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Apple throws out the rulebook for its unique next-gen Mac Pro - Page 29

post #1121 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

That one maxes out at 1080p. A NEC 10bit goes upto 2560*1440. No idea what that adapter costs, but I don't think it'll be a problem for someone getting a $1400 monitor.

 

The older HDMI spec tops out at 1080p.  To do 2560*1440 you need to use the display port option.

 

In any case the $799 PA271W-BK  2560x1440 (Amazon) does not come with HDMI but DP and Dual Link DVI.

 

http://www.necdisplay.com/p/desktop-monitors/pa271w-bk

 

Some of the higher res monitors that do have HDMI (the Dell 27" comes to mind) will top out at 1080p over HDMI since it uses the older HDMI spec (I think 1.2) without enough bandwidth.  The newer/newest HDMI spec does have enough bandwidth to drive 2560x1440.

post #1122 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

I don't consider the 21 inch iMac to be over priced for what it is.  I think it is reasonably priced.   It's only $1300 US.  

 

Well…given you can't upgrade the RAM or HDD yourself later you kinda need to do the 1TB fusion/256GB SSD (I think I'd go with the 256 SSD) and the 16GB upgrade.

 

That makes it $1700.

 

Given that the 256GB Samsung 840 SSD is $192.99 on amazon the SSD price of $200 is decent.  16GB of Crucial DDR3 runs $140 so that could be better but pretty much it's $60 of apple tax.

 

It's just that you have to do it RIGHT NOW even though 8GB RAM is good enough for now.  Just in 2017 maybe not so great.

post #1123 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

The older HDMI spec tops out at 1080p.  To do 2560*1440 you need to use the display port option.

In any case the $799 PA271W-BK  2560x1440 (Amazon) does not come with HDMI but DP and Dual Link DVI.

http://www.necdisplay.com/p/desktop-monitors/pa271w-bk

Some of the higher res monitors that do have HDMI (the Dell 27" comes to mind) will top out at 1080p over HDMI since it uses the older HDMI spec (I think 1.2) without enough bandwidth.  The newer/newest HDMI spec does have enough bandwidth to drive 2560x1440.

Good post! Informative.

I was only responding to Relics' NEC 10bit monitor adapter question. And the proposed model from Monoprice only does 1080, not the 'requested' 2560*1440.

Nice display BTW, with a higher contract but lower brightness than my 30" ACD. Although I don't think I could tell te difference. I wonder when OSX will support 10bit, I haven't read anything about it for 10.9
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post #1124 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Good post! Informative.

I was only responding to Relics' NEC 10bit monitor adapter question. And the proposed model from Monoprice only does 1080, not the 'requested' 2560*1440.

Nice display BTW, with a higher contract but lower brightness than my 30" ACD. Although I don't think I could tell te difference. I wonder when OSX will support 10bit, I haven't read anything about it for 10.9

 

Amazingly it's only $800 or so on Amazon:

 

http://www.amazon.com/NEC-PA271w-bk-27-Inch-2560-1440/dp/B003LD1QRY

 

The 27" Dell is only $600 but is 8-bit…which for OSX is probably good enough.  There is an ASUS with HDMI 1.4 which will handle 2560*1440 over HDMI.

 

http://www.amazon.com/PB278Q-27-Inch-LED-lit-Professional-Graphics/dp/B009C3M7H0

 

Color uniformity is meh but at 5ms it's probably meant to be more a gaming display than a graphics one.

post #1125 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post
 

 

Well…given you can't upgrade the RAM or HDD yourself later you kinda need to do the 1TB fusion/256GB SSD (I think I'd go with the 256 SSD) and the 16GB upgrade.

 

That makes it $1700.

 

Given that the 256GB Samsung 840 SSD is $192.99 on amazon the SSD price of $200 is decent.  16GB of Crucial DDR3 runs $140 so that could be better but pretty much it's $60 of apple tax.

 

It's just that you have to do it RIGHT NOW even though 8GB RAM is good enough for now.  Just in 2017 maybe not so great.

Well, when you buy third party memory and storage, it then depletes your mfg warranty and for many of us, that's not something recommended.  

 

Now, what's the Samsung 840 SSD storage rated at in terms of speed?  It's not 800Mbps, it's more like 540 MB/s for read and 330MB/s for Write  according to Samsung's technical information regarding the 840 series SSD, so you aren't getting the same speed as what Apple is using.   http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/minisite/SSD/global/download/Samsung_SSD_White_Paper.pdf


Again, please don't cloud the issue with 3rd party products as the mfg can't warranty non-mfg supplied parts. Same goes with other name brand computer mfg.

 

The Apple tax is because THEY have THE components THEY use to THEIR specs and requirements and THEY warrant THEIR products, 3rd party products that are much less expensive are NOT always going to meet the mfg specs and actually may not test the same, which is why it's cheaper.  Again, TOO MUCH IGNORANCE on the part of the consumer.

 

I will gladly pay a little extra for mfg supplied memory and storage because THEY support it under THEIR support contracts and past history has proven to me, that they have better reliability, especially in the area of RAM and Storage.

 

So, please don't mislead people into thinking that it's the same when you buy cheaper SSD, HDD, or RAM.  

post #1126 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post
 

 

Amazingly it's only $800 or so on Amazon:

 

http://www.amazon.com/NEC-PA271w-bk-27-Inch-2560-1440/dp/B003LD1QRY

 

The 27" Dell is only $600 but is 8-bit…which for OSX is probably good enough.  There is an ASUS with HDMI 1.4 which will handle 2560*1440 over HDMI.

 

http://www.amazon.com/PB278Q-27-Inch-LED-lit-Professional-Graphics/dp/B009C3M7H0

 

Color uniformity is meh but at 5ms it's probably meant to be more a gaming display than a graphics one.

nht, can you do me a HUGE favor?   Please don't use the term "meh".  I really don't like that word, I'm really MEH about the word MEH.  Thank you.

post #1127 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post
 

 

Amazingly it's only $800 or so on Amazon:

 

http://www.amazon.com/NEC-PA271w-bk-27-Inch-2560-1440/dp/B003LD1QRY

 

The 27" Dell is only $600 but is 8-bit…which for OSX is probably good enough.  There is an ASUS with HDMI 1.4 which will handle 2560*1440 over HDMI.

