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Apple throws out the rulebook for its unique next-gen Mac Pro - Page 3

post #81 of 1290

looks like my plug hole

post #82 of 1290

Who'll be the first to get it accidentally put out at the yard sale because it was mistaken for that 2002 Bose subwoofer?

post #83 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppeX View Post

You do not get it. Hint:

 

The time is (finally) right for a Mac minitower

http://www.macworld.com/article/2029740/the-time-is-finally-right-for-a-mac-minitower.html

 

BTW, it is an anti-ecological waste to discard a perfectly working display of the iMac just because the un-upgradable CPU is too old (yet the display is as new). And the Mac mini is not powerful enough. And the Mac Pro could be smaller as Mac Pro mini, between the Mac Pro and the Mac mini. That is!

 

This is bullshit.  You don't know what you're talking about.  

 

People have been saying "the time is finally right" for a MiniTower as long as Apple has been around.  I distinctly remember having a long conversation with a computer tech guy who was fixing my thin wire network in 1989 about that very subject.  

 

Just because someone writes an article about this nonsense, doesn't make it accurate.  

Just because you read the article doesn't mean you have to swallow the argument wholesale. 

Just because you do believe it, doesn't mean it's logical or rational or a good idea. 

post #84 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluck View Post

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest professionals looking for a workstation don't have "marvel of packaging" high on their list of wanted features. The design of this machine was not done to meet the needs of professionals. It was done for Apple's need to minimize upgradeability to keep people buying new machines every few years.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the design is cool and I think they will probably sell a lot of them. Lets face it, there are a lot of professional Apple users that will buy whatever Apple throws at them and learn to deal with any limitations it may have. From a business standpoint, I think it is an amazing design. But from a professional user standpoint, it is horrible.

 

I am rather curious how long Apple can keep this kind of thing going and how long Apple users will keep accepting it? Maybe indefinitely I suppose. Time will tell.

 

-kpluck

I agree.

 

 

Interesting design. I probably won't buy one though. I was really looking forward to a new Mac Pro, just this isn't what I wanted. Personally I like the large case of the current design. With this new model, I can see a bunch of non-matching external chassis for hard disks, capture cards, optical media burners, etc, scattered around the desk connected by cables, all of which used to be neatly contained inside the tower.
 
Pros:
Faster
 
Cons:
Not expandable, ugly external accessories required
 
I was hoping for a hybrid server / pro workstation with dual power supplies, multiple fans for redundant protection, more ram slots, rack-able, card slots, Firewire, optical disks and internal HD capability. I don't like the inlet vent on the bottom either. Too easy for it to be obstructed by cables, papers, etc.
 
Oh, and BTW the HTML5 animations on the Apple site promoting the Mac Pro are a perfect example of why HTML5 cannot come close to replacing Flash at least not for quality animation. All kinds of glitches, timing issues and jerky non-buffered animation. If that is the best they can do, it says a lot about the lack of capabilities of the HTML5 platform.

You guys are just laughable. It's so funny when people can't adapt to new advancements in computing (I mean COMPUTING! for crisakes) Expandability potentials increase, and you don't even see it. Stuck looking backwards where you got stuck at some point in your lives.

post #85 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post

There has never been a better time for Adobe to release Creative Suite for Linux. Personally I like big cases and motherboards that I can build to suit my needs. Hackintosh is probably not an option going forward, but neither is this new Mac Pro in my opinion. 4K video and thunderbolt are not exclusive to Apple. Premier is already 4K capable. TB2 will also be available on other boards around the same time.

Problem is; your concept of "building to suit" is from a past era. That's ok. It has always been this way with "Pros" and Apple. Probably always will be.

Ha Ha! There are many things that belong to past eras that are never appreciated by the new generation.

 

Pros ask for a one ton 4x4 diesel truck and Apple delivers a solar powered hovercraft.  This Mac Pro was designed for modern hipsters, wanna be "Pros".


Edited by mstone - 6/10/13 at 8:25pm

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #86 of 1290

I am not seeing too many comments on the thermal core either here or other parts of the internet. That's a shame because you are missing out on the fundamental innovation in the new Pro. Schiller was spot on with his pithy "my ass" comment.

 

Thermal design in workstations has become an engineering specialty over the last two decades. One persistent challenge is the traditional layout, which is a veritable maze. You have to bring air in from one or more ports, route it around and over myriad surfaces including multiple heat sinks and push it out another side. Liquid cooling looks as if it would become the norm. Even so, there is no guarantee that a user would not lay waste to the thermal engineer's best design intentions by adding/changing graphics cards, memory, etc.

