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post #41 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Most of the elections of the early 1800s.

 

I'm curious what changed then. What events or circumstances prompted this "consolidation?" Or was really no different from now in which we have "two" parties that are only superficially and marginally different from one another?

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post #42 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


Apple is estimated to pay $7B in taxes this year. Why should Apple pay more?

 

Depends.  How much did they earn?  And how much did they earn when you take out any financial chicanery?  A number on its own is pretty meaningless.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtamesis View Post

Just another greedy politician.

 

I don't understand comments like this.  Are you suggesting that Levin receives some kind of kick back for criticizing Apple?  The norm is for politicians to be called greedy when they cozy up to companies in exchange for campaign contributions and/or personal gifts, so I'm not sure where this partciular ire, which is in quite a different direction, comes from.

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post #43 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

I don't understand comments like this.  Are you suggesting that Levin receives some kind of kick back for criticizing Apple?  The norm is for politicians to be called greedy when they cozy up to companies in exchange for campaign contributions and/or personal gifts, so I'm not sure where this partciular ire, which is in quite a different direction, comes from.

 

Well, to be fair, people can be greedy for things other than money...power...celebrity...attention...etc.

 

Not saying that' what the original poster meant. But I don't think it's a spurious claim to suggest that politicians are often greedy even if not necessarily for money.

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post #44 of 158

Another thing for those saying all we need to do is close the loopholes, get a clue. Close the loopholes, but if and only if the rates are lowered to at or below the OECD average. The US currently has the highest corporate rates in the OECD. Getting rid of the expenditures and keeping the rates where they are would be a disaster for our competitiveness and simply encourage more companies to move operations to favorable tax jurisdictions.

post #45 of 158

"Apple is exploiting an absurdity, one that we have not seen other corporations use," the senator said. "And the absurdity need not continue."

 

Apple's response should be: "When the absurdity is ended, we will stop exploiting it. Until then, we have a fiduciary responsibility to our shareholders (many of whom are US citizens, pension plans, and retirement funds) to maximize the return on our capital. Have a nice day."

 

If you find a loophole and it works and is legal, keep using it - and use it to its fullest.

 

Steve had a low tolerance for stupidity. I would love to hear him testify before this committee. I suspect he'd tell them the problem is of their own making, go *bleep* yourselves until it's fixed. I have work to get back to.

 

- Jasen.

post #46 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post

So, stop bitching about Apple, and fix the tax code.  The problem is the Govt. not the companies they're trying to vilify.  Any company who isn't using every legal means to avoid paying tax isn't acting with due diligence.

You can bet they use every loophole they can.

We need to petition for these waste of time and taxpayer money witch hunts to end. Change the laws, prove one was broken or shut up.

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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post #47 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregord View Post

I could not agree more with the comments from Rand Paul. This is a disgusting sideshow, political grandstanding at its worst.

Apple should give him a lot of money for his campaign.  If Apple's guilty of anything, it's not getting politically involved to protect human rights and property rights from these scumbags.   McCain, such a hypocrite, pretends to be a republican and "anti-tax" then says what he said today. 

 

Also, it's dishonest to call this "Tax avoidance".   It's like they're "avoiding" taxes they "owe".... but the reality is, they don't owe taxes to the US government for sales outside the USA. 

 

They're non-taxes.  You can't "Avoid" it if you don't owe it in the first place.

 

This "tax avoidance" talk comes from the presumption we're all slaves and that all of our income is subject to tax.

 

It's ludicrous--- and ABSURDLY GREEDY-- that these socialist scumbags think they are due a cut for business that happens completely outside the USA.  Hell, they're not even due a cut for business within the USA.

 

Taxes are theft, and the thing about thieves is, they're never satisfied... they always want more and more.

post #48 of 158
And of course Sen Levin is well versed in the art of Tax Evasion. After all, he has avoided paying any Social Security and Medicare taxes for his whole Senate career. Funny how it is worng for a corporation to want to pay as little taxes as possible but a for politician it is just business as usual. As the old joke goes, be careful not to step in the "umpah" Mister Levin.
post #49 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm curious what changed then. What events or circumstances prompted this "consolidation?" Or was really no different from now in which we have "two" parties that are only superficially and marginally different from one another?

The civil war, reconstruction and the money that goes with it.
post #50 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

Apple is estimated to pay $7B in taxes this year. Why should Apple pay more?

Congress wants a raise.

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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post #51 of 158
1confused.gif Apple built the biggest, best company on earth, in history, and in the US. And we vilify it for no good reason? Not vilified? "It's unacceptable that corporations like Apple are able to exploit tax loopholes to avoid paying billions in taxes," McCain said." Unacceptable why? What alternatives did Apple have? Corporations like Apple? But only Apple on the griddle? Exploit loopholes? Loopholes McCain made? 1confused.gif
Edited by Stef - 5/21/13 at 8:37am
post #52 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stef View Post

Apple built the biggest, best company on earth, in history, and in the US. And we vilify it for no good reason?

