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Apple reportedly latest company to join US government's PRISM data mining program [ux2] - Page 2

post #41 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericblr View Post

Yes, Bush and his "Patriot act" was a disaster, but then again so was Clinton's "carnivore" email spying program.  The government has been utilizing the latest technology to spy on people for a long time.  It's not exclusive to either party.

Obama OK'd the renewal of the Patriot Act. Everything under Bush that was bad and wrong has gotten more bad and wrong under Obama's terms.

In fact, all of these horrible practices suggest the war against terrorists has become a war against the American people.

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post #42 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by japm View Post

Apple's 
privacy policy
 states clearly


James R. Clapper the Director of National Intelligence says:


Who watches the Watchmen?

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post #43 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


Who watches the Watchmen?
 

 

Yep, its getting scary isn't it?


Edited by ericblr - 6/6/13 at 8:30pm
post #44 of 130

This reminds me of the vehement denial of Verizon and others about giving out phone records to the NSA.

They explicitly said, they don't do it and NOW we found out that they DO and did.

 

It has now even been confirmed by the White House

 

 

 

This is what they said back then...

Quote:
May 17, 2006
Verizon Communications said Tuesday that it did not turn over phone records to the National Security Agency (NSA), nor was it asked to do so, as was reported [USA Today report; JURIST report] last week.

 

They flat out lied because it's really bad for business.


Edited by japm - 6/6/13 at 8:17pm
post #45 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa View Post

Apple denying means nothing, because so called national security letters make it illegal to even acknowledge the receipts thereof.

Thus Apple saying they participate would likely be illegal itself, and how would they know about such a program unless they were participating, so again they'd have to deny not to incriminate themselves.

China, soviet Russia, and the US as well as increasingly so the EU countries use more or less the same Gestapo tactics to "protect" their citizens from being free (which also means being responsible and vulnerable)

Ever wonder where that huge push for social networks and cloud computing really originates from?

Categorically untrue. Stop making stuff up. Shameless or clueless.

post #46 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


So two people who are not named but "with knowledge of some aspects of the program" are proof that Apple is lying? How do you know these two people are telling the truth? Why don't you think it's suspicious that Google, Facebook, and Yahoo are also on the list but deny involvement?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

I think it could be that they ALL are going to deny involvement. No company wants to be associated with secret Internet data mining involving the government.

No company wants to make false public statements either. I am sure there is more to this. But the public statements made by all these companies should be taken at their face value. After all, they had the option of making no comments. The only question is whether they have cleverly disguised the mechanism of "cooperation" in their wording.

post #47 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post
This crap was expanded after 9/11 when a moron was in the White House.

 

Yep, let's attempt to deflect all attention away from the current moron in the White House, and let's somehow find a way to blame everything that happens on past events and past people instead. Nothing is the current moron's fault. Is the current moron not over the age of 18 and not legally responsible for their own actions or something? And just FYI, the current moron is far more moronic than Bush ever was. Even when the current moron does something in 2013, that is somehow Bush's fault, according to certain deluded and ignorant people.lol.gif

 

Most transparent administration indeed. What a bunch of crooks, liars and thugs. You can't trust a single word coming out of the current admin. There is a huge web of lies that is growing ever bigger each and every day.  lol.gif

 

I'd love to see them get indicted and then get what they deserve. That is justice and the American way. 1smoking.gif

post #48 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

 

Yep, let's attempt to deflect all attention away from the current moron in the White House, and let's somehow find a way to blame everything that happens on past events and past people instead. Nothing is the current moron's fault. Is the current moron not over the age of 18 and not legally responsible for their own actions or something? And just FYI, the current moron is far more moronic than Bush ever was. Even when the current moron does something in 2013, that is somehow Bush's fault, according to certain deluded and ignorant people.lol.gif

 

Most transparent administration indeed. What a bunch of crooks, liars and thugs. You can't trust a single word coming out of the current admin. There is a huge web of lies that is growing ever bigger each and every day.  lol.gif

 

I'd love to see them get indicted and then get what they deserve. That is justice and the American way. 1smoking.gif

 

 

The problem isn't the politicians in office, it's the people who voted them in.

post #49 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

No company wants to make false public statements either. I am sure there is more to this. But the public statements made by all these companies should be taken at their face value. After all, they had the option of making no comments. The only question is whether they have cleverly disguised the mechanism of "cooperation" in their wording.

