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Apple throws out the rulebook for its unique next-gen Mac Pro - Page 17

post #641 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


If you configured the old Mac Pro like the new one, you'd have two GPUs taking up the two x16 slots and a PCIe SSD taking up one of the x4 slots. That would leave you with a single x4 PCIe slot that wouldn't have aux power so no HDX cards ( http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=323900 ) and you'd need an external RAID for bulk storage.

 

No, you don't. You can have have a hardware RAID card attached to the drive bays if you want hardware RAID.  As for the HDX it was solved with a $15 cable in that thread since the HDX is less than 50W draw and as long as you stay under 300W you're okay.  Not to mention that the HDX wasn't part of that daisy chain anyway.

 

Well, well, well...it seems the PCIe splitter cable I got from TigerDirect will work for this after all. Used one of the ATI 5780 cables from the B port on the logic board to the splitter and on to the card ports. So far so good...MP booted into MTL, PT10.3.3 and played the mp4 in a current session without issue. No extra fans getting hot and bothered like our old G4/5 class rigs. I've only run it for an hour or so, but I'll bang on it some more tonight

 

Moreover on a modernized "classic" Mac Pro form factor you'd have TB ports on the rear as well.

 

 

Quote:
It looks like it uses one of the larger optical units with power supply but these aren't necessary - you get affordable bus-powered optical drives and typically you'd only need a single Blu-Ray burner as it supports DVD too. A second bus-powered drive is needed for copying discs but not a common need.

 

If you use only one of the optical bays you have room for another HDD or SSD.

 

 

Quote:

People have to be realistic about how much it takes to match a MP. The mockup I posted a while ago shows a scenario closer to a MP:


.

 

Which STILL has a larger desktop footprint than the older Mac Pro design.   What are you going to do?  Precariously stack the Mac Pro above the RAID array?

post #642 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


It might not arrive this year but I think they'll have a Retina Thunderbolt display at $999 and at least one model of iMac with a Retina display by the end of 2014.

 

2014, I can by that, this year, no way.

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post #643 of 1290
Walter Biscardi showed off a video setup for iMacs:

http://www.biscardicreative.com/blog/2012/08/anatomy-of-an-imac-suite/

The hardware listed was a Behringer audio mixer, which would be the same on a MP:
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MON800.aspx

The AJA IOXT:
http://www.aja.com/en/products/io-xt/#overview

Broadcast Monitor, same on the MP:
http://www.flandersscientific.com/index/cm170w.php

and 1Gbit Ethernet adaptor for their storage (only used because they've found Apple's ethernet flakey):
http://www.small-tree.com/Thunderbolt_Products_for_Mac_OS_X_s/192.htm

They said they normally put MPs in a cooled cupboard so the iMac brings the heat into the editing room. The new MP would alleviate that problem.

The HDX audio and Rocket video cards have been shown to work fine in the chassis for people who use those. Ideally there would be dedicated TB products for those but some manufacturers might be waiting for TB2 because their products are really expensive. These setups are important but don't affect many people. It took RED 7 months to deal with 3,000 orders for their cameras (big productions only buy about 50 each tops and not every year). Avid isn't shipping more than 20,000 HDX cards in a year.
post #644 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

No, you don't. You can have have a hardware RAID card attached to the drive bays if you want hardware RAID.

Not if you had two GPUs, a PCIe SSD and an HDX card - you couldn't even support two high-end GPUs with HDX because of the power issue. You can now have two GPUs, PCIe SSD, multiple HDX cards, multiple Red Rocket cards plus adaptors. The old Mac Pro would support things like the Cubix:

http://www.cubix.com/catalog/buy-xpander-desktop

but that's $2800 and has a massive footprint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

As for the HDX it was solved with a $15 cable in that thread since the HDX is less than 50W draw and as long as you stay under 300W you're okay.

Splitting off power from a single high-end GPU isn't a solution that a lot of people with such expensive equipment are going to want to mess with. Some people just downgraded back to a 5770.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Moreover on a modernized "classic" Mac Pro form factor you'd have TB ports on the rear as well.

Potentially but it takes away lanes from the slots and it's only been put into desktop motherboards that have chips with IGPs so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Which STILL has a larger desktop footprint than the older Mac Pro design. What are you going to do? Precariously stack the Mac Pro above the RAID array?

Only slightly larger:

The Magma is 14.6" x 4.3", the Mac Pro is 6.6" x 6.6", the Pegasus is 9.3" x 7.4" = 175 sqi
The old Mac Pro was 18.7" x 8.1" = 151 sqi

I don't see how stacking the Magma on top of the Pegasus would be much more precarious than it sitting on the desk and you'd beat the MP footprint. They can go on the floor too or in another room.
post #645 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

 

The cheapest 4K monitor on the market is made by Asus, has a rez of 3840 x 2160 and cost's 5,000 dollars. 2,000 is highly improbable, especially from a company who historically has very high margins on their products.

Not sure where you are getting your numbers from; Amazon, Newegg & Tiger Direct all have the Asus PQ321Q 4K monitor for US$3,499.00…

 

I also said that a Retina Display from Apple should be at LEAST US2,000.00; and I emphasized the LEAST in the original post as well…

 

But given time & bulk ordering, Apple just might be able to do a 27" Retina Thunderbolt2 Display in 2014 for US2,499.00…

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post #646 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRonin View Post

Not sure where you are getting your numbers from; Amazon, Newegg & Tiger Direct all have the Asus PQ321Q 4K monitor for US$3,499.00…

 

I also said that a Retina Display from Apple should be at LEAST US2,000.00; and I emphasized the LEAST in the original post as well…

 

But given time & bulk ordering, Apple just might be able to do a 27" Retina Thunderbolt2 Display in 2014 for US2,499.00…

 

I got it from Asus's product announcement, great the price has dropped. Unless the price is 1,000 though I don't see many buying one.

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post #647 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Normally people would just use a single RAID drive.

 

That depends. If you're starting from scratch, yes. If, like me, you've accumulated external drives one at a time as needed, one winds up with what Phil illustrated. The drives stack very neatly, thank you, but the cluster of inflexible Firewire 800 cables and unruly pile of line lump power supplies make keeping it all tidy practically impossible. I just can't justify the cost of an array unit when I already have this stack of working storage with a resale value of roughly poodly.

 

Though I suppose if one were upgrading from an old pro with internal storage, one wouldn't have the stack of external drives us portable people tend to accumulate.

post #648 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

 

I got it from Asus's product announcement, great the price has dropped. Unless the price is 1,000 though I don't see many buying one.

