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Adobe customers' opinions split as company shifts to subscription platform - Page 2

post #41 of 85
About a year ago I legally purchased the education edition of Creative Design Suite 5 for $65 with a free upgrade to CS 6. It was a one-time sale from Adobe. It is difficult to see the advantage of spending $20 per month for minimal upgrades to CS 6. I'll keep CS 6 for the next ten years and save $2535.

About twice a week I get updates from Adobe for some specific component. This happens on both of my Macs. As long as CS 6 keeps working on whatever OSX system is released, I will be content. I have taught university students to use these programs for the past 20 years, but this CC may be a little expensive for most universities.
Edited by Fithian - 5/8/13 at 4:54am
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post #42 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwoloszynski View Post

I plan on sticking with Pixelmator, I moved there and I'm not looking back.  

 

Sorry Adobe, but for $15, I have all the tools I need.  Cheaper than a single month of Adobe rentals!

 

Sorry Microsoft, but I have Text Edit for free. Way cheaper than MS Word!

 

Sorry Apple, but I got iMovie for free. Way cheaper than Final Cut Pro!

 

Sorry Avid, but I can download Audacity for free. Way cheaper than Protools!

post #43 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

That's what their cloud services are for. They give you server storage and $20,000 worth of fonts among other things. It's sort of like paying $10-50/month for Dropbox (something that never changes).

 

That's a pretty weak definition of providing a service. To me a service is something involving a person - an expert in a given field - giving you advice or bespoke solutions.
 
What they are really selling is tools. Ok, their cloud is maintained by IT people, who are experts, but do you really want a different cloud for all your different tools? Wouldn't you rather have a single cloud run by experts at running a cloud, e.g. Google, Amazon? 
 
The service-provider in this case is the client/graphic artist and Adobe is just a tool vendor. Providing tools is not a service unless they start providing bespoke solutions to individual clients, but as far as I can see they just give everyone the same programs.
post #44 of 85

This sounds more like a paid advertisement....
 

post #45 of 85
I don't know what pisses me off more. That Adobe is ripping its customers off this way, or that they are sending shills to register and post their first ever comments singing the praises of Creative Cloud.
post #46 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2P View Post

I'm philosophically opposed to renting software. We've been discussing the great advantages of Creative Cloud for the past year. And there are some - but not enough to overcome my opposition to renting software. Theft aside, because really are we to be punished for some P2P site that gives it away? I thought that Adobe had a way to peak at your serial number every once in awhile to make sure you're legal?

 

Regardless, it's was just under $600 to upgrade from CS5/CS5.5 to CS6. We upgrade once every two years - our costs are doubled.

 

At home, I rarely use anything but PS so I'm still working on CS4 (regardless, I work at work and CS4 is fine... although I'll upgrade to CS6 now).

 

This is a move that will (continue) to boost profits at Adobe (up last year substantially -- because of Creative Cloud, I assume).

this has nothing to do with piracy. most of the people that torrent this do it for personal use and are not the target market.

 

this is to make their customers pay every year so they can fire their sales force and cut down on reseller costs

post #47 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post



The Creative Cloud allows you to put apps on two computers too. This means you can run the Mac and Windows versions so if you have a Windows-only plugin, you can use it in a workflow.
It's partly about creating a more sustainable business model like Apple has with the App Store. If you think way down the line, where's the profit going to be? It's in services and content.

You can see this right now. Companies like Avid are hovering on the edge of bankruptcy because they are sticking with the route of high payment, software-as-a-product model. Once you have a version that works, why would you ever upgrade? That's great for the customer but terrible for the business. So what's the problem? Well, if that company goes out of business, how is that good for the customer?

Microsoft has a subscription service now too for Office. Avid should consider doing the same - they can even offer cloud services for sharing dailies and projects. So should all the high-end software providers. Over time, some can consolidate like what happened with TV subscriptions.

 

Autodesk and The Foundry have subscription models too, although they don't cover the initial cost per seat. The subscription portions cover support and updates, but up front licensing fees are still high. The really annoying thing with such a model is that developers may push legacy bug fixes out further, as they're being paid anyway. Without that more people stick to versions that are stable. It could have somewhat of a positive effect if this means Adobe will assign resources to providing such bug fixes and making refinements to some of the staple tools in each application rather than adding convenience features that half work. I think many people would appreciate solidified versions of the current software. I should mention that the known bug lists are actually quite short for a lot of these software packages, but there are many things that work in strange ways or simply run choppy on hardware that isn't being fully taxed.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

this has nothing to do with piracy. most of the people that torrent this do it for personal use and are not the target market.

 

this is to make their customers pay every year so they can fire their sales force and cut down on reseller costs

 

They already cut reseller costs. Upgrades were only available through Adobe as of CS6 where some of them were cheaper through resellers in the past. If distribution is digital only, there is no reason they can't restrict it to direct sales either way. I suspect the bulk of their sales comes from structured businesses rather than one man design teams. As you pointed out piracy means very little here. I doubt this will even prevent it. I'm not sure whether it's all personal use. I suspect personal use + people in third world countries where the ratio between service rates and software costs might be rather poor. I don't think changing the distribution model will fix that.