It really worries me to see someone so eager to believe corporate propaganda.
post #50 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

 

No company wants to make false public statements either. I am sure there is more to this.

 

You can't be serious. Just read post #44

 

http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/157900/apple-reportedly-latest-company-to-join-us-governments-prism-data-mining-program-ux2/40#post_2340344

post #51 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

No company wants to make false public statements either. I am sure there is more to this. But the public statements made by all these companies should be taken at their face value. After all, they had the option of making no comments. The only question is whether they have cleverly disguised the mechanism of "cooperation" in their wording.

As I keep saying, THE LAW was written to punish anyone revealing anything about their being compelled by government to comply. They literally had/have no choice in this matter. Do it or face an uncertain future. Worse than the Mafia.

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post #52 of 130
I remember a story on the NSA/FBI etc needing to wait 6 weeks or something for Apple to access a users data from their account/messages/texts etc. So they aren't providing direct access to the government.
I don't think this is true. I'm sure some information is shared, but not to the extent that this story makes it out to be.
post #53 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Yep, let's attempt to deflect all attention away from the current moron in the White House, and let's somehow find a way to blame everything that happens on past events and past people instead. Nothing is the current moron's fault. Is the current moron not over the age of 18 and not legally responsible for their own actions or something? And just FYI, the current moron is far more moronic than Bush ever was. Even when the current moron does something in 2013, that is somehow Bush's fault, according to certain deluded and ignorant people.lol.gif

Most transparent administration indeed. What a bunch of crooks, liars and thugs. You can't trust a single word coming out of the current admin. There is a huge web of lies that is growing ever bigger each and every day.  lol.gif

I'd love to see them get indicted and then get what they deserve. That is justice and the American way. 1smoking.gif

I'm Canadian, so I'm pretty neutral on the whole president thing, but I'm sorry. Bush was pretty terrible. Every president has their problems, and Barack is not that great either, but you have to admit that Bush was pretty dumb. He was completely clueless most of the time.
I feel like the quality of presidents continues to decline for you Americans. Clinton was pretty smart, made mistakes, sure, but is a smart man. (Not that Canada's gov is much better)
post #54 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timbit View Post

I'm Canadian, so I'm pretty neutral on the whole president thing, but I'm sorry. Bush was pretty terrible. Every president has their problems, and Barack is not that great either, but you have to admit that Bush was pretty dumb. He was completely clueless most of the time.
I feel like the quality of presidents continues to decline for you Americans. Clinton was pretty smart, made mistakes, sure, but is a smart man. (Not that Canada's gov is much better)

The biggest problem with political leaders is this: The only leader who can be trusted is the person who least wants the job.

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post #55 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timbit View Post


I'm Canadian, so I'm pretty neutral on the whole president thing, but I'm sorry. Bush was pretty terrible. Every president has their problems, and Barack is not that great either, but you have to admit that Bush was pretty dumb. He was completely clueless most of the time.
I feel like the quality of presidents continues to decline for you Americans. Clinton was pretty smart, made mistakes, sure, but is a smart man. (Not that Canada's gov is much better)

Nope, sorry, I don't agree with that.

 

I'm certainly not claiming that Bush was a super genius, but Obama is not one bit smarter. I'm aware that the majority of media outlets have been censoring and not reporting on Obama's endless gaffes, so people who aren't informed (the average person) are not even aware of them, but they do exist. There are many of them.  

post #56 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

**** Obama.

This is what happens when you have a lawyer run your country.

 

 

You're right, Obama is a lawyer.

 

So was Lincoln, Jackson, Hayes, Johnson, Nixon, Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt, Clinton, Taft, Ford, i'm sure I'm missing some.

 

Wilson had a Ph.D. from Johns Hopkins.. 

 

Oh, I forgot.  "Smart people are dumb".

 

*shakes head*

 

Well, except for GWB.  He graduated from Harvard School of Business, and look where that got us, am I right fellas  :)

post #57 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


Obama OK'd the renewal of the Patriot Act. Everything under Bush that was bad and wrong has gotten more bad and wrong under Obama's terms.

