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Apple's iPads, iPhones could be subject to new French 'culture tax' - Page 3

post #81 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


I don't think you understand the issue here. Taxing everyone in order to fund the arts is fine, unless you are a philistine. But this isn't that. It's taxing selectively foreign goods that their people are buying. One consequence will to make those products slightly less competitive. That is protectionism of a sort.

 

To quote the original Reuters article:

 

 

Quote:
The proposed tax would mirror fees already paid by television users, TV and radio broadcasters and Internet service providers to fund art, cinema and music in France, but which Google, Apple and Amazon are now exempt from paying.

 

So, it is just the opposite of selectively taxing foreign goods. It is about ending an exemption. And it is not unique in any way. E.g. Germany has been asking computer and smartphone users to pay public TV fees for these devices for years (approx. $218 per annum), for the sole reason that public TV content was accessible through the Internet (wether you actually accessed it or not).

 

"Protectionism" per definition would require local goods to be made more competitive than local products. This is not the case here. EU law would not allow consumption taxes on only US, or non-French, tablets. It will either affect all devices of this type, or none of them.

post #82 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by saintstryfe View Post

This is the same kind of patriotic warbbling that comes out of some of the lesser-minded US politicans. It wouldn't be so desperately sad if it wasn't for the fact that French culture is so pervasive all over the world. They're not "Defending" French culture, they're stagnating it.

What evidence do you have that French culture is so pervasive around the world? Remembered, yes, but were talking about current culture, not just what was done in the past. And you can't use the French language spoken in former colonies, because that was forced upon them
post #83 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


Sure you are! Denying it doesn't change it. No one says you have to like what's produced. That what art is all about. If you don't understand that, and don't think government should have a hand in financing it, then you are a philistine. It becomes obvious, despite the denial.

According to wiki - In the fields of philosophy and æsthetics, the term philistinism describes the social attitude of anti-intellectualism that undervalues and despises artbeautyspirituality, and intellect;

 

I don't despise art, beauty, spirituality and intellect. I just don't believe that government should be funding any art. I believe that artists should be able to produce whatever they want, just not with my money.

post #84 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

To quote the original Reuters article:



So, it is just the opposite of selectively taxing foreign goods. It is about ending an exemption. And it is not unique in any way. E.g. Germany has been asking computer and smartphone users to pay public TV fees for these devices for years (approx. $218 per annum), for the sole reason that public TV content was accessible through the Internet (wether you actually accessed it or not).

"Protectionism" per definition would require local goods to be made more competitive than local products. This is not the case here. EU law would not allow consumption taxes on only US, or non-French, tablets. It will either affect all devices of this type, or none of them.

Perhaps you noticed that the taxes are on content, and the people accessing it? This is totally different. It's a tax on the physical products foreign companies are importing into the country. I wouldn't mind if all companies who have those products were taxed equally, including those very large French companies such as Thompson, which has been bailed out by the French government serval times over the years, and has never had to pay it back. However, that doesn't seem to be the case here.
post #85 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The problem for the Frence cultural protectionist agencies is that their own people prefer American entertainment to their own. If they must prevent this foreign invasion from taking over by taxing or regulating it, then the effort will fail. What they need is to allow their own people to compete. And if they aren't good enough, well, that's just too bad.

Well, if you allow competition, it must be on fair grounds. As someone pointed out, domestic market sizes are totally different between France and the US. Let’s say the cost of a season is the same in both countries. In the US, 30 or 40 channels will buy it, and that will even eventually pay it back completely. In France, maybe 3 or 4 channels at most, because our # of TV channel – well – is commensurate with the size of our country, that is a mere US state. So the US producer, having already refilled his pocket with a bucketful of clams, can easily sell its product abroad at a rebated price, something a French producer cannot afford if he wants to earn some bucks.

Thus, the smallest country, France, has to resort to taxes in order to compensate for the bias and restore fairness. The amount levied could then be used to fuel new domestic productions.

Do you think it is fair for American companies to compete with Chinese concurrents, given that the hourly wage over there is less than a third that of the US?
post #86 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Surely the Fox News Channel has blurred the definition of socialism. Calling someone is a socialist, for them, is just a more polite way of saying "Commie Bastard". A country having social services does not make it socialist. Please turn off the TV and do some reading.

The prime minister of France is definitely a socialist thug, as he belongs to the socialist party.

In France, the Socialist Party is center, left, much like The US Democrat Party, the key term is "center", meaning not radical. Why the thug comment? Is that another Fox-ism?

