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With spotlight on it & Apple, Ireland calls for worldwide tax crackdown

post #1 of 55
Thread Starter 
Ireland is in the spotlight following the U.S. Senate's investigation of Apple's alleged tax avoidance, and the low-tax nation is now calling for an international crackdown on tax dodging by multinational corporations.

Cork
Apple's headquarters in Cork, Ireland, via Flickr user Sigalakos.


Irish ministers are doing double duty in the wake of Apple's appearance before the Senate, looking both to deflect blame from Ireland's multinational-friendly tax structure and to encourage other countries to close loopholes that allow large corporations to skirt the tax laws of the countries they operate in. The minister in charge of attracting foreign companies to Ireland is now saying that those companies need to be brought under control, according to Reuters.

"They play the tax codes one against the other," Richard Bruton told Irish state broadcaster RTE, "and I think we do need international cooperation through the [Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development] to deal with the aggressive nature of that."

Ireland has long drawn criticism from other European nations for its low corporate tax rate of 12.5 percent. That tax rate encourages companies to locate at least some operations in Ireland for tax purposes, which is what Apple does, along with Google and Yahoo, Pfizer, and Intel, as well as many others. Of Ireland's two million-strong labor force, about 150,000 work for foreign companies headquartered there for tax purposes.

The criticism has grown as countries across Europe are tightening their fiscal belts in light of the soft economy. The potential tax revenue lost to Ireland has led to more grumbling from the country's neighbors, though Ireland has so far turned back any attacks. Now, though, thanks to scrutiny from the U.S. Congress, Ireland is closer to pushing for tighter rules on multinationals. The United States wields more economic and political power than does any individual European nation and could unilaterally start making things more difficult for those foreign countries headquartered in Ireland.

"The U.S. Congress, if they wanted to, could wipe out those 150,000 real jobs," Irish think-tanker John FitzGerald told Reuters.

The U.S. congressional investigation found that Apple had paid just two percent tax on $74 billion in income made outside the United States. Those funds were also made largely outside of Ireland, but Irish tax law says that a company can be incorporated within the country without being a tax resident.

Apple maintains that it has broken no law, and CEO Tim Cook has continually maintained that Apple pays "all of the taxes we owe ?every single dollar."

Cook further asserted that he has no plans to have Apple repatriate its more than $100 billion in cash holdings until the United States lowers the tax rate on earnings made overseas.

"It would be very expensive to bring that cash back to the United States," Cook told the subcommittee. "Unfortunately, the tax code has not kept up with the digital age."

The U.S. isn't the only nation interested in Apple's dealings with Ireland. The relationship between the two has come under scrutiny from both Britain and Spain in the recent past. A British report last year said that Apple pays about half the taxes it should by basing its operations out of Ireland.

A similar report from Spain's El Pa?s showed Apple routing 99 percent of its Spanish sales through Apple Operations International, its Irish subsidiary. That arrangement allowed Apple to pay only 2.6 million euros in taxes for 2012, even though its Apple Store sales were up 86 percent.

It's unclear what specific action Ireland will call for in the coming weeks, but the issue is likely to be raised at a summit of European leaders in Brussels.
post #2 of 55
Politicians.
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post #3 of 55
Isn't this just lovely, Ireland who chase companies to come and set up business there so they could do something about their very high unemployment is now say other countries have to fix their tax problems. The only reason Ireland was about to do this, was do to the high tariffs that the EU puts on non EU products.
post #4 of 55

That's so typically Irish.  

 

When caught, smile and be agreeable with the police. 

post #5 of 55

Learn from US politicians how to screw their own US Businesses, small or big!  Even if Apple along with other companies gives all of its cash to US government, still this country is in huge mess so its better that companies hide the money out of US!

Good that guys like Ben are printing their @ss out to keep the markets higher which helps the sentiment lol

post #6 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

That's so typically Irish.  

 

When caught, smile and be agreeable with the police. 

 

That's collectivist nonsense.

 

More than likely these positions that are making the headlines don't reflect the views of the people who live there. They are the beneficiaries of policies that attract businesses. I'd be surprised if politicians siding with the tax-grabbers aren't voted out come next election.

