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Former US Senator pens defense of Apple's international tax strategy

post #1 of 38
Thread Starter 
Former U.S. Sen. John E. Sununu authored a newspaper column on Monday blaming the United States Congress, and not Apple, for policies that allow corporations to avoid American taxes.

Sununu, a one-term Republican Senator from New Hampshire, is now a columnist for the Boston Globe. In a piece published on Memorial Day, the former politician blasted members of the U.S. Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations for singling out Apple on taxes when the company is following the laws as written.

Sununu
John Sununu served as Representative and Senator for New Hampshire from 1997 to 2009.


Apple Chief Executive Tim Cook was called before the subcommittee to explain why Apple has $100 billion in cash overseas. Most of that money is kept through subsidiaries in Ireland, which allows Apple to avoid billions of dollars in repatriation taxes if those funds were to be brought back to the U.S.

The current tax rate for bringing overseas cash back to U.S. shores is 35 percent, one of the highest tax rates of its kind in the world. Cook argued before the subcommittee that a dramatic revision of the U.S. tax code is necessary to address that issue.

"Making the case for his company's decisions, Cook came off far better than the average witness on Capitol Hill," Sununu wrote in his column. "Perhaps it's easier to be blunt when you employ 60,000 workers in the United States, but lines like 'we pay all the taxes we owe ??every single dollar' set the tone from the start.

"In public and private sector alike, a defensive posture makes people think you have something to hide. Cook's confidence contrasted dramatically with IRS managers pleading the Fifth before Congress the very next day."

In Sununu's eyes, the blame for companies like Apple sheltering their funds overseas lies on Congress, which originally wrote the tax laws and has failed to update them to resolve these concerns. Other major American companies, including Google and Yahoo, also avoid paying U.S. taxes with subsidiaries in Ireland ??and some go even farther than Apple with holdings on Caribbean islands or bank accounts in the Cayman Islands.

Sununu joins U.S. Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ken.), who serves on the Senate committee that questioned Apple Chief Executive Tim Cook on his company's tax practices. During the hearing, Paul criticized his colleagues for "bullying, badgering and berating" a great American success story when Apple has broken no laws.

"We should have brought in here today a giant mirror, so that we can look at the reflection of Congress, because this problem is created by the awful tax code," Paul said.
post #2 of 38
Couldn't agree more with these guys. The tax code seems to be written in a way to make things flexible. It is the corporation's duty to "maximize shareholder wealth" so not using any legal means to reduce tax burden is not due diligence. If congress doesn't want companies doing this, then they need to simplify the tax code (as Tim Cook is proposing). They go through all these hoops to appease their lobbyists and then get upset when other companies (probably the ones not spending money on lobbyist) use it to their advantage. This is government corruption plain and simple. Pay your corporate "dues" to government officials, or we will put you on the stand like commies. Absolutely ridiculous.
post #3 of 38

Senator:   The senate and the incompetent laws we produced while I was a part of it are the problem.

 

 

This is just all looking more and more like a pretense to give these companies a 'tax holiday' or big break to get offshore money back into the US.  It sounds great if you're willing to overlook that it is money that they didn't pay taxes on in the US in the first place.  If they are are supremely incompetent they will go along and then be surprised at the wave of increased offshoring that occurs.  If you can pay low taxes on profits artificially made overseas and then bring that money into the US with little or no penalty- why would anyone be dumb enough to report profits inside the US?

 

If they are going to do that, they should just take it to its logical conclusion and be done with it.  Set the corporate tax rate in the US to 0.  Corporations already pay under 7% of what our government spends in a year.  Just set it to 0, keep the money made in the US in the US, and we can stop pretending they are contributing their 'fair share'

post #4 of 38

The morons and un-American politicians that are blaming Apple for not paying their "fair share" are the ones that are responsible for the ridiculous tax laws to begin with. The tax laws are a mess because of them and they themselves are to blame. Do these people not take any responsibility for their own actions? Don't answer that, because I already know the answer.

