level of scrutiny that Google gets.

 

The issue for many of us who know the technical details of information collection isn't solely in the policy, but in the amount and type of information collected.  All I need to do is watch what Ghostery is blocking (Google Adsense and Analytics are part of almost every website) and/or packet sniff Chrome, and/or watch browser tracking after logging into Gmail, to see that Google is collecting a heck of a lot more information about what I'm doing online than Apple is.

 

The thing is that the German courts are only looking at GPS data.  And so, by that measure, Google and Apple are fairly similar.  However, by many other measures, Google is far more invasive.

 
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post #43 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

 

Not sure I would cheer.  Depends on what this decision covers.  For example:

 

Apple depends on anonymous collection of location data in order to build up their database of cell ids and WiFi hotspots.

 

If people have to opt in to allow such collection, non-GPS location services could ultimately suffer.

 

 

Need some clarification here.

 

I had a quick look at the judgement. Not sure whether I'm able to translate the juristic German properly but I'll try to summarize what I understood from my developer point of view.

 

First of all it got clarified that Apple's position. that irish law can be applied because the services for German customers are provided through servers and stuff located in Ireland, isn't valid. 

Apple has to adopt the more stringent German privacy law.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong but the main issue seems to be that Apple wanted a simple, unique data privacy statement for all european countries and took Ireland because a EU policy wasn't finalized in 2011*.

 

Otherwise they would have to create different versions for every country in the EU. 

Now they will have think about to turn the strict German version to a european standard in the hope that there will be no conflict with the terms of other european states.

  

* At dispute was mainly the general terms of conditions from 2011 the data privacy statement references to. These terms of conditions were already changed in the meantime. Therefore the majority of these points are already judged as irrelevant. I think it's worth to mention that this was done because Apple Maps got introduced in 2012 and it's way to deal with location data wasn't covered in the objected version.

 

Before I try to cover the remaining points I just want to remind at the German history from the past century.

Because of terrible abuse of human rights through dictatorial regimes the Germans created the probably most beautiful corpus juris ever written, the German Grundgesetz.

 

We often say that humans don't learn from history, but this basic law really covered all lessons learned from the past. In contrast to many other laws it has a beautiful design, implementing mathematical logic and great clarity and precision. (I attended a lecture about this.)

 

And this precision is what's missing at the other points still not accepted.

 

From the court document:

 

"Auf Grund der Darstellungsweise muss nach der verbraucherfeindlichsten Auslegung…" 

 

can be translated as:

 

Based on the (broad) manner of presentation there will have to be applied the most customer-hostile interpretation…

 

This means that as long as you aren't sufficiently precise about what, how is collected and with whom you share the data it's "implied" that you were so broad in order to leave the door open for possible abuse.

(I chose a drastic formulation with intend)

 

So when there's this location arrow indication location tracking, then it has to be clear to the customer what's going on. If you use location related technology (wifi hotspots etc.) without clear feedback to the user this has to be clarified.

 

From the article: 

 

The decision also blocked Apple giving consumer data to other companies that used it for advertising.

 

That's not what I read at the court document. Under 7. Klausel 9 there's criticized that the broad term "your interest in our products" tries to preserve the possibility to use personalized data for unwanted advertising.

 

There's no word about Apple being a spammer that has to be blocked.

 

Well, I'm no lawyer, but just a dev that tries to educate himself in terms of law.

I'd be happy if a layer chimes in and corrects me if I'm wrong.

 

What's clear to me is that Apple's legal team has to refine the data privacy statements and double down on transparency. The huge problem I see here is that an extensive legal wording might cover the laws but will not help customers to understand those dozens pages of legal mumbo-jumbo I love to hate.

