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post #81 of 126
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Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

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Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Conservative Republicans, Libertarians and the like, generally behave very selfishly in my opinion.

 

Thanks for sharing your opinion, however mis-informed it may be...at least regarding libertarians. The fallacy is thinking that advocating for liberty and against state provision of things implies taking a position against those things. The fallacy is thinking that because one opposed a group of people taking your property by force to be spent on things you may or may not agree with means you simply wish to keep all your money for yourself.

 

 

Love to here your review of The Virtue of Selfishness by Ayn Rand 

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post #82 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Love to here your review of The Virtue of Selfishness by Ayn Rand 

 

Would have to read it first. No time (or interest) right now. As general rule though, I wouldn't consider selfishness virtuous. That said, I try to avoid judging a book by its title. 1wink.gif


Edited by MJ1970 - 5/16/13 at 7:21pm

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post #83 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Would have to read it first. No time (or interest) right now. As general rule though, I wouldn't consider selfishness virtuous. That said, I try to avoid judging a book by its title. 1wink.gif

Yeah I guess Adam Shrugged is the only required reading these days

 

Oops Freudian slip there. Oh well one BS book referencing another BS book, perhaps you can see how that happens. I meant Atlas Shrugged.


Edited by mstone - 5/16/13 at 9:50pm

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post #84 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Yeah I guess Adam Shrugged is the only required reading these days

 

What ever you are trying to imply is lost on me. Why don't you just come right out and say what you're thinking?

 

In the mean time it is unclear how any of that is in any way a logical reply to what you quoted here:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970

 

Thanks for sharing your opinion, however mis-informed it may be...at least regarding libertarians. The fallacy is thinking that advocating for liberty and against state provision of things implies taking a position against those things. The fallacy is thinking that because one opposed a group of people taking your property by force to be spent on things you may or may not agree with means you simply wish to keep all your money for yourself.

 

If you believe those are not fallacies, that's fine. Shifting gears (and subject) to the writings of Ayn Rand smells like a red herring to me.

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post #85 of 126
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Originally Posted by eat@me View Post

Apple is using every loophole and trick known to Wall Street and leveraging offshore accounts to "pay every dollar they owe" which is very little.  They used loopholes to pay dividends.

 

Now, I'm all for business and pro-business but this Apple corporate tax dodging highlights a big problem where average working people like me pay the most into the system

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/17/apple-corporate-income-tax-rate_n_1429955.html

And exactly how many billions in taxes did you pay to Uncle Sam in 2012?

 

 

Stateside, where the California-based technology giant is based, Apple paid $12.3 billion (£7.7bn) in federal taxes on profit generated in the U.S., and just under $1.1 billion (£689m) in state taxes.

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post #86 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Yeah I guess Adam Shrugged is the only required reading these days

 

What ever you are trying to imply is lost on me. Why don't you just come right out and say what you're thinking?

 

In the mean time it is unclear how any of that is in any way a logical reply to what you quoted here:

Sorry, let's reconvene after you've read the book as that probably will answer some of your questions.

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post #87 of 126

People just don't want to admit it. Apple pays every penny of taxes that they are legally supposed to pay just like everybody else is supposed to by law. Anybody who claims to pay more in taxes than mandated by law is either lying or not right in the head. If Congress doesn't like the amount of taxes Apple or anyone else pays, all Congress has to do is change the tax laws. This Cook interview before the government is just grandstanding by our politicians, nothing more.

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post #88 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Sorry, let's reconvene after you've read the book as that probably will answer some of your questions.

 

It will be a while (if ever). What question do you think I have that you think this book will answer? Because the main question I have right now is how this is in any way a response to my post.

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post #89 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZREOSpecialist 
I think Cook is rather foolish to sit in a congressional hearing, being asked questions, and looking like Apple is on trial when it isn't. Cook should have taken a pass and instead, invited a few Senators to discuss tax policy with him at his headquarters in Cupertino without any cameras present. That is how you do things. Now Cook is going to open his big fat mouth, look like a criminal in front of questioning senators, and Apple's stock will fall again.

Thanks Tim!

Apple is in the process of a stock buy back program; the lower the price, the better for long term shareholders.

Short-term speculators may get hurt or make a fortune, depending on their bets.
post #90 of 126
They're just mad because Apple doesn't give them as much money through lobbyists...
post #91 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

It will be a while (if ever). What question do you think I have that you think this book will answer? Because the main question I have right now is how this is in any way a response to my post.