Okay, I just went back & read both links you originally gave…

 

The first, from the Asus website, has NO mention of pricing…

 

The second, from Extremetech.com, has THEIR guesstimate on pricing, but nothing from Asus saying that this monitor is going to be 5 grand…

 

My three links to various vendors all are taken from the Asus product page for the monitor in question… In the 'where to buy' section…

 

Even if an Apple Retina Thunderbolt2 Display is around 3 grand, the ones who NEED it will buy it… If you are working with 4K video, you want a monitor that can display said video at full-rez, and 'a little extra around the edges' is nice for on-screen controls & such…

 

I see Apple releasing around 2.5 grand, with a price drop in a year or so to 2 grand…

 

Those who cannot afford the 2 (+) grand will go for the I/O spec-bumped Apple Thunderbolt2 Display (NON-Retina)…

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post #649 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

 

That depends. If you're starting from scratch, yes. If, like me, you've accumulated external drives one at a time as needed, one winds up with what Phil illustrated. The drives stack very neatly, thank you, but the cluster of inflexible Firewire 800 cables and unruly pile of line lump power supplies make keeping it all tidy practically impossible. I just can't justify the cost of an array unit when I already have this stack of working storage with a resale value of roughly poodly.

 

Though I suppose if one were upgrading from an old pro with internal storage, one wouldn't have the stack of external drives us portable people tend to accumulate.

Are folks still using their collection of old SCSI externals…? Their old Zip/Jaz drives…? People DO upgrade their equipment as needed… You already have external drives, a Thunderbolt > FireWire adapter will take care of you still using your externals until you decide to upgrade to a new TB2 RAID chassis… Depending on the HDDs in your current externals, you may just be able to move them to an empty TB2 chassis & continue on with the same JBOD you had all along…

 

And if you already have a collection of FireWire externals, then you already have the same octopus of cables; the new Mac Pro did not make that suddenly appear in your work space…

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post #650 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Walter Biscardi showed off a video setup for iMacs:

http://www.biscardicreative.com/blog/2012/08/anatomy-of-an-imac-suite/

The hardware listed was a Behringer audio mixer, which would be the same on a MP:
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MON800.aspx

The AJA IOXT:
http://www.aja.com/en/products/io-xt/#overview

Broadcast Monitor, same on the MP:
http://www.flandersscientific.com/index/cm170w.php

and 1Gbit Ethernet adaptor for their storage (only used because they've found Apple's ethernet flakey):
http://www.small-tree.com/Thunderbolt_Products_for_Mac_OS_X_s/192.htm

They said they normally put MPs in a cooled cupboard so the iMac brings the heat into the editing room. The new MP would alleviate that problem.

The HDX audio and Rocket video cards have been shown to work fine in the chassis for people who use those. Ideally there would be dedicated TB products for those but some manufacturers might be waiting for TB2 because their products are really expensive. These setups are important but don't affect many people. It took RED 7 months to deal with 3,000 orders for their cameras (big productions only buy about 50 each tops and not every year). Avid isn't shipping more than 20,000 HDX cards in a year.

I'm beginning to wonder if you really are Walter1eek.gif. Too much allergy medicine. Everything is funny right now.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


Dell still sells the 30"
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04&sku=225-4429


Unfortunately Apple doesn't, so now they don't have any matte displays anymore. I wonder if they'll make them again, presuming we can get a 4k monitor together with the new Pro.

 

I was unaware of that. I know a couple of Dell's displays. I don't currently know anyone who uses one. It's typically NEC and Eizo. If they aren't using one of those it's an Apple display, in some cases an old aluminum one that is well past its prime. I'm not insinuating that my personal experience indicates anything about the broader market. It's just what I know.

post #651 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRonin View Post

Are folks still using their collection of old SCSI externals…? Their old Zip/Jaz drives…? People DO upgrade their equipment as needed…

 

Really? That's freakin' fascinating. What the heck it has to do with what I wrote, I have no idea, but thanks for the update.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRonin View Post

And if you already have a collection of FireWire externals, then you already have the same octopus of cables; the new Mac Pro did not make that suddenly appear in your work space…

 

I don't recall ever implying any relationship between that scenario and the new Pro at all. Hang on, lemme go re-read what I wrote...

 

Okay, I'm back. I was right. I didn't suggest that this was a shortcoming of the new Mac Pro.

 

You can lower your shields. I have no idea what you think you're arguing against, but none of what I wrote was a criticism of the new Pro.

post #652 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

I'm beginning to wonder if you really are Walter. Too much allergy medicine. Everything is funny right now.

He makes some interesting posts. When the Mac Pro was lagging in updates, he tested alternatives and figured out how to make them work. He didn't like FCPX so went with Premiere Pro & Avid and will be testing out Smoke. He seems to have mostly ditched the idea of workstations in favour of iMacs besides a few for rendering performance and you can see why here:

http://www.biscardicreative.com/blog/2012/04/using-imacs-to-replace-desktop-workstations-a-consideration/

Interesting comments at the bottom too:

"I cut a 6 part, hour long series for Broadcast on an iMac without Thunderbolt and had very few problems with the machine. We had over 200 hours of ProRes 422 HQ footage, and we were delivering edits for Network approval every 72 hours. Rendering and Encoding short segments was not a problem, however when we had to render/dump out the 44 minute offline it took a really long time and we had quite a few FCP ‘General Errors’.
But the actual editing was pretty painless.

I also recently cut 7 commercials for Nike on an iMac (with the agency in the room) without any issues. I never felt the need for the MacPro on this job. Not even when I was using Mocha (AE CS5) to swap out live action elements with the client looking on. We also used Color to communicate the ‘Looks’ that the agency wanted, to the Colorist doing the Final Grade. Again no issues with ProRes footage. But try working with .r3d files natively and the iMac really struggles. So i think that for an offline workflow with HD Footage an iMac is a really good fit."

Of course the PC crowd jumps in eventually in the comments to explain all the better deals. A certain group of people just can't accept Apple being seen positively in any light.
post #653 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


He makes some interesting posts. When the Mac Pro was lagging in updates, he tested alternatives and figured out how to make them work. He didn't like FCPX so went with Premiere Pro & Avid and will be testing out Smoke. He seems to have mostly ditched the idea of workstations in favour of iMacs besides a few for rendering performance and you can see why here:

http://www.biscardicreative.com/blog/2012/04/using-imacs-to-replace-desktop-workstations-a-consideration/

Interesting comments at the bottom too:

"I cut a 6 part, hour long series for Broadcast on an iMac without Thunderbolt and had very few problems with the machine. We had over 200 hours of ProRes 422 HQ footage, and we were delivering edits for Network approval every 72 hours. Rendering and Encoding short segments was not a problem, however when we had to render/dump out the 44 minute offline it took a really long time and we had quite a few FCP ‘General Errors’.
But the actual editing was pretty painless.

