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Apple to release slimmer Retina MacBook Pro with upgraded camera, insider reveals - Page 5

post #161 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


2) The technologies are used interchangeably. 

I think the conflict lies in your use of the word "interchangeable".   At a high-level, both technologies can be used to access a network.  No doubt.  However, to those who run networks for a living, wireless and wired connections are not "interchangeable".  One requires a wire to the user's endpoint, one does not.  You cannot use one in place of the other without regards to the rest of the network connectivity which you are trying to use.  To use the car and truck analogy, we're really talking about high-speed trains versus single-engine airplanes.  Both can be used for transportation, but the path they follow from point a to point b cannot be followed by the other.

post #162 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I don't think anyone is "hating on" those that want an optical drive. The market is shifting away from it though.

I don't know about that some of the attitudes are down right hostile.

There is no doubt that some of the market is shifting away from optical drives but then again the market is shifting away from laptops. That doesn't mean the market for laptops with Ethernet ports, or optical drives or a high capacity for secondary store has died. Likewise for the less popular features of the MBPs.

The other issue here is that Apple has gain greatly from the so called post PC era. However I think that concept is a mistake. I really don't see the need for PC evaporating completely and as such it will bounce back eventually as people better understand what iOS devices can do for them and old PC and Mac hardware needs to be replaced. As it is right now the mobile devices supplement PCs for many users and have allowed them to put off upgrades. That won't last forever though. This is one reason that I want to see Apple keep its desktop and even its laptops bleeding edge, eventually there will be a bounce back and Apple could grab a significant market share with such hardware. Sure the current market is weak but Apples laptops have demonstrated staying power to a greater extent than run of the mill PC hardware. Part of that is due to excellent hardware engineering and Mac OS.

In any event people need to realize that just because they can get buy with 64 GB of storage doesn't imply that everybody can. ODD or the bay for that drive, are just one way to address the storage short fall.
post #163 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by StruckPaper View Post

I was talking about the MBA - comparing the current MBA to a hypothetical MBA with RP.

Specifically, RP requires a larger battery, we saw with the iPad and MBP. How can Apple add RP to MBA without a concomitant increase in size and weight? Perhaps putting Haswell chip in MBA offsets some of that. But is that enough to keep the current size and weight, without a decrease in battery life?

Mea culpa and good point. Let's run the numbers, shall we?

  • The 15' MBP went from 77.5Whr to 95Whr when it went Retina. That's a 22.58% gain in capacity.
  • The 13" MBP went from 63.5Whr to 74Whr when it went Retina. That's a 16.53% gain in capacity.

They're all Ivy Bridge microarchitecture, but I can't tell if the minor bumps also had any other power saving advancements. I may be able to deduce what changes they may have done with the battery life testings or real world results if I wanted to put in the effort (but I don't).

Assuming all other things equal the smaller Retina display needs a lower boost in battery size. That means that a 13" MBA would need 16% more juice to run the display for the same duration with the same setup. Can Haswell or Haswell+IGZO account for 10 Watt hours without having to under clock the system or make the battery larger?


Two other things of note:
  1. The percentage gain dropped with the smaller display. Sure, we expected the Watt hours to be lower, but the percentage being that much lower surprised me. Do this mean the 11" MBA may only need, say, a 10% gain with all other things being equal?
  2. The MBAs already had a high PPI than the MBPs, with the 13" MBA being 1440x900 whilst the 13" MBP being 1280x800 at 128PPI. Now I guess they might go for a full doubling there as they haven't yet deviated from that course, but I'm betting they go with the same Retina display on the 13" MBA as is on the 13" MBP with around a 220 PPI display. The 11" might be more tricky. Currently at 135 PPI would they go with 220 PPI for that do they want the UI elements to be smaller due to the much smaller display. One solution might be to use the 264 PPI display in the 9.7 iPad but that seems like overkill since that's a lot more pixels to push over being 220 PPI on that machine.

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post #164 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Look out you are offering up rational explanations of why certain features appeal to you. This will not go over well with the fanboys champion the recent decisions made by Apple or the rumors speculated on here.
But again the people here supporting Apple apparently don't actually work with their machines. By that I mean use the machine as a tool to earn a living. If they did they wouldn't be in such a hurry to see a homogenized line from Apple.

 

Thanks for summing up to us what you believe in the first sentence, and your contempt for anyone who disagrees with your opinion. Those that agree with you are "rational" and anyone who holds an alternate opinion is a "fanboy".

 

And of course, these people that "defend Apple" don't actually do any work on their machines, by the way. So when I say that I'm a designer and use my Macbook Air 100% of the time for making a living, I'm obviously lying, because that's impossible, and does not adhere to your worldview of what one does and does not need in a work machine. "Apparently" that work doesn't count, because the machine I use does not use some outdated technology that you in all your wisdom have deemed critically important for work to get done. 

 

I took the time to explain why I believe it makes sense for Apple to drop the older style MBPs, using very specific and tangible reasons that have nothing to do with emotion or the vague notion of "progress". You know what the funny thing is? People like you do this all the time. You bitch and whine everytime Apple makes a decision to move forward and get rid of cruft, whether it's dropping flash, not having a physical keyboard on the iPhone, getting rid of outdated ports, integrating the battery, making software only available online, etc- and yet, in spite of this, every single time, Apple becomes more and more successful and makes more sales. What does that tell you? Is Apple, one of the most successful companies on the planet, just utterly devoid of logic and rationality when it makes these decisions, as are the people who understand these decisions? That's what you're implying, and if thats the case Apple should have failed a long time ago. Maybe, just MAYBE you're the irrational one- and if you actually observe history objectively, you would find it to be true.

 

You can keep pulling use case scenarios for every single piece of technology out there, but Apple is under no obligation to continue supporting all these pieces to support archaic and outdated ways of doing things. I've continually adjusted my workflow to adapt to current technologies, and every single time that adjustment was worthwhile because it made things more efficient, portable, and reliable. There's some people out these who don't have the capacity to change- and they want Apple to mirror their inability to do so. This isn't going to happen, because one of the main reasons Apple is successful is because it does have the courage, vision, and philosophy to relentlessly adapt and change. And something tells me there's a shitload of extremely intelligent people at Apple, and these decisions have a rhyme and reason to them and are not "irrational" as you so desperately want to believe. Unfortunately with you, Apple has been vindicated pretty much each and every time with major decisions it's made of this nature. And people like you choose to ignore this fact, and simply sing the same tune the next time. 