 

As a spectator of the discussion in this thread, disappointingly with no popcorn, I'd just like to say that you have argued your case admirably.

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post #92 of 126
I strongly doubt anyone ever said the tech industry "illegaly avoids paying taxes". Like huge banks and the oil industry, the tech industry stays in the boundraries of the law and pays "every dollar they owe, as calculated by very expensive accountants and tax lawyers".


Just like the "we'll never do a cheap iPhone" of Tim Cook, which never meant they won't do a cheaper iPhone but just that they won't do a crap-iPhone, this comment means nothing.


"We're doin' it legal". Yeah, we know. That's the problem, and it's not Apple-specific. It stems from a societal model where you're valued at the money on your bank account, rather than by what you bring to society (taxes, innovation, art, whatever seems like a valid contribution to *our common pool of wealth*, which exists because we're a society instead of individuals in a cave alone).

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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post #93 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

It stems from a societal model where you're valued at the money on your bank account, rather than by what you bring to society (taxes, innovation, art, whatever seems like a valid contribution to *our common pool of wealth*, which exists because we're a society instead of individuals in a cave alone).

 

Perhaps the real problems are that we live in world where people assume that:

 

a) the amount in your bank account (or on your pay stub) don't reflect what you have brought or are bringing to society, and,

b) that taxes (money taken by force and spent by the government) does reflect your contribution to society, and,

c) that wealth you have earned (through voluntary exchanges) is "our common pool of wealth", and,

d) that wealth exists simply because because we're a society and not because you have worked hard, along with others, all of whom have been compensated for the value they have given to each other, resulting in the creation and growth of wealth

 

Money is simply a measuring stick. The amount of you you have accumulated, assuming you've done so through voluntary exchanges and absent fraud and theft, does reflect the value you have contributed to society.


Edited by MJ1970 - 5/17/13 at 5:44am

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post #94 of 126

When Apple pays its quarterly dividends, the amount paid to US citizens/institution shareholders should be tax free because the recipient will be tax for that income. Otherwise its like double taxing.

 

This would allow Apple to bring back to the US the amount paid from its offshores accounts.

 

Very nice explaination of the problem with the oversee cash:

http://goo.gl/ATVPl


Edited by herbapou - 5/17/13 at 9:54am
post #95 of 126

Apple has done nothing illegal or even immoral! The profits in question are from legitimate overseas sales...not US sales the company funneled into offshore accounts. As such, Apple has already paid taxes on these profits in the country or countries in which they originated. The reason these funds have not been repatriated back to the US is because of our absurd corporate tax structure in which repatriated overseas profits are taxed at the full 35% corporate rate. NOt only is this double taxation, it makes no sense mathematically because Apple can borrow money at close to 1% interest (for dividends, R&D, etc...) instead of paying 35% on the money they have already earned and paid taxes on overseas! Apple already paid over $6 billion in US corporate taxes last year alone, and they are estimating $7 billion this year! The problem continues to be our archaic tax code! Anyone who is complaining that Apple "is not paying their fair share" is an IDIOT!

post #96 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordon Eagan View Post

Apple has done nothing illegal or even immoral!

 

In fact, they have probably done the most moral thing they could do in this situation: Keep as much money as possible away from the criminals in government who spend it on wasteful and even immoral things.

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post #97 of 126

I see a common misconception here. A lot of people keep using the term "bring money back to the US" or "keeping their money offshore". I think this is the main issue that is breeding the resentment specifically towards Apple but it is not a factual claim. The funds "offshore" were never made in the US (maybe initially when Apple was starting to globalize, but not within the last 15 years or more), so the idea that Apple is hiding its money overseas is incorrect. Apple, as a global company, has offices, retail stores, manufacturing set-ups and general partnerships all over the world that generate cash. That cash goes into accounts locally and gets taxed accordingly to by the local governments. The cash stays there for continued use as global business keeps growing (new retail, R&D, continued partnerships). The cash Apple makes domestically is the cash horde most used to facilitate the day-to-day business (running the headquarters, salaries, retail, R&D, Domestic taxes, ect.). Apple is not taking their domestically earned income and hiding it offshore, they are using it to run the domestic portion of the company and paying all the taxes that requires. Demanding that Apple also bring in foreign cash into the US so that it can be taxed when it had nothing to do with the domestic economy is overstepping the boundaries that the government should be allowed to collect. If those funds were never introduces to the US Economy, then the government has no right to it's taxation. Most of the arguments contrary to this are using the improper numbers. Such as the article in the first reply comparing financial results showing how much Apple makes as a whole (globally) and comparing that to how much they paid in taxes domestically; when that is never going to be an accurate account of both how much they made domestically or how much they paid in taxes globally.