Edited by hmm - 5/8/13 at 6:57am
post #48 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

I don't know what pisses me off more. That Adobe is ripping its customers off this way, or that they are sending shills to register and post their first ever comments singing the praises of Creative Cloud.

You better not be aiming that "shill" claim at me. I just happen to be not only a user, beta tester and purchaser of Adobe's products for over 20 years, but have made my career with their tools and continue to do so, spending in the high 5 figures (a few times only for friggin' fonts as someone mentioned!) along the way.

May I add, such as I have, and still do with Apple's products.

As a career designer and consultant... the thing I hate the worst whether discussing Apple or in this case Adobe, the absolute BS, FUD, and misinformation that people spew. I spend a far larger amount of my time, dispelling untruths from a bunch of headline-grabbing, Internet-bitching, blog-bastards... than I do on the virtues of the product/services I'm suggesting to my clients.

Might I also point out that it is America's Justice System and lack of diligence, specifically when they allowed Adobe to purchase Macromedia and not seeing that they were creating a services/product quasi-monopoly. I mean quasi... only because there are still other alternatives out there, so NO... Adobe is NOT a monopolist. Funny how the first time Aldus was eaten up, the courts were just a bit more leery of allowing this much control over an entire industry and the tools to do their jobs.

Their are many things I dislike about Adobe and their software (bugs, bugs, and more bugs!)... as well as some things I'm not thrilled with from Apple's efforts. However, the alternatives to either one of those companies products is not only painful, but down right masochistic if you can't afford to play the game. As with Macs, iPhones, iPads... and now Adobe software... there are other choices. They're just not as nice to work and play with.
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post #49 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

this has nothing to do with piracy. most of the people that torrent this do it for personal use and are not the target market.

this is to make their customers pay every year so they can fire their sales force and cut down on reseller costs

Boy are you ever naive. There are entire COUNTRIES with probably not many more than a few thousand legit licenses, amid a sea of multi-user businesses and media companies looking at those that legally license as if they've gone seriously full-idiot!

You'd be shocked at the piracy statistics outside of America...!
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post #50 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post


How is that? Once again: please read the CC FAQ on Adobe.com. You do NOT need to use the cloud storage or bonus services at all. You can (and should!) still save to your own storage media

 

When people talk of loosing access to their content, they're not talking about loosing physical access to the actual digital files.  They're talking about no longer being able to open, edit or update anything due to proprietary file formats.  

This is the biggest sticking point for me.  I mainly use Photoshop, but I do use the other suite programs often enough to purchase the entire Master Collection.  Premiere, After Effects, Illustrator, InDesign... I use them maybe 2 to 3 times a month, and the current features will easily serve my needs for the foreseeable future.  I can justify a one-time outlay of $2300 for all those capabilities, but I absolutely can't justify an endless monthly access fee for them, primarily because there's zero value at the end of the day.

If Adobe really cared about providing value, here's what they'd do:

For new customers, if you've been a current, continual, Creative Cloud customer for 4 years, you can stop your subscription at any time and retain a perpetual license to whatever the latest version(s) were at the time your subscription ended.  At $50 a month over 4 years, a customer would have paid the same as buying the Master Collection outright.

For existing customers who transition from a full perpetual license to Creative Cloud, if they maintain a continual subscription for 2 years, they too can stop the service and retain a perpetual license to use the latest version at the time of the service termination.  At $50 over 2 years, a customer would have paid the same as continually upgrading to the latest full suite.

In either case, if a customer restarts their subscription within a year, they must maintain that service for 1 year to regain perpetual license rights upon a termination.  If they wait between 1 to 2 years to restart, they must maintain it for 2 years, if they wait between 2 to 3 years, they must maintain it for 3 years, and if they wait over 3 years, they start over - having to maintain the subscription for 4 years to gain perpetual license rights. 

This would resolve the major issue of the subscription model, which is the fact that as soon as the service ends, you're left with nothing.  It would roughly equal what customers pay now for perpetual licenses, and any higher cost over the long term could be justified by the value in always remaining current with versions and features.   And, finally, it would give long term, loyal customers residual value if/when service is stopped. 

Without perpetual rights upon subscription termination, this is an obvious scheme to hold people's work hostage and compel a continual ransom payment.  End of story. 

post #51 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post


Boy are you ever naive. There are entire COUNTRIES with probably not many more than a few thousand legit licenses, amid a sea of multi-user businesses and media companies looking at those that legally license as if they've gone seriously full-idiot!

You'd be shocked at the piracy statistics outside of America...!

 

There's a lot of piracy, yes, but as I and several other people have noted above, Creative Cloud will do precisely nothing to stop it. The apps are still installed and running locally, and you can save your data locally, so pirates will have no trouble at all cracking whatever online security features are in it. 