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post #87 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Surely the Fox News Channel has blurred the definition of socialism. Calling someone is a socialist, for them, is just a more polite way of saying "Commie Bastard". A country having social services does not make it socialist. Please turn off the TV and do some reading.

 

You are aware that the Socialist party in France was elected to power?

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post #88 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

In France, the Socialist Party is center, left, much like The US Democratic Party, the key term is "center", meaning not radical. Why the thug comment? Is that another Fox-ism?

Your definition of radical is not the same as mine, apparently. And why the thug comment? Because I consider all socialists to be enemies, and I view them to be a threat to all free people.

post #89 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


That post made no sense. You seem to have contradicted yourself in it.

 

I have? My point was this:  If there is a country that has reduced taxes to zero or rates that are favorable in comparison to France or the US (just to name a few), and you are a wealthy person, you will likely choose the lower-tax country to protect your wealth.

 

I personally am not exceedingly wealthy, therefore I have less reason to change my citizenship to country "X" should such an option become available. However, as the wealthy flee countries that continue to enact huge taxes on them, they will create alternatives if there are none on land. I know of several seasteading projects that are seeking investors.

 

If the wealthy largely flee the high tax countries, who do you think will be stuck to pay the bills?


Edited by SpamSandwich - 5/13/13 at 12:36pm

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post #90 of 145
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Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

 

You are aware that the Socialist party in France was elected to power?

Yes. Although the current president is from the Socialist Party the legislature is fairly evenly divided between socialists and conservatives. France is a democracy much like the US.

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post #91 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


Perhaps you noticed that the taxes are on content, and the people accessing it? This is totally different. It's a tax on the physical products foreign companies are importing into the country. I wouldn't mind if all companies who have those products were taxed equally, including those very large French companies such as Thompson, which has been bailed out by the French government serval times over the years, and has never had to pay it back. However, that doesn't seem to be the case here.

 

Yeah, I did. The problem in Reuters' reporting is that they already judged it from the view point of US companies, while the original event (the proposal by Pierre Lescure, who is not a government politician, and nobody has granted him his wish so far) was not singling out foreign companies at all. All French media (e.g. Le Monde) was quoting him as suggesting this tax for tablets, smartphones and other "connected devices". The company "Apple" was not mentioned by him, he was talking about "manufacturers, distributers and importers" of such devices, which clearly includes local goods meeting this criteria.

 

P.S. (Edit): E.g. The Verge got it right, their headline is: "French proposal would tax smartphones and tablets to fund cultural projects" without any insinuations of protectionism.

post #92 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

Of course, if you're an American and not wholly ignorant of your own history, you should show a little gratitude, not to mention respect, to the French. Without their help, the outcome of that little skirmish often referred to here as the Revolutionary War might well have been entirely different.

Let us not forget WW I and WW II which should make America even, if not ahead, as far as to who should be considered indebted to who.

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post #93 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


We're still not as bad as other countries. In fact, we're not protectionistic enough. If we retaliated every time a country enacted some law or regulation intended to keep our products out, or at a disadvantage, and it happens far more often than you know, perhaps they would stop doing it. But we don't.

 

Except that you do, just by a different means.  Instead of the government, it's the collusion between media (marketing), distribution, and content creation companies (often all one in the same company under different names).  Combine that with lobbying to keep legislation out which would prevent such collusion, and you have a lock on the means to get most cultural products out to the average person (not counting the small percentage of people who actively seek out more diverse content).

 
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post #94 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

However, as the wealthy flee countries that continue to enact huge taxes on them, they will create alternatives if there are none on land. I know of several seasteading projects that are seeking investors.

Personally I prefer the US over any country I have visited. Why live somewhere you don't like just because the taxes are lower? You can't take it with you and life is too short. Countries with sophisticated social, economic policies, governments and educational systems tend to have higher rates of taxation. Oh well, they are still the most desirable places to live in my opinion.

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post #95 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by helicopterben View Post

France as a whole country is a joke. Billionaires are leaving France because of their higher tax policy on rich.
They better go back to making that Junk Wheat bread and baguette to protect their culture. They look good in kitchen making junk lol

If I lived in France and was flat-assed broke I'd still leave.

post #96 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

In France, the Socialist Party is center, left, much like The US Democratic Party, the key term is "center", meaning not radical. Why the thug comment? Is that another Fox-ism?

