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Intel makes 'Thunderbolt 2' official with 20Gbps speeds, late 2013 launch - Page 3

post #81 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


1) I brought up various uses for the TB port which you continually want to deny are viable. Are you forgetting that TB is protocol independent? This is a great technology for anything other than pedestrian use.

2) I may have brought it up first (no idea) but as I've shown you also brought it up, which you denied doing.

no...i don't deny any of the highlighted above...you have mis understood my comments from the start......

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post #82 of 136

It's interesting to note that the aggregate bandwidth is no different, it was 2x10 now it's 1x20, both directions. 

post #83 of 136
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post
WTF?
 

I agree with you here; it's not nearly that powerful an industry-changer. But it WILL be successful, and sooner than you'd imagine. Heck, than I'd imagine (which is as soon as you'd imagine, but just from the perspective of someone who thinks it'll succeed lol.gif).

post #84 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Where you going to get 4K content?

I have a 27" iMac. Where do I get 2560x1440 content or is that display a waste?
I have an iPad 3. Where do I get 2048x1536 content or is that display a waste?
I have and iPhone 5. Where do I get 1136x640 content or is that display a waste?

Yeah...

I have similar devices.

It kind of galls that when I AirPlay from my iPad 4 (2048x1536) -- I have to downscale it to 1080P for my iMac or HDTV.


BTW, here's a chart from the Michael Cioni preso link in my prior post -- It shows 4K Data Rates in GigaBYTES per second:


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post #85 of 136
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post
BTW, here's a chart from the Michael Cioni preso link in my prior post -- It shows 4K Data Rates in GigaBYTES per second:

 

That's probably uncompressed, yeah? 

post #86 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


Not being expandable and not being internally upgradable are two different things. And "CNET News" is an oxymoron.

 

Well, you know everything. Congratulations!

post #87 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

4K TVs will be successful just because 3D was something of a flop and now the TV makers need a new reason to make us upgrade.

"Content is King" -- Didn't John Phillip Sousa compose a march about that? 1wink.gif

What will drive the sales of 4K TVs are:
  • Sports
  • Movies
  • Games
  • Social (Personal Video, Photos)
  • Business and Military (Collaboration, Presentations, Super Hi-Def video imagery, etc.)
  • Virtual Reality


Some leaders in the video industry think that Broadcast TV will not be a major industry by the end of this decade.
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post #88 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

WTF?

I have no idea what part you object to or don't understand. You clearly stated that there is no 4K content without considering what a TV is how the devices connected to it have have changed and are changing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


1) When I convert 11.6Gb/s I get 1.45GB/s.

2) I hope your image doesn't make people think that 2 hour iTunes movies will need to be 8 terabytes.

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post #89 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Is there anyone besides the manufacturers who believe that Retina Cinema Displays, or Retina TVs, have any real world purpose?

 

In what scenario is 1080p not good enough from 10 feet away?

 

If Apple is going to release an Apple TV set, then perhaps a 4K Cinema Display would be the logical start in order to test production. 

post #90 of 136
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post
…a 4K Cinema Display…

 

 

But… unless they magically release card GPUs with Thunderbolt, I'll never be able to get one…

post #91 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

WTF?

I have no idea what part you object to or don't understand. You clearly stated that there is no 4K content without considering what a TV is how the devices connected to it have have changed and are changing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


1) When I convert 11.6Gb/s I get 1.45GB/s.

2) I hope your image doesn't make people think that 2 hour iTunes movies will need to be 8 terabytes.


The slide/figures are Micharl Cioni's -- they are using 10-bit log files (not 8-bit) so that may account for math discrepancy.

Where did you get the "11.6Gb/s" for your conversion?

I believe this chart refers to the original 5K/4K camera source data. This is converted to ProRes (several variants) for editing, then the the edit output is conformed with the original source data.

Watch the video -- it discusses the entire process.


When they have the final video conformed, they make copies for distribution (Theater, Academy, Cable, BluRay, DVD, etc) at various resolutions from 4K (Theater) down to 720P (DVD)...

So, no, your iTunes Movie won't be 8 Terabytes:




Finally, the movie was shot and processed [mostly] in Sweden and the UK... Lower Resolution Dailies were sent to Hollywood as iTunes Podcasts -- Higher resolution copies were sent (more slowly) using traditional methods.
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post #92 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

Backwards compatible...for all of those thousands of thunderbolt devices that are out there.