 

 

His blog post still suggests big iron for a small shop with only a couple stations. It's about what I recall reading last time. He started with the imacs for offline workflows and slip edits. He doesn't mention getting rid of big iron entirely.

 

From the blog post

Quote:

And while they might cost a bit more, I think our “Big Iron” systems will be Wintel moving forward.  Just too many good options out there vs the limited choices from Apple.   And who knows, we just might be running OS X on a PC soon.

 

and

 

 

Quote:

If you are a one man band, a 1 or 2 machine shop, then you really want to buy THE fastest and most powerful system you can afford because you’re asking that machine to do everything for you.   Edit, Graphics, Render, Output, etc….   I always recommend to anyone that’s a single or two machine shop to have a powerful desktop system unless you absolutely must have the portability of a laptop for your work.   Desktop machines, while much more expensive when configured for video editing, will always give you the fastest performance.   So keep in mind that my thoughts here are more about me replacing a series of machines vs. a smaller shop that might only need to replace one or two systems.

So what do I give up by dropping a bunch of Big Iron machines in favor of the iMac?   Render speed primarily.  Big iron will always render faster than an all-in-one ever will because there’s a lot more room for processors and large power supplies to drive those processors.  Not to mention a ton more RAM for the same reasons.   But for the type of work we’re doing day in, day out, we don’t need super fast rendering all the time on every single workstation.

It's clear he sees a spot for them. I like his posts, but they aren't quite so polarizing in favor of "must be all imacs". One man shops have mostly gone for mac pros in my experience, although I have seen some imacs since the core2duo units. There aren't as many, but I've known at least a couple graphic designers who used them. I hate any amount of screen shininess. As I mentioned a few months ago, I haven't looked at the new ones in person. The examples suggest a definite improvement, but displays are a much more complicated issue than is sometimes suggested. Note how that 17" broadcast display referenced in the thread was "only" $3200.

 

Quote:
also recently cut 7 commercials for Nike on an iMac (with the agency in the room) without any issues. I never felt the need for the MacPro on this job. Not even when I was using Mocha (AE CS5) to swap out live action elements with the client looking on. We also used Color to communicate the ‘Looks’ that the agency wanted, to the Colorist doing the Final Grade. Again no issues with ProRes footage. But try working with .r3d files natively and the iMac really struggles. So i think that for an offline workflow with HD Footage an iMac is a really good fit."

I wonder if he'll try the new mac pro for finishing work.

 

 

Quote:
Of course the PC crowd jumps in eventually in the comments to explain all the better deals. A certain group of people just can't accept Apple being seen positively in any light.

It varies. I mean if they're talking about working solutions, discussion isn't a bad thing. What I hate most is ideological arguments, which is why I generally try to cite what makes the most sense for me. I have to carry a notebook at times. If I was looking at the imac, I would probably be tempted to look at going to notebook + large display, as I end up having to carry a notebook anyway. The biggest advantage the imac has for me there is double the ram capacity, and that is huge. Ram is one of those things where you still get smoother performance beyond the minimum amount required to load files of a particular size. It often influences what features you enable and overall workflow in an effort to maintain fluidity. The sources you quote are a lot better reference than myself for editing. I do very little of that, and I'm certainly not cutting video for ad campaigns.

 

 

Edit: oh man he must spend a fortune on cables

 

 

Quote:

For Machine Control, we already use Cat 6 connectors to all the machines. At the current time we have 5 Cat 6 cables running into each edit suite for the Gefen DVI / USB Extenders. We won’t need all of those anymore so we can repurpose the Cat 6 cable for machine control.

Same with our shared storage which is all connected via Cat 6. We’ll just repurpose one of those 5 cables to connect to the SAN.

 

 

Further down he also mentions they stuck to big iron for finishing systems, as I expected.


Edited by hmm - 7/10/13 at 8:55pm
post #654 of 1290

To all the naysayers, this shows (hopefully) that the current iMac is a pretty decent machine ¥capable of doing pretty good work.  Some guy recently posted that somebody would be just doing mail and surfing so the iMac would suffice...  Go figure.

 

The new MacPro will just be awesome.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #655 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

To all the naysayers, this shows (hopefully) that the current iMac is a pretty decent machine ¥capable of doing pretty good work.  Some guy recently posted that somebody would be just doing mail and surfing so the iMac would suffice...  Go figure.
I can do that with my iPad, in fact I'm editing this right now on an iPad. That doesn't mean though that iPad is ideal for every surfing and mail need. Likewise iMac is leass than ideal for many users computer needs. The fact that these sights go on at length to explain how they got the iMac to work for them ought to indicate that it is less than ideal for some uses
Quote:
The new MacPro will just be awesome.

Well this I can agree with, this especially the case if you are already a person that can find the iMac limiting. However I suspect the new iMac will pretty awesome also, even the Mini. It is all about the lower power chips enabling significantly better GPU performance at no loss of CPU performance or excessive thermal gain.
post #656 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

His blog post still suggests big iron for a small shop with only a couple stations. It's about what I recall reading last time. He started with the imacs for offline workflows and slip edits. He doesn't mention getting rid of big iron entirely.

Further down he also mentions they stuck to big iron for finishing systems, as I expected.

Workstations help when it comes to rendering and encoding as they are up to 3x faster than iMacs and the dual-GPUs in the MP will help with Resolve as it works with OpenCL:

http://barefeats.com/gpu7950.html

The 680MX in the iMac would still do the job and the encoding/rendering would just take a bit longer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

The examples suggest a definite improvement, but displays are a much more complicated issue than is sometimes suggested. Note how that 17" broadcast display referenced in the thread was "only" $3200.

The iMac's internal display isn't much more important a consideration than a Macbook Pro's. If it's not good enough, you get an external display.
post #657 of 1290

Marvin wrote:

 

"A certain group of people just can't accept Apple being seen positively in any light."

 

 

 

Recently, I read this on MacRumors. It seems to sum it up: 

 

"As an actual professional that uses these machines, I'm getting really sick and tired of seeing people assume what it is that I need or want to implement in my business. Particularly when they clearly have no idea what a professional workflow is like."