 

Apple has solved this problem using the traditional Apple approach - by doing away with the design constraint that is only there because of legacy - the maze layout. Instead, they came up with a new layout that virtually eliminated the problem of labyrinthian air flow. They use a single heat sink that is easy to manufacture (hello unibody v2), reduces part count and distributes heat across components. So much for Apple choosing form over function!!!

 

This is Apple engineering at its best. Which company will dare to follow?

 

p.s. I wonder if this is one reason Bob Mansfield was convinced to stay. He likely started down this path and Cook convinced him to see it through. Pure speculation on my part, of course.

post #87 of 1290
To those of you getting your unmentionables bunched up over (the lack of) CPU upgradeability: Sell me your 2 year old Mac Pro Cylinder at your orig purchase price net the cost of a replacement upgrade CPU. Then use the proceeds towards buying a more powerful version. Coming from an iMac, that would still be an upgrade for me, and for you, it costs the same as a CPU swap. Win-win!
post #88 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Check out this over at Blackmagic Designs:

 

http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8898

 

That is good news.  AMD has been working hard with Adobe and Premiere and After Effects will support OpenCL.

 

http://fireuser.com/blog/adobe_premiere_pro_next_amd_firepro_acceleration/

 

Then again, it's ATI AND Adobe.  The drivers will invariably be fubar'd somehow.  The only folks that suck worse is Intel.  How long were ATI 12.x drivers broken for CS6?

post #89 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

The SSD probably isn't a standard format as the industry hasn't really settled on one.  Even within Apple machines there are SSB blade differences.

Look at the connector on the drive. I've seen a number of SSD drives with that connector in the Windows world. I think it will be relatively easy to upgrade that drive.

post #90 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

I am not seeing too many comments on the thermal core either here or other parts of the internet. That's a shame because you are missing out on the fundamental innovation in the new Pro. Schiller was spot on with his pithy "my ass" comment.

Thermal design in workstations has become an engineering specialty over the last two decades. One persistent challenge is the traditional layout, which is a veritable maze. You have to bring air in from one or more ports, route it around and over myriad surfaces including multiple heat sinks and push it out another side. Liquid cooling looks as if it would become the norm. Even so, there is no guarantee that a user would not lay waste to the thermal engineer's best design intentions by adding/changing graphics cards, memory, etc.

Apple has solved this problem using the traditional Apple approach - by doing away with the design constraint that is only there because of legacy - the maze layout. Instead, they came up with a new layout that virtually eliminated the problem of labyrinthian air flow. They use a single heat sink that is easy to manufacture (hello unibody v2), reduces part count and distributes heat across components. So much for Apple choosing form over function!!!

This is Apple engineering at its best. Which company will dare to follow?

You and I know the answer is: Every last sorry-assed one of them..
post #91 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella View Post

The current Mac Pro starts at $2500.
I believe the new Mac Pro will start at $1800-2000.

Yer nuts  :  )   Anything near that would make it a no brainer impulse buy for even people who don't need what it offers, and Apple has never done that.   

 

It'll be expensive enough to give pause to those who don't require it.

 

 The current Mac Pro price comparison is pointless because there's been zero market for it for literally years given how we've been waiting for an upgrade since forever and MacBook Pros have come so far in the meantime.

 

There will be more of a premium attached to it. 

post #92 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

 

Can you daisy-chaine two of these Mac Pros for more computational power? 

 

Not sure why you would, but the answer is yes. It would not be a matter of daisy-chaining. You would instead manage a cluster of these baby towers using software. That's how you manage most clusters anyhow. 

post #93 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post


You and I know the answer is: Every last sorry-assed one of them..

I don't know about this.

 

Look at how long it took Dell and the like to start excluding the optical drive. This is a bigger departure by far.

post #94 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyPaul View Post


The cost will be killer though. 5K to start, up to 10K/15K USD depending on setup? Way outside what I can afford, but some forward thinking professionals should be able to appreciate it.

Hunh? You predict a doubling of the prices even though Apple has been pretty consistent with holding the line on the price points of all its other product lines when they upgrade them?
post #95 of 1290

The more I think about it, there more I like it and want it!  It's a damn sexy and powerful computer.  I think this should satisfy all those that have been demanding an xMac for so many years (since the G4 cube).

 

However I probably won't be able to upgrade for another year or so because in addition to the new Mac Pro I'll have to buy an 802.11ac Airport Extreme and some high performance external storage to connect wirelessly, so it'll be quite an investment.

