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Steve Jobs's family has been giving money away anonymously for more than 2 decades - Page 4

post #121 of 147
I spent an hour with Laurene the other day talking about education reform. She is smart..friendly...awesome. I think we can expect that they have been doing just what we'd hope, or will accomplish that soon enough.
post #122 of 147
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Originally Posted by WizSquid View Post

I spent an hour with Laurene the other day talking about education reform. She is smart..friendly...awesome. I think we can expect that they have been doing just what we'd hope, or will accomplish that soon enough.

Cool. So can you get me a date with her? :-)
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post #123 of 147
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I think it comes down to conflict. Whether this is man v nature, man v man, society v society we learn and grow from these and hope we're successful at it. I seem to recall the movie Lorenzo's Oil was based on a true story about parents that looked for a cure for their son's ALD.

Even here on this website I find that my discussions with the forum members have helped me tremendously to become a better debater. I certainly couldn't have done that if everyone just agreed with everything I said. I worked and struggled to see my opponent's point of view. To conceive of my opponent's counterarguments before he even knew he'd make them. Sometimes I'm successful and sometimes I fail, but I don't think I could have learned as well without it.


"Necessity is the mother of invention." ~ Ralph Macchio

OK, Mr. 'better debater' - you haven't answered my comments from earlier. You are arguing that public donations might serve the greater good by encouraging others to donate and that the greater good should take precedence over the individual's preference to donate privately for religious or other reasons.

You completely ignored my response:
Quote:
So in your view, societal needs take precedence over personal decision making?

OK. Let's start with the following:

1. Society benefits from less pollution and global warming. In the future, society will dictate what car you should buy - and it will be the smallest, most fuel-efficient car available.

2. Society benefits from educating its kids. So in the future, society will insist that you donate 20% of your income to education.

3. For that matter, society benefits when people are fed and clothed. So, in the future, society will allow you to keep just enough money to live on and you must give the rest to people who are struggling.

Sorry, but I don't buy the principle that society should dictate individual actions.

I could add:
4. Society is short of ditch diggers. They desperately need people to dig ditches for new societal projects. You want to be an artist, but society has determined that your art is of less value than the project they're working on, so you are given the ditch digger job.

So what is your justification for the public good taking precedence over private choice - and why does it only apply in charitable donations and not in other situations?
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post #124 of 147
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I'm actually against this anonymous donating. I understand their position on it, and respect that, but I think the greater good is for those with celebrity status in society to set an example. I believe the greater good would be to donate openly and encourage others follow suit either in money and/or time. Just by their actions celebrities can get others to react but when you're silent the totality of the effort will be muted. Just because you are donating openly or setting up charities it doesn't mean you are looking for accolades. The better move is to not care what others will ultimately think for against your motives and actions.

 

 

SolipsismX, I have to disagree, since it is their money and they can donate in whatever way best, since we should not pressure people to donate, it should be from heart and improving the less fortunate people in this world.

post #125 of 147
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Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Cool. So can you get me a date with her? :-)

that why you won't get a date..:-)

post #126 of 147
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I'm actually against this anonymous donating. I understand their position on it, and respect that, but I think the greater good is for those with celebrity status in society to set an example. I believe the greater good would be to donate openly and encourage others follow suit either in money and/or time. Just by their actions celebrities can get others to react but when you're silent the totality of the effort will be muted. Just because you are donating openly or setting up charities it doesn't mean you are looking for accolades. The better move is to not care what others will ultimately think for against your motives and actions.

You're presumption that his need for anonymity was based on what others may think of his motives is likely way off base.

I do all my giving anonymously, not because I care what others think, but because I don't like wasting time and resources handling bzillions of requests from everyone and their dog who found out I was giving to someone else.

This is my experience, and I think it's more likely closer to Jobs' reasoning.
post #127 of 147
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Originally Posted by bearheart View Post

...but because I don't like wasting time and resources handling bzillions of requests from everyone and their dog who found out I was giving to someone else.