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post #658 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


Workstations help when it comes to rendering and encoding as they are up to 3x faster than iMacs and the dual-GPUs in the MP will help with Resolve as it works with OpenCL:

http://barefeats.com/gpu7950.html

It's too bad they didn't release a 7970 mac edition considering the price.

Quote:
The 680MX in the iMac would still do the job and the encoding/rendering would just take a bit longer.
The iMac's internal display isn't much more important a consideration than a Macbook Pro's. If it's not good enough, you get an external display.

My point was that I would own a notebook anyway, it just wouldn't be quite as up to date.

post #659 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

It's too bad they didn't release a 7970 mac edition considering the price.

I wish Mac's weren't so damn hard to upgrade, I would love to see the iMac have the same opened design as an HP Z1.

 

 

 

Then adding in your AMD 7970 would be a trivial thing.

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post #660 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

I wish Mac's weren't so damn hard to upgrade, I would love to see the iMac have the same opened design as an HP Z1.

Then adding in your AMD 7970 would be a trivial thing.

This guy who bought one doesn't seem to think so:

http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/Workstations-z-series-xw-series/HP-Z1-Upgrading-Graphics-Card-PLEASE-HELP/td-p/5941449#.Ud8wLL8yEnU

"the cards for the Z1 are of HP proprietary design and there is no question of finding something else that will conveniently just fit anyway.

What we are talking about here is buying some HP replacement parts and making up a pseudo HP card by putting another board into the HP replacement housing. Although this doesn't appear too tricky, it's more than your normal PC upgrade.

And there is risk that it won't work at all, will not work properly, will overheat, not control the fan appropriately or whatever.

The safe option is to buy an HP Quadro graphics card, but to get one with decent gaming performance, likely it will cost nigh on as much as your Z1 did."

These guys helpfully try recommending installing a 680M MXM card:

http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=255757

Now, the lowest price for a base Z1 seems to be around $2500 with a Core-i3 and no dedicated GPU so let's add a quad-i5, 8GB RAM, entry dedicated GPU = $3,000.

The quad-i7 iMac with a 680MX, even faster than a 680M is $2350. Is the empty space inside the Z1 to store all the sadness buyers feel once they realise how bad a deal they got?
post #661 of 1290

I wasn't talking about owning a Z1, I just wish the iMac was as easy to open and upgrade. You have to admit that the internal design is kind of cool.

 

Okay so looking around you can insert a MXM 3.0 card in it, any of these would fit,

 

http://stores.ebay.ca/Razors-Edge-by-Eurocom-Notebooks/MXM-Video-cards-/_i.html?_fsub=1558582010

 

No doubt their expensive, entry level Xeon model is 2350.00 Core i5 is 2060.00.

 

http://www.amazon.com/HP-D3J70UT-All---One-Workstation/dp/B00CD7WBCS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373583452&sr=8-1&keywords=hp+z1

 

Add 16GB and a Quadro K3000 and your at 3,200.00, that;s not cheap.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Hewlett-Packard-C3G85AT-Nvidia-Quadro/dp/B00ARI1KX6/ref=sr_1_35?ie=UTF8&qid=1373583765&sr=8-35&keywords=hp+z1+workstation

 

 

But again I wasn't talking about owning one, just that I would prefer the opened design. Oh and I read the thread, the guy wasn't sad, he just wanted to know his upgrade options for video cards, as it looks there are quite a few.


Edited by Relic - 7/11/13 at 4:09pm
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post #662 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

I wish Mac's weren't so damn hard to upgrade, I would love to see the iMac have the same opened design as an HP Z1.

 

 

 

Then adding in your AMD 7970 would be a trivial thing.

I have brought up the same thing before. It's always "use thunderbolt if your drive dies" yet thunderbolt it also suggested for many other things. The imac has 2 ports. If I wasn't comfortable swapping out a drive, it would make me a lot more hesitant to buy a machine. I hate flaky drives more than anything. By the way IIRC the K3000m was defined by using different memory than the 1000 and 2000. That amazon price is a lot cheaper than what some oems charged for the upgrade. IT was generally more than twice that on cto pricing. Some people have mentioned upgrading the imac with mxm type cards, but in most cases I doubt you gain much. There was a thread elsewhere about upgrading a 6770m to a 6970m. For what it cost the person asking could have purchased it with the higher end option initially, unless of course they were talented at scavenging tech auctions for things such as used tesla cards.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

I wasn't talking about owning a Z1, I just wish the iMac was as easy to open and upgrade. You have to admit that the internal design is kind of cool.

 

Okay so looking around you can insert a MXM 3.0 card in it, any of these would fit,

 

I think it's cool. I've referenced it before. Initially HP claimed they would offer dreamcolor display upgrades with that one, but I never saw pricing on that. Those displays may be abandonware at this point. They were HP's attempt at a low end broadcast display.

post #663 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


This guy who bought one doesn't seem to think so:

http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/Workstations-z-series-xw-series/HP-Z1-Upgrading-Graphics-Card-PLEASE-HELP/td-p/5941449#.Ud8wLL8yEnU

"the cards for the Z1 are of HP proprietary design and there is no question of finding something else that will conveniently just fit anyway.
 

The person who bought one misunderstood the intent of the design if they were expecting a gpu ugprade to be simple. You're limited to mobile parts anyway. The difference isn't as great as it was. It's often 30-50% today comparing to top mobile gpus. It used to be well over 100%. The 680mx is basically a very underclocked version of the 680. The Z1 is designed to be easily serviceable with HP parts so as to minimize downtime. The machine doesn't have to go anywhere. It wasn't really designed to accommodate upgrades. I liked the design overall, but the ratio of cost to specs is much worse than some of their other machines. The best deals with HP tend to be stock configurations, as their cto pricing is madness.

post #664 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Marvin wrote:

"A certain group of people just can't accept Apple being seen positively in any light."
Well there certainly is some negative energy around Apple in the investment community.
Quote:

Recently, I read this on MacRumors. It seems to sum it up: 



 



"As an actual professional that uses these machines, I'm getting really sick and tired of seeing people assume what it is that I need or want to implement in my business. Particularly when they clearly have no idea what a professional workflow is like."



The problem with the above comment and often very similar ones, is that it is a very self centered comment and dismisses the whole idea of mass production. Frankly people like this need to be told repeatedly how to run their business if only to run up their blood pressure. To be a successful product the New Mac Pro needs to appeal to a broad array of potential users. Frankly to far more people than the current model does. It is a reality of the industry that mass production helps control costs and assure profitability.