/sarcasm

Welcome to the cutting edge of innovation!
Population: the early adopters
Expect whining from mainstream users

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post #93 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

The slide/figures are Micharl Cioni's -- they are using 10-bit log files (not 8-bit) so that may account for math discrepancy.

Where did you get the "11.6Gb/s" for your conversion?

I am certain I read it yesterday as a reason for TB2 to break the 10Gb/s barrier. However, I can't find the source so for all intents and purposes we should assume I'm mistaken.
Quote:
So, no, your iTunes Movie won't be 8 Terabytes

At most a frame would only be 4x as high as it currently, but the codec should make it much, much lower. And then once H.265 is available we'll see that cut in half.

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post #94 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

If Apple is going to release an Apple TV set, then perhaps a 4K Cinema Display would be the logical start in order to test production. 

Seems like a fair bet, but I do wonder if they'll release such a display this year when so few Macs could use it or wait until there are a lot more on the market that will support 4K, which means TB2 and Haswell.

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post #95 of 136
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post
And then once H.265 is available we'll see that cut in half.

 

Delicious H.265… do you think there will be any mention of it and a new iTunes at WWDC? Or at the iDevice event this fall?

post #96 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Delicious H.265… do you think there will be any mention of it and a new iTunes at WWDC? Or at the iDevice event this fall?

I hope so yet I see nothing that makes me think it will be announced next week.

Note that the Samsung Galaxy S4 already supports it. I have no idea how effective it is but they can certainly check that box on the spec sheet.

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post #97 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

Well, you know everything. Congratulations!

LOL
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #98 of 136
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post
Note that the Samsung Galaxy S4 already supports it. I have no idea how effective it is but they can certainly check that box on the spec sheet.

 

I guess 12 frames per second counts as "support". 1tongue.gif

post #99 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

That's just foolish… The last thing Thunderbolt needs is idiotic, confusing standard changes like USB: the "universal" bus with six different connectors. What, I suppose there will be a "Thunderbolt 2.5" eventually that does 20 both ways simultaneously, and then a Thunderbolt 3 that does 40Gbps one way… 


Thanks, though.

 

Then you will agree that Apple's variations on existing connectors are equally "idiotic" and "confusing"?

 

Mini VGA

Mini DVI

Micro DVI

Mini Displayport

post #100 of 136
WOT...

OK, maybe, just a little WWDC foreplay...


I happened to glance at a cable news program covering the building collapse in Philadelphia...

What caught my eye was a rather jerky [manual] low resolution (jagged) zoom-in shot...

I was able to determine the location, and went to work with Apple Maps on my iPad:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaAVLQcpNwA


It's kinda' weird, but this is the second time this week that I have used 3D Flyover on Apple Maps to supplement information provided on a TV Show. The other show was "Extreme Homes" which showed a home in West Hollywood that had been rebuilt -- gutted except for the exterior shell. The shell was painted solid black... Using 3D Flyover, starting at the Hollywood Sign (shown in the TV Show), I was quickly able to locate the house at 6158 Mulholland Hwy.
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 6/5/13 at 11:29am
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post #101 of 136
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
Then you will agree that Apple's variations on existing connectors are equally "idiotic" and "confusing"?

 

Nope, because that's a completely different argument. Please try again.

post #102 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Nope, because that's a completely different argument. Please try again.

 

I see.  So it's ok for Apple to create variations of existing connectors.  But when anybody else does it, it's "idiotic" and "confusing".  Thanks.

post #103 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

Then you will agree that Apple's variations on existing connectors are equally "idiotic" and "confusing"?

Mini VGA
Mini DVI
Micro DVI
Mini Displayport

1) How do those single, miniaturization options for an external display equal the same situation as found in USB?

2) The only one I'd take issue with is making mini-DVI which was just slightly too thick for the original MBA so they used micro-DVI. This is much like those god awful micro and mini-USB standards. Micro-HDMI is not a problem since it has a clear path of usage on certain portables.