 

http://www.amazon.com/PB278Q-27-Inch-LED-lit-Professional-Graphics/dp/B009C3M7H0

 

Color uniformity is meh but at 5ms it's probably meant to be more a gaming display than a graphics one.

you want to buy an ASUS monitor instead of an Apple monitor?   I don't even want to spend my time researching another brand monitor.  That by itself costs money in TIME.  Plus Apple's AppleCare covers Apple's monitors when you buy them with an Apple computer.  I always buy AppleCare, so for those that want to buy AppleCare, just stick with Apple products and don't increase the number of "throats to choke" when you have a problem.   It wouldn't surprise me if Apple has their monitors better calibrated than ASUS. To me, ASUS is NOT a top tier mfg of computer products, they are more for the home/hobbiest.

 

 

Just reading posts is now beginning to waste my time.  TIME = MONEY.  I guess since most children don't make any money, then their time is worthless to them.

post #1128 of 1290

Quote:

Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

you want to buy an ASUS monitor instead of an Apple monitor?   I don't even want to spend my time researching another brand monitor.  That by itself costs money in TIME.  Plus Apple's AppleCare covers Apple's monitors when you buy them with an Apple computer.  I always buy AppleCare, so for those that want to buy AppleCare, just stick with Apple products and don't increase the number of "throats to choke" when you have a problem.   It wouldn't surprise me if Apple has their monitors better calibrated than ASUS. To me, ASUS is NOT a top tier mfg of computer products, they are more for the home/hobbiest.

 

 

Just reading posts is now beginning to waste my time.  TIME = MONEY.  I guess since most children don't make any money, then their time is worthless to them.

I have mentioned NEC before. I mention them more than Quato or Eizo because their price points are similar to Apple. If the consistency and hardware features of the display are a factor in determining your own efficiency, you should be able to make up any additional research time. I wouldn't just automatically buy Apple without research either. They have different products, and you still have to determine whether or not one is suitable to your needs. It's primarily software that keeps me with them for everything but unattached displays.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post
 

 

 
 

He spams his incoherent opinions across multiple threads is a right wanker whenever he gets challenged just like above.  

 

Pounded into your brain with a bat?  Yeah, the kind of "good guy" you see in the football stands at Bristol.


I just looked back through those quotes. Sometimes when there's a lot of quibbling, I skim through most of it. I noticed that the subject of bats didn't originate there. Preceding it we have

Quote:
  I was responding to Lemon, he for some reason has a difficult time with that and he needs to have it pounded in his brain that Apple isn't going to go after the low end computer market,

 

This is an issue of escalation.  I don't typically see him responding with hostility at anyone on here, although sometimes it's directed at Adobe. His opinions are preachy at times, but I never thought of them as incoherent. I still see your point and wanted to acknowledge it, but I'm not going to argue it further.

post #1129 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 

Quote:

I have mentioned NEC before. I mention them more than Quato or Eizo because their price points are similar to Apple. If the consistency and hardware features of the display are a factor in determining your own efficiency, you should be able to make up any additional research time. I wouldn't just automatically buy Apple without research either. They have different products, and you still have to determine whether or not one is suitable to your needs. It's primarily software that keeps me with them for everything but unattached displays.

 


I just looked back through those quotes. Sometimes when there's a lot of quibbling, I skim through most of it. I noticed that the subject of bats didn't originate there. Preceding it we have

 

This is an issue of escalation.  I don't typically see him responding with hostility at anyone on here, although sometimes it's directed at Adobe. His opinions are preachy at times, but I never thought of them as incoherent. I still see your point and wanted to acknowledge it, but I'm not going to argue it further.

There are usually only a couple of higher end monitors I would suggest using over Apple's unless you don't care about getting an AppleCare warranty, which many people do or should when they didn't.  Corporate customers I used to deal with eventually began buying support contracts because it was a LOT less expensive during the lifecycle to do it that way.  I used to sell NEC, Viewsonic, and maybe a couple of other brands, but NEC and Viewsonic were the two biggest 3rd party.  Apple does a nice job with their monitors and to get something with close specs, they are about the same cost, so why would someone not buy an Apple.  I know there are a very small group of people that want/need something that Apple doesn't make, but those cases are very rare, otherwise, the people that go for 3rd party monitors are doing so based predominately on price and they don't always look at the specs.


What gets me is that people are NOT talking about the business perspective of buying 3rd party vs the mfg.  That's the business aspects of buying a computer.  But most techie people don't have much business sense as they only see the price of the item and not the total cost of ownership.

post #1130 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

There are usually only a couple of higher end monitors I would suggest using over Apple's unless you don't care about getting an AppleCare warranty, which many people do or should when they didn't.  Corporate customers I used to deal with eventually began buying support contracts because it was a LOT less expensive during the lifecycle to do it that way.  I used to sell NEC, Viewsonic, and maybe a couple of other brands, but NEC and Viewsonic were the two biggest 3rd party.  Apple does a nice job with their monitors and to get something with close specs, they are about the same cost, so why would someone not buy an Apple.  I know there are a very small group of people that want/need something that Apple doesn't make, but those cases are very rare, otherwise, the people that go for 3rd party monitors are doing so based predominately on price and they don't always look at the specs.

I do remember when you mentioned selling some of these. NEC makes stuff over a pretty broad price range. When I mentioned a similar price range, I was thinking of something like a PA271w. It's not my favorite out there, but at that price point, that is what I would buy. I think they've shown up as cheap as 925 at times. Sadly Hitachi panels no longer appear in anything and NEC no longer designs their own panels like they did with some of the more expensive 80s and 90s series displays (used a 2190UXi at one point and a CG211 at a job I held concurrently at the time). They're also on 4 year warranties. I think Applecare may be easier to deal with when it comes to dissatisfaction with something that is on the edge of being within spec yet still bothersome. If NEC agrees to replace it, their more expensive ones have a 48 hour replacement. I just wanted to point out that I was referring to a smaller subset, mostly those in art production fields or in house art departments within ad agencies.