 

Until the day that Adobe actually processes your data (filters, transforms, complicated calculations) in the cloud and not on your local computer, their software will be just as susceptible to piracy as it has always been.

post #52 of 85
The future of software is service.

It's wild to see people prefer the old model of installing software that is immediately outdated. i'd rather incentivize my services providers to provide constant updates and handle some of the computational power on their side (computers are getting smaller these days, folks).

Change sucks. But sure beats living in the past.

Now lets just hope the tools keep getting better as promised.
post #53 of 85

Is there a low cost alternative to Illustrator? I am on the periphery of the graphics field and use it. Would love to know if there is a good vector alternative. 

post #54 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post



I'm more heartbroken realizing I will be spending $20,000 for a smartphone over the next 18 years... 1hmm.gif

Get an iPhone, protect it well.

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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post #55 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post


That's kind of nonsense. If you use the software and create a movie, it's NOT inaccessible. If you use photoshop and produce some piece of art, that's not going away. If you actually finish something with these tools, it's going to come out in a format that isn't locked to Adobe software. The only thing will be inaccessible is the intermediary pieces of your final output.


My layered files would be inaccessible, yes? Perhaps my PS-Alt will be able to open them along with the layers - we'll see.

post #56 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

 

And probably the new features will keep decreasing (there's only so many things you can do to an image).

 

Eventually you could be perpetually paying for something that never changes.

ha. doing that now with cs6.

 

i'm one of those users that has always defended adobe. in spite of their mediocre upgrades. no more. i simply can't justify being locked into yet another monthly fee. 

 

adobe has a history of upgrades that are riddled with bugs, lackluster or completely useless features—certainly not worth the upgrade prices anymore.

 

this isn't about piracy. this is about a company that has gotten too big and needs to sustain itself. a quality product and innovation are no longer the driving force behind the company. 

post #57 of 85

@ThePixelDoc

 

Arguing with home users and hobbyists from a professional viewpoint is futile. They just don't get it. We spend hundreds of dollars a month just on courier fees sending high res proofs to clients, picking up product to do photo shoots, delivering print jobs, etc. $50 a month is 'fricking' peanuts when you are using the Adobe tools as the core asset of a graphics business.

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post #58 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Connell View Post

 

 

But the one thing you're not factoring in is that at the end of those 3 years and $720 outlay for Photoshop CC, you still own *nothing* but a nice requirement to keep on paying that $240 a year just to be able to open all the work you've created.  With a perpetual license, on the other hand, you can continue to use the program near indefinitely. 

Ownership of a perpetual license is a tangible asset that must be factored into any value calculations.  When done so, CC is not WAY cheaper in the long run, not by a long shot. 

Creative Cloud is the equivalent of leasing a car over 3 years, paying the full outright cost during that time, and then having to turn the car back in and walk away with absolutely nothing.  But even that's not bad enough.  To truly see how bad the deal is, after turning in your car, you'd also be prohibited from driving on any roads you drove on while using that car. 

 

To summarize:  After 3 years of CC, you've paid more than buying the software outright, and this assumes you bought a full, retail version as opposed to upgrading from an older version.  From that point, you can stop paying, loose access to the application(s) and any edibility of anything you've created during that time, or you can continue to pay indefinitely.

 

After 3 years ownership of a perpetual license, your investment is likely long since recovered and you can continue using your software for however long it continues to run on whatever OS/platform you use.  10 to 15 years is not an outrageous estimate.  You maintain full access and edibility to anything you created, and anything you subsequently create.  You could upgrade to the latest version for a relatively small amount.  Or you could sell or transfer your license to another person if you no longer need it. 

What's really sad/scary is how incapable people are at fully evaluating value in a purchase.  Think about it.  People are arguing that paying the same amount for something over 3 years, yet owning nothing is more valuable than buying something outright.  I'm not saying there aren't scenarios where the subscription model doesn't have advantages, but value is *never* one of them.  Never.  There is no value in renting.


A Huge +1. Thank you Paul.

post #59 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Otstott View Post

Adobe customer's split? What? No most of Adobe's customers love the idea! The other half complaining are the ones with pirated software and are crying because they might not be able to do it anymore.
Do any of you realize that now with Adobe CC we get these updates and new features YEAR ROUND and no longer have to wait till a new DVD package comes out???

Get off the "Lets bash Adobe" wagon and do your research first before you go lighting a torch. This is going too far these days.

Justin, you are mistaken... When Apple went to the Downloadable Only model for FCPX, they shaved - what - about 2/3 off the price! OSX upgrades used to be $129 (still way cheaper than Window's upgrades) but then download only for $39... then $29 and now $19. No brainer, upgrade the instant it's available. Not having to create a box, fill and distribute it. And, of course, we can download the software on to 5 computers (vs. 2 for Adobe).

post #60 of 85
Adobe is milking its US customers, no doubt about that, but what about us from Europe! We have to pay almost twice as much for the same software!! I have to pay almost $80 /month for the whole package in Denmark ... That is $960 per year!! 1frown.gif
post #61 of 85
Being a 15 year user of Adobe products, and relying on Master Collection... I applaud this move.
post #62 of 85
I'm a 44 year old designer, I love my computer, technology and until two days ago, Adobe.