 

They did the same thing to Standard Oil a hundred years ago (or so). It's SOP. Someone produces something extremely valuable, makes a boatload of money, then they get attacked in the press and Congress until they are knocked down a notch. It is the American way I guess.

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post #53 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi View Post


The only thing Apple's at fault for here, is not putting money behind serious political reform in this country.

So Apple should be required to fix the country? Is that before or after they take over and fix the ISPs, cable companies, cell phone services, schools, book publishers, TV nets, movie studios and record labels

Apple hasn't banked on reform for the same reason that they don't support any charities, Jobs felt the company didn't have the right to pick which charities and politics shareholder money should be spent on.

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post #54 of 158

I would quibble with the "we" in your statement. The Democrat from the once great state of Michigan is the one doing the vilifying. We the people recognize that what serves to fill our government coffers is not also the best thing for our economy. We recognize that a lower broader corporate tax rate would not only help our economy, but may actually increase tax receipts.

post #55 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenj1 View Post

If you find a loophole and it works and is legal, keep using it - and use it to its fullest.

 

Steve had a low tolerance for stupidity. I would love to hear him testify before this committee. I suspect he'd tell them the problem is of their own making, go *bleep* yourselves until it's fixed. I have work to get back to.

 

Let's stop calling it a loophole.  This plays into the lie that they are somehow "avoiding" tax.   It's not a loophole that the USA can't collect taxes for business outside it's jurisdiction.   It's simply the fact that the US Government has no right to a cut of business that occurs overseas.

 

It's sad that we've been conditioned to think and talk like slaves, and it's by design that they put things this way to try and even make thinking about it rationally impossible.  (Like calling people who believe in science "climate warming deniers", which presumes climate warming is a fact they are in "denial" of.)   Like the rejection of the science, that makes people incapable of considering scientific reality, politicians propagandize in a way that makes it difficult to recognize just how absurd their claims are.

 

Apple isn't "Avoiding" taxes, the TAXES DON'T EXIST!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
I don't understand comments like this.  Are you suggesting that Levin receives some kind of kick back for criticizing Apple?  The norm is for politicians to be called greedy when they cozy up to companies in exchange for campaign contributions and/or personal gifts, so I'm not sure where this partciular ire, which is in quite a different direction, comes from.

 

It doesn't matter how much Apple earned. It's their money and they are not your slave to exploit.

 

Politicians don't "cozy up" to companies-- they say "it's a mighty nice business you have here, be a real shame if something were to happen to it.".

 

Politicians only have the threat of violence- that's all government can do-- and so this shake down racket has been going on a long time.  The idea that politicians are cozy with corporations is part of the BS "corporations are too powerful" lie that is spread to keep people from realizing that it is politicians who have destroyed the economy.... and part and parcel to standard socialist propaganda. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

I'm curious what changed then. What events or circumstances prompted this "consolidation?" Or was really no different from now in which we have "two" parties that are only superficially and marginally different from one another?

 

Poltiicians are corrupt in their nature.  So they started passing laws that keep third parties off the ballots or give their own party an advantage. These laws are so entrenched now that the idea that America has "fair" elections is absurd.   Third parties spend all their time and money trying to get on the ballots and aren't even allowed into the debates.... this makes the elections a sham and a joke.  

 

Like in Iraq when Saddam Hussien won every time--- in America, the one party with two heads wins every time.

post #56 of 158

Yet again I find myself astounded at the poor quality of an AppleInsider article

 

 

 

Quote:
In opening remarks of a hearing Tuesday morning, the U.S. Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations accused Apple of being the mastermind of elaborate tax evasion practices that are unique to the iPhone maker.

 

 

Now, did he really use the phrase 'tax evasion'? I doubt it, because if he was accusing Apple of tax evasion then this would be a criminal trial and not a senate hearing.

 

Seriously, if AI believes that the terms 'tax evasion' and 'tax avoidance' can be used interchangeably then they should stick to copying stuff off other sites and leave the real journalism to MacObserver.

post #57 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post
So Apple should be required to fix the country? Is that before or after they take over and fix the ISPs, cable companies, cell phone services, schools, book publishers, TV nets, movie studios and record labels

 

I never said they should be required to do anything.  But if you're a business, you owe it to your shareholders to protect the assets of the business.  Apple has a lot of money in cash, denominated in dollars.  Those dollars are going down in value dramatically becuase of our corrupt political system, which inflates to cover their deficit spending.   Apple's ability to hold onto those dollars is weakened by the fact that we have poltiicians in office who don't respect property rights... and we can see here them gleefully lusting after Apple's money, and acting outraged that they can't engorge themselves on it. 