 

Quote:
That doesn't mean the market for laptops with Ethernet ports, or optical drives or a high capacity for secondary store has died.

 

What a strawman argument. The market for physical keyboards hasn't completely "died" either. Do you believe Apple should manufacture a phone with a physical keyboard? Apple has never tried to fit every single possible market or niche group, so I have no idea what the point of that argument is. They make a product they believe can fulfill the needs of the majority. That's what they've always done, and pretending otherwise is pretty obtuse. You want products that contain the kitchen sink  because those companies don't have the conviction or vision to make any decisions, and are too scared about losing a handful of sales in order to move things forward? That describes almost every other company in the tech industry. Hell, most laptops still have damn vga ports. I'm glad at least we have a single company out there not scared to point the way forward. 


Edited by Slurpy - 6/2/13 at 5:02pm
post #165 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

¿Que? The MBP has plenty of features the MBA don't. There is no 15" MBA and there is no 11" MBP are the most obvious. Then you have processor, RAM, ports, battery life, GPU, etc. The MBPs are simply more capable and more powerful than the MBA. Did you have the same issue with the non-Retina MBPs against the MBAs?
There is no 11" rMBP or 15" air? Really? /s
I trust you know I know that already solip. I was speaking of the 13" air vs the 13" rMBP. The base rMBP can have the same ram as an air. Ports- ok- it has an HDMI and an extra thunderbolt- wow. Battery life- the exact same. GPU- the exact same (both integrated currently). Even the storage is the exact same.
So outside of the ports , retina, and processor (let's be honest- very few people would ever use it)- what exactly is the difference. You add retina to the air- is there a price increase? If so, That'd close the gap further.

Non-retinas had an optical drive and weighed a substantial amount more. The rMBPs aren't either.

Look- I'm all for retina on everything- it's awesome. I'm just saying I would predict a merger before they add retina to the air.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Never? Interesting prediction. I'd bet money you're wrong on that prediction.
We'll see 1wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by iRun262 View Post

It is ridiculous to say the the MBA won't ever get a retina display. Eventually ALL displays with be 'retina'. It is the future.
Would you have said that in 2010 about the MacBook?
I.e.- Unless they discontinue the air.

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post #166 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by runbuh View Post

One requires a wire to the user's endpoint, one does not.

This fact was ambiguous when I used the terms WiFi and Ethernet? This isn't Networking 001. I do expect readers to understand the basic differences.
Quote:
To use the car and truck analogy, we're really talking about high-speed trains versus single-engine airplanes.  Both can be used for transportation, but the path they follow from point a to point b cannot be followed by the other.

None of these analogies will ever ben perfect when talking about cars and trucks but I think of a high speed train as just a people mover, perhaps even a car carrier in certain places, but the cars and trucks analogy seems better to me because both can lead to the same places, not just adjacent to the same places. I can take my car or truck to Home Depot, but I can't take a train.

The reason they interchangeable is because it's all networking and it gets the user to the same place. The same machine can access the same data through the same router via an Ethernet switch port or WiFi. Many people utilize both every day without even thinking about. The same goes for Cellular and WiFi, especially on smartphones and tablets.

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post #167 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

If you aren't using an ODD to boot your machine for general use the way one might only use Ethernet to connect to a network for general use then your point has merit and a machine without an ODD would be quite cumbersome, but I don't see a nearly continuous and absolute need for an ODD for Mac users.
Lets see the following are items that are seldom in continuous use on my machine:
  1. the hard disk.
  2. the USB ports.
  3. the FireWire ports.
  4. the connector for the external video display.
  5. WiFi.
  6. Ethernet.
  7. Bluetooth.
  8. the old card slot.
Now of the above three of those I use less than the optical drive. Of those two not at all, yet Apples new machines come with some of those ports.
Quote:

Now you're not even being reasonable. 1oyvey.gif Do you really think that everyone said they needed and wanted Ethernet, ODD and 120 PPI display in their MBP until Apple removed it? I've been using an OptiBay drive in my MBP since it first came arrived.
So you needed a machine with an optical drive? You may have used that space for another requirement but such a configuration isn't even possible on retina MBP.
Quote:
Apple made something that didn't quite fit my needs so I adapted. Something this means modifying your kit, sometimes this means changing vendors, and sometimes this means modifying your expectations. If you can't do the first two you need to do the last one and stop implying everyone that is happy with a change you don't like are mindless iSheep.

I didn't imply that in the least. What I'm struggling with is the non arguments offered up by many for a homogenized portable line up. I think this is a big mistake on Apples part. Your post here demonstrates exactly what I'm getting at. People have different needs and the retina and AIR families are simply to inflexible to meet those needs. Frankly in the case of the retina MBP I don't think dropping the ODD is Apples biggest mistake with that platform. The big mistake in my mind is zero affordable mass storage options.

Right now it is hard to see the retina MBP as anything more than a massive overpriced boondoggle. Because frankly after the early adopter rush it looks like sales have dropped like the proverbial lead balloon.
post #168 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

The base rMBP can have the same ram as an air.

I like other points you make later in your post but comparing the highest configured 13" MBA to the base 13" MBP doesn't work. For example, you can configure the Mac mini with 8GB or even 16GB of RAM, but the base Mac Pro only comes with 6GB.

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post #169 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


This fact was ambiguous when I used the terms WiFi and Ethernet? This isn't Networking 001. I do expect readers to understand the basic differences.
None of these analogies will ever ben perfect when talking about cars and trucks but I think of a high speed train as just a people mover, perhaps even a car carrier in certain places, but the cars and trucks analogy seems better to me because both can lead to the same places, not just adjacent to the same places. I can take my car or truck to Home Depot, but I can't take a train.

The reason they interchangeable is because it's all networking and it gets the user to the same place. The same machine can access the same data through the same router via an Ethernet switch port or WiFi. Many people utilize both every day without even thinking about. The same goes for Cellular and WiFi, especially on smartphones and tablets.