 

I think Apple is on to a winner here.

post #96 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumperton1 View Post

My desk is completely overgrown with power strips, wires, and cables... and the entire physical desk top is taken up with hard drives everywhere. The appeal *to me* of the Mac Pro was all those hard drive bays which would allow me a neat, clean, all-in-one tower with plenty of HDD space inside.

...and the appeal to someone else was the upgradeable RAM, and to another person flexibility on video cards. This solution simplifies appealing to everyone with a single product. Yes, you end up with expansion bays.

BUT, your challenge doesn't change. You can do it the right way and get a desktop SAN, or you can cobble together a bunch of little bits and bobs.

To be honest, I am most curious how Apple envisions marrying this with accessories. You can't put anything on top of it, and it isn't exactly an ideal format for things like hard drives. But, it is frigging TINY! If they can deal with 4k video, and daisy chain units for performance they have a HUGE winner! [update-- 3x4k displays supported internally!!!]

Don't think I can justify one for myself, but I wish I could!
Edited by aaarrrgggh - 6/10/13 at 9:10pm
post #97 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

Small error, but iOS 7 is compatible with the 4 and 4S...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Absolute lies. Even the iPhone 4 runs iOS 7. Even the iPad 2 runs iOS 7. 




Don't just SAY things.

Interestingly, the 4th-gen iPod touch won't run it, even though it too has an A4. Apple discontinued it "just in time", it seems…
Interestingly, the FIRST GEN IPAD CAN'T RUN IOS 6, EVEN THOUGH IT'S THE SAME HARDWARE AS THE IPHONE 4 with half the RAM.
Yes it is interesting only devices with FaceTime cameras excluding the iPod 4th generation run it, however apple has had IOS run older on iPhones many times in the past, I guess it is they cost a whole lot more?


They said it dropped it tower design, well I still consider this design a type of tower, do you?
post #98 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Ha Ha! There are many things that belong to past eras that are never appreciated by the new generation.

 

Pros ask for a one ton 4x4 diesel truck and Apple delivers a solar powered hovercraft.  This Mac Pro was designed for modern hipsters, wanna be "Pros".

 

How I picture mstone:

 

post #99 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkVader View Post

The level of stupid at Apple these days is overwhelming.

 

That has to be the worst possible design for a pro machine that I could imagine.  Pros don't want cutesy cylinders, they want EXPANSION.  Things like slots, lots of RAM slots, lots of PCI Express slots, and multiple hard drive bays, at least 4 of them.  Pros still need optical drives.  Pros want to be able to upgrade their graphics cards.  Pros want multiple processors.

 

Think about what they could have done with this in the existing case:  Dual 12 core processors.  Up to 128GB RAM.  2 solid state drives AND 4 hard drives.  And two Blu-Ray drives.  And 4 PCI Express slots.

 

And the design is terrible too.  This thing looks like a black aluminum can.  Oh, wait, that's what it is.

 

LOL. You forgot to include "kitchen sink."

 

"Dual 12 core processors"??? You know there's no such thing. The Xeon chip maxes out at 8 cores. Tip for a more successful troll post: use real things when describing what Apple could have done.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #100 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh View Post


To be honest, I am most curious how Apple envisions marrying this with accessories. You can't put anything on top of it, 

 

It only takes up a small corner of your desk! Why worry about putting things on it? If you insist, you can put it on top of or next to other things.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh View Post


If they can deal with 4k video, and daisy chain units for performance they have a HUGE winner!

 

Why daisy-chain?

post #101 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkVader View Post

The level of stupid at Apple these days is overwhelming.

 

That has to be the worst possible design for a pro machine that I could imagine.  Pros don't want cutesy cylinders, they want EXPANSION.  Things like slots, lots of RAM slots, lots of PCI Express slots, and multiple hard drive bays, at least 4 of them.  Pros still need optical drives.  Pros want to be able to upgrade their graphics cards.  Pros want multiple processors.

 

Think about what they could have done with this in the existing case:  Dual 12 core processors.  Up to 128GB RAM.  2 solid state drives AND 4 hard drives.  And two Blu-Ray drives.  And 4 PCI Express slots.

 

And the design is terrible too.  This thing looks like a black aluminum can.  Oh, wait, that's what it is.

I'm kind of in agreement with you for a portion of the high end pro market segment.  I think this would be cool for certain people that don't need PCi slots.  It can support 3 4K monitors without anything else, which should be enough for most people.  Memory? I wonder what density DIMMs will be available.    Think this would be great as a replacement for some people, but i agree that they should come out with a tower unit with at least 3 or 4 PCI slots, lots of space for memory, storage, etc..  Getting those Thunderbolt expansion chassis is probably what they are thinking of since people can get Sonnet or another brand external PCI expansion chassis.  But that's more crap to deal with and they are a little on the expensive side.  But for the Pro Tools users?  I think they should have come out with a tower that can also be rack mounted.