 

I don't think customers are served better by accepting a declaration of agreement nobody gets.

post #44 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex101 View Post

@ThePixelDoctor:

If Germans feel Apple is evil then it's because of the price of their products which are generally viewed as overpriced. An advertising slogan called "Geiz ist geil" (translates to something like "Stinginess is awesome") by an electronics chain store a few years ago has since become a mentality for lots of people. They ask themselves: Why pay €700 for an iPhone when you can get an iPhone-like device like the Galaxy S3 for €500? They don't see the extra value but rather lower their sights to save a few bucks. It's something that bugs me personally but a cheaper iPhone might do wonders for Apple here anyway. 

 

As for data privacy, I don't think the public sees Apple as a big issue yet. They haven't made huge headlines in the mainstream media because of it like Google (Street View) or Facebook (unintentional public Facebook events turned 5000 people rager) have.

 

Overall, it's pretty easy to accuse a company of data privacy wrongdoing. The hard part? Throwing together a solid case with actual proof.

 

How much is an (8GB*) Galaxy S4?

 

Seeing as how the S3 is now comparable to the iPhone 4S (previous models).

 

*based on available user memory.

 

 

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post #45 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

 

This is not about what apps do with the info.

 

It's about Apple's policy for its own internal use of private information.   For example, collecting info without explicit approval, even if you just shared a photo to someone's email address:

 

"When you share your content with family and friends using Apple products, send gift certificates and products, or invite others to join you on Apple forums, Apple may collect the information you provide about those people such as name, mailing address, email address, and phone number."

 

...and using location services for multiple purposes...

 

"To provide location-based services on Apple products, Apple and our partners and licensees may collect, use, and share precise location data, including the real-time geographic location of your Apple computer or device. This location data is collected anonymously in a form that does not personally identify you and is used by Apple and our partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based products and services. For example, we may share geographic location with application providers when you opt in to their location services."

 

As far as I can tell, the people's lawyers persuaded the Court that location data was implicitly not anonymous.  

 

I'm not giving my own opinion here, btw, but simply trying to explain the German one.

 

"I want you to deliver this gift to my mum"

 

"Where do you want us to send it?"

 

"Under the law I am not required to give you that information".

 

Checkmate, stupidity wins.

 

Have you ever opted out of location services for a GPS App?

 

It doesn't know where you are so doesn't work very well, Google Maps for instance always opens at Stonehenge.

 

Checkmate, stupidity wins.

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post #46 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex101 View Post

@ThePixelDoctor:

If Germans feel Apple is evil then it's because of the price of their products which are generally viewed as overpriced. An advertising slogan called "Geiz ist geil" (translates to something like "Stinginess is awesome") by an electronics chain store a few years ago has since become a mentality for lots of people. ...

 

I think you are either just making this up or exaggerating freely here.  

 

The concept of a "stingy" German who prioritises cheapness goes against everything I know about Germans, and the entire history of Germany as a manufacturing nation.  It also describes a type of person who is opposite to every German I have ever met or personally known.  

 

I think you have mixed up Germany with Scotland.  

post #47 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


They're domestic vehicles there and even used as taxis.

 

So overpriced, like here in Australia where they aren't "domestic" vehicles.

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post #48 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

I think you are either just making this up or exaggerating freely here.  

The concept of a "stingy" German who prioritises cheapness goes against everything I know about Germans, and the entire history of Germany as a manufacturing nation.  It also describes a type of person who is opposite to every German I have ever met or personally known.  

I think you have mixed up Germany with Scotland.  

It's actually "stinginess is cool"

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/07/01/stinginess_is_cool

It's not cheapness but more of a propensity to save their money, frugal is more appropriate.
Edited by dasanman69 - 5/7/13 at 3:26pm
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post #49 of 61
It's really pathetic to watch some of you attack the German courts for enforcing consumer and privacy laws that are what the public want and expect. I respect the Germans because at least there the people, and not big business, rule.
post #50 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lerxt View Post

It's really pathetic to watch some of you attack the German courts for enforcing consumer and privacy laws that are what the public want and expect. I respect the Germans because at least there the people, and not big business, rule.

Liquidate all your assets to cash, take the cash and go live in a cave, deep in the forest, don't own a vehicle or phone, use cash as you need it then you can be truly free.