In fact, all of these horrible practices suggest the war against terrorists has become a war against the American people.

 

Agreed and agreed.

post #58 of 130

I strongly disapprove of most instances where governments argue that important matters should be secret and information about them kept from the public.

 

Surely the absolute heart of democracy is the public being able to choose who should govern.  Such choice should by necessity be informed-choice.  If governments keep secret, matters which the voting public might wish to know about in order to make an informed-choice through elections, they are undermining the core concept of democracy.

 

Let's hope the article is mistaken about Apple's involvement.

post #59 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


Obama OK'd the renewal of the Patriot Act. Everything under Bush that was bad and wrong has gotten more bad and wrong under Obama's terms.

In fact, all of these horrible practices suggest the war against terrorists has become a war against the American people.

Your gramma has gotten much worserer too.

Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

 

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete...

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Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

 

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete...

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post #60 of 130

So to sum up:

 

There'll be a lot of indignant ranting for about two more days then everyone will do precisely nothing.

 

That's how it works, yes?

post #61 of 130

YES Rayz,

 

that's exactly what happen in 2006 (people just forgot):

 

 

 
Quote:
May 2006: The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth...

 

post #62 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericblr View Post

The problem isn't the politicians in office, it's the people who voted them in.

 

The problem is the two party system and the winner-take-all approach to representation, gerrymandering election district boundaries, etc.

 

When the option is to cast a vote between bad and worse, how do you expect to get even halfway decent politicians in power?

 

The "choice" we have is like going to a restaurant and getting the "choice" of french fries and onion rings, when what we're looking for are healthy vegetables and a fresh salad.

post #63 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by japm View Post

 

What agenda? Are you watching the news?

 

PRISM has been confirmed by many many sources inside congress and government in general.

Those companies DO provide back door access for the NSA and they DO have agreements for that, which makes their statements LIES.

 

Pay attention to the wording-   Apple has never heard of PRISM (the government did not name it PRISM in their NSA letter to Apple telling them to comply), Apple does not give the government direct access to their servers (apple has a subsidiary somewhere with a computer that does have access to their servers-  the NSA has direct access to *that* computer)

 

Apple is telling the truth.

 

And relax, this isn't an 'Apple' issue.  But tinfoil hats are fun and Apple does have the best juiciest tracking of their users for the NSA sooooo....  Is Apple's IDFA (ID For Advertisers-the user ID on each phone, claimed to be for advertisers, but which Apple does not allow users to turn off) *really* a user ID for advertisers to use, or is it really the IDFNSA.....

post #64 of 130

This is a Law/Government issue, but I'm just so extremely disappointed that Apple so blatantly lied about this, exactly like Verizon did back in 2006.

They could have just said, no comment - but they made an explicit untrue statement to avoid bad PR.

 

This has destroyed every bid of trust that I ever had in Apple.

 

Doing it voluntarily is one thing, but then lying about it is another.

post #65 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by japm View Post

This is a Law/Government issue, but I'm just so extremely disappointed that Apple so blatantly lied about this, exactly like Verizon did back in 2006.

They could have just said, no comment - but they made an explicit untrue statement to avoid bad PR.

 

This has destroyed every bid of trust that I ever had in Apple.

 

Doing it voluntarily is one thing, but then lying about it is another.

 

Nobody is doing anything voluntarily, because it costs them mega bucks to comply with these information requests.

Lying is all the can do, because by law they are required to deny any knowledge and are not allowed to warn the victims of a spy attack that they are targeted.

Simple silence is always interpreted as "tacit agreement", or as the old Romans said: "Qui tacit consentire videtur", thus a dementi is the only thing they can plausibly do within the legal framework.

 

The idiocy is that the American public is fine with this and has been assuaged with plenty of flag waving, invoking of patriotism (even in the blatantly misnamed "Patriot Act"), military posturing, we-re-under-attack-rhetoric, and lots of propaganda on rightwing TV, such that anyone criticizing the Bush-Cheney policies (happily continued by Obama) is considered a potential terrorist, aka "either you're with us, or you're with them".