 

How dare they call in Apple to be questioned for merely following the law.  Do these hypocritical thugs who criticize Apple pay more than they should when filing their own taxes? No? Well, then they should STFU.

 

And this doesn't just apply to Apple, but it applies to any company or person that follows the current tax laws. As long as it's legal, then there is nothing to talk about really. Who are these communists and fascists to decide what somebody else's "fair share" is? If we're deciding what's fair, then we should open up a few gulags in Alaska or someplace else that's cold, and send these politicians there, because that sounds fair to me.

 

With the way that the incompetent baboons in the government spends our money, I'd say that the less money that you give the Feds, the more patriotic you are and the less the govt can waste, spend and steal.

post #5 of 38
Agree. I am a republican and I am so tired of John McCain's mouth on this subject. At least the other Republican and Democratic senators are outspoken over how their colleagues are taking Apple for obeying all the laws. Especially when all the government wants is more money to squander away on Electric vehicle companies and dummy healthcare. At least Apple is a company that is over $1 billion to the good unlike the government who spends millions everyday that they don't have. In the words of ESPN's Chris Carter..."C'mon man!!"
post #6 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"Making the case for his company's decisions, Cook came off far better than the average witness on Capitol Hill," Sununu wrote in his column. "Perhaps it's easier to be blunt when you employ 60,000 workers in the United States, but lines like 'we pay all the taxes we owe ??every single dollar' set the tone from the start.

"In public and private sector alike, a defensive posture makes people think you have something to hide. Cook's confidence contrasted dramatically with IRS managers pleading the Fifth before Congress the very next day.".

I know there are a number of Cook critics around, but the more I see of him, the more impressive he is.

He's not Jobs - nor should he be. The situations were different. Jobs was a visionary and had to save a struggling company - and put it on the path to greatness. Cook inherited a great company and has to manage that. And even if their situations were the same, there's nothing wrong with different personality types running a company. Expecting two CEOs to have the same style is silly. It's larger than any other public company in the world - and needs to be managed like a large company, not an entrepreneurship.

Cook has done a great job of managing a large, complex, profitable company and it's good to see him getting some of the recognition he deserves.
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post #7 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by swaylon View Post

Agree. I am a republican and I am so tired of John McCain's mouth on this subject.

The dude is a RINO.

post #8 of 38
Hey "Apple Insider Staff":

Exactly WHAT Taxes are Apple "Avoiding"? There is NO TAX on transactions happening overseas between overseas companies for goods produced overseas.

IF Apple is "Avoiding" this nonexistent tax then every company in the world outside the US is "avoiding" these taxes.

The US doesn't have jurisdiction over the world and cannot tax the whole world.

Jesus but this claim is stupid. (or a reflection of political ideology.)
post #9 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


I know there are a number of Cook critics around, but the more I see of him, the more impressive he is.

He's not Jobs - nor should he be. The situations were different. Jobs was a visionary and had to save a struggling company - and put it on the path to greatness. Cook inherited a great company and has to manage that. And even if their situations were the same, there's nothing wrong with different personality types running a company. Expecting two CEOs to have the same style is silly. It's larger than any other public company in the world - and needs to be managed like a large company, not an entrepreneurship.

Cook has done a great job of managing a large, complex, profitable company and it's good to see him getting some of the recognition he deserves.

 

This was exactly what I was thinking when I was watching the replay on C-SPAN. Steve Jobs could never have pulled off that hearing without slamming back at those senile and decrepit Senators. Tim Cook never fired back, was gracious and set the tone right from the beginning. He made a few friends in Congress that day, and no new enemies. An amazing feat rarely duplicated in these show hearings.

 

Tim Cook was built to run the new Apple, now a massive company. Let's see if the dream team continues to deliver amazing products. 

post #10 of 38

I can't seem to edit my earlier comment, but this is the line I'm talking about from the article:

"for policies that allow corporations to avoid American taxes."