Or you could compromise a bit by participating in what a technological society has to offer.
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post #51 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


Liquidate all your assets to cash, take the cash and go live in a cave, deep in the forest, don't own a vehicle or phone, use cash as you need it then you can be truly free.

Or you could compromise a bit by participating in what a technological society has to offer.

 

Sorry hill60, but this is the same kind of unsuitable hyperbole like the Allthingsd headline "German Court Slams Apple on Privacy".

 

I'm all for reasonable privacy but what the Germans privacy groups often do is  counterproductive. I have spoken to a german web developer who said that Adsense and Adwords are considered illegal in Germany, but everybody uses it. It's not Google that get's sued but website owners and hosters.

 

So why create laws that aren't applicable in first place?

 

Where I agree with you is that the German jurisdiction seems to be weirdly disconnected from reality in this case. In contrast to the Grundgesetz those laws are simply poorly crafted.

 

These things remind me at those software specification sheets I often get which look like a fantasy wish list. When you then discuss the points you hear "we have no clue, but you are the specialist, so it's your problem to do it right."

 

The other thing that really bugs me at this judgement is to dismiss broad statements with the reasoning that "the most customer-hostile interpretation" has to be applied.

 

Where do we get if we put every company and every single human under general suspicion? That's sarcastic and I'd laugh if it wouldn't be that sad.

 

This BS bingo between privacy- and company-lobbyists has to stop ASAP. As a dev I want clear, applicable rules I can rely on. And those rules should be equal for anybody.

 

Asking German privacy advocates why they mostly pick on Apple I get the answer that they think Apple should take the cutting edge. I'd love the see that Apple takes the cutting edge here, but the privacy groups should also be willing to collaborate objective and well educated at this matter.

 

Damn this is about daily rules and not rocket science.

 

post #52 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

 


 

Have you ever opted out of location services for a GPS App?

 

It doesn't know where you are so doesn't work very well, Google Maps for instance always opens at Stonehenge.

 

 

 

That is extremely funny.
 

post #53 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

I think you are either just making this up or exaggerating freely here.  

 

The concept of a "stingy" German who prioritises cheapness goes against everything I know about Germans, and the entire history of Germany as a manufacturing nation.  It also describes a type of person who is opposite to every German I have ever met or personally known.  

 

I think you have mixed up Germany with Scotland.  

 

 

It seems to me ( I am cautious, I am not German, what I say should be confirmed by German member(s)) that one of the characteristics of German market is that there is no place for medium range products : every product has to be positioned, either on the low end, low price side, or the other way around, but nothing in between. I believe other markets rend to come closer to this pattern, more and more. Depending on his/her priorities, a given person may privilege one of these two extremes, but not necessarily always the same, depending on the type of product.


Edited by umrk_lab - 5/8/13 at 7:09am
post #54 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


Do the Germans consider the BMW or Benz as overpriced too?

 

No, just as expensive. I'm not sure why it's different with Apple but you read the overpriced argument a lot on message boards and blogs in Germany.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

 

How much is an (8GB*) Galaxy S4?

 

Seeing as how the S3 is now comparable to the iPhone 4S (previous models).

 

The S3 dropped to €299, the S4 retails for around €600 (in limited supply though).

iPhone 5 16GB: €600, iPhone 4S 16GB: €540, iPhone 4 8GB: €350

 

Like I said, a cheaper yet more powerful iPhone than the one from two, three years ago in the €400 range would do wonders for Apple here. As much as I like my 4, I wouldn't really recommend it to anyone anymore at this point. You'll get more bang for your bucks in the Android camp, sadly.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

I think you are either just making this up or exaggerating freely here.  

 

The concept of a "stingy" German who prioritises cheapness goes against everything I know about Germans, and the entire history of Germany as a manufacturing nation.  It also describes a type of person who is opposite to every German I have ever met or personally known.  

 

I think you have mixed up Germany with Scotland.  

