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Intel makes 'Thunderbolt 2' official with 20Gbps speeds, late 2013 launch - Page 2

post #41 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

My thoughts were that it is not widely adopted yet. It is still in its infancy as far as being widely used. There isn't a wide range of affordable accessories for TB yet....and now we have TB2 coming. So i don't see prices dropping to where everyone will buy one. The thing about DVI was that the display manufacturers and video card makers all started incorporating them into their products. They advertised it was going to make gaming faster. They had a very eager audience that willingly adopted DVI based on the fact that it made their gaming experience better. There was no price difference in the products......

1) And what is keeping people from plugging in a monitor that supports DP signaling? Can't the port also be used with displays that support DVI/HDMI signaling?

2) I seem to recall that GPUs and PCs cost more if they supported DVI and DP when they were first released.

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post #42 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

 

 

Many Macs except for the Pro have TB.  The new devices therefore will work with older computers that don't have TB2.

 

That would be thousands.

 

Except for the fact that there's like 50 TB devices total on the market right now...That was my point. Not the Macs themselves. 

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post #43 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oflife View Post

The mini DisplayPort / Thunderbolt connector is not really that good. I have a 2011 MBA 13" connected to a superb Dell monitor via DisplayPort, but the plug that goes into the MBA is not as well thought out as say Lightening, and likewise, the large connector that plugs into the monitor (looks like an HDMI with only one chamfered corner) is very very difficult to unplug.

It is a pity the industry could not agree on the anyway up Lightening connector for Thunderbolt and use it to usurp the ageing and not very imaginative USB connectors.

???

 

The Thunderbolt connector is great. And you're complaining about Displayport connector, which is on your Dell monitor, in an Apple forum. And your complaint is that its is difficult to UNPLUG? What are you looking for in a monitor connector, fast and loose? 1rolleyes.gif

post #44 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

My thoughts were that it is not widely adopted yet. It is still in its infancy as far as being widely used. There isn't a wide range of affordable accessories for TB yet....and now we have TB2 coming. So i don't see prices dropping to where everyone will buy one. The thing about DVI was that the display manufacturers and video card makers all started incorporating them into their products. They advertised it was going to make gaming faster. They had a very eager audience that willingly adopted DVI based on the fact that it made their gaming experience better. There was no price difference in the products......

Considering the same machines now have USB 3, what makes you think the intention ever was or ever will be for "everyone to buy one"?

 

Its a professional level connector.

post #45 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Is there anyone besides the manufacturers who believe that Retina Cinema Displays, or Retina TVs, have any real world purpose?

In what scenario is 1080p not good enough from 10 feet away?

I do. At 60" 1080p isn't likely to have the Retina effect for a great many viewers. The 27" iMac with WQHD is now below the MBP and not too much higher than the pixel count on the iPad and soon to be iPad mini. Going 4K on an HDTV is double the resolution but on the 27" iMac it's only 50% more resolution. That is the change I expect, not going double to 5120x2880 despite Apple having down that with iPhone, iPod Touch, iPad, 15" MBP and 13" MBP without any deviation.

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post #46 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


1) And what is keeping people from plugging in a monitor that supports DP signaling?

2) I seem to recall that GPUs and PCs cost more if they supported DVI and DP when they were first released.

you bring things up that I never talked about in my original post..... I never mentioned USB nor did i mention DVI or DP. You brought those things up in the TB discussion.

A PC did not need to cost more to plugin a video card that supported DVI.

The rapid adoption of DVI was because it filled a need for the gaming community. They wanted a faster video throughput. The same environment does not exist for TB. Peripherals are more expensive than the alternatives and are not as widely available. Thats what my comment was about.

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post #47 of 136

twice nothing is still nothing until this standard is more widely adopted

post #48 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

Except for the fact that there's like 50 TB devices total on the market right now...That was my point. Not the Macs themselves. 

What about all the monitors that support the DisplayPort protocol?

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post #49 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Considering the same machines now have USB 3, what makes you think the intention ever was or ever will be for "everyone to buy one"?

 

Its a professional level connector.

I agree with you....... My original statement was in alignment with that very fact. 

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post #50 of 136
Originally Posted by sirdir View Post
Isn't 2x10 in fact the same as 20?
i.E. the total possible throughput on todays Thunderbolt is the same?