Illustrator is the cornerstone of my business, followed closely by Photoshop. I upgrade my software when I'm ready and when I feel the next version is suitable to my business needs. I do not need the entire cloud for my business. In fact the talents of myself and those I hire are more specialized these days rather than diverse. I can imagine that there are only a handful of people out there who are competent with the entire line of CC applications. Having them all at my fingertip is of no benefit to me as a designer and the idea of $50/month to have that leaves me cold.

For me the company whose products I have used every day for 20 years has now turned its back on me. As a loyal CS user I'm shocked with the way it seems that Adobe thumbed its nose to us almost overnight and made me feel like I don't matter. It is an "assimilate or go away" attitude that I resent. My proposal is you can keep the Cloud, roll out the updates and then allow us "outsiders" to purchase our perpetual licenses every 12-18 months to a stable version that will stay compatible with the latest versions. Unless that happens I will continue with CS6 and look to other suitable options out there that will sure to come to market. Perhaps this new model will open the design world up to new choices and competition that will give us designers better products in the end instead of being locked into the Adobe monopoly.
post #63 of 85

Like cable companies who offer their wares at a special price for the first year to woo new customers, Adobe is doing the same.

Also like the cable companies, after a year the price jumps. What will the $50 monthly subscription cost be in 2015? $100 per month? More? What will happen to your documents stored on Adobe's cloud server?

When you buy an Adobe software suite, at least you know what it will cost you for three years.

I will not be subscribing, and I encourage software developers to take advantage of Adobe's many current customer's subscription negativity.

post #64 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockdock View Post

As a loyal CS user I'm shocked with the way it seems that Adobe thumbed its nose to us almost overnight and made me feel like I don't matter. 

I think you are taking it too personally. As a CS user, you already have a diverse collection of Adobe applications. Adobe has no way to know that you only need Illustrator and Photoshop and work independently without collaboration with others that would require version compatibility. They are not thumbing their nose at you. $50 a month is simply the new normal for Adobe tools. In your case it may not be ideal but even if you only use Design Standard and upgrade every other version you still pay a couple hundred a year. For sake of discussion let's say the difference is $30 per month more than what you are used to paying. That is a dollar a day. Is that really going to break the bank? Plus you never have the one large expense when upgrading. The upside is that you do have access to all the titles and they are always up to date plus cloud services, sharing and backup. Adobe is streamlining their offerings and targeting primarily professionals. If $50 per month is way too much for your business, you might want to consider increasing your business offerings or raise your prices.

 

I know it is frustrating for a pure designer to increase revenue because as a designer you don't always have a way to provide value added services to your clients such as printing, web programming, trade show pop-up banners, etc. You know, real, hard, tangible products that you can mark up. For most diversified graphics businesses, even solo entrepreneurs, this new pricing is such a low level expense compared to all the other aspects of running a business, it just isn't worth worrying about.

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post #65 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlor View Post

There's a lot of piracy, yes, but as I and several other people have noted above, Creative Cloud will do precisely nothing to stop it. The apps are still installed and running locally, and you can save your data locally, so pirates will have no trouble at all cracking whatever online security features are in it. 

Until the day that Adobe actually processes your data (filters, transforms, complicated calculations) in the cloud and not on your local computer, their software will be just as susceptible to piracy as it has always been.

Re: Piracy....maybe the hackers will make it work... maybe they won't. That's left to be seen though, and if successful... well.... it's your moral call whether to get on that ship or not.

This page and interview with Winston Hendrickson, VP of Creative Solutions, has a lot of info regarding the misconceptions of CC. I seriously suggest reading it.

Photoshop CC: Adobe responds to reactions
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post #66 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Connell View Post

This would resolve the major issue of the subscription model, which is the fact that as soon as the service ends, you're left with nothing.  It would roughly equal what customers pay now for perpetual licenses, and any higher cost over the long term could be justified by the value in always remaining current with versions and features.   And, finally, it would give long term, loyal customers residual value if/when service is stopped. 

Without perpetual rights upon subscription termination, this is an obvious scheme to hold people's work hostage and compel a continual ransom payment.  End of story. 

Again, thank you for your contribution to the discussion. The model you've outlined would have me enroll in the Creative Cloud immediately.

post #67 of 85
@ mstone

Well said! For those of us that see the advantages of this new licensing... lets just hope Adobe sticks to their word and diligently and often, fixes bugs and offers new features that benefit us. Rather than waiting and force-fitting the "kitchen sink" features like video editing in Photoshop...(argh!)... in order to 'compel' the fence sitters to upgrade.

