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iOS 7 design changes remain in flux, likely to see major revisions before release - Page 3

post #81 of 164
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Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

To those that don't like the new UI design, can't you just get a different launcher from the app store if you don't want to use the stock one?  Problem solved.  No need to get worked up.  Besides, I think the new design looks good.  Give it a chance and you may end up liking it.  I'm not really a fan of the wallpaper they're using, but that's easy enough to switch as well.

You think the icons look good because you're used to Android, we hold Apple to a much higher standard.
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post #82 of 164
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Originally Posted by mookiemookie View Post

Perhaps I should have phrased is as they are ultimately the ones who 'manage' the expectations.  Either way, It's their extensive track record of excellent products and design that sets an expectation. If you ask any designer, most will identify Apple both as an inspiration and as a standard bearer.  Particularly coming on the heels of the Maps fiasco, they should be very conscious of the quality, and public perception, of a major overhaul like this.  I don't think I can stomach another Tim Cook apology, so let's hope it comes together.  
Would designers say this about software design though?

I think the foundations of iOS 7 are good. But they need more time to perfect the UI. 6 months is not enough time. They tried to do too much in to short amount of time. My guess is we will see changes during these betas. No doubt they are getting plenty of feedback on the app icons and other UI elements that feel unfinished or inconsistent. And according to this article there are changes that aren't captured in beta 1. Which indicates to me an unfinished product was shown off at WWDC. Apple couldn't delay WWDC and felt keeping the existing UI for another year was not an option so they rushed to get something finished. Time will tell if that was a mistake or not.
post #83 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


I'll eat my hat if some or all of these app icons don't change prior to release. It almost feels like they were placeholders put there in a rush to get something done.

 

Actually, it would be quite brilliant if this was a ruse to throw the competition off about what the real design looks like.  But I can't recall Apple ever doing anything like that. So placeholders they likely are.

post #84 of 164
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Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


You think the icons look good because you're used to Android, we hold Apple to a much higher standard.

 

I'm not huge on the icons either (just as I don't like Windows flat Metro tiles), but like I said, just download a different launcher and be done with it.  Easy peasey.

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post #85 of 164

Maybe...the design is purposefully dreadful because Apple doesn't want to reveal their true UI-skin for everyone to emulate before iOS7 officially launches. Apple knows design is paramount...they set the current standard after all. But the gap is closing really fast. So Apple has to do much better than what they displayed at the developer's conference.

 

OTOH, there's little to base this conjecture upon. Maybe Apple is slipping. Just compare Apple's mobile apps to Google's iOS apps. To me, Google's wins hands down.

 

Oh well, here's to hoping.

post #86 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Any evidence/poll you can cite, or did you just pull it out of your....hat?

I'm paraphrasing:

Jason Santa Maria referenced the ugly stick: https://twitter.com/jasonsantamaria/status/344162119375273984

Marco Arment called them surprisingly bad.

John Siracusa absolutely ripped the piss out of them on The Accidental Tech podcast: "Fisher Price, Game Center icon feels like a Barney Show, Preschool".

Other people, too. MANY of them.
Edited by Ireland - 6/12/13 at 7:48pm
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post #87 of 164
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Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Agreed. John Siracusa went to town on them.
I listened to his accidental tech podcast with Marco Arment and I was half expecting them to just trash iOS 7 and they didn't at all (didn't like the icons of course). Basically said iOS needed a visual refresh and that this is just the beginning of a long process.

I think there are too many knee jerk reactions right now. I'm hoping this TNW article will calm people down a bit. Someone on MacRumors posted a screen shot of the home screen from a developer session and the doc is very translucent. Totally different than what we see in beta 1. I also noticed in Apple's iOS 7 video app folders look much better than what we see in beta 1. In beta 1 the folders, like the app doc, are a light tinted color based on the wallpaper background whereas in the iOS 7 video the folders are very translucent (not colored at all). There are things like the lock and pass code screen, weather app, control center, etc. that look really good. They look 1000x better than what we have now. I think Apple has the right idea and is moving in the right direction, just needs more time to pull it all together.
post #88 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

I listened to his accidental tech podcast with Marco Arment and I was half expecting them to just trash iOS 7 and they didn't at all (didn't like the icons of course).