As to someone's personal work flow, frankly screw them! Apple can't possibly build a custom tailored PC for each and every customer out there. This is fundamental to the type of business Apple is engaged in, they effectively mass produce high performance computers! The Air is an excellent example here, by tailoring the machine to a limited use case they can offer excellent performance at a low price point. This is exactly where they have gone wrong with the old Mac Pro over the last few years, it became a high priced low performance machine in its base configuration.

In a nut shell all of these people demanding that Apple tailor a Mac Pro to their requirements are asking for the impossible. If Apple would attempt to do so they would suffer in the marketplace as they have with the old Mac Pro design. When 99% of your market doesn't need some of the expensive features being demanded, trying to support that one percent alienates the other 99%.
post #665 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

The problem with the above comment and often very similar ones, is that it is a very self centered comment and dismisses the whole idea of mass production. Frankly people like this need to be told repeatedly how to run their business if only to run up their blood pressure.

That particular comment seems to be in support of what Apple did. It was said against people who suggested the design Apple went with was prosumer (about halfway down):

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1600248

Some of the points include that businesses use network storage so bulk internal storage typically isn't a factor. The edit suite mentioned above has a 48TB RAID, which can be expanded to more than double and is shared by 18 workstations:

http://www.small-tree.com/Articles.asp?Id=400

This helps with data protection, physical security and is needed for collaboration.

Concerning the CPU, when Phil said double the CPU performance of the last-gen, I think he meant that each CPU has double the performance of the old CPUs. In other words, the fastest single CPU they offered before was 6-core and now it's 12-core but because there's only 1 CPU, the overall performance will be at least as fast as the old 12-core but they can offer it cheaper.

To some people, that compromise will seem a little prosumer but as I've said before, they wouldn't offer two 12-cores anyway because they are too expensive. Apple just has to offer good value and again, people have to consider the roadmap. Intel has increased core-count by double in 3 years. If they do that again, you get a 24-core Mac Pro in 3 years. While HP/Dell may offer a 24-core this year, the price points will be up at the $10k mark, which hardly appeals to anyone and those who invest in that won't upgrade often. For people invested in the Mac eco-system, there will be more regular upgrades needed, which is better for Apple and people who absolutely need more cores just now simply buy two or more workstations.
post #666 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post



The hardware listed was a Behringer audio mixer, which would be the same on a MP:
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MON800.aspx

 


Just replying because of the mention of Behringer.

 

Recently had to cancel two Behringer orders because their stuff just isn't getting over to the US. My distributor mentioned that he has canceled lots of Behringer orders because of supply issues.

 

Installing sound equipment in two new schools and they have to be done like yesterday. I guess the boat was an extra slow one from China.

post #667 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

The problem with the above comment and often very similar ones, is that it is a very self centered comment

 

How else would you have one view one's own business? I'd cut you some slack on that one as you're not self-employed, but really it's just common sense. One by nature of the process quite obviously looks inward when evaluating what is needed to grown one's business and make money.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

[...] and dismisses the whole idea of mass production.

 

I see. So Ford makes only one version of it's overwhelmingly successful workhouse, the F150, is that right? They don't offer versions with heavy transmissions for those who wish to tow things and a lighter version for those who carry less and value fuel economy? Versions that are close to the ground for easy loading and highway efficiency and versions that are raised up for ground clearance on unpaved work sites?

 

Seriously? Mass production can't handle variation? I'd say you're very clearly mistaken.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Frankly people like this need to be told repeatedly how to run their business if only to run up their blood pressure.

 

Jeepers Wiz, did your wife run off with an artist or something? Your overt hostility towards anyone who isn't thoroughly satisfied with anything Apple makes is puzzling.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

As to someone's personal work flow, frankly screw them!

 

I think this may be a sign that the potential for useful dialog may be diminishing, but suffice to say that a resounding "F*ck you!" to your customer base is not the way to grow profits.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Apple can't possibly build a custom tailored PC for each and every customer out there.

 

There is obviously a LOT of ground between "You'll take what we give you and LIKE it!" and "custom tailored for each and every customer." The world of production allows for ample shades of grey, not just black or white.

 

Apple absolutely CAN provide options without adversely affecting profit.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

The Air is an excellent example here, by tailoring the machine to a limited use case they can offer excellent performance at a low price point.

 

But we're not talking about a product in the Air's category. We're talking about the top-of-the-line workstation. It faces a MUCH wider palette of usage models and sells to a market that is much less price sensitive. There's much more latitude with a Pro than with an Air, AND assuming a one-size-fits-all stance in that market is suicide.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

When 99% of your market doesn't need some of the expensive features being demanded, trying to support that one percent alienates the other 99%.

 

Nonsense. All they have to do is provide the expensive feature as an option and charge appropriately for it. It's not even difficult, much less impossible. Besides, the demographic that buys the Mac Pro is hardly 99/1. Probably more like 50/50.

 

Your primary battle cry, aside from insulting anyone who doesn't worship at the Apple product table, seems to be profitability, so let me ask you this:

 

If Apple continues to restrict the hardware environment so tightly that it's just not a good choice for many users, how will THAT affect profitability? Is it better to sell 100,000 units with half being BTO, or sell only 50,000?

 

People in different situations have differing needs. Even t-shirts come in more than one size.

post #668 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTac View Post

\Recently had to cancel two Behringer orders because their stuff just isn't getting over to the US. My distributor mentioned that he has canceled lots of Behringer orders because of supply issues.

 

Thank Dog for that! The less Behringer gear in the field the better! Maybe people will be forced to buy something half-decent.

post #669 of 1290

Theoretically, Apple could replace the ENTIRE Desktop lineup with this new Mac Pro design…!!!

 

Three 'performance sectors' in the new Mac Pro…

 

One would always be filled by a CPU; be it i5s on the low-end (with IGP), i7s on the mid-end (with IGP) or Xeons on the high-end (without IGP)…

 

Second 'sector'; low to mid-end discrete consumer-class GPUs, mid to high-end discrete consumer-class GPUs or a full range of workstation-class GPUs…

 

Also in second 'sector' is the PCIe Flash RAM SSD (boot, apps, storage)…

 

Third 'sector' (this is where things change up); one or two 2.5" HDDs, matching mid to high-end discrete consumer-class GPUs (yes, SLI/CrossFire for gamers!) or matching high-end workstation-class GPUs…

 

As seen in the second 'sector', the third (excepting the one with the single or dual 2.5" HDD option) includes a slot for a second PCIe Flash RAM SSD…

 

Upgrade the I/O on the Thunderbolt Display to USB3 & TB2, change the screen 'finish' to match the newer iMacs, same pricing…

 

Release the All New, Bargain Priced 21.5" Thunderbolt 2 Display; US$599.00…

 

Release the All New 32" Retina 5K Display (5120 x 2880) for US$2,249.00…

 

No more Mac mini, iMac or Mac Pro; just the Mac…

 

Configure as desired, add monitor of choice…

 

After all; most of their 'PC' sales are supposed to be laptops; so leave the multi SKUs there (which you kinda have to, with the screen all attached and such) and par the Desktop line down to one highly configurable unit…! ;^p

 

Apple would have a full range of suggested configurations on the online store, but they would all fall under the same SKU; meaning every new Mac was BTO…! Hey, Made (Assembled) In USA, an efficient design, quick turn-around on custom orders…!?!

