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Google engineers talk fragmentation, how to make Android work for emerging markets - Page 2

post #41 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMcM76 View Post

In fairness these version distribution graphs are produced so developers making apps to release through Google Play know which versions they should be targeting for potential customers - the fact that there are another X million devices out there that never access google play is irrelevant to the developers as they will never be a potential customer for the app in the first place...

Of course the big side effect of this is that it does make Androids fragmentation problem look a whole lot better than it would be if you included every cheap froyo / gingerbread running heap of junk that comes free with your packet of cereal.
It's also very deceptive. When a consumer chooses an Andriod phone over an iPhone for the same price, there is the assumption that it is better and will run any apps other new Android phones can run. For a new phone to run an OS that can't even access Google Play is not fair to the consumer. There should be a huge disclaimer required listing this fact everywhere its sold.
post #42 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


Google wasn't responsible on putting Android on a device other than a Nexus (which do get updates), so why does it fall on Google to update another manufacturer's phone?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


The manufacturer chooses to ignore it not Google. Google has done it's part in updating the OS, it's up to the manufacturer to make it workable for their device.

Funny. PC OEMs don't have a problem with Windoze updates. They're handled by Micro$oft. 

 

That's where Google's problem (and your ignorance) comes in. Google should've made Android a Google-responsible update mechanism, the same way Micro$oft does for Windoze. Any way you try to defend Google other than that, you're wrong. 

post #43 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by genovelle View Post

It's also very deceptive. When a consumer chooses an Andriod phone over an iPhone for the same price, there is the assumption that it is better and will run any apps other new Android phones can run. For a new phone to run an OS that can't even access Google Play is not fair to the consumer. There should be a huge disclaimer required listing this fact everywhere its sold.

What phone is that? I'm not aware of any phone that can't access Google Play, tablets yes phones no.
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post #44 of 178

"the team spoke on a number of topics related to Google's overwhelmingly popular operating system."

 

Overwhelmingly popular?

I think most users of smart phones don't give the OS of their mobile phone a single thought. 

post #45 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Both 'in' and 'on' in this instance are acceptable and make sense.

It was a joke.

Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #46 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post

on that note, within this forum is ideal.

 

If a tree falls in a dream, was there a dream?

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post #47 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursadorable View Post

I said before, Apple made the right decision in demanding carriers allow Apple to control the OS on the iPhone.  One of the largest issues with cell phones has been carriers who shovel their own baked version of an OS onto their devices (with the appropriate crapware installed), and when updates become available they rarely push them out to users.  There is no money in it for the carriers, so it's unimportant to them.

It would be like Dell selling you a computer that could only run Windows XP SP1, and never be upgraded to SP2 (or beyond).  We don't put up with it on computers, why do we allow it on our portable devices to be feature frozen by the carrier?

Sure Apple has some fragmentation due to aging devices, but it's far far worse with an Android device.. even tablets that are not tied to a carrier who will sell new devices with older Android versions and be slow to update them (if ever).
To be fair, the handset makers are equally to blame. They have no reason to support a product with updates anymore than the carriers. The only party with interest is Google and they do not take part in the device distribution.
post #48 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

If a tree falls in a dream, was there a dream?

If a tree falls on a dream then there's no more dream
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post #49 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo42 View Post

The OS calculation is done this way to provide developers with better information on the target demographic.  Activations are a bit different because even if the owner never access the play store, they're still likely to use Google's own services with the applications which are included.

That still is misleading because overall activations are also announced to court third party developers.
post #50 of 178

RC, why do you quote trolls? We need a list of

a) trolls,

b) those who quote trolls.

Then both could be blocked and real discussion could ensue. 

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post #51 of 178

Goggle doesn't copy anything. They put giant desserts on their lawn. Not the same as giant pixelized icons.

 


Edited by VL-Tone - 5/19/13 at 6:49am
post #52 of 178
Originally Posted by os2baba
[post]


Shut up… and go away.


Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post
If a tree falls on a dream then there's no more dream

 

If it falls on the dreamer.


Originally Posted by mhikl View Post
RC, why do you quote trolls? We need a list of

a) trolls,

b) those who quote trolls.

Then both could be blocked and real discussion could ensue. 

 

I have the former. The latter doesn't matter much when the former is gone.

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Originally posted by Marvin

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post #53 of 178
The announcement that everyone missed except android central was the fact that Google changed the feature upgrade system to include them within the Google play services framework. This means that Google can now implement api's that can be used on different versions of Android, and this will limit most fragmentation problems.

For example, a feature of jelly bean was photo sphere. This was packaged with android 4.1. But now with the new Google play framework, photo sphere can be called upon by developers to add to their camera applications.

Google has essentially made upgrading to a new version of android irrelevant. Most likely updates to Android from now on will be security updates and Linux kernel updates.

Some people discussed that this was Google way of getting back at Amazon. Since amazon doesn't use Google Play services framework, any updates to Android (in terms of features) won't be included in the AOSP build, so amazon won't be able to use them (so Kindle owners won't be getting Google Play Games Services)
post #54 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


Google doesn't control the manufacturers, they don't listen even when Google tells them something.

