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OBAMA WATCH - Page 2

post #41 of 64
Thread Starter 

Now we know the government wants to record everything we say and do, it's time that all politicians have everything they say and do recorded, 24/7 and made public. 

"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #42 of 64

Quietly awaits a tu toque accusation against Obama by the poster that so frequently wields that charge.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #43 of 64

Hey hows that Hopey Changey stuff working out for ya?

post #44 of 64

King Obama, The Tyrannical is in full swing now.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #45 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

King Obama, The Tyrannical is in full swing now.

Has anyone from the Obama administration actually apologised yet, for this and or Prism, bugging the EU etc?

"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #46 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Has anyone from the Obama administration actually apologised yet, for this and or Prism etc?

 

No, and don't hold your breath. The closest thing to an apology is making the excuse that "everyone does it."

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #47 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

No, and don't hold your breath. The closest thing to an apology is making the excuse that "everyone does it."

Even when they physically can't. I hope Snowden gets to tell us their future plans in more detail. Given how bad it already is, he must have known some pretty bad/scary stuff.

"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #48 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Hey hows that Hopey Changey stuff working out for ya?

 

Hopey Changey?

 

Ha!

 

 

As if! No chance.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #49 of 64
Thread Starter 

As a banner in this protest says-

 

"Yes We Scan" lol.gif

 

 

Intelligence agencies need powers to combat terrorism, but things are going too far for everyone else. The spy agencies budgets are increasing, whilst everything else is gettng cut, at least here in the UK anyway. If they can introduce new blasphemy laws etc that Obama and the UN are doing, we will be punished and banned from speaking. There really will become a "silent majority".

"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #50 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

As a banner in this protest says-

 

"Yes We Scan" lol.gif

 

 

Intelligence agencies need powers to combat terrorism, but things are going too far for everyone else. The spy agencies budgets are increasing, whilst everything else is gettng cut, at least here in the UK anyway. If they can introduce new blasphemy laws etc that Obama and the UN are doing, we will be punished and banned from speaking. There really will become a "silent majority".

 

 

Rogue elements within the US government are using "2nd hand terrorism" (with the complicity of the cowardly corporate media in full kneepad mode) to violate the rights of US citizens by flagrantly breaching the Bill of Rights, most especially the 4th Amendment. They are playing the terrorism card to the max, despite the fact that the chances of anyone being involved in a terrorist attack is less than that of drowning in the bathtub, dying from a bee sting, or being struck by lightning.

 

It's more Macchiavellian manipulation and power-strutting based on the projection of fear (and irrational hatred) in order to soften up the public. Anyone for a war on bathtubs or bad weather? Handsandon here has been thoroughly had.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #51 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

 

 

Rogue elements within the US government are using "2nd hand terrorism" (with the complicity of the cowardly corporate media in full kneepad mode) to violate the rights of US citizens by flagrantly breaching the Bill of Rights, most especially the 4th Amendment. They are playing the terrorism card to the max, despite the fact that the chances of anyone being involved in a terrorist attack is less than that of drowning in the bathtub, dying from a bee sting, or being struck by lightning.

 

It's more Macchiavellian manipulation and power-strutting based on the projection of fear (and irrational hatred) in order to soften up the public. Anyone for a war on bathtubs or bad weather? Handsandon here has been thoroughly had.

The fact is that tens of thousands of people could be dead if we hadn't FOILED so many attacks.

 

Regardless, I think there needs to be far better oversight of who and why agencies access all this information. We're not all terrorists and we don't want to be treated as if we were. 

"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #52 of 64

Lying is the Obama administration's default operating mode. They do it even when it's not necessary.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #53 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The fact is that tens of thousands of people could be dead if we hadn't FOILED so many attacks.

 

Actually, that's an assertion or a claim, even a presumption. But it has yet to be established as a fact.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #54 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Actually, that's an assertion or a claim, even a presumption. But it has yet to be established as a fact.

There is no solid figure for how many lives have been saved by foiled attacks. Just in this one plot alone thousands of lives would have been lost-

 

"A plot to blow up planes in flight from the UK to the US and commit "mass murder on an unimaginable scale" has been disrupted, Scotland Yard has said.

It is thought the plan was to detonate explosive devices smuggled in hand luggage on to as many as 10 aircraft."

~ http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4778575.stm

"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #55 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There is no solid figure for how many lives have been saved by foiled attacks. Just in this one plot alone thousands of lives would have been lost-

 

"A plot to blow up planes in flight from the UK to the US and commit "mass murder on an unimaginable scale" has been disrupted, Scotland Yard has said.

It is thought the plan was to detonate explosive devices smuggled in hand luggage on to as many as 10 aircraft."

~ http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4778575.stm

 

Wow. With the first sentence of the article (the one you quote) it's amazing anyone could take this seriously. How many times does the word "believe" (or its synonymous phrase "thought to") in that article?

 

Sheesh.

 

Frankly, this sounds like classic propaganda.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #56 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Wow. With the first sentence of the article (the one you quote) it's amazing anyone could take this seriously. How many times does the word "believe" (or its synonymous phrase "thought to") in that article?