 

Quote:
What gets me is that people are NOT talking about the business perspective of buying 3rd party vs the mfg.  That's the business aspects of buying a computer.  But most techie people don't have much business sense as they only see the price of the item and not the total cost of ownership.

Yeah I understood that.

post #1131 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

Well, when you buy third party memory and storage, it then depletes your mfg warranty and for many of us, that's not something recommended.  

 

...

 

I will gladly pay a little extra for mfg supplied memory and storage because THEY support it under THEIR support contracts and past history has proven to me, that they have better reliability, especially in the area of RAM and Storage.

 

So, please don't mislead people into thinking that it's the same when you buy cheaper SSD, HDD, or RAM.  

 

The point is that you should upgrade to the SSD and 16GB RAM AND that Apple prices for the upgrade is fair in comparison to 3rd party prices.

 

But that still leaves you at $1700 not $1300.  

 

I'm surprised that Apple didn't just do Fusion as baseline for the $1499 model and forgo that $200 up charge since it makes a huge difference in performance.  That would make the $1499 model even more of a no brainer over the $1299 one.

post #1132 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

you want to buy an ASUS monitor instead of an Apple monitor?   I don't even want to spend my time researching another brand monitor.  That by itself costs money in TIME.  

 

For $500 vs $999?  I'd consider it unless I was a graphics designer.  I'd pick the NEC over the Apple 27" if I were.  

 

My time is worth around $100 an hour to me.  It doesn't take me 5 hours to research monitors and it's kinda fun.  It's not like there are THAT many choices.

 

27" + IPS + reputable company + under $1000 leaves only a handful of choices.

post #1133 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post
 

 

The point is that you should upgrade to the SSD and 16GB RAM AND that Apple prices for the upgrade is fair in comparison to 3rd party prices.

 

But that still leaves you at $1700 not $1300.  

 

I'm surprised that Apple didn't just do Fusion as baseline for the $1499 model and forgo that $200 up charge since it makes a huge difference in performance.  That would make the $1499 model even more of a no brainer over the $1299 one.

Because the SSD is expensive and that would drive their margins below a certain acceptable level.    You keep on forgetting they have to have acceptable margins, otherwise members of upper management might lose their job, or the shareholders will get pissed off for not meeting their target profit margins.  No one else has AIO or other models with as much higher speed SSD as an offering.  I think Apple's the only one.  Most of the PC mfg offer less SSD storage and it's typically the slower SSD.

 

With the PC mfg, it's basically become a problem for them to retain decent margins which is why IBM sold off, Compaq sold off, Alienware sold off, Dell went private, HP is in deep financial crap and they can't even find anyone to buy their PC division.  Seriously, decent profit margins is why these PC mfg are in such deep financial $hit if you will.  Same thing with most of the Android phone mfg.  They sacrifice profits for market share and that will get them into financial trouble every time.

 

Do you want to buy a company's products where their ability to stay in business remains unclear?  Apple already went through that once and they don't want to go through it again.

post #1134 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post
 

 

For $500 vs $999?  I'd consider it unless I was a graphics designer.  I'd pick the NEC over the Apple 27" if I were.  

 

My time is worth around $100 an hour to me.  It doesn't take me 5 hours to research monitors and it's kinda fun.  It's not like there are THAT many choices.

 

27" + IPS + reputable company + under $1000 leaves only a handful of choices.

Really?  So you haven't timed yourself on researching every single monitor on the market?  I used to get paid to do it, and since I don't anymore, I already know that a similar product from NEC, Viewsonic, etc. to the Apple Thunderbolt display is priced about the same and the time it takes to do the research is far more than a couple of hours. 

 

What NEC monitor that's $500 that has the same specs at Apple's Thunderbolt display?  What NEC part number are you looking at?   Is it one of their value line 27inch monitors?  NEC and Viewsonic have different levels of monitors. They have the low budget POS, then the medium range and then the higher range products which is where the Thunderbolt competes.

 

BTW, I just went to NEC's website and all of the 27inch monitors they have listed have a retail list price of MORE than $999.  The NEC 27inch monitors aren't 2550 x 1440, they are 1920 x 1080.  Heck, my iPad has better resolution than a freaking NEC 27 low budget monitor.

 

Now, I just spent a little time doing, but I am going to charge you $100 for wasting MY time with your BS.  You are comparing a much lower resolution monitor to the Apple, hence the big price difference.

 

The cheapest NEC 27 inch monitor with 2550 x 1440 res is $1200 Retail List, before discount.  Sorry, I'll take the Thunderbolt for MOST situations.  If I need something the much higher priced NEC offers, maybe i would consider one of their higher priced 27inch, but their $500 27 inch monitors kinda suck.  Too bad you can't look inside to see how cheaply made the power supply is.


Edited by drblank - 11/11/13 at 1:50pm
post #1135 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post
 

 

For $500 vs $999?  I'd consider it unless I was a graphics designer.  I'd pick the NEC over the Apple 27" if I were.  

 

My time is worth around $100 an hour to me.  It doesn't take me 5 hours to research monitors and it's kinda fun.  It's not like there are THAT many choices.

 

27" + IPS + reputable company + under $1000 leaves only a handful of choices.