 

By this line of "reasoning", a guy in Zimbabwe who makes fine suits and sells them to fashionable men in Mozambique is somehow "avoiding" US Taxes.   It's an asinine position. 

 

It doesn't matter to them that Apple is paying more taxes than any other corporation, or more taxes than a thousand other corporations combined.  They don't care.

 

They see that Apple is able to keep money and make profits and thus grow rich-- and they can't stand that.  

 

To them, anybody who has a positive net worth is "avoiding taxes" because they want us all to be slaves.

 

Not that they will admit it, because when put in those words it's obvious just exactly how evil they are.

post #11 of 38

If the United States can tax income you earn in Japan and kept in Japan, then states should be able to tax income you make in other states.  Luckily, not.

post #12 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by superdx View Post
" Steve Jobs could never have pulled off that hearing without slamming back at those senile and decrepit Senators. "

 

Remember in Steve Jobs' last public appearance before some pissant board in Cupertino where he had gone to beg permission to build their corporate campus, and one of the alderman or whatever tried to extort more from him, and he said "Well, we like being in Cupertino, but we can move" or something along those lines.

 

Jobs made it clear how asinine she was being without slamming her.... I think Jobs was capable of that, publicly.   It's only privately that he wouldn't tolerate bozos. 

post #13 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi View Post

 

Remember in Steve Jobs' last public appearance before some pissant board in Cupertino where he had gone to beg permission to build their corporate campus, and one of the alderman or whatever tried to extort more from him, and he said "Well, we like being in Cupertino, but we can move" or something along those lines.

 

Jobs made it clear how asinine she was being without slamming her.... I think Jobs was capable of that, publicly.   It's only privately that he wouldn't tolerate bozos. 

 

 

Indeed!

The new Apple CEO seems too polite. No wonder crooks are after him.

post #14 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by swaylon View Post

Agree. I am a republican .... all the government wants is more money to squander away on Electric vehicle companies and dummy healthcare. 

OK, how much did the government "squander away on electric vehicle" companies? Compared to what? What proportion of whose budget was that? What about all the boondoggle spending on Defense (e.g., the F-35)?

 

And what is "dummy" healthcare? I assume you mean Obamacare? Do you have data on its implementation, as well as impact on costs and health outcomes that I might have missed?

 

Can we please stop with these illiterate political talking points (from the left or the right).

post #15 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskatt2 View Post

Mitt Romney pays even less in taxes than Apple. He has Cayman Island bank accounts. He has most of his income held overseas.

Mitt Romney pays only 10% of his income in taxes. This is less than the average middle-class blue-collar worker.

Ah, talking points from the Left......

post #16 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider 
Apple Chief Executive Tim Cook was called before the subcommittee to explain why Apple has $100 billion in cash overseas. Most of that money is kept through subsidiaries in Ireland, which allows Apple to avoid billions of dollars in repatriation taxes if those funds were to be brought back to the U.S.

The current tax rate for bringing overseas cash back to U.S. shores is 35 percent

The even funnier part is that according to the subcommittee, the cash is on US shores already. It's held in US financial institutions. It's just owned by an overseas subsidiary. The act of 'bringing cash home' would just involve switching the bank accounts in exactly the same place.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/21/business/apple-avoided-billions-in-taxes-congressional-panel-says.html?pagewanted=2

"Apple Operations International, which is incorporated in Ireland — where Apple had negotiated a special corporate tax rate of 2 percent or less in recent years — but keeps its bank accounts and records in the United States and holds board meetings in California."

The mentions of cash always give the impression of a large cash pile somewhere that would take an effort to move but it's just numbers on a computer that can move anywhere at the click of a button.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkichline View Post

If congress doesn't want companies doing this, then they need to simplify the tax code (as Tim Cook is proposing).

It's companies that complicate the tax code in the first place by lobbying for the changes:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ee6c1b64-c1f2-11e2-ab66-00144feab7de.html

The complaint about complexity is given in defence of tax avoidance, not while lobbying to have it made more complex to benefit their specific needs. This is not necessarily Apple's doing but other large companies. Apple won't be going against government with the tax code changes but other large companies that put the complexity in there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi 
Exactly WHAT Taxes are Apple "Avoiding"? There is NO TAX on transactions happening overseas between overseas companies for goods produced overseas.