 

Like dasanman69 said, it's not cheapness! Don't get it mixed up. Stinginess is more about looking for the most value while spending as little as possible. You know you can't get a good smartphone for a cheap price of like €100, for €400 the choices are much more solid though. The question Apple failed to answer in advertisement so far is: Why spend an additional €200 or more on an iPhone when a Samsung can do WhatsApp, Facebook and voice calls just as well?

 

I had to recommend a Nexus 4 to a female friend of mine recently because with €349 it's almost half the price of an iPhone 5 and still €200 cheaper than an iPhone 4S. Don't get me wrong, as a heavy smartphone user I do get the extra value of an Apple smartphone (OS, apps, build quality, support, service), it just doesn't matter that much for the average user to justify the distinctly higher price tag.

 

And this "Stinginess is cool" mentality applies to virtually every aspect in life, in the mindset of people from the lower and middle class at least.

By the way, the electronics chain store that thought of "Stinginess is cool" now uses the slogan "Dauertiefpreis". It translates to something like "Permanent budget price". It's still a relevant topic these days. I bet most, if not all Germans know the company behind these advertising claims. 

post #55 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex101 View Post

Once we saved all Southern European countries from national bankruptcy, we'll try again, I promise. 1wink.gif

Now that was a "geil" reply! 1biggrin.gif

RE: Geiz ist Geil or "Stinginess is awesome" comment.

Yes... unfortunately, Media Markt really did a wonderful brainwashing didn't they? But I must disagree with a less expensive iPhone here, because I just don't see it ever being inexpensive enough.

This was recently on Chip.de:

Galaxy Fame: Android-4.1-Handy für 160 € bei Aldi
Aldi Nord verkauft ab sofort das Android-Smartphone Samsung Galaxy Fame GT-S6810P für rund 160 Euro ohne Vertrag und ohne SIM-Look. Mit in diesem Kaufpaket liegt ein Bluetooth-Headset sowie eine 32 GByte große Speicherkarte.

Quick highlight translation: That's a 4.1 Android for €160,00 ($210.00) without a contract or SIM Lock. There's also a BT headset plus a 32gb Flash card included.

A PAYG sim will run about another $20.00/month.

Also as any German already knows, but it should be clarified, Aldi is probably the most trusted company in the country. Literally everyone does their grocery shopping there... and I'm not exaggerating in the least: 98% of everyone!?! If Aldi has it = it's surely the best price and/or product for your money.



Ugly-ass bugger sure... but at that price and many other Android cells (handy) on the market for not much more, I don't see Apple cracking this. Not even with a far better designed iPhone. Possibly an accessory or something else.

The people that want an iPhone and know why, have them. Of course that's quite a few business people that have the opportunity to deduct it from their taxes. Just like the flood of newer Mercedes, BMW's and Audi's racing down the Autobahn: not a lot of private individuals can afford them over the last few years. That's why ever more Kia, Hyundai, Toyota cars are visible. When I landed here over 20 years ago, hardly an Asian car on the road... and only a few scattered Volvos, Renaults, Fiats, or "other" European makes.

The analogy does hold water as compared to the iPhone AFAIC.

* I'm dreading someone calling me to help them with that sorry sucker phone... eeeee! 1oyvey.gif
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post #56 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

I think you are either just making this up or exaggerating freely here.  

The concept of a "stingy" German who prioritises cheapness goes against everything I know about Germans, and the entire history of Germany as a manufacturing nation.  It also describes a type of person who is opposite to every German I have ever met or personally known.  

I think you have mixed up Germany with Scotland.  

And I don't think you've ever visited Germany... or the traditional stingiest people in the State of Baden-Württemburg... which is the home to both Mercedes and Porsche oddly enough.

No, sadly alex101 or myself are not making this up.

German Slang Lesson: Geil can mean awesome or cool.. but also means "horny" of the "hard and/or wet variety*. Anyway... more than just plain....well... horny. 1cool.gif Not recommended usage in a business conversation, interview, presentation or among older relatives of girlfriends (no... don't say that!). It was definitely a shocker when the ad campaign hit... and quite memorable for the debate surrounding even allowing it.
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post #57 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

Also as any German already knows, but it should be clarified, Aldi is probably the most trusted company in the country. Literally everyone does their grocery shopping there... and I'm not exaggerating in the least: 98% of everyone!?! If Aldi has it = it's surely the best price and/or product for your money.