Or course they didn't like the icons. That's the worst part. Macro thought they may have went too far in the direction they wanted to go in with lack of obvious buttons and too thin glyphs.

I dislike the arrows on the lock screen, and the fact that unlocking is no longer obvious thanks to the lack of an unlocking arrow. And the camera icon on the lock screen also isn't obvious what you do with it.
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post #89 of 164
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Originally Posted by trutheeness View Post

Maybe...the design is purposefully dreadful because Apple doesn't want to reveal their true UI-skin for everyone to emulate before iOS7 officially launches.

That's not how Apple operates. They always up their best foot forward.
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post #90 of 164
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Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

I'm not huge on the icons either (just as I don't like Windows flat Metro tiles), but like I said, just download a different launcher and be done with it.  Easy peasey.

You're an Android user, right? Like I said.
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post #91 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

 

I'm not huge on the icons either (just as I don't like Windows flat Metro tiles), but like I said, just download a different launcher and be done with it.  Easy peasey.

 

Think for just a moment about this.  Is your 'solution' to a dreadful design issue that every customer who shops the device in every store will see and in large part base their buying decision on... really 'just download something different?"  I don't think you thought this through very far / deeply.


Edited by tt92618 - 6/12/13 at 8:36pm
post #92 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


Would designers say this about software design though?

I think the foundations of iOS 7 are good. But they need more time to perfect the UI. 6 months is not enough time. They tried to do too much in to short amount of time. My guess is we will see changes during these betas. No doubt they are getting plenty of feedback on the app icons and other UI elements that feel unfinished or inconsistent. And according to this article there are changes that aren't captured in beta 1. Which indicates to me an unfinished product was shown off at WWDC. Apple couldn't delay WWDC and felt keeping the existing UI for another year was not an option so they rushed to get something finished. Time will tell if that was a mistake or not.

 

Yes you're right, software design has never been their strong suit (especially on the web services front), even though their brand and market position suggests they should strive to be the best in this area as well.  But I think we are in agreement about being forced to show 'something' for WWDC.  The design was just So Bad that everyone has their panties in a bunch, myself included.  I do take exception in that I think the interior application UI they showed is also very weak, and not just the icons.  In fact the icons are the least of my concern because they are just stand-alone designs.  The system re-design is a very difficult proposition where you have to come up with a cohesive style that covers every nook and cranny of the user experience. So, to come up with something great by Fall is looking like a stretch to me. I hope I'm wrong.

post #93 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Or course they didn't like the icons. That's the worst part. Macro thought they may have went too far in the direction they wanted to go in with lack of obvious buttons and too thin glyphs.

I dislike the arrows on the lock screen, and the fact that unlocking is no longer obvious thanks to the lack of an unlocking arrow. And the camera icon on the lock screen also isn't obvious what you do with it.

John Gruber posted this link on his site. I thought it was a balanced, thoughtful read.

http://furbo.org/2013/06/11/been-there-done-that/
post #94 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by mookiemookie View Post

Yes you're right, software design has never been their strong suit (especially on the web services front), even though their brand and market position suggests they should strive to be the best in this area as well.  But I think we are in agreement about being forced to show 'something' for WWDC.  The design was just So Bad that everyone has their panties in a bunch, myself included.  I do take exception in that I think the interior application UI they showed is also very weak, and not just the icons.  In fact the icons are the least of my concern because they are just stand-alone designs.  The system re-design is a very difficult proposition where you have to come up with a cohesive style that covers every nook and cranny of the user experience. So, to come up with something great by Fall is looking like a stretch to me. I hope I'm wrong.
There are a lot of things I like, but it does need work. I think they can make better before release. Won't be perfect but better than what we see in beta 1. If its not then something is wrong in Cupertino.
post #95 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


Apple couldn't delay WWDC and felt keeping the existing UI for another year was not an option so they rushed to get something finished. Time will tell if that was a mistake or not.