Don't get me wrong, there ARE a lot of companies that do hide their money offshore from domestic profits and that needs to be cut out. It doesn't benefit the local economy from which the money was taken from. However Apple, being the largest corporate taxpayer, doesn't have that luxury as they are constantly scrutinized. Being the "largest" ironically puts you under a microscope. Domestically, they aren't a tax problem - this is a cacophony of analysts trying to short the stock and politicians looking to have their palm greased. In England and Spain however they are dodging as they have been moving their profits from those countries to Ireland. That's the EU's problem and it's up to them to sort it out.

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post #98 of 126
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Originally Posted by websnap View Post

I see a common misconception here. A lot of people keep using the term "bring money back to the US" or "keeping their money offshore".

 

There's actually something quite similar with the whole "bring jobs back to the US" and "shipping jobs overseas" as if a) these are things that are "owned" by the US (or even by some individuals) in some way, b) that they are physical goods of some kind, or c) that they "belong" in/to the US.

 

There's a fairly US-centric (dare I say ego-centric) view of the world he in the US. It is our own version of geocentricism and will look just as foolish 100 years from now (if not sooner.)

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post #99 of 126
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Originally Posted by rickag View Post


Raise the taxes on corporations and this cost is passed on in the price you and I pay. Corporations don't pay taxes you do, always have always will.

 

Corporations price their products and services at a point where profit will be maximized, regardless of the tax rate. Raise your price higher, you sell less; lower your price, you sell more. Somewhere in the mix is the optimal price to obtain the highest gross profit. Taxes play no role in this dynamic equation, as it is an expense that comes into play much further downstream.

 

If companies could increase prices to make more profit, they would have already done so. They certainly don't need the excuse of 'we need to compensate for our higher tax burden'!

post #100 of 126
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Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

There's actually something quite similar with the whole "bring jobs back to the US" and "shipping jobs overseas" as if a) these are things that are "owned" by the US (or even by some individuals) in some way, b) that they are physical goods of some kind, or c) that they "belong" in/to the US.

 

There's a fairly US-centric (dare I say ego-centric) view of the world he in the US. It is our own version of geocentricism and will look just as foolish 100 years from now (if not sooner.)

 

 

Yeah, it's kind of foolish in one sense - I mean imagine if China decided they wanted to tax the US sales of the products made in there. Ridiculous, I know... it would be double dipping, but to be honest I don't really see a difference between that and taxing foreign-made money that is kept foreign just because the headquarters of the company in is Cupertino.

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post #101 of 126
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Originally Posted by websnap View Post

Yeah, it's kind of foolish in one sense - I mean imagine if China decided they wanted to tax the US sales of the products made in there. Ridiculous, I know... it would be double dipping, but to be honest I don't really see a difference between that and taxing foreign-made money that is kept foreign just because the headquarters of the company in is Cupertino.

 

Or even income for US citizens even when they DON'T live in the US.

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post #102 of 126
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Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Or even income for US citizens even when they DON'T live in the US.

 

 

See that, I think, is a bit different and really should be looked at by a person by person situation. A person being a citizen, in the sense that at any point all rights and privileges of being a US citizen can be enacted without pause by moving back. You are essentially paying to have one foot in if, for any reason, you want to pull up stakes and move back without applying for status. A company, especially now in the reality of true globalization, may be a national entity (Apple is an american company) it's international parts are still local. There is nothing American about the Store in Barcelona. The employees, managers... their salaries... everything is local. 

I know corporations are "people" in the states, but the rest of the world doesn't see it that way so they need to be seen as separate and most importantly - held to separate laws. I still think the handling of taxation in regards to income to US citizens abroad should be reviewed. It's not like a recent grad teaching english in Korea should be taxed like someone who owns homes around the world. In that case the difference in tax laws shouldn't come down to just income.

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post #103 of 126
I never thought I would think of Mitt Romney when I think of Tim Cook 1smile.gif
post #104 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by eat@me View Post

Apple is using every loophole and trick known to Wall Street and leveraging offshore accounts to "pay every dollar they owe" which is very little.  They used loopholes to pay dividends.