 

Apple owes its survival, in part, to the continued respect of property rights in america, and those rights are being ever eroded.

 

That's why they need to back political reform... not because I want it, or have any power to "require" them to.

post #58 of 158
Wow... is this ever turning into a witch hunt.
Find one company with big name recognition, crucify them and let the others (who are contributing to your campaigns) off.
There's plenty of room for corporate tax reform.
This is not the way.
post #59 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

Seriously, if AI believes that terns 'tax evasion' and 'tax avoidance' can be used interchangeably then they should stick to copying stuff off other sites and leave the real journalism to MacObserver.

 

Unfortunately, the term "Tax Avoidance" is designed specifically to sound like it means the same thing as "Tax Evasion"... the same way they say "automatic rifle" when they mean semi-automatic, or "assault weapon" when they mean "hunting rifle"... it's use of terminology to demonize. 

 

It would be better if AI was more careful, but AI merely slipped into the trap that was laid for everybody who sees this dishonest political terminology.

post #60 of 158
"We should have brought in here today a giant mirror, so that we can look at the reflection of Congress, because this problem is created by the awful tax code," he [Rand Paul] said."

End of story.
post #61 of 158
Whoa!! I can't believe that I have found myself in complete agreement with Rand Paul. Interesting how the idiots (Congress) that make the rules (i.e. the tax code) don't like it when a company plays (and wins!!) by the rules, but still manages to show just how idiotic the rules actually are. I love the irony!
post #62 of 158
This was posted on another website. The document is self explanatory if the Senate does the unthinkable and actually reads it. But that skill is sadly missing among that elite group.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/102512%20-%20JobDestroyers3.pdf
post #63 of 158
post #64 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post
They did the same thing to Standard Oil a hundred years ago (or so). It's SOP. Someone produces something extremely valuable, makes a boatload of money, then they get attacked in the press and Congress until they are knocked down a notch. It is the American way I guess.

 

Kids today still think Standard Oil was and evil monopolist.... the company that drove the price of gasoline down from $1.37 a galon (something like $13.70 in today's dollars) down to $0.27 a gallon!

 

They made motor transportation, previously the realm of the rich, and made it available to wide swaths of the public.  Even poor people could take bus service -- service that wasn't economically viable before.   They improved the lives of millions of people.

 

But politicians can't stand to see anyone making money and them not getting to take a generous cut, so they broke up standard oil and looted the company until there was nothing left. 

post #65 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi View Post

Let's stop calling it a loophole.  This plays into the lie that they are somehow "avoiding" tax.   It's not a loophole that the USA can't collect taxes for business outside it's jurisdiction.   It's simply the fact that the US Government has no right to a cut of business that occurs overseas.

The US should have a cut of business done in the US regardless of where the company is from. Just like when my Cali based company goes and does a shoot in Colorado, we pay sales tax, income tax etc for what we earned there. We don't quibble about it cause if our set burst into flames it's not Cali that is sending the fire fighters etc.

The issue here is that the US government wants to tax all money regardless of where it was earned and they are pissed that the laws block that. But on the flip side, if Apple were required to funnel everything through Apple USA then other countries are losing money for companies they are helping to support. How is that fair? It is actually more even if an international company has offices at least in several regions to spread the wealth, just like perhaps production etc should be in zones. US for North America, Brazil for South, Ireland for Europe, china for Asia/Pacific.

But rather like the studio and net heads that won't think global with their IP, the US government thinks only about itself and it is biting them in the butt

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post #66 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsonice View Post

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/102512%20-%20JobDestroyers3.pdf

 

That document explains it all folks.

No matter how many lives Polticians destroy in their quest for unearned wealth and power, they will always, ALWAYS, blame it on someone else.

 

They destroyed the healthcare system to the point where people couldn't afford health insurance, and what did they do? They blamed the insurance companies and then passed obamacare to nationalize the industry (which makes it even easier to loot.) 

 

The only questions is, how long will people continue to believe this kind of propaganda, until they wake up and notice-- the stimulus bill did not stimulate the economy, it made it worse, as economists predicted-- and every other such measure that is claimed to "help people" only helps the politicians and hurts the people.

post #67 of 158

Posting your propaganda from the socialist Bernie Sanders was so important you had to do it twice? How about instead of attacking companies that avoid taxes completely legally, you work toward a fair competitive corporate tax code, such as the one Apple suggests or the Ryan tax plan?

post #68 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

Wow... is this ever turning into a witch hunt.
Find one company with big name recognition, crucify them and let the others (who are contributing to your campaigns) off.