 

Google told Acer not to release a phone running Aliyun, an Android fork.

 

Acer complied.

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post #55 of 178
Nevermind. (Delete this post)
post #56 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by VL-Tone View Post
Nevermind

good album, yeah

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post #57 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


If a tree falls on a dream then there's no more dream

 

On or in or in on?

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post #58 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Google told Acer not to release a phone running Aliyun, an Android fork.

Acer complied.

Interesting, thanks for the link. I'm wondering if naming it differently had anything to do with it. Amazon doesn't mention Android but they also don't name the OS something else.
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post #59 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

On or in or in on?

On in lol.gif
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post #60 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Google told Acer not to release a phone running Aliyun, an Android fork.

Acer complied.

"The [Google] reportedly said it will terminate its Android-related partnership and technology licensing if "the partner" releases products running Aliyun OS."

Yikes! So much for Google having an open-source OS that anyone can freely use when they use their power and position to force vendors not to fork an "open" OS.

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post #61 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

"The [Google] reportedly said it will terminate its Android-related partnership and technology licensing if "the partner" releases products running Aliyun OS."

Yikes! So much for Google having an open-source OS that anyone can freely use when they use their power and position to force vendors not to fork an "open" OS.

I'm guessing one is allowed to do whatever they want with it just not give it another name. Having a "open" OS doesn't mean that they have to bend over and "open" their butt cheeks.
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post #62 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by realitychecks View Post

They have the power and position as per the OHA agreement. Hence why they didn't say anything to Amazon because they couldn't because Amazon isn't part of the OHA.

It really isn't complex nor nefarious.

I don't think that's in any way accurate. They allow you to fork the OS,but when you do you can't say it's Android since it's no longer Android, it's just based on Android. Also note they canceled the entire event, which could have easily ben avoided if it was just needing a name change back to Android.

The most likely answer is Google is afraid Android forks killing Android and their revenue schemes streams (1smile.gif)that they used their position to prevent Acer from using this Android fork. It may not have been dropping Acer altogether but could have been not allowing them access to the paid Google features for that fork, which Acer may have thought it could still use under their current license.

In no way do I think Google had a problem with their name.
Edited by SolipsismX - 5/19/13 at 8:08am

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post #63 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

I'm guessing one is allowed to do whatever they want with it just not give it another name. Having a "open" OS doesn't mean that they have to bend over and "open" their butt cheeks.

So Apple didn't have to allow Google to fork WebKit? Of course they did. That licensing allows such options. What is not allowed is Google stealing Apple's WebKit trademark after they fork the engine.

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post #64 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post


That still is misleading because overall activations are also announced to court third party developers.

 

You're right, a better metric would be "activations by OS version that are active in the play store". However, there may be no reliable way to measure it.  There is nothing useful to read from that activations number and developers are better off ignoring it.  

post #65 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by realitychecks View Post

They have the power and position as per the OHA agreement. Hence why they didn't say anything to Amazon because they couldn't because Amazon isn't part of the OHA.

It really isn't complex nor nefarious.

Last I checked (a few seconds ago) Acer isn't part of the OHA either.
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post #66 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


Last I checked (a few seconds ago) Acer isn't part of the OHA either.

Acer joined the Open Handset Alliance in 2009, with the press release available here:

http://www.acer-group.com/public/News/2009/20090601.htm

 

There's also a fair article about the Acer/Aliyun issue here:

http://marketingland.com/google-acer-android-aliyun-21631

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post #67 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrodriguez View Post

The announcement that everyone missed except android central was the fact that Google changed the feature upgrade system to include them within the Google play services framework. This means that Google can now implement api's that can be used on different versions of Android, and this will limit most fragmentation problems.

For example, a feature of jelly bean was photo sphere. This was packaged with android 4.1. But now with the new Google play framework, photo sphere can be called upon by developers to add to their camera applications.

Google has essentially made upgrading to a new version of android irrelevant. Most likely updates to Android from now on will be security updates and Linux kernel updates.

Some people discussed that this was Google way of getting back at Amazon. Since amazon doesn't use Google Play services framework, any updates to Android (in terms of features) won't be included in the AOSP build, so amazon won't be able to use them (so Kindle owners won't be getting Google Play Games Services)

This will create more fragmentation, not less.

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post #68 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo42 View Post

 

The OS calculation is done this way to provide developers with better information on the target demographic.  Activations are a bit different because even if the owner never access the play store, they're still likely to use Google's own services with the applications which are included.

 

The bolded part is not necessarily true and basically a bold assumption on your part.  It seems far more likely to me that if a user never accesses the store, that they aren't using the phone as a "smartphone" at all and are thud not using Google's services either.   

post #69 of 178

Isn't it interesting how many topics about competitors there are on AppleInsider? How many articles that are intended to draw so much negative reaction to the articles. Its almost like flame bait....everyone can can post about how much they dislike the subject of the article and feel good about themselves. AI gets all the clicks and page views for the advertisers. Everyone gets to post and vent their frustration and dislike for the subject of the articles. has anyone ever questioned why there are soooo many articles about Apple competitors here?

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post #70 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

 

Google told Acer not to release a phone running Aliyun, an Android fork.