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post #7 of 55

Going to enjoy a Guinness while I watch this thread.

post #8 of 55
The tax law makes it impossible for Apple to compete with companies such as Samsung. Apple is already taxed on their profits overseas and then the US asks that if those profits are brought back home that they pay an additional 35%. Samsung typically pays nothing close to this. If you dropped the ridiculously high tax then maybe that cash would be brought back state side and would possibly help our economy.

Apple is doing nothing illegal! Our politicians have just FAILED on cutting the budget and are now looking to blame others for their mess.
post #9 of 55
Breaking News: Gravy Train derails in Ireland
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post #10 of 55
Every US corporation should move to Ireland - If the tax laws are that complicated in the US and leaves the companies with no reserves for bad times nor does the US want to leave any company with RND funds - I'm all for it and I am an american citizen. The US Gov must take more control of it's finances because at any time, Apple can go out of business and then the US gov is screwed again. Technology companies come and go and perhaps one day France or Spain may become a super tech district.
post #11 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving Muller View Post

The tax law makes it impossible for Apple to compete with companies such as Samsung. Apple is already taxed on their profits overseas and then the US asks that if those profits are brought back home that they pay an additional 35%. Samsung typically pays nothing close to this. If you dropped the ridiculously high tax then maybe that cash would be brought back state side and would possibly help our economy.

Apple is doing nothing illegal! Our politicians have just FAILED on cutting the budget and are now looking to blame others for their mess.

 

Quite right. Just look at how economic "incentives" have gutted our economy. There are always unintended consequences that go hand in hand with short-sighted laws.

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post #12 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Breaking News: Gravy Train derails in Ireland

Nonsense.

If other countries impose more taxes and more effectively enforce their tax code, it simply makes Ireland's low tax rates look even better. This is clearly a self-serving position.
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post #13 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving Muller View Post

The tax law makes it impossible for Apple to compete with companies such as Samsung. Apple is already taxed on their profits overseas and then the US asks that if those profits are brought back home that they pay an additional 35%. Samsung typically pays nothing close to this. If you dropped the ridiculously high tax then maybe that cash would be brought back state side and would possibly help our economy.

Apple is doing nothing illegal! Our politicians have just FAILED on cutting the budget and are now looking to blame others for their mess.

 

You must be unaware of foreign tax credit. There are some complexities to it. You don't mention anywhere what Samsung pays or why it matters for a company that isn't short on funds to reinvest.

post #14 of 55
Tax incentives are now seen as bad? ... Meanwhile States here in the USA do exactly the same thing to attract business. I always thought it was seen as the free market at work and an advantage to the overall economy in the long run. So I expect we will start seeing MI called out for all those ads on TV now touting business incentives to relocate there (and other States that do the same thing).
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post #15 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Tax incentives are now seen as bad? ... Meanwhile States here in the USA do exactly the same thing to attract business. I always thought it was seen as the free market at work and an advantage to the overall economy in the long run. So I expect we will start seeing MI called out for all those ads on TV now touting business incentives to relocate there (and other States that do the same thing).

 

While competition among governments is good (better than none anyway). I'm not sure it can be characterized as the free market at work. It's more akin to "come to our neighborhood, the property crime rate is lower."

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post #16 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving Muller View Post

The tax law makes it impossible for Apple to compete with companies such as Samsung. Apple is already taxed on their profits overseas and then the US asks that if those profits are brought back home that they pay an additional 35%. Samsung typically pays nothing close to this. If you dropped the ridiculously high tax then maybe that cash would be brought back state side and would possibly help our economy.

Apple is doing nothing illegal! Our politicians have just FAILED on cutting the budget and are now looking to blame others for their mess.

I'll agree that Apple have done nothing illegal and that our politicians have failed. They've let big multinationals get away with this for far too long. But...

You call a tax rate of less than 2% enough??? I saw one report that said it was even lower than that!