 

Now, I'm all for business and pro-business but this Apple corporate tax dodging highlights a big problem where average working people like me pay the most into the system

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/17/apple-corporate-income-tax-rate_n_1429955.html

 

Thats a nice pile of BS.  Apple pays its taxes in the countries it makes its sales. The problem is the US wants to charge the difference between the country rates and the US rates when Apple tries to move the cash into the US. The result is the cash stays offshore unless the country has a >= 35% tax rates, in which case Apple can bring the cash to the US without additionnal charge.

 

For example, if Canada tax rate is at 25%, Apple pays 25% to Canada on sales made in Canada. But if they move the profits made in Canada to the US, the US wants another 10% on top of what Apple already paid (35% - 25% = 10%).  This is where the US system is flawed.

 

This has absolutly nothing to do with tax dodging. Apple does do it with itunes sales in some cases (example: itunes ireland hub deserved the EU), but not with hardware. Tax dodging with software sales or ads is a major problem with Google and Amazon, but not Apple.


Edited by herbapou - 5/17/13 at 10:20am
post #105 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_veritas View Post

Corporations price their products and services at a point where profit will be maximized, regardless of the tax rate. Raise your price higher, you sell less; lower your price, you sell more. Somewhere in the mix is the optimal price to obtain the highest gross profit. Taxes play no role in this dynamic equation, as it is an expense that comes into play much further downstream.

 

If companies could increase prices to make more profit, they would have already done so. They certainly don't need the excuse of 'we need to compensate for our higher tax burden'!

It's not so simple. An increase in the corporate tax rate is not like the increase in the cost of an input into your production process that affects some firms/industries and not others.

 

It is across-the-board, and affects every firm.

 

That is why the pass-through of its effects to the consumer depends on the industry structure. In an oligopolistic industry, everyone could pass-through this "cost increase" and the consumer is stuck. Sure, industry demand may fall, but the aggregate after-tax industry profit at the new demand level could still exceed the previous after-tax profits (as a result of which, it also depends on the nature of the demand function).

post #106 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by c4rlob View Post

I never thought I would think of Mitt Romney when I think of Tim Cook 1smile.gif

 

You can continue to not think that, too. The issue isn't personal tax, it's Apple's domestic tax as a corporation. No one is calling into question he personal tax, nor is he running for office.

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post #107 of 126
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Originally Posted by websnap View Post

See that, I think, is a bit different and really should be looked at by a person by person situation.

 

I disagree.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

A person being a citizen, in the sense that at any point all rights and privileges of being a US citizen can be enacted without pause by moving back. You are essentially paying to have one foot in if, for any reason, you want to pull up stakes and move back without applying for status.

 

How is that different from any other nation?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

It's not like a recent grad teaching english in Korea should be taxed like someone who owns homes around the world. In that case the difference in tax laws shouldn't come down to just income.

 

Right. It should come down to who you think has more than (you think) they "need" or more than (what you think is) their "fair share."

 

1rolleyes.gif


Edited by MJ1970 - 5/17/13 at 10:32am

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post #108 of 126
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Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

 

Thats a nice pile of BS.  Apple pays its taxes in the countries it makes its sales. The problem is the US wants to charge the difference between the country rates and the US rates when Apple tries to move the cash into the US. The result is the cash stays offshore unless the country has a >= 35% tax rates, in which case Apple can bring the cash to the US without additionnal charge.

 

For example, if Canada tax rate is at 25%, Apple pays 25% to Canada on sales made in Canada. But if they move the profits made in Canada to the US, the US wants another 10% on top of what Apple already paid (35% - 25% = 10%).  This is where the US system is flawed.

 

This has absolutly nothing to do with tax dodging. Apple does do it with itunes sales in some cases (example: itunes ireland hub deserved the EU), but not with hardware. Tax dodging with software sales or ads is a major problem with Google and Amazon, but not Apple.

 

 

Word. This.

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post #109 of 126
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Originally Posted by eat@me View Post

Apple is using every loophole and trick known to Wall Street and leveraging offshore accounts to "pay every dollar they owe" which is very little.  They used loopholes to pay dividends.