Have you ever earned $100/hr for any job you've done?  If so, what did you do for that money?  If you worked for a reseller and tried to sell some lower resolution monitor against the Apple Thunderbolt display trying to pass it off as the same thing, you would NOT have a job for very long.  I'v worked in the corporate reseller industry for a LONG time and reps that pulled that stunt would be the entry level reps that wouldn't last long.

post #1136 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 

I do remember when you mentioned selling some of these. NEC makes stuff over a pretty broad price range. When I mentioned a similar price range, I was thinking of something like a PA271w. It's not my favorite out there, but at that price point, that is what I would buy. I think they've shown up as cheap as 925 at times. Sadly Hitachi panels no longer appear in anything and NEC no longer designs their own panels like they did with some of the more expensive 80s and 90s series displays (used a 2190UXi at one point and a CG211 at a job I held concurrently at the time). They're also on 4 year warranties. I think Applecare may be easier to deal with when it comes to dissatisfaction with something that is on the edge of being within spec yet still bothersome. If NEC agrees to replace it, their more expensive ones have a 48 hour replacement. I just wanted to point out that I was referring to a smaller subset, mostly those in art production fields or in house art departments within ad agencies.

 

Yeah I understood that.

The PA271W is $1200 Suggested Retail List price.  Where can you get a $1200 PA271W brand new, sealed in a box, for $500?

post #1137 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

 

 

What NEC monitor that's $500 that has the same specs at Apple's Thunderbolt display?  What NEC part number are you looking at?   Is it one of their value line 27inch monitors?  NEC and Viewsonic have different levels of monitors. They have the low budget POS, then the medium range and then the higher range products which is where the Thunderbolt competes.

 

BTW, I just went to NEC's website and all of the 27inch monitors they have listed have a retail list price of MORE than $999.  The NEC 27inch monitors aren't 2550 x 1440, they are 1920 x 1080.  Heck, my iPad has better resolution than a freaking NEC 27 low budget monitor.

I know what you mean regarding list price, but I've found them for consistently less from reputable retailers. B+H sells the thunderbolt display for $949. Note its price on the PA271w. NEC is pretty aggressive on price cuts after the first 12-18 months of a display product cycle, and like Eizo and Quato, they do have features to help improve uniformity beyond the limits of mass manufactured panels, and offer what they call hardware level calibration. I call it near metal. It is more effective over the life of the display than tuning everything via the profile. I think I mentioned earlier what Apple could do without adding software complexity. I figured it to be one of the points they would address in their research, much like they looked into reducing reflections through adjusted screen treatments over the past couple generations.

 

Regarding the iPad, there's a reason I recently started writing software for them. I really like the display, and I have always favored touch screen. It's just that there are too few cintiqs in the wild. I still prefer C++ to Objective-C, but it is what it is. C++ has a lot of really great libraries that are difficult to implement that way, even if you can technically do it as long as the low level bindings use Objective-C. I'm getting off track though. The iPad has higher resolution than a lot of displays. At the top end as of today, you can expect 1920x1200 in a 24" 16:10 display or 1920x1080 on a 16:9 with the same diagonal measurement. The 27" models are also split. I suspect the 1920x1080 types are shared with televisions. The others are also 16:9. The panels are basically a widened version of the 25.5" panels that preceded them. They went from 16:10 25.5 (marketed as 26") to 16:9 at 27". Those are all 2560x1400. They use the same or similar panels, with differing implementations. It's the high level of commoditization that brought prices down, but you don't have anywhere near the dpi available in phones or tablet displays.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

Have you ever earned $100/hr for any job you've done?  If so, what did you do for that money?  If you worked for a reseller and tried to sell some lower resolution monitor against the Apple Thunderbolt display trying to pass it off as the same thing, you would NOT have a job for very long.  I'v worked in the corporate reseller industry for a LONG time and reps that pulled that stunt would be the entry level reps that wouldn't last long.


Most jobs don't pay $100/hr. as a wage. Once you move past a certain point the structure typically differs if you are an employee. It's more common in a consultant position or if you're providing a service where the billing metric is in terms of hours and reimbursable expenses. Unless it's a very urgent matter, these things tend to be completed when down time exists, that is when the time wouldn't be allocated to immediate customer or employer concerns. If you are planning to phase in 10 new displays or something of that sort, your constituents still have something to use in the mean time. Depending on the scale of the purchase, I suspect you spend some time on research when it comes to cost to benefit ratio. There are also reviews of these things performed by highly reputable resellers with testing facilities. This one is from Chromix, as they maintain the wiki.

 

You mentioned the issue of power supplies. You might find other issues with cheap transistors used and various other cost cutting measures. What makes you specifically believe that Apple is immune to this? My own experiences with Apple displays are drastically different when comparing between displays associated with macs and those used in idevices.

post #1138 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

Really?  So you haven't timed yourself on researching every single monitor on the market?

 

Nope.  Did I say "every single monitor" on the market?  No.

Quote:
I used to get paid to do it, and since I don't anymore, I already know that a similar product from NEC, Viewsonic, etc. to the Apple Thunderbolt display is priced about the same and the time it takes to do the research is far more than a couple of hours. 

 

The NEC is $800 if you actually READ the discussion you are participating in.  The ASUS is $500 and the answer was clearly in response to your question of "you want to buy an ASUS monitor instead of an Apple monitor?"

 

Yes, for half the price if I were simply going to use it for a larger screen and I didn't have any color requirements.  I would also buy the NEC monitor for $800 over the $999 Apple.

 

BTW, I just went to NEC's website and all of the 27inch monitors they have listed have a retail list price of MORE than $999.  

 

The cheapest NEC 27 inch monitor with 2550 x 1440 res is $1200 Retail List, before discount.  Sorry, I'll take the Thunderbolt for MOST situations.  

 

Nobody pay retail.  That's the first rule of procurement (yes, there are caveats…there are always caveats).

 

When I buy Apple gear I don't pay retail either.  I get a corporate discount.

Quote:
Now, I just spent a little time doing, but I am going to charge you $100 for wasting MY time with your BS.  

 

Your time isn't worth $100.  You didn't read the requirements and your analysis was incorrect.