3) Note that micro-DVI was only used in that one Mac or that one generation. In 2008 with the 2nd gen MBA Apple had designed, built, licensed free of charge, and had adopted into VESA's DisplayPort standard miniDisplayPort. We've had that port on Macs for 5 years as standard. You call that idiotic and confusing? 1hmm.gif
Edited by SolipsismX - 6/5/13 at 10:22am

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post #104 of 136
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
I see.  So it's ok for Apple to create variations of existing connectors.  But when anybody else does it, it's "idiotic" and "confusing".  Thanks.

 

Enjoy pretending you're talking about anything that I was talking about. I'm not dealing with you anymore.

post #105 of 136

Who has enough money to buy a 4K Display or Camcorder... these days the standard HD resolution is 1920x1080 and goes all the way up to the Macbook Pro retina display dimensions... Unless you're a filthy rich movie director not many people will need this due to the fact that content is not being created at those dimensions. Heck websites still follow the 1024 x768 rule, and if they don't they're dynamic for bigger displays but not at the 4K resolution.

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post #106 of 136
Originally Posted by darkdefender View Post
…due to the fact that content is not being created at those dimensions.

 

We've already covered that argument.

post #107 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Previous reported said it was doubling to 20Gb/s in each direction. And it does, but unlike TB1 it's aggregate isn't double the unidirectional capacity any longer.

Yep - it was 40Gbps aggregate throughput all along.
post #108 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

We've already covered that argument.

Regarding his "created' comment, in another thread we did cover that content is and has been created using 4K cameras for some time now. What's not being done is released 4K on some Blu-ray Xtreme format.

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post #109 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by runbuh View Post

Yep - it was 40Gbps aggregate throughput all along.

The most recent reports say the total is 20Gb/s.

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post #110 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

No… Because Thunderbolt is 10Gbps each way right now. And this is 20Gbps each way… 1oyvey.gif

Add in the two channels of the current TB chips and you get 40Gbps in the aggregate. The Falcon Ridge chipset has not changed that, except that it can combine those two channels into one pipe.
post #111 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

The most recent reports say the total is 20Gb/s.

In one direction. The old chipset was, and the new chipset is, full duplex. 40Gbps in the aggregate.
post #112 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

Backwards compatible...for all of those thousands of thunderbolt devices that are out there. /sarcasm

Some devices are expensive such as the $1000 Pegasus drives. I expect future revisions will still be able to be backwards compatible using an adaptor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil 
No… Because Thunderbolt is 10Gbps each way right now. And this is 20Gbps each way

The current one is 2 x 10Gbps each way, now it's 1 x 20Gbps each way. They just aren't distinguishing display and data channels so it means that if you don't have a display attached, say just a Pegasus, it means 10Gbps won't be left unused. If you have a display and a Pegasus attached to the same port, it will probably still be a bit faster for data as the display might not use a full 10Gbps but closer to the current version in speed.

Essentially, it treats the video like another data stream rather than reserving 10Gbps for it, which it really should have done in the first place. Maybe they wanted to ensure that display bandwidth was prioritised over data so that a drive couldn't make the display lag or something. It likely wouldn't happen in practise anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feynman 
Now we know when the new MacPro will be out.

Possibly, Falcon Ridge wasn't due until next year but it depends which way they go and the more important factor is the Xeon chips. I suspect the Intel spec will maintain the requirement for Displayport, which makes it difficult in machines with dedicated GPUs. Desktops/laptops have integrated GPUs in the CPUs so they have been using software (Lucid on PCs) to copy the framebuffers from the dedicated GPUs into the IGP and output them over Thunderbolt. Workstation chips typically don't have these IGPs.

Intel could perhaps put an IGP into some models of the Ivy Bridge E5 Xeon chips like they did for Ivy Bridge E3 chips. This would allow them to put PCI slots in along with Thunderbolt as well as save power. But, this means that GPUs can have direct outputs so the OS has to figure out how to route the video and that seems like it would be messy.

My personal preference with the Pro would be for them to go small form factor, use MXM GPUs (which have Tesla, Firepro and Quadro options and they can clock them higher in the Pro) as they don't have direct outputs. Then they'd have an IGP in a single CPU, which connects to 4 external Thunderbolt ports, each 20Gbps. People could still upgrade the GPUs but all IO expansion would be Thunderbolt-based. For special use cases, there would be the option of a chassis for cards:



Small form factor also means it's more suitable for server use too.
post #113 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by runbuh View Post

In one direction. The old chipset was, and the new chipset is, full duplex. 40Gbps in the aggregate.

