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Apple fell to 18% share of smartphone sales in Q1, Gartner says - Page 2

post #41 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

Back to here: the same kind of background noise, based on a consistent "list" of talking points: The competition is 'catching up', Apple is alienating customers, losing mindshare, no Mac Pro in years, the "Final Cut X fiasco", no 'touch capability' in OSX (cue WIndows comparison)… make sure you use certain adjectives and descriptives: narrow, limited, crappy, ditching Apple, limiting, unexciting...

Spot on.

 

These fools think we don't notice.....lol.gif

post #42 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post
Thank you for making it explicitly clear that you don't actually have any real data.

And thank you, for making it explicitly clear that you actually don't have the ability to comprehend.

 

(Haven't you met your trolling quota for the day?)

post #43 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

of course, when we are not happy with the numbers lets question the source...

 

Apple was able to slow down its tablet market share freefall with the iPad mini...

 

 

Many here have questioned where these numbers come from since Samsung does not give out numbers of units and the best anyone has been able to come up with is so-called "educated guesses" based on various "indicators" about the number shipped (which has nothing to do with what is sold except for it being a theoretical maximum).

 

This reminds me of when HP said its numbers for the webOS Tablet were in line with what it expected and everyone was speculating a million or more sold initially--only to find out that the initial run was only 90,000 (although they made more for some reason and then had a fire sale).

 

That is why the source is important.

 

Where in the heck do you get this "Apple…tablet market share free fall…"? I must have missed something. Do you mean that since Apple was the only company making tablets, the iPad, as soon as Samsung started making their copies that Apples market share fell? I guess that was inevitable since Apple had 100% since they created the market and if anybody sells tablets after that then Apples market share, by definition, is going down. You might have noticed there is a small lawsuit or two about this--maybe not since you are spending so much time trolling here.

post #44 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

First, whenever someone opens with "longtime Apple supporter here" I know they're about to disparage Apple history/strategy pretty thoroughly.

Second, when the post turns out to contain literally every familiar, negative 'talking point' -- presented in almost the exact same order! -- as I've seen rolled into a few dozen other posts on AI comment threads recently, I start to detect a pattern of premeditation. Seriously. 

I watch this in the political sphere as well. RNC puts out a list of anti-Obama talking points, which then make the rounds as "opinion" on the Sunday talk show circuit, and THOSE quotes are picked up by the 'news outlets' as crazily consistent headlines (even though they're quoting different people, it all ends up being the same meme).

Back to here: the same kind of background noise, based on a consistent "list" of talking points: The competition is 'catching up', Apple is alienating customers, losing mindshare, no Mac Pro in years, the "Final Cut X fiasco", no 'touch capability' in OSX (cue WIndows comparison)… make sure you use certain adjectives and descriptives: narrow, limited, crappy, ditching Apple, limiting, unexciting...

And then the big fail finish: "Apple just hasn't been EXCITING for a long time"...

I almost expect them to cue Samsung Ad copy:  SAMSUNG has the MOST EXCITING products available today!


Either you are paid to be posting here, or you have drunk the Glenn Beck-styled koolaid from the paid-PR 'news' cycle… 

Whether or not Apple has lost a couple of points of global market share is almost immaterial. Their products remain hugely in demand, margins (even adjusted) still above the competition by multiples, and their product mix, although appearing "limited" to some, actually satisfies any real needs people have in computing/telephony, etc...

When the hype and gimmicks have faded, Apple still stands as the most used, the highest quality, and the most consistent across the board… I find that pretty exciting myself...

Did you consider the fact that those might be people's actual opinions? Unlike the political news circuit, this forum is an inconsequential corner of the internet where opinions get the attention of tens of users and affect nothing in the broader world. This is a forum. One of likely millions on the web. People aren't here to promote interests outside their own. There is no grand conspiracy against Apple.

Here's my inconsequential, non-promotional opinion of iOS - it's stale. It's exceedingly well made and popular. But it's stale. I think a lot of diehard Apple users are even a little bored with it. Not all of them are, obviously, but enough that Apple could lose a bit of market share as people try new things.
post #45 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

OS X will never merge with iOS.

And it needn't.