 

The requirements were clearly delineated:

 

IPS panel

27"

Under $1000

post #1139 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

Have you ever earned $100/hr for any job you've done?  If so, what did you do for that money?  If you worked for a reseller and tried to sell some lower resolution monitor against the Apple Thunderbolt display trying to pass it off as the same thing, you would NOT have a job for very long.  I'v worked in the corporate reseller industry for a LONG time and reps that pulled that stunt would be the entry level reps that wouldn't last long.

 

Back in my consulting days I'd pull anywhere from $70 to $300 depending on if someone was finding me gigs as a computer geek or I found them myself.  If I got them myself I'd have the higher end of the spectrum since I was doing all the legwork.  Otherwise they usually took a big cut.  These days I have a normal job and make a lot less but on the plus side I'm not stressed out and I don't have to live out of a suitcase.

 

Often I would be the technical weenie responsible speccing the system and doing the AoAs.  So I'd be the asshole you'd have to suck up to.  Well maybe not you.  Reseller?  Never dealt with them much.  I dealt with IBM, HP, Sun and Oracle reps.

 

$100 is simply my threshold for deciding if it's worth it to pay someone else to do something I can do but don't want to.  If it costs more than $100 an hour and I can do the job but just don't like it then I'll usually bite the bullet and do it myself.  Otherwise I'll pay up and do something else.

post #1140 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

The PA271W is $1200 Suggested Retail List price.  Where can you get a $1200 PA271W brand new, sealed in a box, for $500?

 

There's obviously no MAP if it's selling on Amazon for $799.  I have no idea why you keep quoting MSRP prices.  Nobody needs to pay MSRP even for the Thunderbolt Display.

 

The Dell U2711 is currently $629 on Amazon but I've seen it for around $500.  2560x1440, H-IPS, DIsplayPort, DVI-D, HDMI.

The Dell U2713HM is $699 on Dell and I've seen that less too.  Dell runs deals all the time.  Checking my personal enterprise discount shows $664.  For an actual corporate purchase it's even less.

 

My Apple enterprise discount gives me a price of $949 for the Thunderbolt display.  Which is $20 more than the price I would pay at Adorama ($929).  And no tax for Adorama.  

 

Meh. (Just to annoy you)

 

Still wouldn't buy it.  It's due for a refresh and still has premium pricing.

post #1141 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

There are usually only a couple of higher end monitors I would suggest using over Apple's unless you don't care about getting an AppleCare warranty, which many people do or should when they didn't.  Corporate customers I used to deal with eventually began buying support contracts because it was a LOT less expensive during the lifecycle to do it that way.  I used to sell NEC, Viewsonic, and maybe a couple of other brands, but NEC and Viewsonic were the two biggest 3rd party.  Apple does a nice job with their monitors and to get something with close specs, they are about the same cost, so why would someone not buy an Apple.  I know there are a very small group of people that want/need something that Apple doesn't make, but those cases are very rare, otherwise, the people that go for 3rd party monitors are doing so based predominately on price and they don't always look at the specs.


What gets me is that people are NOT talking about the business perspective of buying 3rd party vs the mfg.  That's the business aspects of buying a computer.  But most techie people don't have much business sense as they only see the price of the item and not the total cost of ownership.

I personally have always bought NEC monitors, starting with CRT. I have had just so much success with then in terms of quality and lasting so long. I also think their color palettes are much nicer then Apples offerings as Apple doesn't use the best LCD panels on the market, their using LG now. I'm also just now getting into 10bit, plus I really, really like monitors that rotate, especially when you have three 30" like I do. I had a 24" Apple monitor with my G4 Powermac and it was nice, albeit gimicky looking but nice none the less. Apple monitors have always been on the expensive side when compared to other high tier monitors and If I'm going to spend a 1,000 dollars on a monitor, I'm going to spend 1300 and get a 10BIT NEC but it's just all about preferences, nothing wrong with the 27" Apple Display, although it is a little bit long in the tooth technology wise. The new 4K monitors should be much nicer.

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post #1142 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post
 

 

There's obviously no MAP if it's selling on Amazon for $799.  I have no idea why you keep quoting MSRP prices.  Nobody needs to pay MSRP even for the Thunderbolt Display.

 

The Dell U2711 is currently $629 on Amazon but I've seen it for around $500.  2560x1440, H-IPS, DIsplayPort, DVI-D, HDMI.

The Dell U2713HM is $699 on Dell and I've seen that less too.  Dell runs deals all the time.  Checking my personal enterprise discount shows $664.  For an actual corporate purchase it's even less.

 

My Apple enterprise discount gives me a price of $949 for the Thunderbolt display.  Which is $20 more than the price I would pay at Adorama ($929).  And no tax for Adorama.  

 

Meh. (Just to annoy you)

 

Still wouldn't buy it.  It's due for a refresh and still has premium pricing.

Because that's how I look up monitors. I compare BOTH company's MSRP.  Now, Apple prices their products because the resellers get very little room to discount.  This type of pricing practice was done many years ago by the top pc mfg, Apple's only one of them whereby they knock the MSRP down, and remove margins to the reseller so these steep discounting stops which destroys the branding.  It's a different pricing model.  But Apple does sell refurbished units which come with the Apple warranty from time to time.

 

But you have to shop around for pricing and you have to watch out for companies that sell already opened/returned monitors. That practice happens a LOT.  Have you ever been to Fry's Electronics?  Sometimes, that's all they have is previously opened product.  Just something to consider.

 

My biggest beef are the people that think that Apple's products are overpriced, because I honestly think that they really aren't that bad OR those trying to pass off that something a LOT cheaper is "just as good", when it is usually worse specs, not from a name brand top tier company, etc. etc.

 

It's all how some people are positioning this whole thing.


Sure, I would love to be able to get XYZ for under $1000 that they are selling for a lot more than that, but Apple is simply not going to just drop the price of something that drastically.  It's rare when they drop the price of a fully configured system more than $200 from year to year and I think their entry price for laptops is pretty set as are desktop/AIO.  I don't how much further they can go down and STILL retain decent profit margins.