Which goes along with what I'm saying that anonymous donating can be done for self-serving reasons as you just admitted as a reason why you donate anonymously. Again, nothing wrong with that at all and people do need to consider themselves first before they consider others in most cases (see any airplane diagram on putting on the oxygen mask) but you can't say that donating anonymously is in and of itself an altruistic measure, as you clearly stated for yourself.

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post #128 of 147
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Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post


SolipsismX, I have to disagree, since it is their money and they can donate in whatever way best, since we should not pressure people to donate, it should be from heart and improving the less fortunate people in this world.

In no way did I say they should put pressure on people to donate. I stated lead by example could be the greater good. I even used Ghandi as an example. Imagine if there was no Buddha or Jesus or Kermit T. Frog or any other figure in society whose example we follow. I think we, as a species, want roll models. We want people to look up to. I certainly didn't mention any guilt trip methods like any commercial with Sarah McLachlan music playing.

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post #129 of 147
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Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

you haven't answered my comments from earlier

You stated nothing reasonable that needs addressing. Ditch diggers? WTF?! You even conclude with a statement of society should dictate individual actions. First of all, I neither stated nor implied that. Secondly, laws are specifically designed to dictate individual actions by enacting punishments to prevent you from engaging in them.

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post #130 of 147
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

You stated nothing reasonable that needs addressing. Ditch diggers? WTF?! You even conclude with a statement of society should dictate individual actions. First of all, I neither stated nor implied that. Secondly, laws are specifically designed to dictate individual actions by enacting punishments to prevent you from engaging in them.

OK. So you're unable to answer.

The concept is simple. Your argument is that people should be public in their donations because it serves the public interest and the public interest is more important than their wants. And, yes, you did say that. Your exact words were "I understand their position on it, and respect that, but I think the greater good is for those with celebrity status in society to set an example." IOW, you believe that the 'greater good' outweighs private desires.

I listed a number of other things where the public interest might be more important than an individual's choices and asked you to explain why the public interest shouldn't take precedence over private wishes in those cases. (Or, to use your words, why doesn't the 'greater good' take precedence over private desires in all of these cases?).

Your response was to bury your head in the sand and pretend that the argument didn't exist.
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post #131 of 147
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Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

IOW, you believe that the 'greater good' outweighs private desires.

Yes, I do believe the greater good is greater than a lesser good.

PS: If you want answers to specific questions you need to ask relevant and rational questions. Not your spectrum of ignoratio elenchi to petitio principii.

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post #132 of 147
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Originally Posted by WizSquid View Post

I spent an hour with Laurene the other day talking about education reform. She is smart..friendly...awesome. I think we can expect that they have been doing just what we'd hope, or will accomplish that soon enough.

 

I hope you encouraged here AWAY from Teach For America, toward some of the education measures that actually exist to help kids, not adults.

 

It has been incredibly disappointing to see such an influential person fall victim to thinking that this organization is still good.  They started out many years ago with a real desire (I believe) to help kids in need, but they have grown into a monster that only serves as a stepping stone for young, well-off adults, on their way to influential jobs, many as educrats.  TFA is pushing, via big-money influence, into markets where there is no need for their services, and their so-called "best and brightest" are mostly much worse at teaching than their experienced peers, simply because of a lack of experience.  Unfortunately, even though many of these bright kids have potential, they leave the profession before they gain the skills required to be good teachers.  TFA is NOT the peace corps.

 

Laurene has done some great things over the years, mostly quietly (and I suspect many that I don't know about), but this is NOT one of them.  Truly depressing.

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post #133 of 147
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Yes, I do believe the greater good is greater than a lesser good.

PS: If you want answers to specific questions you need to ask relevant and rational questions. Not your spectrum of ignoratio elenchi to petitio principii.

So you can't answer the questions. It would be simpler if you simply said so.
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post #134 of 147
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Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

So you can't answer the questions. It would be simpler if you simply said so.

I made it very clear I will answer reasonable questions.