Apple themselves provided estimates in the subcommittee report about how much tax they'd avoided. Although the Irish subsidiaries are incorporated in Ireland, they are functionally managed in the US. The subs have no tax jurisdiction at all. The subcommittee was trying to clarify with Apple if the subsidiaries were managed in the US. They may find some legal argument or make an amendment to say that the legal tax jurisdiction of the subs is in the US in which case they are or will be liable for US taxation.
post #17 of 38
I am a democrat who wants a government to collect all the taxes owed. Apple does not owe taxes on money earned and spent overseas. To say otherwise is to expose yourself as an incompetent in tax law. If there was some effort to make overseas income out of American earnings then yes Apple would be paying less than their fair share. If you don't like the rules then change them, but don't be surprisd when all your trading partners jump ship because you attempted to take money that does not belong to you.

A flat 15% on repatriated capital and all other corporate income taxes would make a lot more sense. getting rid of all the loop holes would make those who are avoiding taxes through lobbying pay their share. The cost of bringing capital back would be cheaper than borrowing money at 3% for 6 years. Federal deficits would shrink further and capital investment in America would increase. The economy would expand and all Americans would benefit.
post #18 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi View Post

Exactly WHAT Taxes are Apple "Avoiding"? There is NO TAX on transactions happening overseas between overseas companies for goods produced overseas.

I don't get the 'get the money back into the US' either. It's an American company, probably spending all their R&D in the US and selling their products oversees. But they surely have costs oversees, B&M Stores, transport, manufacturing, everything; money spend oversees.

If they acquire money in those countries, wouldn't it be better to pay the bills with money acquired oversees? I am totally failing to see the reason to bring in all the money from oversees...for what exactly? They have money in the US as well, more than enough to pay the bills as their US stash is growing as well.
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post #19 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post

Senator:   The senate and the incompetent laws we produced while I was a part of it are the problem.

 

 

This is just all looking more and more like a pretense to give these companies a 'tax holiday' or big break to get offshore money back into the US.  It sounds great if you're willing to overlook that it is money that they didn't pay taxes on in the US in the first place. 

 

You post almost makes sense until you realize "back into the US" is simply wrong because it implies the money has been to the US when this money has never been in the US. That is the issue many fail to realize. All this money has already been taxed once (sometimes just a small amount but much larger if include the billion in paid VAT) in the jurisdiction it was earned.

post #20 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

It's companies that complicate the tax code in the first place by lobbying for the changes:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ee6c1b64-c1f2-11e2-ab66-00144feab7de.html
 

 

That is a warped view. Are you saying the companies go in and do the Yea/Nay votes in congress? This is 100% an legislative issue with 100% of the blame being the Congress of the US.

post #21 of 38
How about this. Every country where you do business can charge you taxes on money made in every other country where you do business. So if you do business in 130 or so countries as Apple does, you can get taxed 130 times. Let's say each country has a corporate tax rate of 35%, like the United States, Apple can pay $45.50 in taxes for every dollar they earn.
post #22 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post

That is a warped view. Are you saying the companies go in and do the Yea/Nay votes in congress? This is 100% an legislative issue with 100% of the blame being the Congress of the US.