 

9/11 was the biggest catastrophe, but not because of the people who perished (many more die each ear of drunk driving and nobody gives a damn), but because it delivered a pretext under which this country has been transformed into something that resembles the government apparatus to spy on the population like that employed by eastern block countries before the collapse of the iron curtain.

 

I guess, just like the Germans after WWII helped the US build the rockets for the moon landing, so the Russians after the cold war helped the US build a good surveillance apparatus. 

 

Anyway, no need to be alarmed: the same companies that claim no knowledge are heavily involved with helping the Chinese to build their "Great Firewall" and rat out dissidents to the regime when it translates into $$$.

post #66 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post

Pay attention to the wording-   Apple has never heard of PRISM (the government did not name it PRISM in their NSA letter to Apple telling them to comply), Apple does not give the government direct access to their servers (apple has a subsidiary somewhere with a computer that does have access to their servers-  the NSA has direct access to *that* computer)

Is Apple's IDFA (ID For Advertisers-the user ID on each phone, claimed to be for advertisers, but which Apple does not allow users to turn off) *really* a user ID for advertisers to use, or is it really the IDFNSA.....

Yeah it is kinda "conspiracy theory" territory, but the timing of Apple's change to a new user tracking system, IDFA, helps feed the 'hatter's. Interesting. . .

Anyway,no one should be shocked that companies involved in any way with internet communications would be feeding into the government's monitoring programs by law or executive order. I'm not at all surprised.

EDIT: In response to the wide outrage over this and similar programs the White House declassified some details:
Among the previously classified information about the phone records collection that Clapper revealed:

"—The program is conducted under authority granted by Congress and is authorized by the Foreign intelligence Surveillance Court which determines the legality of the program.

—The government is prohibited from "indiscriminately sifting" through the data acquired. It can only be reviewed "when there is a reasonable suspicion, based on specific facts, that the particular basis for the query is associated with a foreign terrorist organization." He also said only counterterrorism personnel trained in the program may access the records.

—The information acquired is overseen by the Justice Department and the FISA court. Only a very small fraction of the records are ever reviewed, he said.

—The program is reviewed every 90 days.

The Obama administration's defense of the two programs came as members of Congress were vowing to change a program they voted to authorize and exasperated civil liberties advocates were crying foul, questioning how President Barack Obama, a former constitutional scholar who sought privacy protections as a U.S. senator, could embrace policies aligned with President George W. Bush, whose approach to national security he had vowed to leave behind."
Edited by Gatorguy - 6/7/13 at 6:16am
melior diabolus quem scies
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post #67 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post
 
Something that has absolutely nothing to do with what is reported by the Post or the Guardian, but still is mentioned on the slides they have published. Sounds like they had some delusional deep throat at work here.

 

A secret government spying project - Of course it'll have a public-facing website!  Good job you're not working for the Post...  What makes you think this has anything to do with aviation other than a three letter acronym that could stand for anything?

post #68 of 130

Costing only $20M per year? This is cheap!

 

My company's licensing of some software packages costs most than $40M per year. The overall operational cost will double that.
 

post #69 of 130
These toads insist that all this government snooping is critical to the fight against terrorism. Except that they seem to spend more time and resources harassing their political opposition rather than fighting terrorists. Check those phone records to see who is being called by Republican fundraisers? You got it, Boss! Find out who the whistle blowers are? Right away! Check out who is posting anti-tax comments on the Internet? Sic the IRS, INS, FBI, NSA, BATF, and everybody else on them right now! Some Moslem is looking for guns to shoot up an Army post? Meh.
post #70 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

Your gramma has gotten much worserer too.

That was a deliberate word choice. Ever hear of "artistic license"?

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post #71 of 130
Originally Posted by japm View Post
It's official, Apple LIED - they ARE participating  in PRISM.

 

It's official: you have absolutely no proof whatsoever.

 

Originally Posted by ericblr View Post
The problem isn't the politicians in office, it's the people who voted them in.

 

No, that's completely wrong.


Originally Posted by japm View Post
This is a Law/Government issue, but I'm just so extremely disappointed that Apple so blatantly lied about this, exactly like Verizon did back in 2006.