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post #135 of 147
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Originally Posted by bearheart View Post

...but because I don't like wasting time and resources handling bzillions of requests from everyone and their dog who found out I was giving to someone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Which goes along with what I'm saying that anonymous donating can be done for self-serving reasons as you just admitted as a reason why you donate anonymously. Again, nothing wrong with that at all and people do need to consider themselves first before they consider others in most cases (see any airplane diagram on putting on the oxygen mask) but you can't say that donating anonymously is in and of itself an altruistic measure, as you clearly stated for yourself.

I don't understand how not wanting to be hounded for more donations from elsewhere is in itself makes it not an altruistic measure. It looks like the anonymous part of that is a means to avoid getting hassled, which isn't a real gain. What is the reward for the anonymous donation? With public giving, you do get a reward, people know that you gave and that has a chance in altering what people think of you.
Edited by JeffDM - 5/25/13 at 12:37pm
post #136 of 147
.
Edited by SolipsismX - 5/25/13 at 1:04pm

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post #137 of 147
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Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


I don't understand how not wanting to be hounded for more donations from elsewhere is in itself makes it not an altruistic measure. It looks like the anonymous part of that is a means to avoid getting hassled, which isn't a real gain. What is the reward for the anonymous donation? With public giving, you do get a reward, people know that you gave and that has a chance in altering what people think of you.

1) How can something be selfless if you're doing it for yourself?

2) Do you think there is no reward by not giving publicly? I find it odd, which is what precipitated my initial comment, that if it's publicly known that it means you are giving for this "reward" you mention. Does this mean the charity noted in this article is now tainted because it's known? I don't think so.
Edited by SolipsismX - 5/25/13 at 1:05pm

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post #138 of 147
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) How can something be selfless if you're doing it for yourself?

That doesn't compute. How is giving money away with no expectation of something in exchange and nobody knowing about it "doing it for yourself"? Are you suggesting that trying to avoid being pestered is selfish?

It looks like you're suggesting that anonymous giving is selfish, possibly more selfish than public giving. I don't know. Your arguments don't make any sense to me, I see a possible disconnect going on here.

I also think you are missing a comparison. You compared it against giving publicly, but then without any comparison against giving not at all.

Quote:
2) Do you think there is no reward by not giving publicly?

I'm not seeing where the reward is. Do you think there is a reward for giving money away without getting something in return?

Quote:
Does this mean the charity noted in this article is now tainted because it's known? I don't think so.

That's not what I mean. I really don't understand why it was made known now.
Edited by JeffDM - 5/25/13 at 2:20pm
post #139 of 147
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Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

That doesn't compute. How is giving money away with no expectation of something in return and nobody knowing about it "doing it for yourself"? You're suggesting that anonymous giving is selfish, more selfish than public giving, it seems. Your arguments don't make any sense to me, I see a disconnect going on here.

1) I'm not suggesting anything. I'm outright stating doing something anonymously does not mean the motives in and of themselves are selfless just as I'm stating outright that doing something with public knowledge does not mean the motives are in and of themselves are selfish.

2) What is being discussed is not the giving to charity, but the motives behind it being known v. unknown. As shown in this thread by a surprising number, they have defending that anonymous giving is more noble which hey backed up with a selfish, but not unreasonable, motive for keeping it secret. How can you read "...I don't like wasting time..." as being without consideration for one's self?
Quote:
I also think you are missing a comparison. You compared it against giving publicly, but then without any comparison against giving not at all.
I'm not seeing where the reward is. Do you think there is a reward for giving money away without getting something in return?

Do you not feel good when you give? I do. I consider that a reward. I also do a lot of things in life not because of how I'll feel about from doing it but because I now how I'll feel if I don't do it. Sparing myself guilt from a potential what if situation is doing it for my satisfaction, not yours or anyone else.

If it makes you happy to make other people happy, to me, that says a lot about your character but it's still you getting something out of doing for others.
Quote:
That's not what I mean. I really don't understand why it was made known.