Your definition of radical is not the same as mine, apparently. And why the thug comment? Because I consider all socialists to be enemies, and I view them to be a threat to all free people.

Yep. You call center left liberals radical and extreme right wing conservative fringe racists, normal. We're as different as night and day.

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post #97 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
But the issue is not Applecentric.

 

So? This is an Apple-centric website. What do we care about anyone else?

Would you prefer every headline be like this:


Apple bests Samsung in patent lawsuit. Samsung loses to Apple in patent lawsuit. Microsoft was not involved in the patent lawsuit. Adobe was not involved in the patent lawsuit. Dell was not involved in the patent lawsuit. Google was not involved in the patent lawsuit. HP was not involved in the patent lawsuit. Acer was not involved in the patent lawsuit. Nokia was not involved in the patent lawsuit. GlaxoSmithKline was not involved in the patent lawsuit. RIM was not involved in the patent lawsuit.

 

It's meaningless. We don't care about the other information. If we wanted to know about it, we'd go to websites about those companies.


Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Please explain to me why when someone posts a headline that says "Workers at Apple's overseas factories commit suicide due to working conditions", it's considered as inaccurate (serving purpose of FUD). 

 

Because Apple has no overseas factories, first and foremost. That's probably the biggest issue with that headline.


Yet the headline above from AI is just fine with you?  You think it's accurate, not hyperbolic.

 

Be… cause the iPad and iPhone… could… be subject to the new tax. 

 

Are you really missing something somewhere, or are you just trolling?

 

You could complain if the headline said "Apple's iPads, iPhones could be THE ONLY PRODUCTS subject to new French 'culture tax'", but it doesn't. It says what it says because they're the only products that matter within the context of this website. Sheesh.

 

I'll see if I can make this clearer for you.

 

There is so much targeting and attacking of Apple in the media, and particularly in the story headlines. Apple, Apple, Just Apple.

 

But with this issue, that is not the case. This is not about Apple. And yet, the headline is slyly couched to give the initial impression that Apple is once again being singled out.

If you don't see that headline as Apple being singled out (or in other words  "hit bait") then you're just lost.

Maybe you just can't think of a headline that more accurately describes the reality of this issue. But it is inaccurate, and misleading.

 

within the context of this website.

 

That's just weak and ridiculous.

post #98 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Yes. Although the current president is from the Socialist Party the legislature is fairly evenly divided between socialists and conservatives. France is a democracy much like the US.

In a way, the opposition between socialism and capitalism is now obsolete. With every western nation stooping under the weigh of debt, true power has passed from governments to banks. If the banks decide suddenly to cut off oxygen (loans), no political power whatsoever could avoid a country to choke. It’s not that I like that – I mourn the days where politicians were all but meek – but it’s an inescapable fact.
post #99 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Yep. You call center left liberals radical and extreme right wing conservative fringe racists, normal. We're as different as night and day.

Yep, I guess we can agree that we're as different as night and day. More racists are found on the left by the way, so if there's one thing we can agree upon, it's that we're different.1smoking.gif

post #100 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post

You know, AI, I really expect more from you. This article (published anonymously) is the essence of FUD.

If the issue at hand pertains to all foreign devices of this type, then the headline is not: 

Apple's iPads, iPhones could be subject to new French 'culture tax'



Grow the "F" up.

You did read the actual article, right? This is an Apple interest site after all, and what is of interest is how it applies to Apple. So the headline reflects that. This is not a straight news site, in case you've wondered.

No. the headline does not reflect that.

AI has made it sound like, once again, someone is going after Apple. That Apple has been singled out.

 

If you don't see that, then you're not too bright. I, however, believe that you do see that, and that it's intentional on AI's part.

I've read enough Apple hit-whore headlines to know one when I see one.

 

In any case, it did a great job getting everybody bashing the French. Nice work. (hmm, maybe because everybody sucked-in on this as if the French were attacking Apple.  I wonder why)

post #101 of 145

If they change the name of the Apple products to "Le iPhone",  "Le Tablet Petit" and "Le Tablet Grande" would that make them happy?

 

Funny, a co-worker returned today from a trip to France.  Her comments were "everything they sell were things we can already buy in the US or online, except they jacked the prices up".

 

They can charge any tax they want, but the French citizens will be the one's that pay.   

post #102 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

They're taxing the products to give a leg up to French content makers, since French cultural products cannot compete on a level playing field. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieWallieWhiskers View Post

france has cultural products?