 

Launchpad + OS X App Store take it sufficiently in that direction for those who want it.

post #46 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I commend you on that post, and thank you for the link. We all can (and will) certainly read into Apple's response what we wish to.

 

Just curious: do you think you might ask Samsung IR why they don't report shipment volumes or discuss channel inventory? Here's the link I got from their IR page: https://contactus.samsung.com/customer/contactus/formmail/mail/MailQuestionGeneral.jsp?SITE_ID=76&PROD_ID=2088

I figure it should be your turn now. especially since you got all the way to their contact page already. You saw the type of response I get. 

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post #47 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Carpenter View Post

...Microsoft has Windows 8 ( buggy ) but none the less it works...
 

 

 

LMAO!

That is a quote worth remembering. Fine logic. Sounds like something Yogi Berra would have said!

post #48 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I commend you on that post, and thank you for the link. We all can (and will) certainly read into Apple's response what we wish to.

 

Just curious: do you think you might ask Samsung IR why they don't report shipment volumes or discuss channel inventory? Here's the link I got from their IR page: https://contactus.samsung.com/customer/contactus/formmail/mail/MailQuestionGeneral.jsp?SITE_ID=76&PROD_ID=2088

I figure it should be your turn now. especially since you got all the way to their contact page already. You saw the type of response I get. 

At least, Apple responds.

 

I've emailed Samsung IR twice with those questions during the past year. Never got a response!

 

You might have better luck.....

post #49 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I've emailed them twice with those questions during the past year. Never got a response!

 

You might have better luck.....

Then it sounds like a waste of my time, but I'll play. I'll send them an inquiry later on today. FWIW Samsung already pinned part of the blame on intensifying competition, widely read as Apple litigation.

... there are increased risks that the information we provide may adversely affect our own businesses.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904888304576475693866644746.html


Edited by Gatorguy - 5/14/13 at 11:16am
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post #50 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post
FWIW Samsung already pinned part of the blame on the on-going litigation with Apple.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904888304576475693866644746.html

That's plainly b-s, and you know it.

post #51 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

That's plainly b-s, and you know it.

Actually I don't know that. I'm assuming that Apple has to go thru the discovery process now to get any product numbers. Whether that creates any difficulty or delays in Apple lawsuits I don't know.So it could be BS or it could truly be a part of the reasoning behind the decision.

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post #52 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

That's plainly b-s, and you know it.

Actually I don't know that. I'm assuming that Apple has to go thru the discovery process now to get any product numbers. Whether that creates any difficulty or delays in Apple lawsuits I don't know.So it could be BS or it could truly be a part of the reasoning behind the decision.

Here's what I predict the response will be, to the two questions: (i) We don't report volumes shipped because Korean reporting standards do not require us to; (ii) We don't know (or are not sure of) how to estimate channel inventory.

 

We'll see.

post #53 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

 

Sounds like 'selective observation' to me.

 

No question, Samsung has been selling well to the lower end market, using designs that mostly copy what Apple initiated back in '07 with the release of iPhone… But your subjective 70-30 and 60-40 projections don't necessarily reflect real sales numbers, nor do they compare meaningfully. Comparing iPhone to EVERYTHING Samsung makes is silly. That's like comparing cheaper compact class cars in your sales comparisons to Benz E-class sales, and declaring that Ford is "winning" since they sell more of them...

 

And you're dead wrong about "more and more" wanting to switch to bigger screens. For all the phablet noise, it turns out that the larger screen phones aren't selling nearly as well as they hype will lead you to believe. Recent reports show they still occupy only a tiny niche in the low single digits...

 

I think that in fact people feel kind of silly holding a huge slab up against the side of their head. Let's hope Apple does NOT go there.

Yeah you're right its a little selective :-)
But believe me that i'm an apple investor an therefore I observe very carefully the market in Europe. Also there are analysts covering the european market an it's not looking good for apple. I'm not sure if the S4 is what you qualify a low-end Phone but thats were the most are heading :-(. The sales are very promising for Samsung :-( in Europe right now.

I reduced my apple stock 1/3 but i'm still heavily invested. I have stop-loss orders to protect my money and some stocks were sold today at 449,50.