 

No… Because Thunderbolt is 10Gbps each way right now. And this is 20Gbps each way… 1oyvey.gif

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post #51 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

you bring things up that I never talked about in my original post..... I never mentioned USB nor did i mention DVI or DP. You brought those things up in the TB discussion.

I brought up things that the mDP port that supports TB an do. You can't simply ignore all the displays on the market that will work with that port to make your argument.
Quote:
A PC did not need to cost more to plugin a video card that supported DVI.

Sure it did. A newer, more advanced that supports more advanced display communications does cost more. If it does then tell me why netbooks typically only had VGA ports and not DVI or DP?
Quote:
The rapid adoption of DVI was because it filled a need for the gaming community. They wanted a faster video throughput. The same environment does not exist for TB.

So we don't need faster (I assume you mean more bandwidth) video throughput since DVI was released? Seriously?
Quote:
Peripherals are more expensive than the alternatives and are not as widely available. Thats what my comment was about.

I bet I can find plenty of displays that work with my TB port on my Mac. They are surely more expensive than a VGA monitor but they support much higher bandwidths that I contend we need today and will need in the future despite your assertion that there is no environment that exists for video out capabilities beyond what DVI offers.

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post #52 of 136
Ohhh... Apple 4k TV???? I want!
post #53 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

No… Because Thunderbolt is 10Gbps each way right now. And this is 20Gbps each way… 1oyvey.gif

The recent wording from Intel is painting a different picture. Before it was 10Gb/s in each direction with a total aggregate of 20Gb/s due to the separate channels, but now it appears that it can be 20Gb/s in each direction but with a total aggregate of 20Gb/s due to its bi-directional nature. So in total it's the same throughput but with the ability to now support 4K video which needs at least 11.6Gb/s in one direction. Intel is still very spotty with the specifics so we'll just have to wait until Falcon Ridge gets closer to know for sure.

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post #54 of 136
Originally Posted by scotty321 View Post
Because Thunderbolt 1 was such a hit! (Rolls eyes)


Don't you have some bridges to clean?


Originally Posted by macxpress View Post
Backwards compatible...for all of those thousands of thunderbolt devices that are out there.

 

So Apple has sold 1,999 Macs with Thunderbolt?

 

Originally Posted by jmc54 View Post
twice nothing is still nothing until this standard is more widely adopted

 

Go away.


Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post
Before it was 10Gb/s in each direction with a total aggregate of 20Gb/s due to the separate channels, but now it appears that it can be 20Gb/s in each direction but with a total aggregate of 20Gb/s due to its bi-directional nature.

 

That's just foolish… The last thing Thunderbolt needs is idiotic, confusing standard changes like USB: the "universal" bus with six different connectors. What, I suppose there will be a "Thunderbolt 2.5" eventually that does 20 both ways simultaneously, and then a Thunderbolt 3 that does 40Gbps one way… 


Thanks, though.

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post #55 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I brought up things that the mDP port that supports TB an do. You can't simply ignore all the displays on the market that will work with that port to make your argument.
Sure it did. A newer, more advanced that supports more advanced display communications does cost more. If it does then tell me why netbooks typically only had VGA ports and not DVI or DP?
So we don't need faster (I assume you mean more bandwidth) video throughput since DVI was released? Seriously?
I bet I can find plenty of displays that work with my TB port on my Mac. They are surely more expensive than a VGA monitor but they support much higher bandwidths that I contend we need today and will need in the future despite your assertion that there is no environment that exists for video out capabilities beyond what DVI offers.

Now you are just trying to be difficult. You ask questions about things I never brought up like DP and DVI. You brought those up so I will leave you answer your own questions. I never said there were no peripherals for TB.......

When DVI was being released as you brought it up you did not have to have a new or expensive PC to plug the video card into. This was BEFORE netbooks were around. Consumers at that time did not buy Netbooks to game on.....they could and some might but not widely done. 

The highlighted portion? Show me where I said that or even alluded to it? I never brought up DVI or video throughput. You did......my comments were on TB...

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post #56 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

That's just foolish… The last thing Thunderbolt needs is idiotic, confusing standard changes like USB: the "universal" bus with six different connectors. What, I suppose there will be a "Thunderbolt 2.5" eventually that does 20 both ways simultaneously, and then a Thunderbolt 3 that does 40Gbps one way… 

Thanks, though.