They could have just said, no comment - but they made an explicit untrue statement to avoid bad PR.

 

This has destroyed every bid of trust that I ever had in Apple.

 

Doing it voluntarily is one thing, but then lying about it is another.

 

Stop saying this without proof. Or, better yet, since you don't trust Apple, leave and never return.

Originally posted by Marvin

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post #72 of 130
"To the endless parade of critics who have been wondering why Americans have been stockpiling weapons, ammo, food, water and fuel for years... this story is a tiny piece of the answer."

Yeah, and you all *still* have nothing to show for it. Give me a break.
post #73 of 130
A national security letter or similar, one-sided gag order is constitutionally dubious. It's an involuntary NDA, without the A (you don't agree to anything). The existence of such authority is incompatible with "Congress shall make no law... abridging freedom of speech".

A random person or small company may be intimidated from challenging the government but Apple is big enough to litigate this.
post #74 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic_Al View Post

A national security letter or similar, one-sided gag order is constitutionally dubious. It's an involuntary NDA, without the A (you don't agree to anything). The existence of such authority is incompatible with "Congress shall make no law... abridging freedom of speech".

A random person or small company may be intimidated from challenging the government but Apple is big enough to litigate this.

Threats of automatic imprisonment without trial have a way of changing the decision making process.

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post #75 of 130

Hey Tallest Skil,

 

I guess you've missed the OFFICIAL confirmation.

 

YES Apple did LIE.

 

 

Quote "The New York Times":
WASHINGTON — The federal government has been secretly collecting information on foreigners overseas for nearly six years from the nation’s largest Internet companies like Google, Facebook and, most recently, Apple, in search of national security threats, the director of national intelligence confirmed Thursday night.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/07/us/nsa-verizon-calls.html?hp&_r=1&

post #76 of 130
Originally Posted by japm View Post
Hey Tallest SkilI guess you've missed the OFFICIAL confirmation.

 

Guess you missed it, too. That's why you didn't bother posting it.

Originally posted by Marvin

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post #77 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post

Pay attention to the wording-   Apple has never heard of PRISM [...], Apple does not give the government direct access to their servers (apple has a subsidiary somewhere with a computer that does have access to their servers-  the NSA has direct access to *that* computer)

 

You where absolutely right Frood!

 

That's exactly how they did it, so they could (with clever wording) deny everything. 

That's just so sleazy.

 

Quote:
 In another classified report obtained by The Post, the arrangement is described as allowing "collection managers [to send] content tasking instructions directly to equipment installed at company-controlled locations," rather than directly to company servers.
post #78 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by japm View Post

You where absolutely right Frood!

That's exactly how they did it, so they could (with clever wording) deny everything. 
That's just so sleazy.

Stil on this irrational kick of yours?

You says he's absolutely right but can't prove it. You then go to say that it's exactly how they do it. No variation at all with the scenario that could lead to the same results; only that exact scenario. You then conclude that its' "just so sleazy" and yet you have yet to show that any of these companies have done any of the things you've stated they've done. What's even more ridiculous about this comment is that you make yourself a hypocrite as you previous stated they are lying which mean what they are saying is inaccurate, but now you claiming what they doing exactly is different from what they stated. You can't have it both ways.


Here's how your response might sound if you actually wanted to sound like a rationale and reasonable person…
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOT_japm 
That certainly sounds plausible Frood!

There is plenty of evidence of companies using clever wording to be factual and yet deceptive.

If this is indeed the case it's sleazy.

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post #79 of 130
The US has been spying on it's citizens since day one but the big push started with the grand wizard J Edgar Hoover. Since then everything has been free game regardless of constitutionality. There's two sets of laws: one for our spies and one for the rest of us.
post #80 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa View Post

The problem is the two party system and the winner-take-all approach to representation, gerrymandering election district boundaries, etc.

When the option is to cast a vote between bad and worse, how do you expect to get even halfway decent politicians in power?

The "choice" we have is like going to a restaurant and getting the "choice" of french fries and onion rings, when what we're looking for are healthy vegetables and a fresh salad.

We don't have a two-party system, we have the illusion of no other choices combined with two parties which have crafted laws that disfavor the smaller, less well funded parties. This is not hyperbole.

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