Hmmm.  There definitely is no good analogy.  To most people, though, the communications you're talking about eventually require a wired network connection, which messes with the interchangeable logic (to networking geeks).

post #170 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I like other points you make later in your post but comparing the highest configured 13" MBA to the base 13" MBP doesn't work. For example, you can configure the Mac mini with 8GB or even 16GB of RAM, but the base Mac Pro only comes with 6GB.
True, I was just stating- for the money (by adding the ram)- they're very comparable with the base rMBP.

At the end of the day- I think everyone can agree there will be less Mac options before there are more Mac options as we get more and more portable. I think a single laptop line is the next step on that road- in 1-4 years that is.

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post #171 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

That doesn't make any sense. I still say price over anything.
Sure it is the price and capability delivered at that price. In this regard the retina machines are terrible values. It is what you get for the price you are paying that matters.
Quote:
And yeah, it does. Apple dropped a FireWire from the first-gen MacBook Pro, hell was raised, and it was brought back. If Ethernet is brought back (I don't believe it will be), well…
The problem is that they are trying to pass the retina machine off as a pro machine and that lack of an either net port pulls it out of that league. Right now customers have an option in the original MBPs. I still maintain that those original models are selling well because of what you get for the money you put out.
Quote:

I suspect that's nonsense.

Oh well!


The trouble with the retina machines is that it has AIR like features at unheard of MBP prices. The AIRs have a niche to fill but it isn't the pro market. Apples realignment of pricing a few months ago and the lowering of the price on the 13" model highlights to me an issue with perceived value from the customer base.
post #172 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1oyvey.gif If you don't understand how someone can connect to a WAN or LAN via both WiFi an Ethernet you really shouldn't be here.

I really don't understand why people argue this at all. The technology is well understood. The company I work for has probably close to a dozen wired Ethernet networks that never connect to the outside world. That is done for security and bandwidth. This doesn't include Ethernet usage that wouldn't pass as a network in the traditional sense.

In any event WiFi isn't even comparable to Ethernet security wise or bandwidth wise. Why people argue this is beyond me.
post #173 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Lets see the following are items that are seldom in continuous use on my machine:
  1. the hard disk.
  2. the USB ports.
  3. the FireWire ports.
  4. the connector for the external video display.
  5. WiFi.
  6. Ethernet.
  7. Bluetooth.
  8. the old card slot.
Now of the above three of those I use less than the optical drive. Of those two not at all, yet Apples new machines come with some of those ports.

1) They come with some but they have dropped others which you don't seem too upset about. What if you really think you need EC and the new Macs don't have it or you paid a lot of money for that EC card you want to keep using? I'm guessing that is one of the two you don't use at all. What if someone came on here complaining that Apple has messed up big time by removing it? Is there predilection warranted? There desire to want it is fine, but I don't see justification their desire should outweigh Apple's decision. What if they said that everyone they know uses EC?

2) I'd say that FW is likely a bigger issue for Mac users than the ODD. If you have a FW drive it most likely has USB 2.0, as well, but even that is slower than FW400 for large transfers. The solution is the TB-to-FW800 adapter but people complain about that. I don't think leaving that plugged into your FW cable is a big deal. I certainly have seen people get FW400-to-FW800 and FW800-to-FW400 adapters without complaining.

3) I personally don't use my video out on my MBP but I'm looking forward to having TB on my next MBP because it allows me so many options for data transfer without using the sparse number of USB ports. It's the same port as mDP so you can use it for a display, for data, or both at the same time.

4) You're comparing a port interfaces with no moving parts to a component that takes up 25% of a 13" MBP in what appears to be a claim that it's not fair. That's not a reasonable position. Even if add up the 2.5" 9.5mm HDD, EC/34 card slot, the WiFi/BT chip, and all the ports they all still take up considerably less space than the ODD. I bet they'll all use less power when all in use than the ODD spinning up.
Quote:
So you needed a machine with an optical drive? You may have used that space for another requirement but such a configuration isn't even possible on retina MBP.

Need has nothing to do with it. I wanted to utilize useless space.
Quote:
People have different needs and the retina and AIR families are simply to inflexible to meet those needs.

They do, but I think it's safe to say that Apple understands their consumer base better than a single user not liking that they no longer fit into Apple's ideal window. As stated, there are plenty o things I'd personally want if I was building my own Mac, but a consumer focused company doesn't depend on the individual need of a single user or small group of users.

I don't think you can prove that most Mac users need a slow, power-hungry, noisy, and questionably reliable ODD so often that it has to be in the device at all times. MBA, RMBP, Mac mini, iMac, netbooks, Ultrabooks, tablets, and even smartphones are showing that people aren't wanting that in every computer they own.
Quote:
Right now it is hard to see the retina MBP as anything more than a massive overpriced boondoggle. Because frankly after the early adopter rush it looks like sales have dropped like the proverbial lead balloon.

I can't see how that amazing machine is in any way a boondoggle but if they add the ODD back to it (or rather make the old style MBP Retina) I'll see your point on this.
boon•dog•gle |ˈbo͞onˌdägəl, -ˌdôgəl| informal
noun
- work or activity that is wasteful or pointless but gives the appearance of having value

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post #174 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

While everyone would prefer both speed and size it seems fusion is a good enough compromise. A 256gb or even 512 gb SSD paired with a 1.5 TB drive would be very useful for many pros.

That would be a nice combo! However I'm not sure why Apple limited the Fusion partition on the SSD to 100 GB of if that is indeed a hard number. In any event 256 GB or larger would allow for all apps and a few virtual machines on the SSD.

Actually if this can be stuffed successfully into future MBPs then one would be just as well off with a boot / app drive and a data drive that many used before Apple offered up fusion technology. It is just too bad Apple can't see the wisdom in offering such a feature for the retina machines.
post #175 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by runbuh View Post

Hmmm.  There definitely is no good analogy.  To most people, though, the communications you're talking about eventually require a wired network connection, which messes with the interchangeable logic (to networking geeks).