This is a huge opportunity for Adobe to streamline and retool the entire suite, dropping features that don't belong and are overlap... and make the suite actually work together as one.

@Rockdock

You are absolutely free to purchase CS6 and use it for 3,4,5 years or longer. In the link I gave above, Adobe has stated that they will update CS6 to be compatible with the next OS versions of Windows and Mac... as well as throw camera support out to CS6 users... just none of the new camera raw features. Considering you don't need them... big deal, right?

I do have a funny feeling though, at about this time next year (Adobe MAX)... you're going to be itchin' rather badly to take a peak at and use all of the features added to CS since June 17, 2013.... plus those new killer ones they're sure to reel you in with. I could almost bet on that. If they don't... well... so what? You'll just go on enjoying CS6 and we subscribers are the idiot sheep. Actually, you should be rejoicing: you'll never ever have to pay for graphic software again in your life. Now how "coupon crushing saving" is that? 1smoking.gif

@ Paul Connell - Perpetual Licensing Scheme

I guess the KISS principle doesn't really mean anything to you? Regardless of my thoughts on your presentation, you just may get your wish. See my comment above and the interview I've linked to. "Planned" is the key word... biut it's not set in stone.

It's also possible that Adobe get's class-action sued and is forced to offer a similar scheme to yours, kind of like with smart phones. For single software packages like PS, they are similar in price....???
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post #68 of 85

Having worked for Adobe and being a 27+ year user of their products, I can understand the move to the Creative Cloud but some on the "math" displayed in this thread have my wondering if some of you know how to add?

 

eg: If I owned Photoshop Ext. for years (retail $1099 street price around $800) I could upgrade every 18-24 months for $149. However, if I move to the Cloud I will be paying $20/mo or $480 every 24 months for upgrades.

 

If I owned the Creative Suite Design Premium for years ($2100 retail street price around $1899) I could upgrade every 18-24 months for $700. However, if I move to the Cloud I will be paying $50/mo or $1200 every 24 months for upgrades (not including the "discounted" first year of Cloud)

 

If you don't already own their products, the Adobe Creative Cloud is a good deal. If however, you do already own their products, Adobe has effectively doubled/tripled the cost of upgrading your software. The ones getting stiffed are those that have supported them the longest.

post #69 of 85
Quote:
This would resolve the major issue of the subscription model, which is the fact that as soon as the service ends, you're left with nothing. It would roughly equal what customers pay now for perpetual licenses, and any higher cost over the long term could be justified by the value in always remaining current with versions and features. And, finally, it would give long term, loyal customers residual value if/when service is stopped.

Without perpetual rights upon subscription termination, this is an obvious scheme to hold people's work hostage and compel a continual ransom payment. End of story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2P View Post

Again, thank you for your contribution to the discussion. The model you've outlined would have me enroll in the Creative Cloud immediately.

I'm stretching the promise and premise of Adobe's intent here... but I think a lot of folks are missing what Adobe is doing here... or attempting to do.

First and foremost: there are no "versions" any more. They have stated this. There certainly will be some kind of number system to allow for roll-back versioning of the software in the case that an update screws up or messes with a users 3rd party plugins, font managers.. whatever. Adobe has also stated that provision.

The best way to look at this, is that it will be quite similar to an iOS device with many apps. Each app gets bug-fixes and versions whenever they are ready to roll. Expanding on that analogy with iOS devices, your favorite app A gets a complete new version, B gets a fix, C gets an added much awaited feature, D gets split into 2 apps, purchased or dropped because it's no longer needed. At any time, yes you can decide to update whenever you want to... or not after reading a bad review... staying put til such time as you have Wifi or the new, new fix actually works.

Simply: this is Perpetual Licensing vs. Perpetual Updates. You plain won't even know whether it's a good time to stop the sub or continue, because Murphy's Law says that the day you cancel, the next day will be the release of the feature or bug-fix you've been waiting for.

The above probably sounds double bad to some people I'm sure... but I still see it as a possible advantage. I also don't think that Adobe is going to be that stupid and roll out "versions" all at once at the same time. They surely will stager everything to keep people... well optimistically speaking, shall we use the wonderful marketing term.... engaged?! 1cool.gif

The whole idea and my pushing for something new... is that the graphic design and software tools industry has seriously stagnated and been rather boring over the last few years, other than for web and mobile developments. This is something to shake it up a bit and see whether Adobe is up to the task in providing tools for the next 20 years.... or leave a window of opportunity for some new brother combo like Thomas and John Knoll to innovate and beat them down. Not unheard of... Pixelmator guys... you listening?
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post #70 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by InfiniteWill View Post

Having worked for Adobe and being a 27+ year user of their products, I can understand the move to the Creative Cloud but some on the "math" displayed in this thread have my wondering if some of you know how to add?

 

[...]

If I owned the Creative Suite Design Premium for years ($2100 retail street price around $1899) I could upgrade every 18-24 months for $700. However, if I move to the Cloud I will be paying $50/mo or $1200 every 24 months for upgrades (not including the "discounted" first year of Cloud)

 

Ok let's do some math based on your figures.