It's certainly confusing but it might be only to us. All the consumer will eventually need to know is they have TB2 so they can support their 4K display.

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post #57 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty321 View Post

Because Thunderbolt 1 was such a hit! (Rolls eyes)

And so affordable too.  Let me dig around my bank account for another $60 to buy a cable that attaches to my $400 500 gig hard drive.

post #58 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

The highlighted portion? Show me where I said that or even alluded to it? I never brought up DVI or video throughput. You did......my comments were on TB...

You wrote, "The rapid adoption of DVI was because it filled a need for the gaming community. They wanted a faster video throughput. The same environment does not exist for TB."

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post #59 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Is there anyone besides the manufacturers who believe that Retina Cinema Displays, or Retina TVs, have any real world purpose?

In what scenario is 1080p not good enough from 10 feet away?

You use your Cinema Display from 10' away?
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post #60 of 136
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Originally Posted by Brunzilla View Post

Ohhh... Apple 4k TV???? I want!

Where are you going to get 4K content?
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post #61 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by owen35 View Post

And so affordable too.  Let me dig around my bank account for another $60 to buy a cable that attaches to my $400 500 gig hard drive.

Why would you plug in a single HDD into TB? What benefit would that afford?

How about you buy an Apple Thunderbolt Display and plug via USB the RAIDed Time Machine backup into the back of the display, along with all other connections you may have. How can USB3.0 compete with that?

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post #62 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Where you going to get 4K content?

I have a 27" iMac. Where do I get 2560x1440 content or is that display a waste?
I have an iPad 3. Where do I get 2048x1536 content or is that display a waste?
I have and iPhone 5. Where do I get 1136x640 content or is that display a waste?

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post #63 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Why would you plug in a single HDD into TB? What benefit would that afford?

How about you buy an Apple Thunderbolt Display and plug via USB the RAIDed Time Machine backup into the back of the display, along with all other connections you may have. How can USB3.0 compete with that?

He does have a point about the cables being a rip off. That only adds to the chances of this standard not being more broadly used.
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post #64 of 136
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post
Where you going to get 4K content?

 

"Hey, Ted, nobody has 4K TVs; why should we waste our time making content for 'em?"

"You're right, Bill."

 

"I'd buy a 4K TV, but there's no content for it."
"How do you imagine they judge willingness to create content? It's just like getting rid of Flash."
"But… no content!"

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post #65 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I have a 27" iMac. Where do I get 2560x1440 content or is that display a waste?
I have an iPad 3. Where do I get 2048x1536 content or is that display a waste?

He wants a 4K TV. That's a different matter altogether.
Quote:
I have and iPhone 5. Where do I get 1136x640 content or is that display a waste?

What the hell are you talking about? 640p?
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post #66 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Is there anyone besides the manufacturers who believe that Retina Cinema Displays, or Retina TVs, have any real world purpose?

In what scenario is 1080p not good enough from 10 feet away?

I don't know what the consumer requirement for retina or 4K displays are -- but in the video editing and publishing industry 4K is becoming the norm.

Here's a video preso by Michael Cioni:

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/news/732-michael-cioni-talks-4k-workflow-and-fcp-proxies-for-the-girl-with-the-dragon-tattoo

It discusses shooting, editing and distributing the movie "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo".

It is a fun and informative view!

At about 7 minutes in, Michael discusses how the video was shot in 5K and 4K, then edited and distributed entirely in 4K.

Later, Michael discusses the fact that 5K/4K provides advantages never before possible with digital editing:
-- they can subsample a smaller portion of the video for actual use
-- they can separately edit an actor's performance in one take and stitch it together with another actor from a different take
-- they can make videos with 5K/4K that aren't otherwise possible.


Anyway, it makes the case for this newer/higher-definition content... A very informative and enjoyable 30 minutes.
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post #67 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Why would you plug in a single HDD into TB? What benefit would that afford?

Exactly. And conversely, as soon as you make a RAID0 out of 2 HDs, watch USB3 go crying home to mama.

post #68 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


You wrote, "The rapid adoption of DVI was because it filled a need for the gaming community. They wanted a faster video throughput. The same environment does not exist for TB."

really? You brought up DVI...so i explained it to you. Do the same conditions that lead to the DVI adoption exist now for Macs? Can you switch video cards from a DB9 video card to a DVI video card on a Mac to get better FPS for the newest games that were flooding the market at the TIME when the DVI was released?