 

For me, bought an iMac for my home computer, but would have bought one of these with a Thunderbolt monitor instead if the price wasn't too far out there, but I don't need PCI slots, etc. for my home system.

 

I always thought Apple should come out with a MacMini Pro which would be a slightly wider version of the MacMini with the guts of a top end iMac and then a Mac Pro system that can be a tower or easily changed into a rack mounted system with PCI slots, lots of RAM, etc., etc.

post #102 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by SchnellFowVay View Post

I also expect Apple to release some sort of RAID-capable external harddrive enclosure that will connect via Thunderbolt 2 to this thing -- perhaps an enclosure that somehow aesthetically complements the Mac Pro's body.  Regardless of silly arguments about optical drives, etc., it is undisputed that pros who use Macs for editing and creating large amounts of HD media absolutely NEED access to high-capacity disk-based harddrives.  Apple knows this, and that's why I predict a separate multi-harddrive enclosure.

This enclosure you suggest could be essentially the same chassis and enclosure used for the Mac Pro.  It could come with extra GPUs or filled with SSD cards.  Connect via TB and voila!  And it matches.

post #103 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

 

LOL. You forgot to include "kitchen sink."

 

"Dual 12 core processors"??? You know there's no such thing. The Xeon chip maxes out at 8 cores. Tip for a more successful troll post: use real things when describing what Apple could have done.

There are indeed 12-core processors. Tip for successfully busting a troll: make sure they are wrong first. :)

post #104 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

The more I think about it, there more I like it and want it!  It's a damn sexy and powerful computer.  I think this should satisfy all those that have been demanding an xMac for so many years (since the G4 cube).

I also want one but I don't think it's an Xmac. The Xmac was something between an iMac and Mac Pro, but in some ways the new Mac Pro is even further to the pro end than the old one. I am thinking of dual pro graphics as standard which is an optional feature on Dell and HP workstations, and 1250Mbps internal storage.

post #105 of 1290

Great guts ! Stupid skin.

post #106 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

 

But Apple still has an entry level Mac Mini and a mid-level iMac that will cost less than the new Pro.

 

Is that a complaint? Are you going to complain about having these other awesome choices?

Yup, that's Apple. Damned if they do it, damned if they don't.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #107 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by StruckPaper View Post

There are indeed 12-core processors. Tip for successfully busting a troll: make sure they are wrong first. :)

 

Two six-core Xeons are not a "12-core processor."

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #108 of 1290
interesting design. reminds me a little of the original Cray-I, obviously smaller, but unique.

The Cray was round for two reasons: (1) limit length of wires to increase speed, (2) central cooling (which was a flouride compound and quite poisonous)

A lot of people didn't believe that shorter wire lengths would make the system run faster, but it did!



what would really rock the dying post-PC world: Apple offering this at iMac price points...
Edited by vaporland - 6/10/13 at 9:05pm
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post #109 of 1290
Do you have any idea how powerful this machine is?

Step back and take a serious look at this be Mac Pro, it is so forward thinking every edge bleeds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Ha Ha! There are many things that belong to past eras that are never appreciated by the new generation.

Pros ask for a one ton 4x4 diesel truck and Apple delivers a solar powered hovercraft.  This Mac Pro was designed for modern hipsters, wanna be "Pros".
It is more like an Indy car performance wise.
post #110 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Who says this isn't cheap? Who says this isn't quiet? Why would there be a "Pro mini" when the iMac exists? Why would there be another mini anything when the Mac Mini exists?

 

 

My thoughts is that when you have to bring in a computer for servicing, it's rarely the actual monitor.  So if they had a slightly larger (wider) version of the MacMini with the guts of an iMac, then you would only need to bring in the base unit and leave your monitor at home.  Much easier to transport.

For the high end pros.  what PCI cards are people typically using?  Pro Tools cards are probably the most common as well as some video capture cards.  BUT, since Pro Tools came out with their native version of Pro Tools, this system may bypass the need to buy the more expensive Pro Tools cards, and just run the Native software which makes it far more attractive price wise if the new system performs equally or better than a comparable tower using the Pro Tools cards, which are VERY expensive.  It's getting to the point where PCI cards are not really needed anymore.  Logic doesn't use PCI cards, neither does Final Cut Pro.  I think we are in the middle of another form of "THINK DIFFERENT" paradigm shift.  The case for storage?  I think it's probably best just to use an external drive system as there are plenty to choose from and just use Thunderbolt or in this case Thunderbolt 2, which should get interesting.  
post #111 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Step back and take a serious look at this be Mac Pro, it is so forward thinking every edge bleeds.