 

Bonus idea that just hit me; optional (BTO) integration of the SuperDrive into the 21.5" & 27" Thunderbolt 2 Displays and the 32" Retina 5K Displays…!!! This would also be something that could be easily added later by the end-user…


Edited by MacRonin - 7/12/13 at 11:30pm
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post #670 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


That particular comment seems to be in support of what Apple did. It was said against people who suggested the design Apple went with was prosumer (about halfway down):

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1600248

I never liked the pro vs prosumer debate. It's just a weird abstraction arguing names rather than requirements or desired features. End rant..

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRonin View Post


 

Release the All New 32" Retina 5K Display (5120 x 2880) for US$2,249.00…

 

It's difficult for me to picture one window scaled that large, and the specific reason others quoted that resolution was due to it matching the 27" doubled in each direction. It may just be me, but I don't see 32" becoming a standard for desk monitors. The way these things work, I find a secondary display to be better for some things beyond the 24-27" size.

post #671 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

I never liked the pro vs prosumer debate. It's just a weird abstraction arguing names rather than requirements or desired features. End rant..

 

Excellent point. I don't know if I've been guilty of that (probably), but next time I'm tempted to make a meaningless generalization instead of focussing on specifics I'll remember your post.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

The way these things work, I find a secondary display to be better for some things beyond the 24-27" size.

 

I understand what you're saying, but I'd be inclined to at least try it. I find having a boundary area between two monitors distracting. Then again, I've never worked with a giant monitor so maybe I'd hate that more.

post #672 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

I never liked the pro vs prosumer debate. It's just a weird abstraction arguing names rather than requirements or desired features. End rant..
It's difficult for me to picture one window scaled that large, and the specific reason others quoted that resolution was due to it matching the 27" doubled in each direction. It may just be me, but I don't see 32" becoming a standard for desk monitors. The way these things work, I find a secondary display to be better for some things beyond the 24-27" size.

Wow 32', who makes those? I almost pulled the trigger on a 27" Apple Monitor until I saw the 29” NEC MultiSync EA294WMi, it was 300 CHF cheaper and just gorgeous. I really think Apple needs relook it's pricing for their monitors, they just aren't very competitively price, actually far from it. The LG monitor which uses the exact same LCD display is now 500 dollars less.

My NEC MultiSync EA294WMi



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post #673 of 1290

I think the one thing folks keep forgetting/ignoring is that the current 27" Apple Thunderbolt Display is not just a monitor…

 

It is also a Thunderbolt docking station; with USB2, FireWire, Gigabit Ethernet & Thunderbolt connectivity…

 

It also has stereo speakers, an iSight/FaceTime camera & microphone…

 

It also provides a charging solution for your laptop, if that is what you are attaching it to…

 

So, a good bit of functionality/added value beyond just the display part of the equation…!

 

As for the musings on a 32" model, why not…? Apple used to do the 30" Cinema Display, why not a 32" 5K display…?

 

Off the top of my head, pro video & medical imaging come to mind as two markets for such a beast…

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post #674 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

How else would you have one view one's own business? I'd cut you some slack on that one as you're not self-employed, but really it's just common sense. One by nature of the process quite obviously looks inward when evaluating what is needed to grown one's business and make money.
Unless you have a pretty trivial business it is almost impossible to buy exactly what you need to get the advantage you want. It isn't uncommon where I work to buy the closest fit tooling wise and them modify it to do the job you want the way you want.
Quote:



I see. So Ford makes only one version of it's overwhelmingly successful workhouse, the F150, is that right? They don't offer versions with heavy transmissions for those who wish to tow things and a lighter version for those who carry less and value fuel economy? Versions that are close to the ground for easy loading and highway efficiency and versions that are raised up for ground clearance on unpaved work sites?
Apple will most likely offer variations of this Mac Pro, the "up to" phrases in the online documentation pretty much assure that. What Ford doesn't do for its customers is offer highly tailored models of their pickups for specific usages. That they leave to specialist in the market that change a good penny for their additions to the platform.
Quote:
Seriously? Mass production can't handle variation? I'd say you're very clearly mistaken.
Not the variation commonly being asked for with respect to the Mac Pro.
Quote:

Jeepers Wiz, did your wife run off with an artist or something? Your overt hostility towards anyone who isn't thoroughly satisfied with anything Apple makes is puzzling.
The hostility is directed at people whome have this expectation that Apple must serve their specific needs no matter what. There are many things about Apple and their product line ups that frustrate and at times piss me off but I don't go around suggesting that Apple make a specific variant just for me. Even when it comes to the XMac it is more about a product that would be attractive to a significant number of customers.
Quote:


I think this may be a sign that the potential for useful dialog may be diminishing, but suffice to say that a resounding "F*ck you!" to your customer base is not the way to grow profits.
The ability for useful dialog went out the door when people started complaining about the new Mac Pros impact on their workflow. It isn't that new technology doesn't impact workflow, it will, just that it is your responsibility to adapt to the change and not make a big scene about it.

Technology changes and sometimes you have to change with it. I can remember back to the time when dot matrix printers started to become hard to get. One person I knew was fretting about his loss of the ability to print two part forms. He was more resistant to workflow changes even if those changes might lead to actual improvements in workflow. I'm seeing the same mentality here and frankly it is at best regressive.

Apple hasn't given its customers a FU, but rather an opportunity to move forward.
Quote:





There is obviously a LOT of ground between "You'll take what we give you and LIKE it!" and "custom tailored for each and every customer." The world of production allows for ample shades of grey, not just black or white.