Where are you seeing that? I'm seeing that it was 10Gb/s unidirectional and now it's 20Gb/s bidirectional.

edit: I see what you're talking about now. From Marvin's post above. "The current one is 2 x 10Gbps each way, now it's 1 x 20Gbps each way. They just aren't distinguishing display and data channels so it means that if you don't have a display attached, say just a Pegasus, it means 10Gbps won't be left unused. If you have a display and a Pegasus attached to the same port, it will probably still be a bit faster for data as the display might not use a full 10Gbps but closer to the current version in speed."
Edited by SolipsismX - 6/5/13 at 12:14pm

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post #114 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post


Welcome to the cutting edge of innovation!
Population: the early adopters
Expect whining from mainstream users

 

Not exactly.  If the boxes that are just shipping now can only claim to be compatible with, but can't run at the new version's speed, they look like doubly bad deals already with this announcement.  Late 2013 for Thunderbolt 2?  That makes these expensive version 1 hubs we've been waiting look even sillier at the price.

 

Maybe the best thing that comes out of this announcement of V2 being on the horizon is that the V1 hubs might have to shed some price.  Or is Belkin just going to announce a $550 V2 hub?

post #115 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlandd View Post

Not exactly.  If the boxes that are just shipping now can only claim to be compatible with, but can't run at the new version's speed, they look like doubly bad deals already with this announcement.  Late 2013 for Thunderbolt 2?  That makes these expensive version 1 hubs we've been waiting look even sillier at the price.

Maybe the best thing that comes out of this announcement of V2 being on the horizon is that the V1 hubs might have to shed some price.  Or is Belkin just going to announce a $550 V2 hub?

That sucks. I assumed that V2 device would still be able to work with V1 peripherals, as this how such tech usually gets some backwards compatibility.

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post #116 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Where are you seeing that? I'm seeing that it was 10Gb/s unidirectional and now it's 20Gb/s bidirectional.

edit: I see what you're talking about now. From Marvin's post above. "The current one is 2 x 10Gbps each way, now it's 1 x 20Gbps each way. They just aren't distinguishing display and data channels so it means that if you don't have a display attached, say just a Pegasus, it means 10Gbps won't be left unused. If you have a display and a Pegasus attached to the same port, it will probably still be a bit faster for data as the display might not use a full 10Gbps but closer to the current version in speed."

You can read about the old (current) via the link below, top of page 2, Protocol Architecture. The doc is from Feb 2011.

http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/technology-brief/thunderbolt-technology-brief.pdf
post #117 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


That sucks. I assumed that V2 device would still be able to work with V1 peripherals, as this how such tech usually gets some backwards compatibility.

I wasn't speaking from knowledge, just speculating that because it's sounding to me like "backward compatibility" is meaning it will work but I'm not seeing it stated that a V1 box will run at V2 spec.   Seems like the layout the stream in V2 would require a similarly differently configured path for a device to take advantage of the improvement.  No?  :  )

 

Might have missed something in all the noise, though.  :  )

post #118 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

That sucks. I assumed that V2 device would still be able to work with V1 peripherals, as this how such tech usually gets some backwards compatibility.

They will work but they might be stuck at 10Gbps due to the controllers in the peripherals. Forwards compatibility is important too so hopefully V1 devices will support V2 peripherals - those will definitely be limited to 10Gbps though.
post #119 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

I am waiting for comments here. Pretty sure people will have interesting stuff to add. (And yeah, I'm commenting here mainly so that the AppleInsider reminder-emai reminds me there is that article when comments get added 1tongue.gif ).
I don't gett the emails from apple insider anymore for some reason
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Don't expect T2 in the new Mac Pro. I suspect it'll be released before T2 is out.
I figue the Mac Pro will feature the first, (maybe the second) this is just an addition of how the Mac Pro price does not vary much that it featuring nothing but flash (at least in some models) would be great.
post #120 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Shh… The DOJ might claim they are conspiring.

 

Shh... The DOJ has no sense of humor.

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