The companies have quite a strong influence over at least one side, which has an anti-tax agenda and that side has the majority, which ironically then condemns any attempts at rectifying it:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/23/us-usa-fiscal-chambliss-idUSBRE8AM0U320121123

This obviously works to their benefit because avoiding taxes increases deficits and then we hear about how government spends too much. It all works together:

- anti-tax proponents in collusion with lobbyists write the tax laws that allow the businesses to avoid tax
- businesses avoid paying tax and so the governments have a deficit
- anti-tax proponents point to the deficits as a political point of why government is too large in order to force decreasing public services
- anti-tax proponents condemn any effort to fix the situation (unless it means things like single-digit taxation) because it's a problem they created and don't want fixed

To say Apple is in no way responsible for the tax avoidance they pulled off is a bit of a stretch. They certainly wouldn't have managed it without the tax laws in various countries allowing it but the intent of the law is clear. If someone got away with a crime on a technicality such as:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1117479/posts

hopefully you wouldn't say 'well done for using the law against its intent to your best advantage'. The law is to blame for allowing it to happen but so are the people acting against the intent of the law. Laws are just written to control human behaviour. When you declare your profits openly and your tax rates to be well below the rates of any country in which you sell products, that is blatantly acting against the intent of the law, which is to create fair tax rates for everyone.

Everybody hates paying taxes, everybody likes getting free services but the wealthiest who don't need the free services can't just decide to stop paying for them because they've been fortunate enough to make a lot of profit from the people who do. It would be like deciding not to pay for car insurance because you happen to have a good record of not being involved in accidents, that's not how it works.
post #23 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

hopefully you wouldn't say 'well done for using the law against its intent to your best advantage'. The law is to blame for allowing it to happen but so are the people acting against the intent of the law. Laws are just written to control human behaviour. When you declare your profits openly and your tax rates to be well below the rates of any country in which you sell products, that is blatantly acting against the intent of the law, which is to create fair tax rates for everyone.
 

As long as their tax avoidance is legal, then I would absolutely say "well done".  Publicly held companies answer to their shareholders and their primary responsibility to their shareholders is to maximize value.  Paying taxes that you could have legally avoided is not maximizing value and, in fact, is fiscally irresponsible.

post #24 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Everybody hates paying taxes, everybody likes getting free services but the wealthiest who don't need the free services can't just decide to stop paying for them because they've been fortunate enough to make a lot of profit from the people who do. It would be like deciding not to pay for car insurance because you happen to have a good record of not being involved in accidents, that's not how it works.

What?????  What point are you trying to make with that first sentence?  As far as the second sentence is concerned, people with great driving records already pay significantly less than those with poor driving records -- not free, but significantly less. And this IS how that works.  In your scenario, are you saying they wouldn't pay for insurance at all, but would still have coverage?  I just don't see how this applies to Apple's tax responsibilities.

post #25 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

The morons and un-American politicians that are blaming Apple for not paying their "fair share" are the ones that are responsible for the ridiculous tax laws to begin with. The tax laws are a mess because of them and they themselves are to blame. Do these people not take any responsibility for their own actions? Don't answer that, because I already know the answer.

How dare they call in Apple to be questioned for merely following the law.  Do these hypocritical thugs who criticize Apple pay more than they should when filing their own taxes? No? Well, then they should STFU.

And this doesn't just apply to Apple, but it applies to any company or person that follows the current tax laws. As long as it's legal, then there is nothing to talk about really. Who are these communists and fascists to decide what somebody else's "fair share" is? If we're deciding what's fair, then we should open up a few gulags in Alaska or someplace else that's cold, and send these politicians there, because that sounds fair to me.

With the way that the incompetent baboons in the government spends our money, I'd say that the less money that you give the Feds, the more patriotic you are and the less the govt can waste, spend and steal.

Agree 100%. Once politics became viewed as a career instead of a civic duty it all went south. Now politicians are in the business of staying in office and finger pointing.
Edited by iSteelers - 5/27/13 at 4:00pm
post #26 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

The dude is a RINO.

How true, though these days a great many of them are. I think the word conservative is foreign to many of these party members.
post #27 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSteelers View Post


Agree 100%. Once politics became viewed as a career instead of a civic duty it all went south. Now politicians are in the business of staying in office and finger pointing.

 

To stay in office requires money, lots of it and a good relationship with media moguls.

 

One only has to look at where that money or positive media portrayal comes from and the favours that are given in return become glaringly obvious.