 

$1900 + $700 / 48 months = $54 per month. You are paying more, all up front, and you are always using old software with less features and fewer titles. Even if you extend it out to 72 months it is still $45 per month.

 

Edit: Plus you have to calculate sales tax as well for the tangible product so add another 8% +/- .


Edited by mstone - 5/8/13 at 12:17pm

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post #71 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by InfiniteWill View Post

Having worked for Adobe and being a 27+ year user of their products, I can understand the move to the Creative Cloud but some on the "math" displayed in this thread have my wondering if some of you know how to add?

eg: If I owned Photoshop Ext. for years (retail $1099 street price around $800) I could upgrade every 18-24 months for $149. However, if I move to the Cloud I will be paying $20/mo or $480 every 24 months for upgrades.

If I owned the Creative Suite Design Premium for years ($2100 retail street price around $1899) I could upgrade every 18-24 months for $700. However, if I move to the Cloud I will be paying $50/mo or $1200 every 24 months for upgrades (not including the "discounted" first year of Cloud)

If you don't already own their products, the Adobe Creative Cloud is a good deal. If however, you do already own their products, Adobe has effectively doubled/tripled the cost of upgrading your software. The ones getting stiffed are those that have supported them the longest.

See my above post: there is no versioning. You can not effectively compare the 2 models at all IMO.

Just Imagine: Camera Raw 8, 9, 10, and 11 released by the end of the year... including a new setting for brushes in August, a revamped Filter for CSS export in September, and assorted improvements, bug-fixes, patterns, fonts, etc. from July thru December.

Now answer this within that scenario: what version are you on that you can compare it to a 2 year wait for those features and fixes?

Second question: why should we all wait for those advances until someone is ready to "upgrade"? The tech industry is moving at a 6-month (3-month really) speed these days. I and many of my clients need these tools actually yesterday, and I need them to also evolve at about that pace.**** Adobe has determined that this is also the best way to do that, rather than wait for mega-suite versions. I don't have a crystal ball to know whether it will work or not, but it certainly seems worth trying.

Note: I will admit that it is a f***ing shame that Adobe hasn't offered decent updates like this over the last decade. They would have a far easier time of moving people to CC if they had... and could half way be trusted. I'll take my chances... but I can "somewhat" sympathize with those that won't or can't afford to be that trusting.

**** I also dearly hope Apple has something killer with iOS 7 and new Macs... or else I'm a seriously a sad fool for all of these "hopefully optimistic" posts recently....1rolleyes.gif
Edited by ThePixelDoc - 5/8/13 at 12:31pm
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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post #72 of 85

I'm afraid your math doesn't work either as I I have already PAID for the Creative Suite. Spreading it out over a number or years as you have done, even further makes my point. If you have already purchased the software, to keep it current (no versioning any longer) I will be paying more per year than the old version method :-) I guess what I am saying is that if I am looking forward and not including the outlay I have already made, it will be a good deal. Maybe :-)
 

post #73 of 85
You guys should all get together and make your own software products. It sounds like you know exactly what the public wants 1smile.gif
post #74 of 85
I'll like people to stop blaming everything on piracy. Everyone on this planet steals from each other. Hollywood stole a lot from pirates, like the name "Pirates of the Caribbean" for the movie. Did get permission from Modern Pirates about using the name. So you people know its in South America on coast, the fort is Pirates de Caribbean" NBC tv network have in works a show about Blackbeard called crossbones. An please don't get on here saying "the pirate of today are not same as pirates of 1400's" stop using the pirate flag and names for your products(games, movies, etc.) I'm a pirate designer, that own my software an hate developers dicking me around not fixing the bugs. Adobe CS 5, has some major bugs an adobe told me moved to CS 6. 1password people told me the same thing. The developer of app Thoth, has one way to pay for his products. All these developers do is complain about pirates doing this and that. Fix your products, you create pirates by playing your mind games. I just remember, one time I had to send in a copy of my Driver lic. So Macromedia to get my dreamweaver update (games)
post #75 of 85

 

 

 

Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

@ Paul Connell - Perpetual Licensing Scheme

I guess the KISS principle doesn't really mean anything to you?

 

The KISS principle is not some rigid, universal law and that you even suggest it applies here is, frankly, ridiculous.  There are endless scenarios for the manner in which customers individually employ the tools Adobe creates - from hobbyists to one-man-shops to small, medium and large independent studios to large organizations, and that doesn't even touch upon the various general or specific focuses each of these might have.  The notion that a single licensing scheme should suit every user of a product with such a user base is absurd.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

Simply: this is Perpetual Licensing vs. Perpetual Updates. You plain won't even know whether it's a good time to stop the sub or continue


This makes no sense whatsoever.  You damn well will know if it's a good time to stop the sub - and the answer is that, unless you're retiring, is it's NEVER a good time to stop your sub, because as soon as you do, you loose all access to everything - the applications and open/edit/update ability for everything you've ever created with those applications.