 

The PC mfg are all VERY desperate right now and they are cutting corners all over the place to keep the price down as much as they can, but their margins are pretty much horrible.  I'm wondering which of the bigger name PC mfg is going to close their doors.   NEC actually got out of the PC industry and recently got out of the smartphone industry.

 

I'm sure there will be others within the next year, which ones?  That I don't know.  I'd have to start looking at their trends for profit, sales, etc. and see which are in the worst shape.

post #1143 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

 

Still wouldn't buy it.  It's due for a refresh and still has premium pricing.

That's my biggest problem with the current 27" Apple Display, their asking way to much for it. I would dare say that the margins on that display is about 600 dollars, maybe more, they display panel alone isn't worth more then 150 dollars, Apple is spending the money on the Thunderport hub and metal (which is actually a fairly cheap material in itself) at market cost there is about 12 dollars worth of Aluminum in there.

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post #1144 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

I personally have always bought NEC monitors, starting with CRT. I have had just so much success with then in terms of quality and lasting so long. I also think their color palettes are much nicer then Apples offerings as Apple doesn't use the best LCD panels on the market, their using LG now. I'm also just now getting into 10bit, plus I really, really like monitors that rotate, especially when you have three 30" like I do. I had a 24" Apple monitor with my G4 Powermac and it was nice, albeit gimicky looking but nice none the less. Apple monitors have always been on the expensive side when compared to other high tier monitors and If I'm going to spend a 1,000 dollars on a monitor, I'm going to spend 1300 and get a 10BIT NEC but it's just all about preferences, nothing wrong with the 27" Apple Display, although it is a little bit long in the tooth technology wise. The new 4K monitors should be much nicer.

Well, since they are working with the IGZO screens, it's new technology and it takes a little time to ring out all of the mfg problems to be able to get the yield to bring them to market.  Plus, they have to look at calibration techniques used as that's been a big deal for Apple as of late.  I think Apple will probably do a 4K monitor release either December or January.

 

I don't there is anything wrong with the technology, but I think they could probably make the case thinner, and they might replace it with an IGZO panel since that's probably the only thing that makes sense to replace them with.

post #1145 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

I personally have always bought NEC monitors, starting with CRT.

 

 

They were one of my favorites in CRTs along with Sony.

 

Quote:
I'm going to spend 1300 and get a 10BIT NEC but it's just all about preferences, nothing wrong with the 27" Apple Display, although it is a little bit long in the tooth technology wise.

 

The ones using 10 bit hardware do have 10 bit paths available in some applications using certain gpus. Some software on Windows supports a full 10 bit path, but even without that if you're using spectraview for calibration, it still helps on internal processing. 10 bpc is enough to basically eliminate the need for hardware dithering, which is why I like it. In my opinion Apple designed the current 27" models like notebook docks. Note the short power cords that started with the 27" cinema display. The thunderbolt display added a full array of ports. The thing I find really dated is that they didn't update the thunderbolt display to match the form and screen treatment of the current model imacs. In terms of panel technology, they have all been on the market for several years at this point as far as I can tell.

post #1146 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 

 

They were one of my favorites in CRTs along with Sony.

 

 

The ones using 10 bit hardware do have 10 bit paths available in some applications using certain gpus. Some software on Windows supports a full 10 bit path, but even without that if you're using spectraview for calibration, it still helps on internal processing. 10 bpc is enough to basically eliminate the need for hardware dithering, which is why I like it. In my opinion Apple designed the current 27" models like notebook docks. Note the short power cords that started with the 27" cinema display. The thunderbolt display added a full array of ports. The thing I find really dated is that they didn't update the thunderbolt display to match the form and screen treatment of the current model imacs. In terms of panel technology, they have all been on the market for several years at this point as far as I can tell.

 

 

Right agreed, it's a waiting game thought, like you taught me with the thunderport, first comes the hardware.

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post #1147 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

 

 

Right agreed, it's a waiting game thought, like you taught me with the thunderport, first comes the hardware.


Huh? I don't think I taught you that. I don't really offer much in the way of teaching unless you're referring to what I said about iOS hardware capability, but I do link to silly stuff like people playing cellos with lightsabers:D. That thing still makes me laugh.

post #1148 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post
 

 

Back in my consulting days I'd pull anywhere from $70 to $300 depending on if someone was finding me gigs as a computer geek or I found them myself.  If I got them myself I'd have the higher end of the spectrum since I was doing all the legwork.  Otherwise they usually took a big cut.  These days I have a normal job and make a lot less but on the plus side I'm not stressed out and I don't have to live out of a suitcase.

 

Often I would be the technical weenie responsible speccing the system and doing the AoAs.  So I'd be the asshole you'd have to suck up to.  Well maybe not you.  Reseller?  Never dealt with them much.  I dealt with IBM, HP, Sun and Oracle reps.

 

$100 is simply my threshold for deciding if it's worth it to pay someone else to do something I can do but don't want to.  If it costs more than $100 an hour and I can do the job but just don't like it then I'll usually bite the bullet and do it myself.  Otherwise I'll pay up and do something else.

Did you ever work for a reseller as an account rep selling to corporate customers?  That's my background and I had to know all the major companies and the various discount structure.  I did that from the mid-80's to 2000 until I left the reseller industry and went to a enterprise s/w company.  During my time at the resellers, we had mfg reps coming in daily and we had to go through constant product training w/ the reps and some of my customers asked questions most people don't ask and they evaluate products differently than your typical consumer.    I actually had to "teach" some of my customers how to completely change their procurement structure as they were driving up their own internal costs to manage their IT more efficiently.  I've seen some of the biggest blunders even within the customer IT shop.  It's actually cheaper in the long run to manage less vendors for IT based products and to standardize on models/brands rather than constantly chasing the lowest price.  I've seen too many customers getting burned when they focused soley on price as the vendor was constantly throwing vendors out the door because the vendors couldn't make any money so there wasn't that symbiotic relationship between the customer and mfg./vendor.