Would you also say that 802.11g and 802.11n aren't interchangeable ways to connect to a wireless network because the 802.11 technologies themselves aren't interchangeable? "802.11g can't connect to an 802.11n network so their not interchangeable¡" That's a pretty stupid comment to make and it's just as stupid to say that Ethernet and WiFi. An 802.11n router with a built in switch can allow connections to a LAN and WAN through any of those options as well as others. This cannot be contested.

Q: How do you want to connect to your networked drive?

How is that illogical? The point is to get Point A connected to Point B. The same goes for…

Q: How do you want to get to Home Depot?

You then way the pros and cons of your needs. If you need a faster connection you may go with wired. If you want to be more remote you may go for wireless. If you need to pick up a drill bit you may go fro the car, or even the Vespa. If you need to pick up plywood you may go for the pickup truck. A car and truck are interchangeable for doing the same task but it would be foolish for someone to read that as has having interchangeable components. Why would this simply fact even be an issue?
Edited by SolipsismX - 6/2/13 at 5:47pm

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post #176 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


That would be a nice combo! However I'm not sure why Apple limited the Fusion partition on the SSD to 100 GB of if that is indeed a hard number. In any event 256 GB or larger would allow for all apps and a few virtual machines on the SSD.

Actually if this can be stuffed successfully into future MBPs then one would be just as well off with a boot / app drive and a data drive that many used before Apple offered up fusion technology. It is just too bad Apple can't see the wisdom in offering such a feature for the retina machines.


If you have a current MBP, and don't need the ODD (doh!), I think you can combine this drive with an SDD and have it operate as a "true" DIY fusion drive if you follow the instructions at: 

http://blog.macsales.com/17624-os-x-10-8-3-provides-fusion-drive-setup-option-for-non-fusion-drive-equipped-macs

post #177 of 239
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post
Right now it is hard to see the retina MBP as anything more than a massive overpriced boondoggle. 

 

Now do you wonder why I ignore some of what you say?

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post #178 of 239

Same thinness, more battery.  

post #179 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Would you also say that 802.11g and 802.11n aren't interchangeable ways to connect to a wireless network because the 802.11 technologies themselves aren't interchangeable? "802.11g can't connect to an 802.11n network so their not interchangeable¡" That's a pretty stupid comment to make and it's just as stupid to say that Ethernet and WiFi. An 802.11n router with a built in switch can allow connections to a LAN and WAN through any of those options as well as others. This cannot be contested.
Q: How do you want to connect to your networked drive?

How is that illogical? The point is to get Point A connected to Point B. The same goes for…
Q: How do you want to get to Home Depot?

You then way the pros and cons of your needs. If you need a faster connection you may go with wired. If you want to be more remote you may go for wireless. If you need to pick up a drill bit you may go fro the car, or even the Vespa. If you need to pick up plywood you may go for the pickup truck. That's the basis of network design.


I'm not exactly sure what you're saying because the very definition of an 802.11n network is that it's backwards compatible with an 802.11g network (when not in Greenfield mode).  That's a pretty stupid comment of your own there, Skippy.  Here's the point I was trying to make earlier - you cannot get very far on a wi-fi connection before it will require a wire.  If you want to get outside of your mom's basement with your Wi-Fi connected computer and reach the network at your local Home Depot, your traffic will eventually be carried over a wired network.

post #180 of 239
Originally Posted by msimpson View Post
Same thinness, more battery.  

 

Oh, I dearly hope so. I'm quite fine with the thin kick Apple's on, but does it REALLY need done further right now when

 

1. Haswell supposedly brings THAT much longer life and

2. They'll be dropping traditional computers in a few years anyway

 

?

Originally posted by Marvin

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post #181 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


I'm looking at the products as a whole. The ODD is just one thing that causes people to turn up their noses at the rMBP. Storage price and capacity is a second issue. Take into account other issues and the old MBPs look very attractive to many users. Sure the retina screen is nice but a user gives up a lot to get that screen.

 

As if no one else is looking at the products as a whole? You know why people turn up their noses at the rMBP. But what about the people who bought the rMBP? Why did they do such an impudent thing? Why did they give up a lot? How can you explain that?

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post #182 of 239

I think this has to be the funniest thread I have looked through in awhile. 

 

I currently own a Macbook Pro Retina 15.4'' (I think the 13'' isn't even a pro model, it's intel GPU is sad). I LOVE this Macbook. I do not miss the CD drive and I think it is a way better buy than the regular 15.4'' model. That said, I see the market for both of them. I know a ton of people that use them and need the CD drives. You all say that people who want CD drives need to store all of that information on a HDD. Well, my Macbook only has 256gb (I couldn't pay the high price of a 500gb+ SSD, as I am sure many people can't). How many movies, games, songs, etc.. can fit on a 256gb HDD? Not too much. For those that like CD drives and large capacities, 256gb isn't going to cut it. 

This is a Pro laptop, I deal without the large hard drive, despite running windows with programs like AutoCAD, Solidworks, etc.... But some of these files can quickly run up in the GBs. It can become annoying to carry an external (as many have said before, it defeats the purpose). I also think the build quality between the two is the same. Additionally, I think both Macbook lines have the same build quality. I think the size difference is no big deal either, 4.5lbs vs what? 7? All the same to me.

 

 

My point is that there is up sides and down sides to both. Pick your favorite and buy it. 

 

 

I just hope Apple focuses more on increasing the battery life of it's Macbooks to 10+ hours rather than making them thinner. I prefer function over form. I don't care about .3lbs and .1'' if it costs me 2 hours of battery life. My brother is in the market for his first macbook, so I am going to watch Apple closely. If they are overly focused on form rather than function, I will recommend another product more suited for his work needs. 

post #183 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Mea culpa and good point. Let's run the numbers, shall we?

  • The 15' MBP went from 77.5Whr to 95Whr when it went Retina. That's a 22.58% gain in capacity.
  •  
  • The 13" MBP went from 63.5Whr to 74Whr when it went Retina. That's a 16.53% gain in capacity.

They're all Ivy Bridge microarchitecture, but I can't tell if the minor bumps also had any other power saving advancements. I may be able to deduce what changes they may have done with the battery life testings or real world results if I wanted to put in the effort (but I don't).