 

Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

Second question: why should we all wait for those advances until someone is ready to "upgrade"? The tech industry is moving at a 6-month (3-month really) speed these days. I and many of my clients need these tools actually yesterday, and I need them to also evolve at about that pace.**** Adobe has determined that this is also the best way to do that, rather than wait for mega-suite versions. I don't have a crystal ball to know whether it will work or not, but it certainly seems worth trying.


Why should we all wait for someone else to be ready to upgrade?  You shouldn't.  But the opposite is also equally valid - why should someone who doesn't need every buggy new feature the second it hits a beta state be forced to pay for it?  The answer is the same - they shouldn't.  And that precisely highlights the absurdity of the one-size-fits-all licensing scheme. 

And I can't help but notice the irony and tone of this line of reasoning - "why should we (meaning you) have to wait until I'm ready to upgrade", as if I'm somehow imposing on you.  For the past year, we've both enjoyed the benefits of the licensing scheme that suits us best.  No one has been pressuring Adobe to stop the subscription model, and I've repeatedly acknowledged it's benefits under the right circumstances.  But it's you who is imposing on me - by so endorsing this new one-size-fits-all model.  You suggest you are being imposed on when you're not being imposed on at all, at the very same time you endorse the imposition of all of us.  I just love the hypocrisy. 

Second, as for your comments about the industry moving at a 6 month (3-month really) speed... what does that even mean??!?!?!? 
 

And again this entire problem goes away with the retention of usage rights after a subscription ends with a few simple conditions being met.  No separate code bases - you're left with the state the program(s) were in at the time of termination.  You're stopping your subscription?  Oh, you've been a loyal customer for all these years?  Here's links to the latest packaged installers, we're sorry to see you go and hope we can win you back in the future. 

Not offering this can only be seen as being carefully and precisely crafted to compel people to never stop their subscription, and that's because under this model, Adobe knows it'll cost more people considerably more than it'll save the few who'll actually save.

 

post #76 of 85

Folks, we can split hairs on how much it would cost to own vs. subscribe monthly but people are failing to miss the bigger picture in my view:

 

1) This puts all the power into Adobe's hands. The customer has no leverage other than to stop using the software.

 

2) As they say "past performance indicates future behavior" If Adobe has failed to correct bugs in their software when they had the incentive/need to create software that was compelling enough that it would make people want to upgrade, what makes you think that they will do so when they have a bunch of people paying for software no matter what new features or bugs they fix? Their promise to do so?

 

3) If Adobe is successful, every other software maker will follow suit and then you will have a nice fat monthly subscription to all the software you use. 

 

So, welcome to the world of recurring monthly rental fees for everything. Want to get off the train? no problem. You simply have to wait until your contract is over and then you can walk off the train with nothing to show for all the years of payments you've made.

 

Maybe this is the way the world is moving, but I'm sure as heck not going to help them accelerate the process if I can.

 

The most logical thing I have heard is to allow people to go with the cloud versions of these tools, or continue to buy the perpetual license and then upgrade as they like. Whether that is every upgrade or every other upgrade should up to the customer, not the developer.

 

I work with a non-profit group and we can't afford to have all of our users have to pay monthly for the privilege of using their software.

 

I will spend the money to buy as many copies of the last edition of CS6 and then ride it out from there until:

 

1) Adobe wakes up and reconsiders their plans (which I doubt will happen)

2) A competitor comes up with an alternative or group of developers figures out how to cooperate and make their apps interoperable and affordable.

 

With the ability to virtualize the os on our macs we can continue using OS X 10.8 or 10.9 for as long as we need to in order to continue using CS6 for years to come.

post #77 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

Get an iPhone, protect it well.

My point was I'll be paying for cell phone service over the next 18 years... it was never about the cost of the device.

And that's what Adobe is doing now... Creative Cloud is kinda like software as a service.

If you pay to use it... you can keep using it. But once your payments stop... so does your access to the software.

Just like if I stop paying for my cell phone service.
post #78 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoodlesNoodlemann View Post

Is there a low cost alternative to Illustrator? I am on the periphery of the graphics field and use it. Would love to know if there is a good vector alternative. 

 

 

Not sure about low cost, but I used to use Xara for vectors before they were bought by Corel years back. It was a very capable vector tool. 

 

No idea what its like now, but Xara seems to exist as a brand again.  

 

http://www.xara.com/us/company/

 

My problem in switching would simply be that most people use Illustrator, so theres a natural advantage in working in the same tool/file formats etc. 

 

I've toyed with the open source Inkscape, but found it very lacking compared to Illustrator I have a collaborator who uses it and I find its a pain that we can't exchange .ai files. Moreover once you've got your 1,000 hours in Illustrator... what an effort it would be to swap. 

post #79 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Connell View Post


This makes no sense whatsoever.  You damn well will know if it's a good time to stop the sub - and the answer is that, unless you're retiring, is it's NEVER a good time to stop your sub, because as soon as you do, you loose all access to everything - the applications and open/edit/update ability for everything you've ever created with those applications.