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post #28 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


The companies have quite a strong influence over at least one side, which has an anti-tax agenda and that side has the majority, which ironically then condemns any attempts at rectifying it:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/23/us-usa-fiscal-chambliss-idUSBRE8AM0U320121123

This obviously works to their benefit because avoiding taxes increases deficits and then we hear about how government spends too much. It all works together:

- anti-tax proponents in collusion with lobbyists write the tax laws that allow the businesses to avoid tax
- businesses avoid paying tax and so the governments have a deficit
- anti-tax proponents point to the deficits as a political point of why government is too large in order to force decreasing public services
- anti-tax proponents condemn any effort to fix the situation (unless it means things like single-digit taxation) because it's a problem they created and don't want fixed

To say Apple is in no way responsible for the tax avoidance they pulled off is a bit of a stretch. They certainly wouldn't have managed it without the tax laws in various countries allowing it but the intent of the law is clear. If someone got away with a crime on a technicality such as:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1117479/posts

hopefully you wouldn't say 'well done for using the law against its intent to your best advantage'. The law is to blame for allowing it to happen but so are the people acting against the intent of the law. Laws are just written to control human behaviour. When you declare your profits openly and your tax rates to be well below the rates of any country in which you sell products, that is blatantly acting against the intent of the law, which is to create fair tax rates for everyone.

Everybody hates paying taxes, everybody likes getting free services but the wealthiest who don't need the free services can't just decide to stop paying for them because they've been fortunate enough to make a lot of profit from the people who do. It would be like deciding not to pay for car insurance because you happen to have a good record of not being involved in accidents, that's not how it works.

if your 'intent' was to build a reasonable argument, you failed miserably. Courts can and should only enforce the tax laws just like any other law, as they are written, pure and simple. Intent can be debated forever with no definitive result. That is why laws are often revised to put in new language to make the laws enforcement, as intended, easier.

 

Are the tax laws fair? Was the language written as to clearly define the laws? Maybe or maybe not depending on the viewpoint taken but until they change the wording the laws are what they are and must be enforced as written regardless of intention.

 

When you file your taxes every year don't you just take every deduction you can, or do you analyze what the intention was for each deduction beforehand to make sure you are in keeping with the spirit of the law?

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post #29 of 38
@frood
"profits artificially made overseas"? You do know that Apple actually sells products overseas. You should educate yourself a bit. The issue at hand is that an enormous amount of the profits they make overseas (nothing artificial about it, no additives, no financial shenanigans) has to stay overseas, because the US Treasury wants to do what governments always want to do with someone else's money: get as much of it as they can, then spend the shit out of it.
post #30 of 38

@swalon:

Remember that McCain was one of two ringleaders there. The other was Democrat Levin. He was just as full of shit as McCain was, but most reporters thought it looked better to just quote one of them (for whatever reason). And note that both Rand Paul and John Sununu are Republicans. Feel better now?

post #31 of 38

Is the Reply button tripping you up? It's pretty dumb. You want to hit Quote (or Multi, for more than one post at once) to quote others' posts. 

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post #32 of 38

Apple internal efforts invented this scam and it's finally coming to bite them in the butt. There isn't a single GOP rep who will undue these frauds.
 

post #33 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post

That is a warped view. Are you saying the companies go in and do the Yea/Nay votes in congress? This is 100% an legislative issue with 100% of the blame being the Congress of the US.

Not a warped view at all. In the US the Contitutuon clearly states that there are four branches of government with a balance of powers; Legislative, Executive, Judicial and Corporations (read lobbiests). The first three have the power to blame the fourth for all ills. We the People are required to protect (reellect) our 1-3 guys back into office who are then permitted to blame the other 252.

Clear now?
post #34 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Apple internal efforts invented this scam and it's finally coming to bite them in the butt. There isn't a single GOP rep who will undue these frauds.

 

Scam? If it was a scam, Congress would make it law and exempt themselves... Citation needed? Fed, Social Security, Medicare, Income tax, 401K, IRA, et al.

Bite them how? Citation needed. As I see it, the Senate will back off cause Cook handed them their collective ass.