Assuming all other things equal the smaller Retina display needs a lower boost in battery size. That means that a 13" MBA would need 16% more juice to run the display for the same duration with the same setup. Can Haswell or Haswell+IGZO account for 10 Watt hours without having to under clock the system or make the battery larger?


Two other things of note:
  1. The percentage gain dropped with the smaller display. Sure, we expected the Watt hours to be lower, but the percentage being that much lower surprised me. Do this mean the 11" MBA may only need, say, a 10% gain with all other things being equal?
  2.  
  3. The MBAs already had a high PPI than the MBPs, with the 13" MBA being 1440x900 whilst the 13" MBP being 1280x800 at 128PPI. Now I guess they might go for a full doubling there as they haven't yet deviated from that course, but I'm betting they go with the same Retina display on the 13" MBA as is on the 13" MBP with around a 220 PPI display. The 11" might be more tricky. Currently at 135 PPI would they go with 220 PPI for that do they want the UI elements to be smaller due to the much smaller display. One solution might be to use the 264 PPI display in the 9.7 iPad but that seems like overkill since that's a lot more pixels to push over being 220 PPI on that machine.

Good analysis. Your numbers do suggest that, if Haswell comes as advertised, Apple might be able to pull this off. 

 

One thing I didn't take into acct, which you have, is that they may not double the PPI on the MBA. If they do, that would give 13" rMBA a superior spec to the 13" rMBP, albeit slight. Furthermore, there is a rumor that the new rMBPs are thinner, possibly due to power performance gains in using Haswell.

 

So we might end with a rMBA but rMBP will be thinner than before. Wouldn't that blur the lines even more between the Pro and Air lines? 

post #184 of 239
Your characterization here is completely out of bounds as far as a reflection upon what I have said in this thread and in the past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Well yeah, but you're the crusty old naysayer who is against anything new, so I'm not going to pay much attention to your point of view.  1wink.gif
You're constantly telling everyone that the iPad is crap and that you can't do anything with it as far as I recall.  
I've never told anybody that the iPad is crap. I have two of them right now and probably will have a third when the new one comes out. That being said the platform isn't perfect and people need to realize that when buying one. Realizing a devices limitations is not negativity and it certainly isn't calling it crap.
Quote:
The guy I was responding to is obviously one of those picky types that thinks his little system that he's worked out is the best and clearly (like you) isn't really open to a new way of working, which is why I didn't respond to his last post.  He basically wan't a desktop class machine, that's portable, that also works for work and personal, and nothing short of that will do for him.  There isn't much to say once you realise that.  His description of his needs is a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.  
The problem is that is realizable with today's technology but not in a retina MBP. What you and many others can't seem to fathom is that the retina MBP is a step backwards for many users.
Quote:
I was trying to point out that he would do better with a desktop class machine at home and a different, lighter, mobile setup, but he isn't open to new ways of working so I respected that.  I know a few photographers myself, and I know that even some of the high end fashion photogs nowadays use pretty much the exact setup I was putting forward as a suggestion, so I thought it was worth explaining it, in case the fellow hadn't heard about it.  You, on the other hand, are just being crotchety and contrary as usual.  
Well it really depends upon many factors. If he is photographing architecture that may mean a view camera with digital back or at least a camera with movements (a shift lens). In some cases there is no way to pull this off in the field without a laptop. I'm trying not to assume what technology the guy is using here.
Quote:
I could point out how wrong you are about optical discs being "good storage" and a bunch of other stuff but I know from your posts here over the years that you aren't really interested either in debate or even "the facts" for that matter.
This is pure baloney. Every backup method has its limitations.
Quote:
  In fact, you seem so thoroughly uninterested in anything new or different that I fail to understand why you like Macs at all, or why you haunt this forum.  You come across as a deeply conservative, and extremely negative individual which is the opposite of the type that usually gravitates towards Macs.  

Do you realize how foolish the above statement is? You try to paint Mac users as as of one persuasion which makes no sense at all. In any event I don't buy "new" simply to make myself look trendy in public, I buy new if it is something that works for me. IPad is a perfect example of something that works well for me, the iPhone I own is a harder sell. I'm not afraid to say that one works better for me than the other - that isn't being conservative it is called speaking your mind and reflecting upon what you own and how you use it. As to politics I'm more of a libertarian leaning than anything as I believe in freedom and ethics something liberals no nothing about.

Speaking of persuasions liberals can be just as disconnected with reality as conservatives. Often liberalism is a sort of blindness to reality. The liberal hand wringing over battery powered electric cars is one example. The idea of an electric car is great but comes up against the stone wall of battery technology. Until a form of electric power is devised that deals with the battery issue promoting electric cars for everybody is just foolish. Research should be going into electric power sources that can replace batteries like fusion technologies but we all know how liberals run in fear of the word nuclear. Clean up the power problem and then start promoting electric cars for everybody. The point is the technology has to be ready for large scale adoption.

You take my positions on certain things as a dis interest or extreme negativity which you have the right to do but I don't see it that way at all. Each technological development has a time and place. Flash storage works great in the Mac Book AIRs because it fits the use case for the groups being targeted by those machines. It doesn't fit the needs of many pro users however because it doesn't meet their storage needs especially in a machine like the retina MBP. This isn't negativity it is called speaking your mind and point out serious short falls. The technology just isn't ready for that large scale adoption.

In the end I still don't understand why so many defend Apple with their backwards moves with respect to the retina machines. Running a successful company is about servicing your customers needs. As such the retina MBP only addresses a fairly narrow subset of what I would call professional users. It is certainly a far narrower subset than the original MBPs cover. This is why many of us want to see the originals updated and kept current until technology allows the retina MBP to economically replace those machines. I'm not even sure what that has to do with being conservative, liberal or just a plain pain in the ass.
post #185 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

If they add retina to the air- what is the benefit to the rMBP?
People keep talking about retina for the air- I don't think we see it ever. I think it gets discontinued or they combine before that happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iRun262 View Post


It is ridiculous to say the the MBA won't ever get a retina display. Eventually ALL displays with be 'retina'. It is the future.