Also, is it fair that Apple and other multinationals divert sales and profits from products sold to other countries so they can pay much lower taxes? That's exactly what Apple are doing. Whenever you order online or buy in an Apple shop Apple are saying you bought that item through a foreign subsidiary so they can pay very low rates of tax, and not even in the country where it was sold and the profit made.

That is nothing short of an attack by corporations on a nation's financial sovereignty. If I buy a Mac in my country I want the profits Apple earns from that sale to be taxed in my country not funnelled through various subsidiaries in tax havens overseas so shareholders can get bigger dividends than they deserve.

Just because you (and I) have pathetic governments that mismanage their budgets and make dubious choices like spending a trillion dollars on a foreign war with no end in sight doesn't make what Apple and these corporations do any less immoral. Remember we are only talking about taxes on profits here, small profits mean small taxes.

The problem is not Apple, they are simply doing everything they can to minimise tax like you or I would. The problem is with incompetent governments and politicians for letting them get away with it for so long.
post #17 of 55
While Ireland seems to be taking advantage of the U S stupidly the real problem is the rate at which repatriating the money is
Why doesn't the US encourage all these companies holding almost 2 trillion dollars abroad to repatriate the money with a one time tax break. The reason is simple these guys in Congress are greedy and stupid and think that they're going to hold Apple and all the test of the companies hostage. WAKE up !!!!
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post #18 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

I'll agree that Apple have done nothing illegal and that our politicians have failed. They've let big multinationals get away with this for far too long. But...

You call a tax rate of less than 2% enough??? I saw one report that said it was even lower than that!

Also, is it fair that Apple and other multinationals divert sales and profits from products sold to other countries so they can pay much lower taxes? That's exactly what Apple are doing. Whenever you order online or buy in an Apple shop Apple are saying you bought that item through a foreign subsidiary so they can pay very low rates of tax, and not even in the country where it was sold and the profit made.

That is nothing short of an attack by corporations on a nation's financial sovereignty. If I buy a Mac in my country I want the profits Apple earns from that sale to be taxed in my country not funnelled through various subsidiaries in tax havens overseas so shareholders can get bigger dividends than they deserve.

Just because you (and I) have pathetic governments that mismanage their budgets and make dubious choices like spending a trillion dollars on a foreign war with no end in sight doesn't make what Apple and these corporations do any less immoral.

The problem is not Apple, they are simply doing everything they can to minimise tax like you or I would. The problem is with incompetent governments and politicians for letting them get away with it for so long.

 

By what standard have you arrived at these conclusions of "unfairness" what is "deserved" and the "immorality" of what they are doing?

 

I also find it interesting that you call Apple immoral for what it is doing (legally minimizing taxes) but then say they are doing what we all do (legally minimize taxes.)

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post #19 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Nonsense.

If other countries impose more taxes and more effectively enforce their tax code, it simply makes Ireland's low tax rates look even better. This is clearly a self-serving position.

Do you not have one funny bone in your body? I was being facetious.
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post #20 of 55

test

post #21 of 55
``Learn from US politicians how to screw their own US Businesses, small or big! Even if Apple along with other companies gives all of its cash to US government, still this country is in huge mess so its better that companies hide the money out of US!

Good that guys like Ben are printing their @ss out to keep the markets higher which helps the sentiment lol''

Spoken like a Randian.
post #22 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

While competition among governments is good (better than none anyway). I'm not sure it can be characterized as the free market at work. It's more akin to "come to our neighborhood, the property crime rate is lower."

lol
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post #23 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satorical View Post

test

hello world ...
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post #24 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post
Also, is it fair that Apple and other multinationals divert sales and profits from products sold to other countries so they can pay much lower taxes? That's exactly what Apple are doing. Whenever you order online or buy in an Apple shop Apple are saying you bought that item through a foreign subsidiary so they can pay very low rates of tax, and not even in the country where it was sold and the profit made.

That is nothing short of an attack by corporations on a nation's financial sovereignty. If I buy a Mac in my country I want the profits Apple earns from that sale to be taxed in my country not funnelled through various subsidiaries in tax havens overseas so shareholders can get bigger dividends than they deserve.