Correction: it's never a good time to cancel if you plan on editing your files using Adobe's tools. Opening and or updating the files, if they don't use proprietary filters or formats will naturally be possible with some other program.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

Second question: why should we all wait for those advances until someone is ready to "upgrade"? The tech industry is moving at a 6-month (3-month really) speed these days. I and many of my clients need these tools actually yesterday, and I need them to also evolve at about that pace.**** Adobe has determined that this is also the best way to do that, rather than wait for mega-suite versions. I don't have a crystal ball to know whether it will work or not, but it certainly seems worth trying.


Why should we all wait for someone else to be ready to upgrade?  You shouldn't.  But the opposite is also equally valid - why should someone who doesn't need every buggy new feature the second it hits a beta state be forced to pay for it?  The answer is the same - they shouldn't.  And that precisely highlights the absurdity of the one-size-fits-all licensing scheme. 
Quote:
And I can't help but notice the irony and tone of this line of reasoning - "why should we (meaning you) have to wait until I'm ready to upgrade", as if I'm somehow imposing on you.  For the past year, we've both enjoyed the benefits of the licensing scheme that suits us best.  No one has been pressuring Adobe to stop the subscription model, and I've repeatedly acknowledged it's benefits under the right circumstances.  But it's you who is imposing on me - by so endorsing this new one-size-fits-all model.  You suggest you are being imposed on when you're not being imposed on at all, at the very same time you endorse the imposition of all of us.  I just love the hypocrisy. 

*Blush* Gotta give you this one... you're right that I shouldn't be imposing on your wishes. But I'm not the one responsible here, Adobe is. Once again, In the link I gave above an Adobe executive has stated that "the plan is to drop perpetual licenses in the future, but it's not definite" (sic)
Quote:
Second, as for your comments about the industry moving at a 6 month (3-month really) speed... what does that even mean??!?!?!? 

You haven't noticed? People need tools for HTML5, for apps, for e-books and mags. Also, in some wild and futuristic corners of the net, people can edit their photos and videos online easier and more efficient than with Adobe software. They can also create entire websites and apps using webtools almost exclusively. They need to concentrate, focus, and pick up the ball with their software tools.... or they're relegated to the Bush League, CC or not, anyway.

 
Quote:
And again this entire problem goes away with the retention of usage rights after a subscription ends with a few simple conditions being met.  No separate code bases - you're left with the state the program(s) were in at the time of termination.  You're stopping your subscription?  Oh, you've been a loyal customer for all these years?  Here's links to the latest packaged installers, we're sorry to see you go and hope we can win you back in the future. 

Not offering this can only be seen as being carefully and precisely crafted to compel people to never stop their subscription, and that's because under this model, Adobe knows it'll cost more people considerably more than it'll save the few who'll actually save.

OK. I'm going to concede this argument to you, and say that I also support your desire and the eventual reinstating of perpetual licensing in some form or other.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here... but what I don't agree with is some kind of colluded, multi-tier, monster table of licenses and ticked feature lists. Not only do I personally hate them as a user... I despise creating them for clients as well(!)

KISS means you get what you pay for after X amount of time. Done.

Single programs 24-months ($240.00) or 36 months for the Suite ($1800.00). This would also put the onus on Adobe to keep people interested in a monthly CC sub, and get the other people that have left back onto it sooner.

I can see the individual Product Managers cringing at that simplicity... and even some users... but it is simple. Nothing worse than a carrier tarif structure or going back to a Microsoft Windows approach. Apple does KISS rather well, why shouldn't someone else give it a shot? The whole Design, Web, Standard, Master Suite... plus individual programs.... plus standard or extended.... as a structure was just plain stupid and unnecessarily complex... IMHO.

Not too far off-topic, but it appears that the entire world is skeptical of everything these days to do with business, government, whatever.. and I might add for good reason. However, the internet has given the Perpetual Skeptics a far larger voice than they deserve IMHO.... and it's far "stickier" than in the past... or even iOS for that matter.

No matter the thorough reaming and mistakes I have made in my past based on "Naive Rose-Colored Trust", I still try to remain positive and non-judgmental. That is until I learn a new variant of the theme. Maybe that's why I've also learned to listen to other's reasoning and be able to change my stance or opinion in short time to avoid said reaming 1smile.gif

Regardless: Pirates are not good and they should definitely stay off of my lawn, outa my puddles, and not even attempt to show me their treasures...or else! 1bugeye.gif

Edited: ... unless the pirate happens to be Penelope Cruz... Ahooooy....!
Edited by ThePixelDoc - 5/9/13 at 7:38am
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
Reply
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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post #80 of 85

Thanks, but it looks like that's a PC program and I work on Macs. But thanks for the reply. 

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