 

Sheesh.

 

Frankly, this sounds like classic propaganda.

Ever heard of" innocent until proven guilty"? It's normal that journalists don't use stronger language. The two main plotters of this attack both received life sentences. Using extremely dangerous, liquid explosives, 10 massive airliners blown up, possibly over American cities, I'd say that's worth stopping, and the agencies must have the tools to do it.

 

By the way, if we hadn't stopped so many attacks, over 50 in the US since 9/11, then the ill feeling towards muslims would be far worse than it is today, and no doubt nutters would be burning mosques and attacking muslim's.  

"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #57 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Ever heard of" innocent until proven guilty"?

 

Yes. 1rolleyes.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The two main plotters of this attack both received life sentences.

 

I was going to ask what the result of all that was.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Using extremely dangerous, liquid explosives, 10 massive airliners blown up, possibly over American cities, I'd say that's worth stopping...

 

I agree. Never said it wasn't worth trying to stop such things. I merely question if this was as big a deal as you (and the press and the authorities) claimed it was. That's still not clear BTW.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

...and the agencies must have the tools to do it.

 

So now you favor widespread surveillance? I'm not sure what point you're making here. You seem to be flipping on the whole NSA spying thing. But, to be fair, maybe I've misinterpreted one (or both) of your statements.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

By the way, if we hadn't stopped so many attacks, over 50 in the US since 9/11...

 

Allegedly stopped over 50 attacks. And no sense on what the extent of those alleged attacks might have been. Until we truly understand all of that, we can't make a real determination about whether it is "worth" the invasions of privacy and the infringements of freedom that it has cost.

 

There are two sides here: cost and benefit.

 

The costs seem quite clear: increasing loss of liberty and privacy not to mention actually increasing fear.

The benefits are less so: Weakly substantiated claims of thwarted attacks, etc.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #58 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Yes. 1rolleyes.gif

 

 

 

I was going to ask what the result of all that was.

 

 

 

I agree. Never said it wasn't worth trying to stop such things. I merely question if this was as big a deal as you (and the press and the authorities) claimed it was. That's still not clear BTW.

 

 

 

So now you favor widespread surveillance? I'm not sure what point you're making here. You seem to be flipping on the whole NSA spying thing. But, to be fair, maybe I've misinterpreted one (or both) of your statements.

 

 

 

Allegedly stopped over 50 attacks. And no sense on what the extent of those alleged attacks might have been. Until we truly understand all of that, we can't make a real determination about whether it is "worth" the invasions of privacy and the infringements of freedom that it has cost.

 

There are two sides here: cost and benefit.

 

The costs seem quite clear: increasing loss of liberty and privacy not to mention actually increasing fear.

The benefits are less so: Weakly substantiated claims of thwarted attacks, etc.

There are about 50 we know about, but as the NSA has publicly stated, the vast majority of the foiled attacks cannot be told to the public. 

 

The airline plot is clear and decided. It was difficult building a case for everyone arrested over it, but the plot was to blow up the airlines.

 

I'm against the mass recording of all internet activity. I think they should have access to what's done online, etc, but only to gather information on terrorism and organised crime gangs. Only that should be allowed to be recorded, not everything we as citizens do. That's going way too far, and we should make sure we fight it. 

"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #59 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There are about 50 we know about

 

There are about 50 that have been claimed.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

...but as the NSA has publicly stated, the vast majority of the foiled attacks cannot be told to the public.

 

As a general rule, I make it my habit to be skeptical of everything liars tell me. I also, as a general rule, treat those with a vested interest in doing, continuing to do and expanding what they do (at my expense) with skepticism rather than blind obedience and acceptance. But that's just me.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The airline plot is clear and decided.

 

I guess I'll have to take your word for it. 1rolleyes.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'm against the mass recording of all internet activity. I think they should have access to what's done online, etc, but only to gather information on terrorism and organised crime gangs. Only that should be allowed to be recorded, not everything we as citizens do. That's going way too far, and we should make sure we fight it. 

 

I see. So it needs to be controlled in some manner? By courts and judges that issue warrants before searching? Or what about the claim that collecting the information is okay so long as they don't look at, but they still need a warrant (yeah right) to actually look at the data? Is that okay?

 

It seems we tried that and it didn't work. They violated it. Then lied about it.


Edited by MJ1970 - 7/6/13 at 9:32am

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #60 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

 Or what about the claim that collecting the information is okay so long as they don't look at, but they still need a warrant (yeah right) to actually look at the data? Is that okay?

 

It seems we tried that and it didn't work. They violated it. Then lied about it.

It's not ok, at all. That's the building blocks of a police state ruling over a literally "silent majority".

"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #61 of 64
Thread Starter 

By Gathering Data On Americans In One Place, The Government Is Creating An Attractive Target For Hackers

As if we needed another reason to oppose mass spying on the American public, Zdnet reports that the NSA database could be hacked by Chinese or -other lurkers:

What’s missing in this discussion [of NSA spying] is this: how secure is the NSA’s spying system?If a foreign entity wanted to spy on US companies or individuals, would it try to tackle the problem directly by targeting the specific company or individual in its electronic spying attempts? It might, but that’s a lot of work for an uncertain payoff.