So pathetic to see such ignorance on display. If it was up to me, it would be against the law to display such stupidity (not dissimilar to how Apple ][ would like Android use to be made illegal).

 

Educate yourself. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/16869-Greatest-French-contributions-to-the-world

post #103 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by msimpson View Post

Funny, a co-worker returned today from a trip to France.  Her comments were "everything they sell were things we can already buy in the US or online,

I wonder if one can buy a good old-aged non-pasteurized cheese like a Camembert anywhere in the US or online. Fortunately, we still keep some genuine treats out of the reach of foreigners 1smile.gif
post #104 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

Of course, if you're an American and not wholly ignorant of your own history, you should show a little gratitude, not to mention respect, to the French. Without their help, the outcome of that little skirmish often referred to here as the Revolutionary War might well have been entirely different.

Let us not forget WW I and WW II which should make America even, if not ahead, as far as to who should be considered indebted to who.

Seriously... Are you 10 years old?

post #105 of 145
undefined
post #106 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Your definition of radical is not the same as mine, apparently. And why the thug comment? Because I consider all socialists to be enemies, and I view them to be a threat to all free people.

So you're against education, libraries, museums, fire and police depts, the miltary, the roads system, the postal system, FBI, CIA, every federal agency, the list goes on and on, they're all "social" programs funded by the government.
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post #107 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


Correct, except for grandfathered brands, only a certain kind of wine grown in Champagne region of France can be called Champagne. It's like a trademark given to a region rather than a specific organization. That I've seen, only Europe has this kind of food region branding. Cheeses, alcoholic beverages and dishes can get this kind of protected designation. In one absurdity, a cheese named after a city isn't allowed to be made in that city.

Not true at all. 

 

In the US, only specific regions in Georgia, for instance can grow Vidalia onions. Grow the same onions anywhere else, and you can't call them vidalias. Lots of places have region-specific brand identifications that are govermentally controlled. 

post #108 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by EauVive View Post


I wonder if one can buy a good old-aged non-pasteurized cheese like a Camembert anywhere in the US or online. Fortunately, we still keep some genuine treats out of the reach of foreigners 1smile.gif

 

Well I have enjoyed a number of delicious French foods from my local gourmet shop here in the US, including Camembert,  but it may not have been non-pasteurized.  Not sure if they would allow that to be imported.  I will have to check the next time.

 

We get to enjoy some of your nice delicacies, and we send you McDonald's and "Le Royal with Cheese" !  

post #109 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Yes. Although the current president is from the Socialist Party the legislature is fairly evenly divided between socialists and conservatives. France is a democracy much like the US.

 

The US is a Democratic Republic. Big difference.

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post #110 of 145
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Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

The US is a Democratic Republic. Big difference.

Big difference to what?

 

Democratic People's Republic of Korea?

 

It is just a name. In France they are free to vote and in the US they are free to vote.


Edited by mstone - 5/13/13 at 1:34pm

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post #111 of 145
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Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


So you're against education, libraries, museums, fire and police depts, the miltary, the roads system, the postal system, FBI, CIA, every federal agency, the list goes on and on, they're all "social" programs funded by the government.

 

Nope. I am obviously not against certain social services which exists in civilized countries. There is a difference between having certain social services and being a fully socialist country. It all depends on the degree and implementation of said services. I am against people who call themselves socialists, I am against their ideology, just like I would be against people who call themselves communists and nazis. Socialists are bad news, and I believe that they should be combatted in the same way that other evils have been combatted in the past.

post #112 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by EauVive View Post


In a way, the opposition between socialism and capitalism is now obsolete. With every western nation stooping under the weigh of debt, true power has passed from governments to banks. If the banks decide suddenly to cut off oxygen (loans), no political power whatsoever could avoid a country to choke. It’s not that I like that – I mourn the days where politicians were all but meek – but it’s an inescapable fact.

 

The US has fewer and fewer examples of free market capitalism, so it's difficult to declare capitalism obsolete when so few have actually experienced it.

 

Banks and the Fed have "power" in the US because of the devil's bargain that was struck in an attempt to circumvent the constitutional strictures against the establishment of fiat currency. The Constitution allows the use of gold coin as currency. "Federal Reserve Notes" used to be redeemable for gold, but their worth is now limited to fantasy valuation. The Federal Reserve is a privately owned corporation that is not "technically" part of the government and this is how our governmental "deciders" corrupted the monetary system.