 

Phones got 'em, Pads got 'em, Pixel's got one*, even MBP's got 'em....  ...(and when it fits the price/power point)... ...let's do it!

*[Pixel and Kira may or may not have the optical quality of the rMBP's - e.g., I dunno if they're "pentile" or what. Jus' sayin'....]

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmacs View Post

You have given quite a few reasons why the other Macbooks are far better products in most ways. But not why they need to discontinue the old one. I am seriously interested in knowing why. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmacs View Post

I just want to know why people are suffering because Apple keeps a model? 


It's not "people suffering" that determines this.... ...it's strictly Apple's view of the business case for keeping on with building, stocking and selling 'em....  ...and I believe "they have people for that" kind of analysis.... ...'least ways their ongoing bottom lines kinda/sorta indicate they have a decent sense of this.....

....Meanwhile, there will always be people who truly enjoy riding in a horse-drawn buggy or carriage.  And they can do so, e.g., in NYC, in Central Park.

An iPhone, a Leatherman and thou...  ...life is complete.

Reply

An iPhone, a Leatherman and thou...  ...life is complete.

Reply
post #186 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Lets see the following are items that are seldom in continuous use on my machine:
  1. the hard disk.
  2. the USB ports.
  3. the FireWire ports.
  4. the connector for the external video display.
  5. WiFi.
  6. Ethernet.
  7. Bluetooth.
  8. the old card slot.
Now of the above three of those I use less than the optical drive. Of those two not at all, yet Apples new machines come with some of those ports.

 

 

While I agree with you, I also wonder whom among us (power users) are bothered by the lack of one feature or another on a given device. Don't we all have multiple machines and financial resources to afford external drives or accessories that provide whatever we need?

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #187 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

That's an interesting take i hadn't yet heard. I assumed these iGPUs will be more powerful than in the current 13" RMBP.

They will be more powerful but my understanding is that the 5200 HD bearing processors won't come until September. I could be wrong of course and further we should know the details this week but there are supposedly three variants of the new GPU, often referred to as GT1 GT2 and GT3 in the past. So you get three levels of performance. Intel is now branding them with the Iris name. I'd scan the net to see what is suspected for this month but at this point we can just wait for Intel to tell us this week with the Haswell launch.

This whole brand name, part number and code name business can be confusing at times. In any event supposedly everything in the Haswell family doesn't launch this week. Just a bit over a week now for WWDC, then we will have the meat and potatoes.
post #188 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) Yeah, I never said that wireless was't ever an option. In fact I said I use an Ethernet connection to get a faster connection with my iMac, but you'd have to have actually read what I wrote before commenting.
 

 

 

This has zero to do with the point that wireless is not an option in many corporate networks.  The faster connectivity is a nice to have.

Quote:

2) The technologies are used interchangeably. This is undeniable by you have attempted to do so. I also stated they clearly had pros and cons. You claimed otherwise. You might to revisit that cars and truck analogy that you seem so fond of. Cars are trucks can be used for the same purpose (i.e.: interchangeably) but no where does that mean that each, even with classifications of just cars or just trucks, all have the exact same advantages and disadvantages.

 

 

Yes, WiFi and Ethernet fills the same roles in different ways.  They are SOMETIMES interchangeable and sometimes NOT.  It is the NOT segment that is important to the discussion at hand as to whether or not it is important that the port is provided on the latest gen MBP.  The fact that WiFi exists is almost immaterial to the discussion.  Only whether TB docking stations and TB ethernet dongles don't suck.

 

Quote:
Now, do you want to add to the conversation or act pissy again that I called out your stupidity. Either way, I'd appreciate if think a little more before you respond.

 

 

I'm not the genius that wrote:

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

WiFi is certainly not a replacement for all types of networked communication, especially in regards to security, but they are both interchangeable for all intents and purposes as they are networking technologies.
 

Obviously if it's "certainly not a replacement" for x then it cannot be interchangeable for ALL intents and purposes.  Regardless of your logic failure what you attempt to do in this sentence is to completely ignore the reason why folks object to the assertion that WiFi can replace Ethernet on the MBP.

 

Which is:

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe View Post

However, the lack of Ethernet is still a minor frustration point. Wifi may be good enough for most at home or a Starbucks; but Ethernet is still faster, more reliable, and the only way most businesses let you connect to secure data.

 

 

and

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

 

I use Ethernet [at home on my network] and at every consulting job I've ever worked for within the Fortune 1000.

 

The fact is that they are not interchangeable because WiFi connectivity is explicitly disallowed.  That you don't agree with this policy is neither here nor there because you don't make IT decisions for Fortune 1000 companies.

 

This would be exactly like insisting that a USB flash drive can replace optical media in instances where USB flash drives are explicitly disallowed due to security reasons.

post #189 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

 

The fact is that they are not interchangeable because WiFi connectivity is explicitly disallowed.  That you don't agree with this policy is neither here nor there because you don't make IT decisions for all Fortune 1000 companies.

 

This would be exactly like insisting that a USB flash drive can replace optical media in instances where USB flash drives are explicitly disallowed due to security reasons.

Being logical will simply not be tolerated here. This is a debating forum where people take opposite sides and argue them to death.

post #190 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

 

 

This has zero to do with the point that wireless is not an option in many corporate networks.  The faster connectivity is a nice to have.

 

 

Yes, WiFi and Ethernet fills the same roles in different ways.  They are SOMETIMES interchangeable and sometimes NOT.  It is the NOT segment that is important to the discussion at hand as to whether or not it is important that the port is provided on the latest gen MBP.  The fact that WiFi exists is almost immaterial to the discussion.  Only whether TB docking stations and TB ethernet dongles don't suck.

 

 

 

I'm not the genius that wrote:

 

 

Obviously if it's "certainly not a replacement" for x then it cannot be interchangeable for ALL intents and purposes.  Regardless of your logic failure what you attempt to do in this sentence is to completely ignore the reason why folks object to the assertion that WiFi can replace Ethernet on the MBP.

 

Which is:

 

 

 

and

 

 

The fact is that they are not interchangeable because WiFi connectivity is explicitly disallowed.  That you don't agree with this policy is neither here nor there because you don't make IT decisions for Fortune 1000 companies.