Apple absolutely CAN provide options without adversely affecting profit.
Apple is effectively giving people more options with this Mac Pro than in their previous machines. That people don't see this contimpnues to amaze me.
Quote:





But we're not talking about a product in the Air's category. We're talking about the top-of-the-line workstation. It faces a MUCH wider palette of usage models and sells to a market that is much less price sensitive. There's much more latitude with a Pro than with an Air, AND assuming a one-size-fits-all stance in that market is suicide.
This one size fits all view of the new Mac Pro is just asinine. This new Mac Pro is highly configurable, more so than its previous machine. Rather it is a machine that is adaptable to a wider array of users than ever before.
Quote:







Nonsense. All they have to do is provide the expensive feature as an option and charge appropriately for it. It's not even difficult, much less impossible. Besides, the demographic that buys the Mac Pro is hardly 99/1. Probably more like 50/50.
This is exactly what the new Mac Pro allows them to do. Expansion is an option handled by external devices. As for the internal machine I expect that it will be available in multiple configurations, most likely Apples normal good, better and best lineup. The variations here will be in CPU and GPU configurations.

As to people using internal expansion on the Mac Pro I highly doubt it gets anywhere near 50/50 even including installing a disk array. Remove disk arrays from consideration and you will come awfully close to the 99/1 ratio. Again there is a bias in these forums that seem to indicate that the only real users of the Mac Pro are those in the audio visual fields. That simply isn't true. Even within that field though not everybody has gone with massive amounts of internal hardware.
Quote:

Your primary battle cry, aside from insulting anyone who doesn't worship at the Apple product table, seems to be profitability, so let me ask you this:
The goal isn't to insult people but rather to get them to look outside of their habitual behaviors and at least look at the new Mac Pro with fresh eyes.
Quote:
If Apple continues to restrict the hardware environment so tightly that it's just not a good choice for many users, how will THAT affect profitability? Is it better to sell 100,000 units with half being BTO, or sell only 50,000?
The hardware environment isn't restricted if anything it is more open. Continuously repeating this theme doesn't make it true. This new Mac Pro is a significant step forward, not backward as you imply. As far as profitability goes it is pretty obvious that the old machine wasn't cutting the mustard in that respect.

Will this machine do better? Hard to say at this point when costs aren't even know. I will say this though, this new machine has a far greater chance at success than the previous model.
Quote:
People in different situations have differing needs. Even t-shirts come in more than one size.
This is certainly true and it is exactly what the new Mac Pro accels at. When it ships I doubt there will be a better machine on the market for meeting a wide array of user needs.
post #675 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

 

Excellent point. I don't know if I've been guilty of that (probably), but next time I'm tempted to make a meaningless generalization instead of focussing on specifics I'll remember your post.

Awesome. I was actually a positive influence for once1biggrin.gif. I thought I was only capable of corruption. I've definitely made the same mistake, but I don't think the OP of that thread understood it. I just hate what becomes a debate of semantics rather than what offers the best solution, and I think these things need to at least acknowledge the present market. Given that the mac pro was a preview for late this year, they may not see it really picking up prior to 2015. I think they're treating it as a slow moving market where any given design has to accommodate a long design cycle. It doesn't mean I approve of skipping an entire processor generation when the cpus in question don't even stay on a 12 month cycle.

 

Quote:

I understand what you're saying, but I'd be inclined to at least try it. I find having a boundary area between two monitors distracting. Then again, I've never worked with a giant monitor so maybe I'd hate that more.

 

You know it depends on your workflow. If you have a UI heavy application that consumes the entire display, you may want a very large display to accommodate the actual work area + additional elements. 3d packages are often that way if you ever use the quad view layouts. I tend to use older displays as secondary monitors just to hold notes and reference. If I place those on the primary display, there's always that annoying thing of trying to position windows and overlap issues. F3 can help, but it's still annoying. When the display gets too big, it's also annoying. If you use a graphics tablet the mapping becomes weird. If you use a mouse, you end with a high level of mouse acceleration, which I find annoying. I like to be able to sense how far I must move something. Enormous screens also put a lot to peripheral vision. You aren't looking over at something to check reference so much as you have to scan a very large primary working area. They had 30" 16: 10 displays before and went down to 27" 16:9. It's hard for me to believe that they really intend to go go way up again, especially with something that is doubled from the current screen. I would find 4K much more likely if the panels were brought down in price by cherry picking A+ units from those used in televisions. I don't see them going larger ahead of everyone else as an experiment, as Apple and other companies already did that experiment in the early to mid 2000s.

 

Anyway you might be right. I just wanted to offer my own reasoning on what I view as a concluded experiment. I have dealt with both the 30" Apple cinema display and the PVA eizo version, so I know what they look like. I didn't personally own either.
 

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post


Wow 32', who makes those? I almost pulled the trigger on a 27" Apple Monitor until I saw the 29” NEC MultiSync EA294WMi, it was 300 CHF cheaper and just gorgeous. I really think Apple needs relook it's pricing for their monitors, they just aren't very competitively price, actually far from it. The LG monitor which uses the exact same LCD display is now 500 dollars less.

My NEC MultiSync EA294WMi

 

I've used NEC. In fact I still own one. The thing is immortal even if it's beyond where I can calibrate it properly at this point. What's interesting with the one you linked is the ability to position multiple windows on one screen. I wish we had better functionality for doing that, but extremely wide formats aren't the norm.

post #676 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

I've used NEC. In fact I still own one. The thing is immortal even if it's beyond where I can calibrate it properly at this point. What's interesting with the one you linked is the ability to position multiple windows on one screen. I wish we had better functionality for doing that, but extremely wide formats aren't the norm.

I'm a big fan of this NEC monitor, the colours are very vibrant and warm, it has tons of inputs and it pivots when I'm reading a really long forum thread, built in speakers kind of suck though. The best feature about this monitor and the real big reason why I bought it is that you can display multiple images from different video sources, like PIP on a TV.

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post #677 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRonin View Post

I think the one thing folks keep forgetting/ignoring is that the current 27" Apple Thunderbolt Display is not just a monitor…

It is also a Thunderbolt docking station; with USB2, FireWire, Gigabit Ethernet & Thunderbolt connectivity…

It also has stereo speakers, an iSight/FaceTime camera & microphone…

It also provides a charging solution for your laptop, if that is what you are attaching it to…

So, a good bit of functionality/added value beyond just the display part of the equation…!

As for the musings on a 32" model, why not…? Apple used to do the 30" Cinema Display, why not a 32" 5K display…?

Off the top of my head, pro video & medical imaging come to mind as two markets for such a beast…

Oh don't get me wrong the Apple Display is definitely uber cool, just wasn't worth the extra money for me. Not when the NEC screen quality was better, display width is like two monitors in one without the ugly bezel in the middle, in fact you can display two video sources at once, in my case OSX on the left and Linux on the right.