 

The dollar's value has plummeted since it was no longer a reflection of the gold backing it. Now, I'm not arguing for a return to the gold standard, but our currency should minimally see currency competition and let the best "money" win.


Edited by SpamSandwich - 5/13/13 at 1:36pm

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post #113 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Big difference to what?

 

Democratic People's Republic of Korea?

 

It is just a name. In France they are free to vote and in the US they are free to vote.

 

Did you read what you typed before you submitted your comment?

 

Look up the differences between a Republic and a Democracy first.

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post #114 of 145

That is okay France also enacted pirating tax on various storage devices like HDD, they make end users pay a tax based on the total storage capacity because they may steal content and store it on those devices.

 

Just hope France taxes themselves out of existence

post #115 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by msimpson View Post

 

Funny, a co-worker returned today from a trip to France.  Her comments were "everything they sell were things we can already buy in the US or online, except they jacked the prices up".

 

They can charge any tax they want, but the French citizens will be the one's that pay.   

 

You can't just compare prices. You have to consider income and cost of living.

 

For 2011 the average wage in the US was $42,979.61 (gross), in France it was $57,544 (gross) or $44,295 (net, after taxes, health care, retirement fund etc. deductions). Which gives the average French person a lot more buying power, while working a lot less hours (again, on average). The truth is that there are several socio-capitalist countries in the world that provide a higher standard of living, leave more money in people's pockets and have less debt at the same time. Hurts?

post #116 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

Just hope France taxes themselves out of existence

 

It's only a matter of time.

post #117 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Look up the differences between a Republic and a Democracy first.

Every democracy is a republic, but not every republic is a democracy.

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post #118 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

That is okay France also enacted pirating tax on various storage devices like HDD, they make end users pay a tax based on the total storage capacity because they may steal content and store it on those devices.

 

Just hope France taxes themselves out of existence

 

That's not quite correct. This is not a "pirating tax", but a "private copying levy". If it would be a "pirating tax" it would de facto legalize pirating. It does not. Nothing can be regularly taxed and illegal at the same time.

 

The laws in many EU countries (and, I think, Canada, too) entitle private buyers to make "private copies" (not only for back-up purposes) and e.g. lend them to friends (for free), have a second copy of a CD in your car while the original stays at home etc. The copying levy is just a flat fee (and normally rather low) that gets distributed among content producers to compensate for these copies. The assumption is simply that a certain amount of storage space and recordable media is used to store third party content. These levies get reviewed frequently to reflect market conditions (e.g. today a decent amount of storage space is used to store content that was purchased online, so a future revision should actually lower these levies).

post #119 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

 

You can't just compare prices. You have to consider income and cost of living.

 

For 2011 the average wage in the US was $42,979.61 (gross), in France it was $57,544 (gross) or $44,295 (net, after taxes, health care, retirement fund etc. deductions). Which gives the average French person a lot more buying power, while working a lot less hours (again, on average). The truth is that there are several socio-capitalist countries in the world that provide a higher standard of living, leave more money in people's pockets and have less debt at the same time. Hurts?

 

You have oversimplified things based on a limited perspective.  Wages (gross or net) do not equate buying power.  You must factor in the costs of what is being purchased. (which includes taxes and fees on those items).  

 

 

 

 

Consumer Prices in United States are 19.13% lower than in France
Consumer Prices Including Rent in United States are 13.96% lower than in France
Rent Prices in United States are 1.16% higher than in France
Restaurant Prices in United States are 28.83% lower than in France
Groceries Prices in United States are 13.21% lower than in France
Local Purchasing Power in United States is 41.99% higher than in France
 
There are over 3.2 million unemployed in France now, the highest since 1997.   Around 11.5 %.   Now that hurts...
post #120 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Every democracy is a republic, but not every republic is a democracy.

 

While I fully agree with your definition, I remember loosely from long-ago history lessons, that the framers of the (US) Constitution did indeed make a distinction here. They felt that (European) democracies (at that time) were a "Tyranny-by-Majority", offering not enough protection of the individual and minorities. Given that many left Europe because their particular beliefs were not accepted or even tolerated, this was (then) understandable.

 

The failure is to pretend that this is still the case. A lot of democratic countries (in Europe and elsewhere) are a much friendlier environment for religious minorities, or people with particular sexual preferences, than huge parts of the USA are today. If the Founding Fathers would sit down today, complaining about the "excesses of democracy" would not be high on their list of concerns.

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