Are there TB video cards for Macs that will connect to a TB monitor? When was the last time you switched video cards on your Mac to gain better video throughput? 

You brought up DVI and TB together and compared them.....I never did....til now to show you...they are not the same and are not used the same way.

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post #69 of 136

4K TVs will be successful just because 3D was something of a flop and now the TV makers need a new reason to make us upgrade.

post #70 of 136
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Originally Posted by ascii View Post

4K TVs will be successful just because 3D was something of a flop and now the TV makers need a new reason to make us upgrade.

4K TVs be successful because 3D was a flop, or, 4K TVs will be a flop because 3D was a flop?
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post #71 of 136
This probably means that the new Mac Pro won't be released until the fall. If rumors about the Mac Pro not being internally upgradable are true it will have to rely on external components such as hard drives.
post #72 of 136
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post
4K TVs be successful because 3D was a flop? Or, 4K TV will be a flop because 3D was a flop?

 

4K will be successful because it isn't a gimmick. It's yet another meaningful improvement in experience.

 

Do you need glasses to view 4K? That in itself secures it as a success.

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post #73 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

He does have a point about the cables being a rip off. That only adds to the chances of this standard not being more broadly used.

1) They are more expensive than other cables and adapters, but they are a rip off? You do realize the cables are chipped, right? If you are just going to plug in a 2.5" HDD it's not Intel or Apple's fault if you foolishly buy a TB drive when a USB drive would be just as fast.

2) Here's mono price with adapters and cables that will plug into your TB port and output video to various display signaling. Not unreasonable prices, but certainly higher than other options on their site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

He wants a 4K TV. That's a different matter altogether.
What the hell are you talking about?

1) You're like the guy at HP who turned down Wozniak's idea for a personal computer because he couldn't see the bigger picture. The TV is just a monitor. The Apple TV is just an iPod for your living room. In other words, it's a computer. I would love to have a 70" 4K in my living room with Apple TV apps to use.

2) Surely you realize that people buy 1080p TVs to use with their crappy cable company's 720p content and upscaled DVDs. Why aren't they just buying 720p TVs since they aren't getting 1080p content. If you want there to be millions of movies and TV shows on some mythical Blu-ray Xtreme format before there are any monitors that can support it then you're doing it backwards.

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post #74 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

This probably means that the new Mac Pro won't be released until the fall. If rumors about the Mac Pro not being internally upgradable are true it will have to rely on external components such as hard drives.

Where did you hear those rumors? I highly doubt that.
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post #75 of 136
Code:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

4K will be successful because it isn't a gimmick. It's yet another meaningful improvement in experience.

Do you need glasses to view 4K? That in itself secures it as a success.

If the content and the hardware cost the same and 4K content was widely available I'd agree with you, but neither of those things will be true for 10 years or so.
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post #76 of 136

From CNet

 

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57587367-37/apples-new-mac-pro-said-to-ditch-expansions-arrive-this-fall/?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


Where did you hear those rumors? I highly doubt that.
post #77 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

really? You brought up DVI...so i explained it to you. Do the same conditions that lead to the DVI adoption exist now for Macs? Can you switch video cards from a DB9 video card to a DVI video card on a Mac to get better FPS for the newest games that were flooding the market at the TIME when the DVI was released?
Are there TB video cards for Macs that will connect to a TB monitor? When was the last time you switched video cards on your Mac to gain better video throughput? 
You brought up DVI and TB together and compared them.....I never did....til now to show you...they are not the same and are not used the same way.

1) I brought up various uses for the TB port which you continually want to deny are viable. Are you forgetting that TB is protocol independent? This is a great technology for anything other than pedestrian use.

2) I may have brought it up first (no idea) but as I've shown you also brought it up, which you denied doing.

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post #78 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

You're like the guy at HP who turned down Wozniak's idea for a personal computer because he couldn't see the bigger picture.

WTF?
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post #79 of 136

Not being expandable and not being internally upgradable are two different things. And "CNET News" is an oxymoron.
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post #80 of 136

Not being expandable and not being internally upgradable are two different things. And "CNET News" is an oxymoron.
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