Ugly-ass bugger sure... but at that price and many other Android cells (handy) on the market for not much more, I don't see Apple cracking this. Not even with a far better designed iPhone. Possibly an accessory or something else.

 

The Galaxy Fame actually got a pretty good review on Phone Arena.

 

" Thanks to its pebble-like shape, the smartphone is a delight to handle and operate, especially since its curvy body makes it fit perfectly in the hand. Plastic is what the device is made out of, but it lacks the cheap feel that entry-level phones are usually associated with. Quite the opposite, the Galaxy Fame feels pretty solid in the user's palm due to its sturdy construction."

 

The synopsis was that "... it's a nice entry-level device that will probably get the attention of the younger crowd and the ladies, in particular. We are genuinely pleased with its design and the good quality of its photos is a nice addition to its feature set. Just make sure your eyes can handle its low-quality display before reaching for your wallet."  (Note: 320x480)

 

I repeated all the above to point out that, these days, a $200 smartphone isn't a terrible device by any means.  Is it a $600 phone?  Of course not.  But it's cheaper and more powerful than the iPhone 3GS, and people had no problem using that one.

 

Most people think that Apple won't even try to compete in the $200 price range.  The next step up is the $300 area, and that gets you an unlocked Nexus 4, with a 4.7" screen.

 

So what would Apple do (assuming they made a "inexpensive" phone).  Stick to the $350 range with the same 4" screen?  Hard to tell.

post #58 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex101 View Post

No, just as expensive. I'm not sure why it's different with Apple but you read the overpriced argument a lot on message boards and blogs in Germany.


The S3 dropped to €299, the S4 retails for around €600 (in limited supply though).
iPhone 5 16GB: €600, iPhone 4S 16GB: €540, iPhone 4 8GB: €350

Like I said, a cheaper yet more powerful iPhone than the one from two, three years ago in the €400 range would do wonders for Apple here. As much as I like my 4, I wouldn't really recommend it to anyone anymore at this point. You'll get more bang for your bucks in the Android camp, sadly.


Like dasanman69 said, it's not cheapness! Don't get it mixed up. Stinginess is more about looking for the most value while spending as little as possible. You know you can't get a good smartphone for a cheap price of like €100, for €400 the choices are much more solid though. The question Apple failed to answer in advertisement so far is: Why spend an additional €200 or more on an iPhone when a Samsung can do WhatsApp, Facebook and voice calls just as well?

I had to recommend a Nexus 4 to a female friend of mine recently because with €349 it's almost half the price of an iPhone 5 and still €200 cheaper than an iPhone 4S. Don't get me wrong, as a heavy smartphone user I do get the extra value of an Apple smartphone (OS, apps, build quality, support, service), it just doesn't matter that much for the average user to justify the distinctly higher price tag.

And this "Stinginess is cool" mentality applies to virtually every aspect in life, in the mindset of people from the lower and middle class at least.
By the way, the electronics chain store that thought of "Stinginess is cool" now uses the slogan "Dauertiefpreis". It translates to something like "Permanent budget price". It's still a relevant topic these days. I bet most, if not all Germans know the company behind these advertising claims. 

Red = Oops! I guess I let that cat out of the bag early. 1tongue.gif

BTW: Very nice post.

Bolded = and that's exactly what I'm running up against as well... it's all about WhatsApp, Facebook, SMS-texting and a bit of email checking. People only using those few apps... even on iPhones! At the price of an iPhone... even those used on Ebay... I'm truly and honestly have no other choice than to suggest an Android according to the wishes and stated needs of my extended client list (wives, kids, girlfriends, etc. of business associates). I recently read it's currently in Germany 73% Android at the moment, and I really do not see Apple turning that around any time soon... even WITH a less expensive iPhone. They'd almost have to cripple it so badly, that they would catch a lot of bad press for that alone.