The only place that Apple does this is in the EU.  Their laws allow a company to say that the product you buy in Spain is being bought from a company based in Ireland, and the EU laws say that the taxes are then paid in Ireland, and not in Spain.  The VAT are still paid in Spain.

 

Every product that Apple sells here in the US and also anywhere esle in North and South America is sold by the American Apple company, and taxed here in the US.  NO money from products sold here in the US are moved over to Ireland to escape taxes.  In addition, Tim Cook stated that the Ireland company makes financial investments with the EU money, and the interest made on those investments is taxed and paid in the US.

 

If you need to complain, then look to the EU, which makes this kind of money move possible.  I see no reason why the US government is saying that this behavior is wrong, when pretty much every tech company does the same thing, and some even keep the money in offshore accounts to avoid paying US taxes.  It is quite obvious that the US tax law is stupid and needs a complete overhaul.

post #25 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Spoken like a Randian.

 

1rolleyes.gif

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post #26 of 55

We are shocked...SHOCKED! that companies are taking advantage of our low corporate tax rates.

post #27 of 55
Where do governments get their money? Taxes, much of which comes from big corporations.

What do corporations do when governments tax them? They move their operations to other countries.This creates a HUGE pressure to keep lowering and lowering taxes on corporations, lest they move overseas. It's a race to the bottom.

When the government has no money left, what do they do? BORROW.That means huge DEBT.

So, just think for a second. Shouldn't countries co-operate more to ensure that the corps pay their fair share?
post #28 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post


I'll agree that Apple have done nothing illegal and that our politicians have failed. They've let big multinationals get away with this for far too long. But...

You call a tax rate of less than 2% enough??? I saw one report that said it was even lower than that!

Also, is it fair that Apple and other multinationals divert sales and profits from products sold to other countries so they can pay much lower taxes? That's exactly what Apple are doing. Whenever you order online or buy in an Apple shop Apple are saying you bought that item through a foreign subsidiary so they can pay very low rates of tax, and not even in the country where it was sold and the profit made.

That is nothing short of an attack by corporations on a nation's financial sovereignty. If I buy a Mac in my country I want the profits Apple earns from that sale to be taxed in my country not funnelled through various subsidiaries in tax havens overseas so shareholders can get bigger dividends than they deserve.

Just because you (and I) have pathetic governments that mismanage their budgets and make dubious choices like spending a trillion dollars on a foreign war with no end in sight doesn't make what Apple and these corporations do any less immoral. Remember we are only talking about taxes on profits here, small profits mean small taxes.

The problem is not Apple, they are simply doing everything they can to minimise tax like you or I would. The problem is with incompetent governments and politicians for letting them get away with it for so long.

 

I am not sure what country you are in, but there are some factual mistakes.

 

Sales in the US are allocated to the US Apple Store subsidiary that runs the Apple Stores (which may be the parent corp, I don't know).  They are full taxed on those profits.  As has been seen (Forbes had a recent list that put Apple #3 on highest taxed corps) and Apple claims they pay $1 out of every $40 in corporate income tax collected in the US.

 

For the EU:

Sales sold in a physical Apple Shop are most likely routed through THAT COUNTRIES APPLE SUBSIDIARY.   I severely doubt that they can re-route sales through Ireland for sales made at a physical store.  If they were re-routing everything, they would pay 0 euros in taxes in Britain or Spain, which is not true, so obviously they are allocating something to it.

 

HOWEVER, for online sales made inside the EU, I would most definitely route things through Ireland.  All these European yahoo politicians wanted an open Europe wide market.  So that is what they got.  Apple running their online sales through an EU member that has lower taxes.   These countries have nothing to complain about.  It is part of the EU wide open market they wanted.  Unintended consequences, maybe.

 

This whole Ireland things is TWO SEPARATE ISSUES.  The issue of the repatriated profits coming back to the US and again being taxed and the issue of the open EU market meaning Apple can choose where to sell from for its online sales.   Those are two separate and distinct and unrelated issues.

 

And 2% taxes is TOO MUCH.  Corporate taxes should be 0%.  All taxes ultimately end up being paid  by the consumer.

post #29 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdq2 View Post

We are shocked...SHOCKED! that companies are taking advantage of our low corporate tax rates.