I almost bought a PC Illuminate 4x24 Super HD 3840 x 2160 Quad Multi-Monitor LCD Display;



IBM has a new 4k monitor for about 1,500 bucks now, IBM T221 22.2";



I think I will stick with the NEC for at least a few years though, I'm toying with the idea of adding 2 more for a total of 3, at 700 a piece they're not super expensive.

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post #678 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


Unless you have a pretty trivial business it is almost impossible to buy exactly what you need to get the advantage you want. It isn't uncommon where I work to buy the closest fit tooling wise and them modify it to do the job you want the way you want.
Apple will most likely offer variations of this Mac Pro, the "up to" phrases in the online documentation pretty much assure that. What Ford doesn't do for its customers is offer highly tailored models of their pickups for specific usages. That they leave to specialist in the market that change a good penny for their additions to the platform.
Not the variation commonly being asked for with respect to the Mac Pro.

The hostility is directed at people whome have this expectation that Apple must serve their specific needs no matter what. There are many things about Apple and their product line ups that frustrate and at times piss me off but I don't go around suggesting that Apple make a specific variant just for me. Even when it comes to the XMac it is more about a product that would be attractive to a significant number of customers.
The ability for useful dialog went out the door when people started complaining about the new Mac Pros impact on their workflow. It isn't that new technology doesn't impact workflow, it will, just that it is your responsibility to adapt to the change and not make a big scene about it.

Technology changes and sometimes you have to change with it. I can remember back to the time when dot matrix printers started to become hard to get. One person I knew was fretting about his loss of the ability to print two part forms. He was more resistant to workflow changes even if those changes might lead to actual improvements in workflow. I'm seeing the same mentality here and frankly it is at best regressive.

Apple hasn't given its customers a FU, but rather an opportunity to move forward.
Apple is effectively giving people more options with this Mac Pro than in their previous machines. That people don't see this contimpnues to amaze me.
This one size fits all view of the new Mac Pro is just asinine. This new Mac Pro is highly configurable, more so than its previous machine. Rather it is a machine that is adaptable to a wider array of users than ever before.
This is exactly what the new Mac Pro allows them to do. Expansion is an option handled by external devices. As for the internal machine I expect that it will be available in multiple configurations, most likely Apples normal good, better and best lineup. The variations here will be in CPU and GPU configurations.

As to people using internal expansion on the Mac Pro I highly doubt it gets anywhere near 50/50 even including installing a disk array. Remove disk arrays from consideration and you will come awfully close to the 99/1 ratio. Again there is a bias in these forums that seem to indicate that the only real users of the Mac Pro are those in the audio visual fields. That simply isn't true. Even within that field though not everybody has gone with massive amounts of internal hardware.
The goal isn't to insult people but rather to get them to look outside of their habitual behaviors and at least look at the new Mac Pro with fresh eyes.
The hardware environment isn't restricted if anything it is more open. Continuously repeating this theme doesn't make it true. This new Mac Pro is a significant step forward, not backward as you imply. As far as profitability goes it is pretty obvious that the old machine wasn't cutting the mustard in that respect.

Will this machine do better? Hard to say at this point when costs aren't even know. I will say this though, this new machine has a far greater chance at success than the previous model.
This is certainly true and it is exactly what the new Mac Pro accels at. When it ships I doubt there will be a better machine on the market for meeting a wide array of user needs.

 

I enjoyed the well reasoned arguments there.

 

Especially the summative punchline.  (I think it's a far more flexible machine which can be tailored to many more needs virtually unlimited external expansion vs limited internal expansion.  Also, would we have 'killed' for a dual GPU machine but mere few months ago?  12 core single cpu as standard on the top end?  Blisteringly fast SSD?  It's worlds away from the old model.  And it's the Cube reborn.  What more do we want?  Let the vocal 5% of 50, 000 sales scream all they want...)

 

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #679 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRonin View Post

Theoretically, Apple could replace the ENTIRE Desktop lineup with this new Mac Pro design…!!!

 

Three 'performance sectors' in the new Mac Pro…

 

One would always be filled by a CPU; be it i5s on the low-end (with IGP), i7s on the mid-end (with IGP) or Xeons on the high-end (without IGP)…

 

Second 'sector'; low to mid-end discrete consumer-class GPUs, mid to high-end discrete consumer-class GPUs or a full range of workstation-class GPUs…

 

Also in second 'sector' is the PCIe Flash RAM SSD (boot, apps, storage)…

 

Third 'sector' (this is where things change up); one or two 2.5" HDDs, matching mid to high-end discrete consumer-class GPUs (yes, SLI/CrossFire for gamers!) or matching high-end workstation-class GPUs…

 

As seen in the second 'sector', the third (excepting the one with the single or dual 2.5" HDD option) includes a slot for a second PCIe Flash RAM SSD…

 

Upgrade the I/O on the Thunderbolt Display to USB3 & TB2, change the screen 'finish' to match the newer iMacs, same pricing…

 

Release the All New, Bargain Priced 21.5" Thunderbolt 2 Display; US$599.00…

 

Release the All New 32" Retina 5K Display (5120 x 2880) for US$2,249.00…

 

No more Mac mini, iMac or Mac Pro; just the Mac…

 

Configure as desired, add monitor of choice…

 

After all; most of their 'PC' sales are supposed to be laptops; so leave the multi SKUs there (which you kinda have to, with the screen all attached and such) and par the Desktop line down to one highly configurable unit…! ;^p

 

Apple would have a full range of suggested configurations on the online store, but they would all fall under the same SKU; meaning every new Mac was BTO…! Hey, Made (Assembled) In USA, an efficient design, quick turn-around on custom orders…!?!

 

Bonus idea that just hit me; optional (BTO) integration of the SuperDrive into the 21.5" & 27" Thunderbolt 2 Displays and the 32" Retina 5K Displays…!!! This would also be something that could be easily added later by the end-user…

 

This.  Top post. :)

 

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #680 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post


Wow 32', who makes those? I almost pulled the trigger on a 27" Apple Monitor until I saw the 29” NEC MultiSync EA294WMi, it was 300 CHF cheaper and just gorgeous. I really think Apple needs relook it's pricing for their monitors, they just aren't very competitively price, actually far from it. The LG monitor which uses the exact same LCD display is now 500 dollars less.

My NEC MultiSync EA294WMi



 

Good for viewing A3 documents?  I'll need a 2nd monitor to look at 11x17 inch comic book art pages that I scan in...  

 

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
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