 

This would be exactly like insisting that a USB flash drive can replace optical media in instances where USB flash drives are explicitly disallowed due to security reasons.

 

Who the hell are you arguing with? I've clearly stated Fortune 1000 dictate the use of Ethernet and you've managed to mangle it as I don't make the choices for them. Grow up.

post #191 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

 

Who the hell are you arguing with? I've clearly stated Fortune 1000 dictate the use of Ethernet and you've managed to mangle it as I don't make the choices for them. Grow up.


I think he was using your point, and thataveragejoe's point, to bolster his comments to SolipsismX.

post #192 of 239
I just realized that I've spent a lot of time screwing around with this thread. Getting close to time to leave but you have good points here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) They come with some but they have dropped others which you don't seem too upset about. What if you really think you need EC and the new Macs don't have it or you paid a lot of money for that EC card you want to keep using? I'm guessing that is one of the two you don't use at all. What if someone came on here complaining that Apple has messed up big time by removing it? Is there predilection warranted? There desire to want it is fine, but I don't see justification their desire should outweigh Apple's decision. What if they said that everyone they know uses EC?
EC? In any event there are things on my MBP that I don't use at all that was my point. Does it make sense to delete them because "I" don't use them. This whole thread revolves around this issue.
Quote:
2) I'd say that FW is likely a bigger issue for Mac users than the ODD. If you have a FW drive it most likely has USB 2.0, as well, but even that is slower than FW400 for large transfers. The solution is the TB-to-FW800 adapter but people complain about that. I don't think leaving that plugged into your FW cable is a big deal. I certainly have seen people get FW400-to-FW800 and FW800-to-FW400 adapters without complaining.
Actually FireWire is one of those things I don't use at all on my MBP. I alway found it to be flaky which might mean that I have a bad motherboard but the other ports do fine for me.
Quote:
3) I personally don't use my video out on my MBP but I'm looking forward to having TB on my next MBP because it allows me so many options for data transfer without using the sparse number of USB ports. It's the same port as mDP so you can use it for a display, for data, or both at the same time.
You have not seen me complain about the move to TB because it does offer real advantageous over previous ports.
Quote:
4) You're comparing a port interfaces with no moving parts to a component that takes up 25% of a 13" MBP in what appears to be a claim that it's not fair. That's not a reasonable position.
Not really wash at I was objecting to is that the idea that some people don't use the optical so that is a justification to delete it on all machines. There are things on my MBP that I don't use at all, but that is not a reason for me to say that the support needs to be deleted for everybody. What I'm objecting to is the argument that goes like this: "I don't need it so you don't either", which seems like the basis of many posts here.
Quote:
Even if add up the 2.5" 9.5mm HDD, EC/34 card slot, the WiFi/BT chip, and all the ports they all still take up considerably less space than the ODD. I bet they'll all use less power when all in use than the ODD spinning up.
True but that is no different than trying to spin up an optical over USB, if you can find one that works over USB. You have to admit dropping the USB drive significantly lowers the flexibility of the machine as now that space is not retaskable.
Quote:
Need has nothing to do with it. I wanted to utilize useless space.
This is the whole point though it isn't useless space because you where able to leverage that space for your needs. You couldn't do this on the retina MBP if you wanted too.
Quote:
They do, but I think it's safe to say that Apple understands their consumer base better than a single user not liking that they no longer fit into Apple's ideal window. As stated, there are plenty o things I'd personally want if I was building my own Mac, but a consumer focused company doesn't depend on the individual need of a single user or small group of users.
I realize that Apple can't meet the needs of every single person out there. However they have gone out of their way to make a "pro" computer that meets the needs of a significantly smaller population of their users than previous machines in the retina MBP. Some see that as progress I don't. I actually think they realize that this is a problem thus they have kept the old MBP around.
Quote:
I don't think you can prove that most Mac users need a slow, power-hungry, noisy, and questionably reliable ODD so often that it has to be in the device at all times. MBA, RMBP, Mac mini, iMac, netbooks, Ultrabooks, tablets, and even smartphones are showing that people aren't wanting that in every computer they own.
No one here is saying Apple should put an optical in every laptop they sell. All I'm saying is that there is a need to have some models available with that feature. Even if that is for users that chuck the drive and install a hard drive in that space.
Quote:
I can't see how that amazing machine is in any way a boondoggle but if they add the ODD back to it (or rather make the old style MBP Retina) I'll see your point on this.

Well I guess that is an issue of perspective. I'm under the impression the retina machines aren't selling as well as Apple had hoped after the early adopter rush. I could be wrong but the realignment of pricing on the 13" machine is one sign. It will be real interesting to see how the line up changes at WWDC and if there are aggressive pricing changes. I expect the price of the retina machines to eventually come down but it is a question of how aggressively that happens.

It will also be interesting to see if the screen gets updated to IGZO tech. If that technology truly allows for the power savings implied it might allow Apple to add room for a second or maybe even a third SSD module. This would go a very long way towards addressing real user concerns with this machine and the current expensive flash storage options. It would bring back some of the flexibility given up in the current machine.

So maybe boondoggle was a little over the top but I think it is fair to say that Apple could do much to the retina machine to make it more attractive to a wider array of users. If not boondoggle it is certainly an overpriced niche item right now.
post #193 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


****, Dude, learn to follow the conversion because I won't relent just because you're thick. He responded to wizard69's comment which also mentioned "Being that I have to carry around an external for my old MBP I know the feeling well." 1oyvey.gif

 

The point is a very simple one:  The options proposed to meet his needs would not be possible if he owned a MBPr rather than a cMBP because a cMBP is far more flexible.  If he had a MBPr he'd simply be screwed.

 

Hence the cMBP is very desirable among many professional users over the MBPr and a Haswell update to the current cMBP would be well received.  Hopefully at least the 15" MBP will get a refresh.  The HDD, ODD and ethernet ports are all widely used by business and pro users.

 

Frankly the MBA is such a capable machine that a good number of business users will find it more attractive than the 13" MBPr and would wish for a 15" MBA.  But some pros find the lack of an ethernet port and HDD to be significant hinderances in their day to day use.  Are there work arounds?  Yes.  It is simple an unnecessary annoyance to have to do so for a truck.  I would like the sleekest and coolest looking truck I could buy but not at the expense of being able to serve as a truck.  Especially if the brand already had a line of very svelte light trucks already.