 

They're simply trying to avoid a military invasion by the US.

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post #30 of 55

[quote]

"They play the tax codes one against the other," Richard Bruton told Irish state broadcaster RTE, "and I think we do need international cooperation through the [Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development] to deal with the aggressive nature of that."[/quote]

 

There you have it-- at least according to this one guy, the OECD is not about supporting competition, but about eliminating it.

 

This is why the socialists want a world government-- so long as there are countries that are more free, and more capitalist, the companies will migrate to the more free countries and they will take their increased productivity and higher standard of living with them.

 

Socialists are parasites and they rely on businesses growing larger so that they can steal more and more of their money.

 

This is why you can't quibble over what taxes are "fair" or not.  The reality is, all taxes are theft.  Nearly all politicians are criminals and governments are nothing more than the mafia with elections to pick the new don.

post #31 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Mecca View Post

Every US corporation should move to Ireland - If the tax laws are that complicated in the US and leaves the companies with no reserves for bad times nor does the US want to leave any company with RND funds - I'm all for it and I am an american citizen. The US Gov must take more control of it's finances because at any time, Apple can go out of business and then the US gov is screwed again. Technology companies come and go and perhaps one day France or Spain may become a super tech district.

 

You've got the right spirit, though there are other jurisdictions that would be more beneficial than ireland.  Really, companies should internationalize themselves, with locations in many jurisdictions, and move their headquarters to whatever jurisdiction is most favorable to them.  This way countries will know that if they want ot keep the companies they have to keep their greedy ways in check.

 

It used to be that this is how things worked in the US with the states competing to be business friendly for the economic growth.  But since Lincoln enslaved us all under a federal government, that government has been growing in power and appetite ever since, and now you can avoid corruption in one state, but you can't avoid corruption in the federal government.... except by leaving the country, which is hard for a company like Apple to do.

 

Ayn Rand's famous novel "Atlas Shrugged" was originally called "The Strike" because it details what happens when productive businessmen have had enough iwth greedy politicians-- they go on strike. They let their companies fail and move to another land and start up businesses there.

 

The point being, they can start from nothing and make themseves whatever they want... but government can only survive on the productivity of others.

 

Government is a parasite.

post #32 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

 is it fair that Apple and other multinationals divert sales and profits from products sold to other countries so they can pay much lower taxes? That's exactly what Apple are doing. Whenever you order online or buy in an Apple shop Apple are saying you bought that item through a foreign subsidiary so they can pay very low rates of tax, and not even in the country where it was sold and the profit made.

 

So, if your in Germany and you order something on the Apple store, Apple pays German taxes on it instead of US taxes and this is somehow cheating? 

 

What I want to know is why is Apple paying US Taxes on products made in China and sold in Mexico, Canada and central america?  Shouldn't it be paying those taxes in Mexico, Canada and Central America? 

 

But getting the taxes due to other countries isn't enough for america's pig politiicans-- no they want Apple to pay them for the priviledge of selling all over the world.

 

It's asinine.  It's beyond greed.

 

And it shows just how corrupt the system is that people think that Apple is trying to get away with something here.  

 

It's like people have internalized their own slavery and think that not paying %100 of your income to your Master is somehow "cheating".   It doesn't belong to the master in the first place-- slavery is wrong.

 

I dont' care if Apple pays "only" %2 taxes (usually these numbers are not accurate, by the way).... I proclaim that this %2 in taxes they are paying is THEFT.

post #33 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Professer X View Post

Where do governments get their money? Taxes, much of which comes from big corporations.

What do corporations do when governments tax them? They move their operations to other countries.This creates a HUGE pressure to keep lowering and lowering taxes on corporations, lest they move overseas. It's a race to the bottom.

When the government has no money left, what do they do? BORROW.That means huge DEBT.

So, just think for a second. Shouldn't countries co-operate more to ensure that the corps pay their fair share?
 

 

Just think for a second. Maybe there's another option.