One Party is as complicit as the next or next or next and next... (see Federalist, Whig, Democratic Republicans, et al)
Edited by ChristophB - 5/27/13 at 7:18pm
post #35 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSteelers View Post

Agree 100%. Once politics became viewed as a career instead of a civic duty it all went south. Now politicians are in the business of staying in office and finger pointing.

1793
post #36 of 38
Apple is taxed on product sales around the world. Apple pays employment taxes around the world. If Apple centrally holds it's European profits in a European country, what's wrong with that? Apple was born in the US, but it manages international subsidiaries because it must by law and is taxed in each country by those laws.

The question is, why should any company operating in this manner be forced to send money to the US? And obviously no one in their right mind would do so when simply moving that money will result in losing 35% of it!

So this is just the Senate trying to suck more money out of a company who has paid their dues and has already had a positive impact on the American economy.

And I agree with the comments applauding Tim Cook's kindness and professionalism. I would have shared some choice words for Senator McCain, who's integrity and intelligence flew out the window by opening his mouth.
post #37 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

OK, how much did the government "squander away on electric vehicle" companies? Compared to what? What proportion of whose budget was that? What about all the boondoggle spending on Defense (e.g., the F-35)?

And what is "dummy" healthcare? I assume you mean Obamacare? Do you have data on its implementation, as well as impact on costs and health outcomes that I might have missed?

Can we please stop with these illiterate political talking points (from the left or the right).

Well said. It is so nauseating how many people view everything through an extremist lens filter and color everything to fit their own view of the world. Actually I give them too much credit , I suspect they 'auto filter' everything according talking points they were given by what ever extremist commentator / new organization they follow. I seriously doubt there is much 'thinking' involved before they offer their knee jerk and predictable responses to anything vaguely political.
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
Google Motto "You're not the customer. You're the product."
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From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
Google Motto "You're not the customer. You're the product."
Reply
post #38 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpr1 View Post

Publicly held companies answer to their shareholders and their primary responsibility to their shareholders is to maximize value.  Paying taxes that you could have legally avoided is not maximizing value and, in fact, is fiscally irresponsible.

By that measure, every company paying the expected rate is fiscally irresponsible, which means you'd criticise every company that doesn't follow the lowest common denominator. So you'd be criticising Apple for not having a Cayman Islands bank account? After all, they could save even more tax that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpr1 
What point are you trying to make with that first sentence?

I'm not sure how else to write it to be clearer. Many wealthy people deride entitlements until they need them. A classic is multi-millionaire Mr Incredible here:



They were talking about avoiding paying income tax because they didn't like how it was being spent despite taking advantage of it at some point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpr1 
In your scenario, are you saying they wouldn't pay for insurance at all, but would still have coverage?

I'm saying that they don't get to decide how little to pay and expect the same entitlements granted by the payments e.g I'm a good driver so I'll pay $1 but if I have an accident, I expect the same service as everyone else.

At this point, people are quick to point out how much Apple pays in the US but that's less than what they owe and international tax is well below what they are expected to pay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic 
When you file your taxes every year don't you just take every deduction you can, or do you analyze what the intention was for each deduction beforehand to make sure you are in keeping with the spirit of the law?

Why do people keep bringing up deductions? This isn't what Apple is doing at all. If you have a legitimate deduction (expense) in your business then of course that's ok and I don't think anyone would have an issue with Apple making legitimate deductions because that complies with the intent of the law. What Apple is doing contradicts the intent of the law in order to save billions, which Apple fully acknowledges:



They even provided the diagrams of their corporate structure showing what they were doing. Apple's stance is 'we know we're up to no good and here are some pictures and numbers to prove it but you're letting us get away with it so it's really your fault'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristophB 
As I see it, the Senate will back off cause Cook handed them their collective ass.

I reckon they got the information they needed to issue some changes. It probably won't be all that surprising to see who votes against any reform though.
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AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Former US Senator pens defense of Apple's international tax strategy