 

People have to learn how to interact with companies and be realistic about their expectations and mfg have to do whatever they can to make better products and better support, but doing that and making a decent profit margin isn't so easy.


Personally, I see too much crap on the market, especially at the retail level.  I'm surprised some of these mfg still exist and get away with what they are doing.

post #1149 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

That's my biggest problem with the current 27" Apple Display, their asking way to much for it. I would dare say that the margins on that display is about 600 dollars, maybe more, they display panel alone isn't worth more then 150 dollars, Apple is spending the money on the Thunderport hub and metal (which is actually a fairly cheap material in itself) at market cost there is about 12 dollars worth of Aluminum in there.

 

$12 worth of aluminum?  Well at scrap metal prices, but fabrication costs is what escalates $12 worth of scrap metal into $100+ for the case/stand.  That's not the cheap beer can aluminum, that's higher grade aluminum.

 

Have you ever worked for a mfg?

 

I doubt Apple is making much more than a couple of hundred dollars on that monitor since a lot of them get sold for less money to distributors/resellers.  CDW gets them at slightly lower prices than resellers since CDW resells to resellers.  So Apple gets around $800 or so from the reseller, and their cost to mfg that product is probably more like around $500 to $600 is my guess. Those panels are probably several hundred dollars.  The 15inch Retina display is around $150 to $175 from what I read a while back and I'm sure the 27inch screen is more like $300, maybe more.

 

Then you have the glass on top of the screen.  

 

Then you have the electronics and other guts inside, plus the box it ships in. I think that monitor costs Apple more like $500 to $600 for finished goods and I actually might still be a little low on it.

 

Oh, and the various parts are made in different factories and then have to be shipped to one central location to be assembled and calibrated.  You have to add in shipping costs, because the parts mfg added shipping charges.

 

I think you fabricate a bunch of BS to sell your reasoning and I think you are wrong in how you think.

post #1150 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

That's my biggest problem with the current 27" Apple Display, their asking way to much for it. I would dare say that the margins on that display is about 600 dollars, maybe more, they display panel alone isn't worth more then 150 dollars, Apple is spending the money on the Thunderport hub and metal (which is actually a fairly cheap material in itself) at market cost there is about 12 dollars worth of Aluminum in there.

 

Sorry, they don't have $600 of gross profit in that Thunderbolt display. They probably PAY $600 for it fully finished, and I might be a little low.

 

That panel costs Apple far more than $150.  Where do you get your numbers from?

 

Do you know how much milling time is for fabricating metal?  How much milling time is there for that back panel?  It doesn't take them 5 minutes just for milling time. And how much metal is lost for each monitor?  They have to factor those costs in and Foxconn or whomever may not even make that part, they go with outside suppliers to make each component and Foxconn does the assembly work.

I've spent some time looking at mfg costs of metal.  It's not as cheap as you think when you are dealing with the types of metals, fabrication methods and finishing methods Apple has on their products.


If they used ultra cheap aluminum that was stamped, that's much cheaper process, but Apple isn't doing that.  They are taking blocks of aluminum and milling them, that's what they use for the iPhones, iPads, laptops and desktops.

 

The case for the Mac Pro is extruded, so they take the block of aluminum, extrude it, and then it goes through a series of processes in milling it down to precise shape, and then polished, buffed, sand blasted, etc., anodized and while they use robotics, there are operators paid by the hour and each process costs a lot of money per hour.  The grade of aluminum that Apple uses, from what I can tell is amongst the highest priced aluminum.  It's more like 6061 grade aluminum.  Have you priced that grade aluminum lately?  It's not $.05 a pound.   I assure you. and there is a lot of aluminum that they pay for that gets turned into scrap which they only recoup a small portion.

 

The cheaper grade panels on $450 27 inch monitors are probably $150 panels, but the higher res 2550 x 1440 are more like $300.

 

Just in machine time, from start to finish, it probably eats up about $75 or more per case, plus the price of aluminum, plus shipping, so it's probably ends up around $100 or more JUST for the case before it goes to final assembly.

post #1151 of 1290

Apple's Thunderbolt monitor costs Apple more than what it costs NEC for their $1200 MSRP monitor, but the $1200 NEC is not their best or most expensive monitor.   BH sells the PA271W for $1199, essentially full MSRP.

 

I've seen them offered for $800, but something tells me they might be B stock, from $1200 to $800 is a big price drop, so maybe NEC is EOL the PA271W, they are a little on the thick side. That happens a lot with these heavy discounters.  Apple doesn't offer Thunderbolt displays as refurbished all that often, but when they do, they obviously sell them for less than $999.   Apple manages their inventory pretty well and they rarely get caught with too much inventory where they have to dump product at a loss.  But a lot of these monitor mfg dump product at a loss from time to time, that's why most of the monitor mfg aren't doing so well.

 

I think Apple's getting ready to release their refreshed product and it'll probably be IGZO and I'm sure they'll have at least two models to choose from and one will be 4K for the MacPro crowd and then the updated Thunderbolt for everyone that doesn't need 4K.

 

I don't think Apple is too out of line for the price of the Thunderbolt monitor.  They don't make the panels, so they have contracted pricing for the specs they use.

post #1152 of 1290

BTW, NEC is not doing well financially, the company as a whole has either been losing money or making VERY little in Net Profits. They actually might become the next casualty if they aren't careful.  The monitor industry takes a heavy beating since there are just too many mfg with too many products and most of them build up inventories and then they end up having to dump a lot of product at a loss.  Panasonic has been hit, Sharp has been hit.  Sony, etc., etc.  I know those 3D TVs a while back was a big mess, they didn't sell well.

 

I used to like NEC products, I don't have anything against them per se, but I think they offer too many products and that's just too costly to manage.  These companies that make little to no profits need to slim down their product offerings to the models that actually make decent profits.   They have about 50 different desktop monitors alone.  That's just ridiculous too many different models.  

post #1153 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

 

Then you have the electronics and other guts inside, plus the box it ships in. I think that monitor costs Apple more like $500 to $600 for finished goods and I actually might still be a little low on it.