Now, I'm all for business and pro-business but this Apple corporate tax dodging highlights a big problem where average working people like me pay the most into the system

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/17/apple-corporate-income-tax-rate_n_1429955.html

Hate the game not the players. You would do the same thing if you could.
post #110 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Your point? Every single major corporation will use every single loophole available, as long as it's legal. Its what they pay their legal and accounting teams to do. Any company that does not do so is negligent. Yet you want Apple to cripple itself willingly, and pay a higher share of taxes than other corporations..because? You want Apple to play by rules that no other corporation plays by, just to give more money away?

Oh, and I'm pretty sure you don't pay "the most"-whatever the hell that means.  Apple one of the largest US corporate tax payers in existence. The US gvt gets BILLIONS annually in revenue from them. 

So just to keep track with what's currently expected to Apple from analysts and investors- they need to sell MORE units, at CHEAPER prices, while making MORE profit, MORE margin, and paying MORE taxes. Got it. 

I bet the government's mouth is watering just thinking about all of the cash Apple keeps overseas.
post #111 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I disagree.

 

 

That is your right, and I am not disputing that. We don't agree.

 

Quote:
How is that different from any other nation?

 

It's not (to my knowledge), though my knowledge of the matter in every country is limited. I am Canadian. If I worked or lived in the US as well, I would retain my Canadian Citizenship (well, I would regardless) and pop back for healthcare or voting or a multitude of reasons (probably why i've never moved out of Canada) and for that right I should be paying for it as I would be utilizing the benefits/general infrastructure paid for and provided by taxes. If someone, to use this example again, has been teaching for five years in Korea and has been back maybe twice for a weekend or two during that time; they shouldn't be paying at the same rate as someone who has multiple homes around the world and stays for varying lengths of time at varying schedules but pays the same rate. Especially if they are making their money regardless of where they are. If they are using American resources (child's education, roads, anything else payed for by taxes), I feel they should be kicking in more than they person that's never there and not using tax-funded services. That's my opinion of what would be fair, but you don't have to share it. My opinion means less than your's in this instance since I'm not in the US nor a citizen. Our tax laws are different.

 

Quote:

Right. It should come down you who you think has more than (you think) they "need" or more than (what you think is) their "fair share."

 

1rolleyes.gif

 

No, it has nothing to do with who I think has more than they need. It is not about punishment of success or anything like that. I'm looking at stress on the system and putting in what they take out. Again, I'm not just talking about some imaginary person with more money than god because of the multiple homes comment. The person teaching may have a house they are renting out while they are gone. Not a factor. I'm using that as an example of what facilitates having one foot in the country and one out when finances are in question. Do you want someone using more than you but contributing less when they can pay more? 

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post #112 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

I'm not sure who in their right mind would not agree with this. 35% to repatriate is absolutely ridiculous. Corporations would have to be insane or suicidal to throw almost 40% of that money down the toilet for little to no benefit.

If they got rid of the repatriation tax or lowered it considerably, it incentivizes moving operations abroad. If you think about two businesses, one based in the US and another based in a low tax province, the low tax province would have a competitive advantage over the US business when selling to a common region. For example, their iTunes service based in Luxembourg could have a competitive advantage over a US-based streaming service. If there's no penalty for moving the profits back home to the US then it could easily have a worse effect on US businesses.

Companies always go on about getting tax breaks and say that it will boost job creation but they don't do it as records show. Jobs are created based on need, not based on charity. When there is no need to expand, companies invest profits in the stock market and because none of it is based on resources any more, it quickly gets very disconnected from what's happening in the resource-based economy.

Government does very unfair things with taxes of course like bailing out certain companies they decide should be saved - I'm pretty sure they'd have let Apple fail when they were near bankruptcy - so I don't think it can ever be a clean line of pro-government or pro-business. Like I say, having no repatriation tax would negatively affect US businesses but having it means that government takes a large amount of money that they haven't earned and don't spend sensibly.

Apple wouldn't be paying 35% or more, just the difference between what they paid abroad and the US tax rate, which is fair as that's what they'd be paying if they were based in the US - they actually don't pay that rate on US operations, which is perhaps why they're not happy to pay the repatriation rate because they couldn't avoid the full rate. They are free to leave it abroad but it's unethical to do that if there's a need to use the funds in the US and instead they use alternative means to fund that like they did recently:

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-05/2/apple-borrowing

Yes, unethical behaviour is not necessarily unlawful but laws are written to maintain ethical behaviour so if enough unethical behaviour is discovered, laws will be written up to correct it. One such law might be that companies can't borrow at low rates if they have large amounts of cash overseas.