Best regards



 

post #54 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post
FWIW Samsung already pinned part of the blame on the on-going litigation with Apple.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904888304576475693866644746.html

That's plainly b-s, and you know it.

I should have added, if you actually read the WSJ article you linked to, what Samsung said was: "As competition intensifies, there are increased risks that the information we provide may adversely affect our own business."

 

It was analysts who told the WSJ that the change in reporting practice was "probably due to its continuing legal battle with Apple."

 

Big difference, don't you think?

post #55 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I should have added, if you actually read the WSJ article you linked to, what Samsung said was: "As competition intensifies, there are increased risks that the information we provide may adversely affect our own business."

 

It was analysts who told the WSJ that the change in reporting practice was "probably due to its continuing legal battle with Apple."

 

Big difference, don't you think?

I edited my post about 20 minutes before yours to clarify just that point. 

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post #56 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teamracer View Post
.... i'm an apple investor an therefore I observe very carefully the market in Europe. ....

I reduced my apple stock 1/3 but i'm still heavily invested. I have stop-loss orders to protect my money and some stocks were sold today at 449,50.

Just curious. Where/how do you trade your Apple shares sitting as a (I assume) retail investor in Europe? Also, in which country do you live?

post #57 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Here's what I predict the response will be, to the two questions: (i) We don't report volumes shipped because Korean reporting standards do not require us to; (ii) We don't know (or are not sure of) how to estimate channel inventory.

 

We'll see.

All they have to do to estimate channel inventory is the same thing Apple does.   (Just a little poke to the ribs...1biggrin.gif)

 

But yor could be right and that may be the response. Personally I expect another non-answer.

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post #58 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I should have added, if you actually read the WSJ article you linked to, what Samsung said was: "As competition intensifies, there are increased risks that the information we provide may adversely affect our own business."

 

It was analysts who told the WSJ that the change in reporting practice was "probably due to its continuing legal battle with Apple."

 

Big difference, don't you think?

I edited my post about 20 minutes before yours to clarify just that point. 

So what are you actually saying? That you don't have a point to your original post -- i.e., there was nothing in what Samsung said that implied they stopped reporting volumes because of litigaiton with Apple?

post #59 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

So what are you actually saying? That you don't have a point to your original post -- i.e., there was nothing in what Samsung said that implied they stopped reporting volumes because of litigaiton with Apple?

How did you read their statements message? What risks to their business are they likely referring to in your opinion?

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post #60 of 98
OT: anyone know why Apple dropped 2% this afternoon? It was down most of the day but only $1-$2, then all of a sudden this afternoon it dropped like $10, when others like Google and Microsoft are on fresh highs. What gives?
post #61 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

All they have to do to estimate channel inventory is the same thing Apple does. 

I would have no trouble at all if they did that. I would accept their numbers at face value if they brought it up in a post-earnings analyst conference call.

 

What you fail to understand is that going public with this kind of disclosure -- even though it is voluntary -- requires you to be as truthful as you can, for otherwise, you run a massive risk of being caught out, with all kinds of negative reputational consequences. Sensible companies simply cannot afford to lie or dissemble with such disclosure.

post #62 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

How did you read their statements message? What risks to their business are they likely referring to in your opinion?

That they're embarrassed to bring it up since: (i) The numbers are not as good as everyone claims they are (remember "smooth"?); (ii) Their ASP sucks.

post #63 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Just curious. Where/how do you trade your Apple shares sitting as a (I assume) retail investor in Europe? Also, in which country do you live?

Luxembourg.

 

I visit Germany and France very often :-)

 

post #64 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I would have no trouble at all if they did that. I would accept their numbers at face value if they brought it up in a post-earnings analyst conference call.

 

What you fail to understand is that going public with this kind of disclosure -- even though it is voluntary -- requires you to be as truthful as you can, for otherwise, you run a massive risk of being caught out, with all kinds of negative reputational consequences. Sensible companies simply cannot afford to lie or dissemble with such disclosure.


Doesn't Apple always use qualifiers when they report their channel inventory estimates, perhaps so as to avoid being nailed on specific claims? As a seasoned investor you know more about it than I do.

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post #65 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

That they're embarrassed to bring it up since: (i) The numbers are not as good as everyone claims they are (remember "smooth"?); (ii) Their ASP sucks.