 

The 27" Thunderbolt Display uses the same LG panel thats in the Dell U2713HM and 2009 iMac (LG LM270WQ1).  The Dell MSRPs for $799 and retails for $600.  (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/906906-REG/Dell_469_3852_U2713HM_27_LED_LCD.html)  

 

This is actually a slightly lower end panel than what was in the Dell U2711 (LG LM270WQ2).

 

The Apple 27" TB display does not cost $600 to manufacture.  Especially not in 2013 two and a half years after initial launch.  Margins on retail sales are north of 40% given Dell isn't selling at a loss.  Frankly, if the BOM is around $500 then gross margins is around 50% for Apple retail sales and 37% for wholesale.

 

Its really overdue for a refresh.  Probably with the Mac Pro.


Edited by nht - 11/11/13 at 10:13pm
post #1154 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

BTW, NEC is not doing well financially, the company as a whole has either been losing money or making VERY little in Net Profits. They actually might become the next casualty if they aren't careful.  The monitor industry takes a heavy beating since there are just too many mfg with too many products and most of them build up inventories and then they end up having to dump a lot of product at a loss.  Panasonic has been hit, Sharp has been hit.  Sony, etc., etc.  I know those 3D TVs a while back was a big mess, they didn't sell well.

 

I used to like NEC products, I don't have anything against them per se, but I think they offer too many products and that's just too costly to manage.  These companies that make little to no profits need to slim down their product offerings to the models that actually make decent profits.   They have about 50 different desktop monitors alone.  That's just ridiculous too many different models.  


I'm not going to argue msrp. Spectraview versions cost a bit more, but they include the colorimeter and software. What I linked was of the same type for monitor only, as it's sold in the US. In the UK spectraview and non-spectraview use different firmware, but it's different here. I don't expect that they are losing money on their most expensive units. Aside from that evidence suggests that the price of panels has come down or these guys have recouped their development costs. Most of the current top 27" displays came out in 2010. I think a couple came out toward the end of 2009, so we're not looking at launch pricing. It's just that Apple basically keeps it the same. They did include the thunderbolt docking hardware to add value to the total package. If you're looking for slim margins, you're more likely to find that issue on the low end models. Outside of televisions, Panasonic only makes specialty displays, like broadcast displays. If a business can afford a waveform deck, they can probably afford more than $2k for a display. That's cheap enough for a well paid freelance colorist. I don't think Sharp really deals with that market.

 

Anyway I'm not sure what it has to do with anything, as I would be surprised if they cut their more expensive displays. They did cut costs, but so did everyone else. That's why everything in desktop displays uses an LG panel now.

post #1155 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 


I'm not going to argue msrp. Spectraview versions cost a bit more, but they include the colorimeter and software. What I linked was of the same type for monitor only, as it's sold in the US. In the UK spectraview and non-spectraview use different firmware, but it's different here. I don't expect that they are losing money on their most expensive units. Aside from that evidence suggests that the price of panels has come down or these guys have recouped their development costs. Most of the current top 27" displays came out in 2010. I think a couple came out toward the end of 2009, so we're not looking at launch pricing. It's just that Apple basically keeps it the same. They did include the thunderbolt docking hardware to add value to the total package. If you're looking for slim margins, you're more likely to find that issue on the low end models. Outside of televisions, Panasonic only makes specialty displays, like broadcast displays. If a business can afford a waveform deck, they can probably afford more than $2k for a display. That's cheap enough for a well paid freelance colorist. I don't think Sharp really deals with that market.

 

Anyway I'm not sure what it has to do with anything, as I would be surprised if they cut their more expensive displays. They did cut costs, but so did everyone else. That's why everything in desktop displays uses an LG panel now.

Not all of the desktops are using LG, some are still using Samsung. I guess it depends on which model.  Apple doesn't  make it easy for us to tell which display mfg is being used in which models and product that we actually get.

 

I think I read a while back that Panasonic is going to focus more on mobile device panels rather than TVs.  Obviously whatever moves they make take a little while.  They are still making some of the best Plasma screen, which for some, are more desirable for TVs.

post #1156 of 1290

Hope they release the pricing for the BTO options soon. 

 

 

I would consider a 6 or 8 core machine with D300 and 32GB RAM and a 1TB SSD.  Drool...

 

However, I would prefer to wait for the first update and speed bump.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #1157 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 


Huh? I don't think I taught you that. I don't really offer much in the way of teaching unless you're referring to what I said about iOS hardware capability, but I do link to silly stuff like people playing cellos with lightsabers:D. That thing still makes me laugh.

Ooops, do many drugs, I meant to say DrBlank.

When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #1158 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post
 

Hope they release the pricing for the BTO options soon. 

 

 

I would consider a 6 or 8 core machine with D300 and 32GB RAM and a 1TB SSD.  Drool...

 

However, I would prefer to wait for the first update and speed bump.

 

Wow, a post that's actually on topic in this thread!

post #1159 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

Ooops, do many drugs, I meant to say DrBlank.

You really are pathetic Relic. Seriously, you need to start your own website and get off this one.  

post #1160 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

Not all of the desktops are using LG, some are still using Samsung. I guess it depends on which model.  Apple doesn't  make it easy for us to tell which display mfg is being used in which models and product that we actually get.

 

I think I read a while back that Panasonic is going to focus more on mobile device panels rather than TVs.  Obviously whatever moves they make take a little while.  They are still making some of the best Plasma screen, which for some, are more desirable for TVs.


Typically LG makes IPS when it comes to desktop displays intended for general use. I know Panasonic does make some IPS panels, but they seem to be relegated to highly specialized use cases. Mitsubishi and Hitachi ceased doing so long ago. Samsung comes up more in the notebooks and mobile devices. I was surprised to see their name come up at times with imacs, as IPS falls outside of their general territory. Samsung may have won the battle if PVA didn't have the gamma shift issues relative to viewing angle a few years ago. It lacked quite a few other problems.

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