Apparently they get away without paying the repatriation tax if they record a loss:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericsavitz/2012/11/13/revealed-how-u-s-companies-can-repatriate-cash-tax-free/

There are probably ways they can record a loss in the US and offset that against their overseas profits to avoid the tax. The agenda either way is to avoid paying taxes that are imposed on other US companies. This isn't as much big business vs government but big business vs small business. A US Apple reseller would have to pay the full tax rate while selling the same goods as Apple which doesn't pay the full rate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunami78 
The US corporate tax rate is damn near 40%. Higher than almost anywhere else in the developed world. Apple is FAR from the only corporation doing this, nor should they be.

The sales tax is lower though, you can't pick one tax and say it's unfair when others are more fair. All the taxes are balanced out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram 
I see no good coming out of this (and hope nothing bad does). Entirely unnecessary

Governments need to maintain an open dialog with companies to benefit both of them. Big businesses need to be made aware that taxes have to be paid fairly and when a company like Apple is hoarding over $100b overseas, they need to find out a compromise. There may be other incentives that can be offered outside of a direct tax break that makes it more worthwhile for Apple to take on more staff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram 
The consumer pays because companies pass-through the effects through their product pricing. Why do they do that? Because what matters at the end of the day for a company's market value is is its **post-tax** (expected) returns.

I don't think it's very easy for businesses to pass Corporation Taxes onto consumers. That comes directly out of their profits. If you double your profits, government takes double the tax. If you increase your profits too much then the product prices are not competitive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 
I think everyone should be paying substantially less in taxes. Everyone.

So when you knock government services down to a fraction of the size you won't be expecting an emergency service at the other end of the phone line when you need it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 
eliminate the (corporate and personal) income tax altogether and go with a national sales tax.

I'd say the opposite. Eliminate the sales tax and only tax profits. Lower sale prices boost consumer spending and higher profit tax affects people who are making lots of profit, which isn't a problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 
Money is simply a measuring stick. The amount of you you have accumulated, assuming you've done so through voluntary exchanges and absent fraud and theft, does reflect the value you have contributed to society.

It reflects the amount you've hoarded from a closed monetary system. If you win the lottery, inherit wealth, have stock go up massively, your personal contribution is near zero and your financial hoarding can be immense. It is absolutely not a measure of contribution. The net worth of an individual is in what they give, not what they take and in no way are those proportional to each other in any absolute way. You'd be suggesting that the high salaries of government employees are a direct measure of their contribution to society.
post #113 of 126
Ther is nothin false about what he said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Dear Tim,

Your ``Apple CEO talks taxes ahead of hearing: 'We pay every dollar that we owe''' wears thin.

Try this one on for size: Apple CEO talks taxes ahead of hearing: 'We pay only what the present US Tax Code requires.'

``Sure, we know it's absurd, but we are well within that absurd set of loop-holes corporate bribery/lobbying has influenced when writing the laws.''

P.S. As a NeXT/Apple alumnus I never agreed with the way Fred Anderson pushed the boundaries any more than I do with Peter Oppenheimer uses every loop-hole the corporate effective tax rate allows. But to do otherwise would have shareholders proclaiming they weren't doing their jobs.

When corporations stop bleeding the nation with handouts and then demanding tax shelters then perhaps a sweet spot in the tax revenue curve will happen. It will take a complete gutting of all tax loopholes for corporations before that happens.

You want to reduce your tax burden, then start reinvesting in your company R&D and technical talent. Sorry, you don't get to artificially raise your stock price by streamlining your tax burdens any longer.

There is nothing false about what he said. Why don't you forego deducting your mortgage interest, property taxes and any charitable contributions you may have listed on your tax return so that they can be used for the common good. Oh and don't forget to declare any online purchases that you have made throughout the year that had no sales tax imposed on them either.
post #114 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

I'm looking at stress on the system and putting in what they take out.

 

So you don't know what you're talking about then.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #115 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

So when you knock government services down to a fraction of the size you won't be expecting an emergency service at the other end of the phone line when you need it?

 

Ahh...and we have a false dilemma/choice. Good for you!

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I'd say the opposite. Eliminate the sales tax and only tax profits. Lower sale prices boost consumer spending and higher profit tax affects people who are making lots of profit, which isn't a problem.

 

You'd be attacking the problem exactly the opposite of the way you should. But thanks for playing.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

It reflects the amount you've hoarded from a closed monetary system.