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post #34 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

Isn't this just lovely, Ireland who chase companies to come and set up business there so they could do something about their very high unemployment is now say other countries have to fix their tax problems. The only reason Ireland was about to do this, was do to the high tariffs that the EU puts on non EU products.

 

More countries than Ireland do this, just yesterday there was some happiness in Britain when Fiat announced they're be moving their non-car HQ to Britain and away from Italy for the lower corporate tax in Britain. Italy naturally feels unhappy about this.

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1094206/fiat-industrial-may-move-tax-base-to-uk

 

Part of what makes this possible is the EU allowing free movement of goods and services across borders, this is one of the side-effects that opens up.


Edited by Banalltv - 5/22/13 at 3:51pm
post #35 of 55
I agree! We have had such success in the past with "international cooperation" in areas such as world peace, pollution and trade agreements, lets bring that winning formula to tax law!

Seriously, what a bunch of idiots. Nothing is stopping any country from fixing its own tax laws other than the corrupt, moronic politicians holding office.

-kpluck

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post #36 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

I'll agree that Apple have done nothing illegal and that our politicians have failed. They've let big multinationals get away with this for far too long. But...

You call a tax rate of less than 2% enough??? I saw one report that said it was even lower than that!

Also, is it fair that Apple and other multinationals divert sales and profits from products sold to other countries so they can pay much lower taxes? That's exactly what Apple are doing. Whenever you order online or buy in an Apple shop Apple are saying you bought that item through a foreign subsidiary so they can pay very low rates of tax, and not even in the country where it was sold and the profit made.

That is nothing short of an attack by corporations on a nation's financial sovereignty. If I buy a Mac in my country I want the profits Apple earns from that sale to be taxed in my country not funnelled through various subsidiaries in tax havens overseas so shareholders can get bigger dividends than they deserve.

Just because you (and I) have pathetic governments that mismanage their budgets and make dubious choices like spending a trillion dollars on a foreign war with no end in sight doesn't make what Apple and these corporations do any less immoral. Remember we are only talking about taxes on profits here, small profits mean small taxes.

The problem is not Apple, they are simply doing everything they can to minimise tax like you or I would. The problem is with incompetent governments and politicians for letting them get away with it for so long.

I'm sorry but your post is total nonsense. When I buy, or you buy, an Apple product online or in an Apple store, that purchase is taxed IMMEDIATELY at the local tax rate, which in my case, since I am an expat living in China, is 17%!!!!! What's more, the employees that designed that device, marketed it, sold it to me, are all paying taxes through the jobs that Apple gave them, as are the people and companies that made them, shipped them, service them, etc etc etc. And in Europe, including Spain, you pay an absolutely obscene VAT tax on the purchase, so Spain is collecting considerable taxes on these purchases already. The VAT tax in Spain is 21%, and in Ireland it is 23%!!!! Yes, these taxes are paid directly by consumers, but even more taxes should be paid, give me a break? No wonder Europe is in such deep shit! And if even more taxes are paid by the corporation, that too comes directly out of consumers' pockets in the form of higher prices, decreased dividends and yields on investments etc. It is our governments that are in fact out of control!
post #37 of 55
Originally Posted by Banalltv
[post]

 

Your last post was deleted for a reason. Don't post it again.

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post #38 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

By what standard have you arrived at these conclusions of "unfairness" what is "deserved" and the "immorality" of what they are doing?

I also find it interesting that you call Apple immoral for what it is doing (legally minimizing taxes) but then say they are doing what we all do (legally minimize taxes.)

Because I pay between 30% and 40% tax on what I earn and then another 10% on virtually everything I buy so why should corporations be able to pay 2% and not even to the country in which they're doing business? That seems pretty unfair. It's not just corporations but wealthy individuals that find loopholes to get away with paying so little.

It tends to be publicly traded companies that do this because the owners can take the profits while absolving themselves of all legal responsibility in decision making. It is very difficult to prosecute individuals in these companies run by boards and consensus by many individuals, especially when they're so secretive, which explains why it is done so little. But if an individual makes even minor misdemeanours the State comes down on them like a tonne of bricks with heavy fines and even jail. Corporations are also far better equipped to defend themselves and companies as large as Apple can afford to "out defend" governments. The nature of the share market has led to a very lopsided interpretation of capitalism.