See my above post with the Aldi-Phone. That's darn near unbeatable, even if it is a clanker.... 1oyvey.gif
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post #59 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

The Galaxy Fame actually got a pretty good review on Phone Arena.

" Thanks to its pebble-like shape, the smartphone i
s a delight to handle and operate, especially since its curvy body makes it fit perfectly in the hand. Plastic is what the device is made out of, but it lacks the cheap feel that entry-level phones are usually associated with. Quite the opposite, the Galaxy Fame feels pretty solid in the user's palm due to its sturdy construction."


The synopsis was that "... 
it's a nice entry-level device that will probably get the attention of the younger crowd and the ladies, in particular. We are genuinely pleased with its design and the good quality of its photos is a nice addition to its feature set. Just make sure your eyes can handle its low-quality display before reaching for your wallet."  (Note: 320x480)


I repeated all the above to point out that, these days, a $200 smartphone isn't a terrible device by any means.  Is it a $600 phone?  Of course not.  But it's cheaper and more powerful than the iPhone 3GS, and people had no problem using that one.

Most people think that Apple won't even try to compete in the $200 price range.  The next step up is the $300 area, and that gets you an unlocked Nexus 4, with a 4.7" screen.

So what would Apple do (assuming they made a "inexpensive" phone).  Stick to the $350 range with the same 4" screen?  Hard to tell.

Nice find KD, and while we can often disagree on a number of things here, your assessment of the inexpensive market I will give 2 Big Thumbs Up!

Apple would do well to leave that end of the market alone... and really beef up the next "real" iPhone... and even go up-market with the addition of a larger screen size model. The profits at the bottom here are probably next to zero, and it will never be cheap enough. Let Samsung, LG, Huawei, Nokia knock themselves out... just not worth it.
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post #60 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex101 View Post

No, just as expensive. I'm not sure why it's different with Apple but you read the overpriced argument a lot on message boards and blogs in Germany.


The S3 dropped to €299, the S4 retails for around €600 (in limited supply though).
iPhone 5 16GB: €600, iPhone 4S 16GB: €540, iPhone 4 8GB: €350

Like I said, a cheaper yet more powerful iPhone than the one from two, three years ago in the €400 range would do wonders for Apple here. As much as I like my 4, I wouldn't really recommend it to anyone anymore at this point. You'll get more bang for your bucks in the Android camp, sadly.


Like dasanman69 said, it's not cheapness! Don't get it mixed up. Stinginess is more about looking for the most value while spending as little as possible. You know you can't get a good smartphone for a cheap price of like €100, for €400 the choices are much more solid though. The question Apple failed to answer in advertisement so far is: Why spend an additional €200 or more on an iPhone when a Samsung can do WhatsApp, Facebook and voice calls just as well?

I had to recommend a Nexus 4 to a female friend of mine recently because with €349 it's almost half the price of an iPhone 5 and still €200 cheaper than an iPhone 4S. Don't get me wrong, as a heavy smartphone user I do get the extra value of an Apple smartphone (OS, apps, build quality, support, service), it just doesn't matter that much for the average user to justify the distinctly higher price tag.

And this "Stinginess is cool" mentality applies to virtually every aspect in life, in the mindset of people from the lower and middle class at least.
By the way, the electronics chain store that thought of "Stinginess is cool" now uses the slogan "Dauertiefpreis". It translates to something like "Permanent budget price". It's still a relevant topic these days. I bet most, if not all Germans know the company behind these advertising claims. 

There must be a lot of tax in Europe, an iPhone 4 is around $400 in Australia.

The S4 (LTE) is $850, iPhone 5 $800.

Although you can pick up a non-LTE S4 for less, none of the carriers sell them.
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post #61 of 61

In case someone is still watching this thread, here some interesting stuff:

 

http://hankjohnson.house.gov/press-release/rep-johnson-introduces-apps-act-privacy-bill

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