 

Acer complied.

Hill60, you've often showed a lack of understanding about the Android OS, and probably for good reason. There's Android, and then there's "Google Android" and Google hasn't done a great job of making the distinction clear. Danny Sullivan at Marketing Land wrote one of the best explanations, and added some darn good suggestions too, in a piece from this past September. Have a read at your leisure. I think it might clear up some of your obvious confusion and perhaps help make your future comments about the "openness" of Android more informative.

 

http://marketingland.com/what-is-the-one-true-android-and-how-open-is-it-21664

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post #71 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl View Post

RC, why do you quote trolls? We need a list of

a) trolls,

b) those who quote trolls.

Then both could be blocked and real discussion could ensue. 

 

But you can't block Tallest Skil because he's a moderator. 1smile.gif

 

We actually need our own individual meta-forums where we can block or allow whomever we want.  The "true" forum would be all the posts from everyone but we could all do our own sub-set, or "mix" of what is there.  This would help AppleInsider a lot too because their "mix" could be the forward facing one on the website and it could be all innocuous and self-promoting just as they'd wish it to be, but others could still get at the "true" forum full of insults, back-biting, etc. 

post #72 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

...their revenue schemes streams...


Geweldig! (can't find an English word for it, but it's positive)
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post #73 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

Isn't it interesting how many topics about competitors there are on AppleInsider? How many articles that are intended to draw so much negative reaction to the articles. Its almost like flame bait....everyone can can post about how much they dislike the subject of the article and feel good about themselves. AI gets all the clicks and page views for the advertisers. Everyone gets to post and vent their frustration and dislike for the subject of the articles. has anyone ever questioned why there are soooo many articles about Apple competitors here?

Because Apple screwed them by refreshing the entire lineup in one day. AI needs readers to pay the bills.
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post #74 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by os2baba View Post

I find this laughable.  Almost every major feature in iOS 4, 5 and 6 have essentially been copied from Android (and other OSes).  Features that have been on Android from ver 1.0 in most cases.

Classic. Apple invents the car, Android does tail fins first.
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post #75 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


The manufacturer chooses to ignore it not Google. Google has done it's part in updating the OS, it's up to the manufacturer to make it workable for their device. Google doesn't control the manufacturers, they don't listen even when Google tells them something. Google told Samsung not to copy iOS and they still did it, Google told Samsung not to put Gingerbread on a tablet and Samsung still did it. How can Google prevent a manufacturer from making a device with outdated components that can only run Gingerbread?

Yes, Google has done its part to be carriers' slave while at the same time bragging about openness. Isn't Andy Rubin boasted on stage 2 years ago about the program to make all Android phones up-to-date and failed miserably. Sounds like he didn't get your memo that it's not Google's job.

post #76 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


Interesting, thanks for the link. I'm wondering if naming it differently had anything to do with it. Amazon doesn't mention Android but they also don't name the OS something else.

No. the reason is clear and state plainly by Android chief but you Google shill doesn't want to accept it. Just googled it. It's because Google doesn't want any Android forks. They can strong-armed Acer, but they can't strong-armed Amazon.

post #77 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


I'm guessing one is allowed to do whatever they want with it just not give it another name. Having a "open" OS doesn't mean that they have to bend over and "open" their butt cheeks.

Google shill. :rolleyes: They just can't accept the fact that Google is a hypocrite company we all know it is, can they?

post #78 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by studentx View Post

"In recent months, Google has changed the way it calculates the distribution of Android versions. While the company acknowledges that many devices are still on Gingerbread, first released in 2010, it now publicizes proportions only related to the users that access its Google Play Store, meaning that many Android device users essentially go uncounted with regard to developers.

Classic. They didn't like the numbers so they only counted what they want to see. This discounts all of the Android phones only being used as feature/dumb phones.

If so they should only count activations that "access its Google Play Store". You know, phones activated and being used as smartphones.

This is akin to the way the US Government calculates the Unemployment Statistics -- they don't count people who've been unemployed for such a long time that they have stopped looking for a job...

The Government reports unemployment as 7.5% of the workforce (April 2013) -- when the actual percentage is more than double that...

You massage the numbers however you can to make yourself look better!
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post #79 of 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

No. the reason is clear and state plainly by Android chief but you Google shill doesn't want to accept it. Just googled it. It's because Google doesn't want any Android forks. They can strong-armed Acer, but they can't strong-armed Amazon.

I didn't read that much into it. I was making a guess. I wasn't defending them, nor justifying it, big difference.
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post #80 of 178
Originally posted by Gatorguy:
Quote:

That's simply pathetic. Either it's open or closed. So they want to create a level of uniqueness by tagging hardware as 'Android compatible':
Quote:
“Real” Android
What are “real” Android devices. These are what Google would call “Android compatible” devices. These are Android devices that have passed a technical test, one Google hopes allows those who buy the devices to be assured that Android apps will run correctly.

Google hopes what? That the 'apps run correctly'? Maybe instead of hoping they should be copying the procedures that Apple undertakes for it all to just work. But that will be difficult, without any member on their Board.

I wish Google was drowning, so I could describe the water for them.
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