That question needs to be asked since it was mentioned that it's always better to have no one ever know you donated then for people to know. This of course is quite imprecise since it's very likely at least one other person knows. In the case of the wealthy it would likely be their accountant, at the very least. Do people leak info so they can get credit? Of course they do! Do people donate to reduce taxes. Sure. Do people donate to hospitals so help win favour with the staff for procedures or care they want as well as using it for a tax right off? Absolutely! None of this takes away from it still being charity and helping others but it's not done in a vacuum. There are motives for it even if all the motives are good and reasonable.

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post #140 of 147
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I made it very clear I will answer reasonable questions.

Where you apparently define 'reasonable' as 'any question I can answer that doesn't require thought or which doesn't challenge my arbitrary position.'
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post #141 of 147
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Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Where you apparently define 'reasonable' as 'any question I can answer that doesn't require thought or which doesn't challenge my arbitrary position.'

So you still contend that all anonymity is noble and all that results in publicity is self-seeking?

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post #142 of 147
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

So you still contend that all anonymity is noble and all that results in publicity is self-seeking?

I never said any such thing.

I said that someone donating money should be able to decide whether it's anonymous or not - which is the way things are now.

You claim that the greater good should overrule an individual's preference.

Since you're the one suggesting a change, you have the burden of proof. I pointed out the logical flaws in your argument and you simply buried your head in the sand and tried to change the subject.
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post #143 of 147
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) I'm not suggesting anything.

Not true. You specifically suggested that the 'greater good' should overrule an individual's preference.
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post #144 of 147
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I'm actually against this anonymous donating. I understand their position on it, and respect that, but I think the greater good is for those with celebrity status in society to set an example. I believe the greater good would be to donate openly and encourage others follow suit either in money and/or time. Just by their actions celebrities can get others to react but when you're silent the totality of the effort will be muted. Just because you are donating openly or setting up charities it doesn't mean you are looking for accolades. The better move is to not care what others will ultimately think for against your motives and actions.


There are many wealthy, famour people donating and otherwise giving openly. If what Gates, Buffett, Kevin Durant, Bono, Turner, Clooney and Jolie do doesn't inspire someone. Having more open donors will not sway them.

 

Come to think of it, I don't understand what you are against. Surely you're ok with some people giving money anonymously?


Edited by ankleskater - 5/26/13 at 8:29pm
post #145 of 147

The point in giving is not to draw attention to the fact that you gave something but to help someone or some cause in need. If you are giving only to draw attention to yourself, you are doing it for the wrong reasons.

post #146 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I'm actually against this anonymous donating. I understand their position on it, and respect that, but I think the greater good is for those with celebrity status in society to set an example. I believe the greater good would be to donate openly and encourage others follow suit either in money and/or time. Just by their actions celebrities can get others to react but when you're silent the totality of the effort will be muted. Just because you are donating openly or setting up charities it doesn't mean you are looking for accolades. The better move is to not care what others will ultimately think for against your motives and actions.

I know I am late to this discussion, however, why in hell do you need to know what someone does with their money, this is the problem with the country, everything thinks it is their business to know what other people are doing.

 

It is not the responsibilities of celeb or anyone else to do thing to motivate others to do things, Either people help because they want to or they do not. 

 

I always wonder why Steve never gave back, I originally thought he might do something later in life like may of his contemporaries did, such as set up a foundation which used the money they had to keep give for decade after their gone. However, It was nice to hear he was doing it quietly behind the scenes. It also sounds like the Job's we not using for tax purposes like most Celeb do.

post #147 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


So you still contend that all anonymity is noble and all that results in publicity is self-seeking?

I'm surprised no one mentioned anything about Ted Turner. He pledged billions along with a call-out to other "rich" CEOs and celebrities to donate to their preferred charities and causes before they die. I don't think he did that for self publicity, I think he was trying to light a fire under the butts of those who continue to think "whoever dies with the most toys wins" and that they, or their heirs, won't miss a billion when they're dead and buried. When we're talking BILLIONS of dollars, enough can be enough to live..... *quite comfortably*........ and most would not miss a billion from their accounts.....holding 10's of billions of dollars.

 

Just my 2 cents...

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