 

Again, stop being a dick because people disagree with your very very narrow viewpoint.

post #194 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

As if no one else is looking at the products as a whole?
Everybody has a different perspective.
Quote:
You know why people turn up their noses at the rMBP.
Where did this ignorance come from? No body is turning their nose up at the retina MBP, clearly what is being said is that it is a very poor value for a lot of users. That might be due to the lack of an ODD or the lack of significant bulk storage capacity or other completely different issues.
Quote:
But what about the people who bought the rMBP? Why did they do such an impudent thing? Why did they give up a lot? How can you explain that?
If you don't understand what has been said up until now further explaining would be useless. I'm certain there are happy retina users out there but that doesn't mean there are a large number of users flocking to buy this machine. It comes down to this, many users are taking the original MBP over the retina. Some thing that is purely an issue of price but I don't buy that. A good portion of those buyers are skipping the retina machine not for what it has but rather what has been left out.
post #195 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

I think this has to be the funniest thread I have looked through in awhile. 
I'm glad that something good has come from this thread!
Quote:
I currently own a Macbook Pro Retina 15.4'' (I think the 13'' isn't even a pro model, it's intel GPU is sad). I LOVE this Macbook. I do not miss the CD drive and I think it is a way better buy than the regular 15.4'' model. That said, I see the market for both of them. I know a ton of people that use them and need the CD drives. You all say that people who want CD drives need to store all of that information on a HDD. Well, my Macbook only has 256gb (I couldn't pay the high price of a 500gb+ SSD, as I am sure many people can't). How many movies, games, songs, etc.. can fit on a 256gb HDD? Not too much. For those that like CD drives and large capacities, 256gb isn't going to cut it. 
The problem I have is with the people suggesting to kill the original MBP. As you highlight here it is a real and viable alternative to the retina machine.
Quote:
This is a Pro laptop, I deal without the large hard drive, despite running windows with programs like AutoCAD, Solidworks, etc.... But some of these files can quickly run up in the GBs. It can become annoying to carry an external (as many have said before, it defeats the purpose). I also think the build quality between the two is the same. Additionally, I think both Macbook lines have the same build quality. I think the size difference is no big deal either, 4.5lbs vs what? 7? All the same to me.


My point is that there is up sides and down sides to both. Pick your favorite and buy it. 
Exactly, which makes calls to kill the original machines so asinine. There will be a day when the retina machine can effectively replace the other unit but it isn't today and not with the current design.
Quote:

I just hope Apple focuses more on increasing the battery life of it's Macbooks to 10+ hours rather than making them thinner. I prefer function over form. I don't care about .3lbs and .1'' if it costs me 2 hours of battery life. My brother is in the market for his first macbook, so I am going to watch Apple closely. If they are overly focused on form rather than function, I will recommend another product more suited for his work needs. 

You do realize that at one time getting an hour out if a laptop was considered pretty good. I'm rather pleased with what Apple has accomplished so far.
post #196 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

 

Who the hell are you arguing with? I've clearly stated Fortune 1000 dictate the use of Ethernet and you've managed to mangle it as I don't make the choices for them. Grow up.

 

That part was unclearly written (or at the very least unclearly formatted).  I was pointing out to SolX that the primary objection you and thataveragejoe had was that WiFi was prohibited.   

 

I was not responding to you or arguing with you.  If anything what you wrote was mild in the case of some security profiles where the existence of the radio is disallowed although for many places I've seen they have software lockouts in place.  When connected to ethernet the software automatically disables the wifi.  It's hackable (since it is just software) but they are trying to eliminate user error vs hackers in that case.

post #197 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpics View Post

Phones got 'em, Pads got 'em, Pixel's got one*, even MBP's got 'em....  ...(and when it fits the price/power point)... ...let's do it!
It is certainly possible but I'm just not sure the tech is ready for AIR. Not because if the screens which are obviously here now but rather due to the GPU. I'm just not sure Haswell has the oomph to drive such a display at AIR power levels.
Quote:

*[Pixel and Kira may or may not have the optical quality of the rMBP's - e.g., I dunno if they're "pentile" or what. Jus' sayin'....]




It's not "people suffering" that determines this.... ...it's strictly Apple's view of the business case for keeping on with building, stocking and selling 'em....  ...and I believe "they have people for that" kind of analysis.... ...'least ways their ongoing bottom lines kinda/sorta indicate they have a decent sense of this.....


....Meanwhile, there will always be people who truly enjoy riding in a horse-drawn buggy or carriage.  And they can do so, e.g., in NYC, in Central Park.

NYC is a place I will avoid for as long as I can. I'd rather fly to Las Vegas, clear across the country, than to ever get near NYC again. The people are much nicer out west.
post #198 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post


While I agree with you, I also wonder whom among us (power users) are bothered by the lack of one feature or another on a given device. Don't we all have multiple machines and financial resources to afford external drives or accessories that provide whatever we need?

I certainly don't and frankly neither does the company I work for. Everybody has limits and different appreciations for value.
post #199 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by tikiman View Post

 

 

Our personal average is 3-4 battery replacements before we typically move to a new computer (older machines end up sticking around for secondary uses (kids, kitchen/recipes/browsing, etc.). I realize this is a longer lifecycle than for some people, but these are good machines and I hate to throw them out just because their batteries are no longer up to snuff and when they can still be useful.

That's about right. I'm running my third battery in my late 2006 MBP and it's not holding a charge any longer. Damn, these Apple laptops just won't die!!! 1smile.gif

"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #200 of 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


I'm certain there are happy retina users out there but that doesn't mean there are a large number of users flocking to buy this machine. It comes down to this, many users are taking the original MBP over the retina. Some thing that is purely an issue of price but I don't buy that. A good portion of those buyers are skipping the retina machine not for what it has but rather what has been left out.

Are there numbers out there indicating unequivocally that (a) there are not a larger number of rMBP customers and (b) many users are taking the original MBP over the RP version?

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