So their numbers used to be better and their ASP didn't suck when they reported sales prior to the middle of 2011? It could just be a coincidence I suppose that the timing happened to coincide with the beginning of Apple's lawsuits against Sammie.

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post #66 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

Apple was able to slow down its tablet market share freefall with the ipad mini, its needs to move asap on the phone side.

Overwhelming dominance of the tablet market is not 'freefall'. The only reason percentages are dropping is because crapola tablet-shaped readers are being disingenuously called 'tablets'.

post #67 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

of course, when we are not happy with the numbers lets question the source...

 

Fact is Apple is painting itseft into a niche corner just like it did in the 80's. This year is pretty much last chance for Apple to come out with multiple iphone models that adress the entire market. 

 

Apple was able to slow down its tablet market share freefall with the ipad mini, its needs to move asap on the phone side.

 

I agree.  Apple had a huge lead in every aspect and did a great job exploiting it, but when the lead started shrinking they failed to adjust their strategy until they didnt have a choice.  Even moving from a 3.5" screen to a 4" screen was like pulling teeth.  Here we are in mid 2013 and a bigger screen and lower end phone are just conjecture.  I will be curious to see what they come out with in the fall, but one has to wonder what could have been.

post #68 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teamracer View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Just curious. Where/how do you trade your Apple shares sitting as a (I assume) retail investor in Europe? Also, in which country do you live?

Luxembourg.

 

I visit Germany and France very often :-)

 

So what platform do you use to make retail trades in the US?

post #69 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post
It could just be a coincidence I suppose ....

I think you suppose right.

post #70 of 98

Speaking of sales and screen sizes, I ran across a report of the top UK phones sold last quarter:

 

 

The first thing that jumped out to me, is that over 27% of the total phones sold were iPhone models.


The next is that at least 40% of the total phones sold had 4" or larger screens (it could be.. and probably is... more, since this only lists the top ten).   At least 18% were 4.3" to 4.8".  That's a pretty good market chunk.

 

Then I decided to chart the relative popularity of only the Android phones in the top ten.  Turns out the overwhelming majority of the top sold are $300 and up.

 

 

And then only the relative popularity of the five Samsung phones in the top list:

 

 

Now, this leaves out the other phones that didn't make it to the top ten list, but it's still interesting to chart the most popular individual models.


Edited by KDarling - 5/14/13 at 12:32pm
post #71 of 98
They are leaving it a bit late to release new tech but if they release something different this will change and they will be back at the top again. The problem is that there are others that are releasing really good devices with the size screens people want, big. And windows8 phones are going to be a big challenge to beat when they break the the sales wall they have been behind for a few years. Microsoft is investing too much into a phone for it to fail and it does not lag or freeze or need resets like the android devices on tech that is a year old. I can only imagine what it would be like if they release on a device with the top specs. And their app store seems to be growing strongly albeit slowly, some big names have just announced they are going to start building apps for wp8.

I hope that apple can come up with something that lets everyone breath a sigh of relief, otherwise there is a good chance that if the marketshare drops further than developers will be making apple the second choice for apps design.
post #72 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

So what platform do you use to make retail trades in the US?

 

A can purchase stocks from my online-banking  at the main stock markets.

For american stocks the purchases are made via nasdaq

post #73 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

No doubt your analytics firm is infinitely more successful than "idiots" like Gartner, but kindly tell us:  for the period covered, what do you imagine is the difference between "sales" and "shipments", and what is the source for your data?

The truth is that Samsung and all the other firms are not really selling any phone! They just "ship" the phones to the stores then take them back in the middle of the night and throw them into the ocean! Everything is a lie! There are no Android phones, just iPhones! It's just a lie, lie, lie and a big conspiracy against Apple!

post #74 of 98
Originally Posted by Billandben View Post
…windows8 phones are going to be a big challenge to beat…

 

Challenge? Beat 'em with one hand; they'll break pretty easily. 


…when they break the the sales wall they have been behind for a few years.

 

Except they're never going to do this. People hate Windows 8 desktop, they hate it on the tablet, and they hated Windows Phone 7.