OK immoral might have been out of place but I don't take back that it is unfair. I think making the companies appear is pointless. They're not going to say anything except "we're doing what you let us".

If everyone could route their salary directly into a foreign bank in a tax haven overseas don't you think they would do it? Then what might happen to society if everyone is paying 2% tax to a foreign government? I can pretty much guarantee that not not only would it be very difficult but I'd probably end up in jail for money laundering and tax evasion and yet if you're a multinational and a publicly traded company on the share market that is OK and perfectly legal.
Edited by s.metcalf - 5/22/13 at 6:41pm
post #39 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

Because I pay between 30% and 40% tax on what I earn and then another 10% on virtually everything I buy so why should corporations be able to pay 2% and not even to the country in which they're doing business? That seems pretty unfair. It's not just corporations but wealthy individuals that find loopholes to get away with paying so little.

 

So this boils down to envy of their ability to pay a lower rate.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

It tends to be publicly traded companies that do this because the owners can take the profits while absolving themselves of all legal responsibility in decision making. It is very difficult to prosecute individuals in these companies run by boards and consensus by many individuals, especially when they're so secretive, which explains why it is done so little. But if an individual makes even minor misdemeanours the State comes down on them like a tonne of bricks with heavy fines and even jail. Corporations are also far better equipped to defend themselves and companies as large as Apple can afford to "out defend" governments.

 

So now you've jumped to criminal activity? What does that have to do with the subject at hand?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

The nature of the share market has led to a very lopsided interpretation of capitalism.

 

What does that mean?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

OK immoral might have been out of place but I don't take back that it is unfair.

 

Okay. The problem here is that everyone had a different, usually rather subjective, definition of what is "fair."

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

If everyone could route their salary directly into a foreign bank in a tax haven overseas don't you think they would do it?

 

I sure would.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

Then what might happen to society if everyone is paying 2% tax to a foreign government?

 

What do you think might happen? Since you seem to conflate the government and society, I suspect you have a rather dystopian view of what would happen if the government were getting much less money than it is now.

 

Personally I think society would be much better off with much smaller and less intrusive government that would have to exist with much lower funding. If the government was, say, scaled back to performing the basic functions of protection of its citizens life, liberty and property...I suspect the world would be a much better place.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #40 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofy1958 View Post

 

Every product that Apple sells here in the US and also anywhere esle in North and South America is sold by the American Apple company, and taxed here in the US.  NO money from products sold here in the US are moved over to Ireland to escape taxes.  In addition, Tim Cook stated that the Ireland company makes financial investments with the EU money, and the interest made on those investments is taxed and paid in the US.

 

 

 

That is the deviousness of offshoring though.  *Profits* made inside the US get taxed.

 

My gripe is with offshoring, not with Apple.  To hope to avoid 'fan hate' suppose a company named 'Goorapplesoft Electric' made stuff in China for $150, and sold it in the US for $650

 

Case 1:

 

Manufacture a good for $150 in China. 

Sell good to US consumer for $650 in US.

 

Profit = $500

Taxes due in US=  $500 x .035 = $17.5

Taxes due in Ireland = $0

Total taxes = $17.5

 

 

Case 2:

Manufacture a good for $150 in China.

Send good to Ireland for your subsidiary there to add their 'magic' to the good.

Have the Irish team 'sell' it to the US corp for $600

Sell good to US consumer for $650 in US.

 

Profit made in US:

$50 x .035 = $1.75

 

Profit made in Ireland:

$450 x .002 = $0.90

 

Total tax burden:  $2.65

 

If the CEO of the company paying $1.75 using case 2 said 'We pay every single dollar we owe on profits earned inside the USA" that would be an absolutely true statement.  The 'trick' is they only claim to have made $50 profit inside the US.  That Irish genius added most of the 'value' to the product and so most of the profits were made in Ireland, not the US.

 

The only downside to using that system is all the profits you made offshore can't be brought in to the actual country that provides all the benefits you receive without getting taxed.  

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