Yep, just like the 'slave labor' in China, Apple gets all the press while Google etc enjoy their lack of attention and keep doing the same things.

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post #69 of 158
I wonder how well the members of Congress' own tax returns would stack up in comparison to Apple's relative to income.
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From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
Google Motto "You're not the customer. You're the product."
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post #70 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

There isn't a word at just how ridiculous and absurd Levin's comments are. Government troll? Teckstudian politician?

Good ones. Or perhaps, Tax-Gate Creator.
I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
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post #71 of 158
Oh great, AI have found a new seem of click bait that they can abuse for a few months until something else happens.
Apple paid all of the taxes it was due, there are loads of companies that paid nothing at all.

I don't want to read about tax on here so maybe if we don't comment on the tax posts, they'll stop dragging them out.
post #72 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi View Post

Kids today still think Standard Oil was and evil monopolist.... the company that drove the price of gasoline down from $1.37 a galon (something like $13.70 in today's dollars) down to $0.27 a gallon!

 

That's what happens when you have a socialist propaganda system passing itself off as an educational system.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi View Post

They made motor transportation, previously the realm of the rich, and made it available to wide swaths of the public.  Even poor people could take bus service -- service that wasn't economically viable before.   They improved the lives of millions of people.

 

Even before that was replacing whale oil for interior lighting. Possibly actually saving the whales, ironically enough.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi View Post

But politicians can't stand to see anyone making money and them not getting to take a generous cut, so they broke up standard oil and looted the company until there was nothing left. 

 

Pretty much. Though it is astonishing how the Standard Oil wealth affects us even today. Did you know that even Apple, to some degree, owes its existence to the Standard Oil fortune? One of the early VC investors in Apple was Venrock.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #73 of 158
Quote:

Levin
The senator ... noted that he carries an iPhone in his pocket.

 

What a ringing endorsement.  Samsung should use this as their next campaign ad.1hmm.gif

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post #74 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Taking a dissenting opinion on the subcommittee was U.S. Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ken.), who criticized his colleagues for "bullying, badgering and berating" a great American success story. He said that Apple has broken no laws, and is simply following the rules of an outdated U.S. tax code.U.S. Sen. Rand Paul took his colleagues to task for Tuesday's hearing, suggesting they instead apologize to Apple and thank them for creating American jobs.

"Congress should be on trial for chasing the profits of American companies overseas," he said.

Paul characterized Tuesday's hearing as a waste of time, both for the politicians involved and for Apple executives who were in attendance to testify. He also suggested that other members of the subcommittee do all they can to lower their individual tax rates as well.

Rather than criticizing Apple, Paul said the subcommittee should apologize to the company, and compliment them for their job creation.

"We should have brought in here today a giant mirror, so that we can look at the reflection of Congress, because this problem is created by the awful tax code," he said.

Following the opening remarks on Tuesday, Apple Chief Executive Tim Cook and Chief Financial Officer Peter Oppenheimer are scheduled to testify. AppleInsider will have ongoing coverage throughout the day.

Thank God for Rand Paul....there is some common sense in Washington

post #75 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarfungo View Post

This ^^

This^^

post #76 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

That picture captures the perfect iconic image if a life long, fat cat politician.

I was thinking the only thing missing is the white powdered wig.

Why does Apple bashing and trolling make people feel so good?

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post #77 of 158
Its NOT a LOOPHOLE..... its the law..... If you go 48 in a 50 mph zone,,,, did you break the law or just use a loophole of driving less than the max????
post #78 of 158

Jessi, MJ and of course the MODS... Funny how just a few get it. For those without a clue here are some terms to look up...

 

IMF

MIC

Federal reserve act of 1934...   a few places to start...

 

There is no vote, there is no "free" country... Just the place we allowed them to build over the last 200 years... 1984 anyone? we are all prisoners in a GLOBAL gilded cage, sad but true. Get over it and go buy some bling for your device and eat at Sicky D's...

 

Remember when art was art? not a commodity? 

 

uh-oh... rant brewing....

 

Dear Apple, just keep making cool stuff for us, to hell with everything else.

 

my 2cents

 

Twist...

post #79 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldernorm View Post

Its NOT a LOOPHOLE..... its the law..... If you go 48 in a 50 mph zone,,,, did you break the law or just use a loophole of driving less than the max????

Of course it is a loophole when you consider the intent of tax law.
http://i.word.com/idictionary/loophole
post #80 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

lol.gif

 

1oyvey.gif

 

No. The problem is the government. The politicians and the voting patterns are the symptoms.

 

Considering the Government is "by the people, for the people", perhaps the real problem, is, well... people.

 

As a whole, people are stupid and shortsighted. Name any type of government created by people that has ever been successful (not just militarily or culturally, but morally, uncorrupt, etc.) in history.

 

...

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