I agree. 2 years from now it will be "obvious" that a computer has two kinds of chip inside: RAM chips for temporary storage and Flash chips for permanent storage. The idea that you would need a little box with a motor and spinning platters to store data will seem very 20th century. The reason this computer doesn't have HD bays is because, like many of Apple's products, it's simply from the future.

 

And I would just add, that having only Flash storage internally does not equate to your internal storage being unexpandable. You just expand it the way you always used to expand RAM, by taking out the old modules and putting bigger ones in.

post #112 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

 

Two six-core Xeons are not a "12-core processor."

"Doubling" down on your error of omission? :)

 

I don't see anyone (except you) specifying Xeons.

post #113 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlandd View Post

Yer nuts  :  )   Anything near that would make it a no brainer impulse buy for even people who don't need what it offers, and Apple has never done that.   
He maybe nuts but I wouldn't be surprised to find Apple supplementing the high end model with an entry level model that addresses the high entry cost of today's Mac Pro.
Quote:
It'll be expensive enough to give pause to those who don't require it.
As revealed most certainly but Apple will have more than one model. They have as much as said so using the "up to" phrase often.
Quote:
 The current Mac Pro price comparison is pointless because there's been zero market for it for literally years given how we've been waiting for an upgrade since forever and MacBook Pros have come so far in the meantime.

There will be more of a premium attached to it. 
Premium? I certainly think Apple will maintain its margins, but this product is very interesting and has the potential for lower production costs than some might imagine. That doesn't mean cheap but I don't see this being that much more expensive than the current Mac Pro mechanicals.
post #114 of 1290
The tractor beam is coupled to the main reactor in seven locations. A power loss at one of the terminals will allow the ship to leave. This is one of those locations.

Finally tech that looks like it belongs on the Death Star. :-)
post #115 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Fields View Post

Details are wrong in several places about the ports.

There are zero Firewire 800 ports, not two as stated in the article.
There are four USB 3 ports; the article forgot to mention them.
There are two Ethernet ports; the article is vague on this.

Actually, Phill Schiller states in the keynote that Thunderbolt-2 ports are backwards compatible to Firewire....

post #116 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

 

The design does LOOK goofy, but it allows for the most ingenious cooling system ever. It's hard to argue just because it ain't pretty.

 

If an old fart like me can adapt, or more accurately recognize the way the industry is going, you can too! 1smile.gif

 

Wait until you see how well it will keep your coffee hot and cook your Lean Cuisine lunch...!

post #117 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I agree. 2 years from now it will be "obvious" that a computer has two kinds of chip inside: RAM chips for temporary storage and Flash chips for permanent storage.
Not only that but those RAM chips are going to go through an architecture change. Eventually even in the Mac Pro RAM will be soldered in.
Quote:
The idea that you would need a little box with a motor and spinning platters to store data will seem very 20th century. The reason this computer doesn't have HD bays is because, like many of Apple's products, it's simply from the future.
That brought a smile to my face.

However it would have been a very positive thing for Apple to have put in a second slot for their high speed SSDs.
Quote:
And I would just add, that having only Flash storage internally does not equate to your internal storage being unexpandable. You just expand it the way you always used to expand RAM, by taking out the old modules and putting bigger ones in.
That is the other mystery, why do people believe a plug in card isn't upgradable?
post #118 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkevwill View Post

I hope some of the supposed experts replying here, understand the expandability of thunderbolt ports. Including, external PCI enclosures, with any PCI device you want to throw in there.

 

I totally agree with you, but when one bleeds their account for a super computer they'd like to have more to show for it than a liter-sized can of Monster.

post #119 of 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkevwill View Post

I hope some of the supposed experts replying here, understand the expandability of thunderbolt ports. Including, external PCI enclosures, with any PCI device you want to throw in there.

 

Unless that PCI device happens to be a video card, in which case you're screwed. Adding anywhere from $400-1000 to the price of the card is no bargain either.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think we've reached a point in computer evolution that it may be okay to build a machine with no slots. I'm just saying either get a machine that has slots or live without 'em, 'cause the enclosures aren't a very flexible or cost-effective solution.

post #120 of 1290
It's totes amazeballs ... I hope it is really quiet too. It's actually got similarities in concept to the original cube ... with flow-thru vertical air ... but unlike the cube, this has awesome power, fantastic graphics, and massive fast expandability via Thunderbolt. Love it.
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