 

Hoarded? Closed monetary system? So you don't know what you'r talking about either? I notice you skipped right over the part where I earned the money in the first place and jumped right to your Marxist wealth-is-a-zero-sum game perspective. Good job.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

If you win the lottery, inherit wealth...

 

Arguably these are corner cases.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

...have stock go up massively, your personal contribution is near zero...

 

Incorrect. But thanks for trying.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

...your financial hoarding...

 

There we go with that whole hoarding thing again. How foolish and ignorant.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

You'd be suggesting that the high salaries of government employees are a direct measure of their contribution to society.

 

Actually, I wouldn't, because, if I recall, I specified wealth or income that comes from voluntary exchange. Government employees are not paid from voluntary proceeds so they do not fit that category. Arguably they are parasites.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #116 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

I'm looking at stress on the system and putting in what they take out.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So you don't know what you're talking about then.

 

I'm sorry all I'm hearing is you talking but not actually saying anything.

 

I don't know what I'm talking about on a lot of things, want to be specific or are you just making noise and pounding your chest?

It's only after you've lost everything that you're free to do anything.

Tyler Durden | Fight Club
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It's only after you've lost everything that you're free to do anything.

Tyler Durden | Fight Club
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post #117 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

I don't know what I'm talking about on a lot of things, want to be specific...

 

Sure:

 

 

Quote:
I'm looking at stress on the system and putting in what they take out.

 

People who have earned their income and wealth through voluntary exchanges are not "stressing the system". They are, in fact, making "the system" better by producing and exchanging and creating wealth and generally raising the standard of living.

 

The people "stressing the system" are those who are taxing it, taking money out and destroying wealth and generally distorting the economy. This the government. That's who is "stressing the system." Apple, for example, is not "stressing the system."

 

P.S. Your whole view of stress on the system appears to betray a vie of the system as closed and fixed and static in some manner. It is none of these things.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #118 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Love to here your review of The Virtue of Selfishness by Ayn Rand 

 

Are you for or against Ayn Rand? Or have you no opinion?

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #119 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

People who have earned their income and wealth through voluntary exchanges are not "stressing the system". They are, in fact, making "the system" better by producing and exchanging and creating wealth and generally raising the standard of living.

 

The people "stressing the system" are those who are taxing it, taking money out and destroying wealth and generally distorting the economy. This the government. That's who is "stressing the system." Apple, for example, is not "stressing the system."

 

P.S. Your whole view of stress on the system appears to betray a vie of the system as closed and fixed and static in some manner. It is none of these things.

 

Ah, the old "job creators" deal. I'm really not going to go into that. I am not American, so me speaking on US politics is disingenuous. I don't care. Not to say I don't care for the well-being of my American brothers and sister across the border, I do (I even have family who have lived there all of their lives) but the partisan bullshit and bizarre punishment based on economic status playing out down there is not for me. We aren't talking about the same "system" and the only "standard of living" being raised by job creators is their own, which is fine, as long as they don't lie saying it benefits everyone because it does not. It benefits the fortunate.

No, I'm dropping this. My initial comment was about the corporate tax as applied to Apple and how it has been misconstrued to punish a company that does well internationally and keeps the money it makes overseas, overseas. I also never said Apple was stressing the system, I said the imaginary person in my example was.

It's only after you've lost everything that you're free to do anything.

Tyler Durden | Fight Club
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It's only after you've lost everything that you're free to do anything.

Tyler Durden | Fight Club
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post #120 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

Ah, the old "job creators" deal.

 

I'm speaking more generally and broadly about how the economy works to create wealth and how everyone who engages in voluntary exchanges helps to create wealth. But whatever.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

I am not American, so me speaking on US politics is disingenuous. I don't care. Not to say I don't care for the well-being of my American brothers and sister across the border, I do (I even have family who have lived there all of their lives) but the partisan bullshit and bizarre punishment based on economic status playing out down there is not for me.

 

1confused.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

We aren't talking about the same "system" and the only "standard of living" being raised by job creators is their own, which is fine, as long as they don't lie saying it benefits everyone because it does not. It benefits the fortunate.

 

So you really don't know what you are talking about. I was right after all.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

No, I'm dropping this. My initial comment was about the corporate tax as applied to Apple and how it has been misconstrued to punish a company that does well internationally and keeps the money it makes overseas, overseas. I also never said Apple was stressing the system, I said the imaginary person in my example was.

 

Whatever. 1rolleyes.gif

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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