Microsoft is investing too much into a phone for it to fail…

 

Except it will, if their "success" over the last few years is any indicator… Amount invested has nothing to do with success.


I hope that apple can come up with something that lets everyone breath a sigh of relief, otherwise there is a good chance that if the marketshare drops further than developers will be making apple the second choice for apps design.

 

More false concern and FUD… Don't you people have anything better to do?

post #75 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Just curious. Where/how do you trade your Apple shares sitting as a (I assume) retail investor in Europe? Also, in which country do you live?

Do you think you have to live in US to trade Apple shares? Everybody in the world can trade at NYSE. You just open an account with a US broker and start trading.

post #76 of 98

What bothers me most about this kind of reporting, is that it doesn't attempt to determine the accuracy of the information, nor any relationship between the parties.  First it should have been mentioned that Samsung does not disclose actual retail sales, but only products shipped.  Apple only discloses sales that are completed and delivered to a purchaser.  Samsung can ship as many phones as they make, but can they actually sell them?  Secondly, Gartner is notorious for their inaccurate numbers.  Appleinsider has reported in the past on these inaccuracies, including an article In April of 2011 where Gartner predicted that Windows phones would control about the same amount of market as Apple by 2012.  Finally, there is an ongoing financial and business relationship between Samsung and Gartner.  About 6 months ago Gartner put on The Gartner Symposium/ITxpo 2012 with Samsung as the Premier Sponsor. To add to this, the very researchers that deliver these figures that the press reports without question, are many times ex-Samsung employees.  The research director for Gartner covering Samsung and its competitors, was Samsung's product marketing manager for mobile application processors immediately prior to working for Gartner.  It is one thing for a company to continue to put out information called research that is a veiled advertisement for Samsung, but a very sad commentary on the fourth estate, the press, to blindly distribute the information without any research and verification.

post #77 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnarpy View Post

...It is one thing for a company to continue to put out information called research that is a veiled advertisement for Samsung, but a very sad commentary on the fourth estate, the press, to blindly distribute the information without any research and verification.

Because for the most part, there is no "press" such as you describe anymore.   The lure of free content on click-bait advertising sites has virtually wiped out news reporting and analysis.  We got what we paid for, and we're stuck with it.

 

ps: gargle analytics tells me that you forgot to brush your teeth after lunch, again.

post #78 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

Computer business is not the car business. You must maintain critical mass to keep the ecosystem going on. IF Apple gets to low it will start losing its devs.

Okay, I agree it's not like the car business.  So how do you start-up as a new company with a new product?  If it's not possible, then perhaps it's time to change the rules.  Somehow. 

post #79 of 98

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damn_Its_Hot View Post

This reminds me of when HP said its numbers for the webOS Tablet were in line with what it expected and everyone was speculating a million or more sold initially--only to find out that the initial run was only 90,000 (although they made more for some reason and then had a fire sale).

 

Such examples are very short-lived, usually only one or two quarters at most before they're exposed.   Samsung has continued to report revenue increases and sales milestones for a couple of years now.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Here's what I predict the response will be, to the two questions: (i) We don't report volumes shipped because Korean reporting standards do not require us to; (ii) We don't know (or are not sure of) how to estimate channel inventory.

 
Even American standards don't require reporting channel inventory.  Heck, Apple only started mentioning it in their voice calls months after the iPhone went on sale, and only then because suddenly people were asking where millions of sold iPhones were disappearing to, since carrier activations didn't jibe with Apple's numbers.   (It turned out to be partly inventory buildup, and partly unlocked phones being sent overseas.)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnarpy View Post

First it should have been mentioned that Samsung does not disclose actual retail sales, but only products shipped.  

 

Samsung does not disclose products shipped, either, but they do disclose revenue from which extrapolations can be made, partly from their public milestone announcements for major products.

 

Quote:
Secondly, Gartner is notorious for their inaccurate numbers.  

 

Definitely Gartner can be terrible at predictions.  They seem to be much better at past numbers.

post #80 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billandben View Post


I hope that apple can come up with something that lets everyone breath a sigh of relief, otherwise there is a good chance that if the marketshare drops further than developers will be making apple the second choice for apps design.

Developers care about making money. iOS makes more money for them than Android whether it be for paid apps or ad impressions.
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