A much more efficient approach would be to hack into a surveillance system that already has access to the information. Far better to hack into the NSA spying system at Google, or at Facebook, or at Microsoft (if such an NSA system exists, of course).

Everyone knows that there’s no such thing as a completely secure system. The greater danger in the NSA’s spying activities is not from the NSA itself, but from the many nefarious foreign national, and international criminal enterprises, that find a way to exploit the existing spy systems so thoroughly crafted, and so thoroughly extensive, that have been built by the NSA.

The danger from allowing the NSA to have deep access into the data systems of US companies is that that very system creates an enormous vulnerability that would not have existed. Hack into part of the NSA spy network and you have access to a mass of private data that would be near impossible to collect in any other way.

It’s ironic that the NSA’s activities to improve the security of the US have created the nation’s largest security risk of them all."

~ http://www.infowars.com/another-problem-with-mass-spying-centralized-data-creates-an-easy-mark-for-hackers/

"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #62 of 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Ever heard of" innocent until proven guilty"? It's normal that journalists don't use stronger language. The two main plotters of this attack both received life sentences. Using extremely dangerous, liquid explosives, 10 massive airliners blown up, possibly over American cities, I'd say that's worth stopping, and the agencies must have the tools to do it.

 

 

Binary explosives in mid air? LOL. Its a myth, a bunch of hooey. This phony garbage is second hand terrorism spread by government agencies with the complicit corporate media doing their duplicitous lying neocon bidding. Read this. TATP (etc) is probably the least likely way of blowing up an airliner...but we all rushed to believe the koolaid.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

By the way, if we hadn't stopped so many attacks, over 50 in the US since 9/11, .......

 

Do you honestly believe this? I do realize that some people are under some wild and misplaced impression that US government agencies that deal in this area are honest and truthful (lol), but this "50 thwarted attacks" claim has to be way beyond the bounds of credibility, even for the most naive amongst us. There are literally 10s of millions of unsecured "soft" targets all over the US that, if terrorists wanted to attack them, they could do so at will, a a time of their choosing, without any government agency having a clue - that is, if any of these alleged, wannabe "jihadists" (if they indeed exist) had the slightest idea of how to plan and execute an attack.

 

One of the prime considerations of any plot by a criminal gang or terrorist group  is to maintain security and secrecy at any and all cost. The IRA and ETA, for example, did such with virtual impunity - with a high success rate - and that was in countries (UK and Spain respectively) which are far smaller than the US. On the other hand, we are told that Muslim militants -  who are never named and remain motiveless - cant even organize the proverbial "party in a brewery", yet only a decade or so ago, a group of 19 alleged rookies with no paramilitary experience were responsible for running rings around the entire multi-trillion dollar US military-security-intelligence-law enforcement apparatus - in plain sight, for two whole hours, in the most heavily monitored skies on the planet.... without a response until the attack sequence was over (!). (If it really happened like that, then we have a real problem...but clearly, that is not the case).

 

In other words, we are expected to believe that on 9/11, the US security-intel-military infrastructure's response was the "epitome of ineptitude" and al Qaeda coke-snorting hard-drinking gold-wearing Fundamentalist Muslims (lol) whose best pilot was rejected by his instructor (lol) were the "masters of sophistication" - but on every occasion since then, al Qaeda's efforts are consistently like bumbling Laurel and Hardy sketches, while the security and intelligence services' performance magically went from "abysmal fail" on 9/11, to A++, at a stroke. (!). As the authoritarian contingent loves to (fallaciously) point out: "these new laws, measures and programs are justified because they've been keeping us safe since 9/11".

 

Yeah. Right. Give me a f***ing break. 1rolleyes.giflol.gif1rolleyes.gif

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #63 of 64

Impersonating the opposite side at political rallies and leaking personal tax files of opponents are already passé.

 

The Obama administration now wants your password. Wait till this gets used for politcal gain.

 

Conservatives will get computer files and internet posts stuffed with thoughts and opinions they never knew they had.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #64 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Food for thought:

 

 

Suppose that during the Stalin regime in the USSR, Eduard Snowdenski was an analyst who worked for a bureau under the NKVD (People’s Commissariat of Internal Affairs). Suppose that he decided to reveal to the Russian people the extent of the NKVD domestic spying apparatus that peopled the Gulag, or Main Directorate for Corrective Labor Camps, with prisoners.

How should Snowdenski do this? Should he report through NKVD channels, or should he defect?

Do you regard Snowdenski as a traitor if he defects to America and reveals the extent of the Russian domestic spying program?

Is Snowdenski a hero?

What is your opinion of those in the Kremlin who demand Snowdenski's head?

If Snowdenski defected to America and the USSR charged him with espionage, would you consider the charge valid?

Should America extradite him to the USSR?

 

Our inbred, inherited sense of entitlement (and duplicity) will prevent many people from seeing the irony. 

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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