 

It was absolutely a mistake.

 

Jobs used to talk about the concept of a 'brand bank'.  Everything you do as a company acts something like either a deposit or a withdrawal from your account at the brand bank.  Like any bank, deposits increase the value of the account, and withdrawals harm it.

 

The thing is, withdrawals from the brand bank often take out not just the principal, they also take out the interest.  When you goof up in a major way - like showcasing unfinished software at a major event where you simultaneously webcast it and distribute through your own TV channel - you make a really major withdrawal from the brand bank including years of accrued interest.  And even when you re-deposit the principal amount... it takes a long time to earn back that interest.  

 

So yeah, it was an error.  IOS7 is being roughly treated in the press.  That's especially true in the investment publications, which is why the stock is underperforming in the wake of the keynote.  

 

Apple would have been better served by showcasing the old UI layer with the many other improvements in place.  By doing that, they would have had the press focussed on the substantive improvements that really were made, rather than on the awful iconography, etc.  There would be disappointment, but Apple could spin and say "We are in the process of creating a beautiful and delicious sandwich for you."  Then people would have something to look forward to.  Telling people there is a great sandwich coming is always better than handing them one filled with crap.

post #96 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


There are a lot of things I like, but it does need work. I think they can make better before release. Won't be perfect but better than what we see in beta 1. If its not then something is wrong in Cupertino.

 

You're lips to god's ears.

post #97 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

 

Think for just a moment about this.  Is your 'solution' to a dreadful design issue that every customer who shops the device in every store will see and in large part base their buying decision on... really 'just download something different?"  I don't think you thought this through very far / deeply.

 

I get your point, but that would only apply if the majority hate something.  Facebook Home, for example, have an advertisement that points out that you can remove it if you don't like it.  Not exactly a promising approach. 

 

I'm merely coming at it from the angle that not everyone likes the same things.  Not everyone is going to like the new UI just as there will be those that will.  Variety and options are the key things here.  Not sure why that is causing a negative attitude so I'll just leave it at that. 

 

Bitch away, gentlemen!  1smile.gif

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post #98 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

Apple would have been better served by showcasing the old UI layer with the many other improvements in place.  By doing that, they would have had the press focussed on the substantive improvements that really were made, rather than on the awful iconography, etc.  There would be disappointment, but Apple could spin and say "We are in the process of creating a beautiful and delicious sandwich for you."  Then people would have something to look forward to.  Telling people there is a great sandwich coming is always better than handing them one filled with crap.

 

Part of me agrees but in practicality showcasing a lame-duck UI would have been a huge risk. I'm sure they considered it.  I think they went with what they currently had despite knowing it is was a shit sandwich design-wise. They were just in a tough spot. 

post #99 of 164
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Originally Posted by Dunks View Post

 

The "value" in iOS is not a thin veneer of virtual ink. Aside from fit and finish the real value is in the ecosystem. Apps you can trust implicitly. Not forcing the user to manage a complex, underlying file system. Cloud services you can rely on to back up your data without a second thought. A virtual assistant who is already the quickest way to achieve certain tasks and will continue to evolve in more helpful ways.
 
The Android is chock full of smoke and mirrors (pentile displays, megapixel myth) and flash-in-the-pan features that don't reach critical mass because of half-baked implementation or multilayered fragmentation issues (manufacturer, formfactor, hardware, carrier update support). I sit on the train and watch young koreans fumble around with Samsung phones. They play freemium games which only take up a third of the comically-oversized screens because the developer had to tailor their code for the lowest common denominator screen sizes. How amazing is that 5.5 inch screen that can't run apps which make full use of the screen really?
 
Anyone can make a phone that outshines the iPhone in one or even a few places. Throw it, market it (loudly) and see if it sticks. Abundance should not to be confused with choice though. While Android manufacturers are scrambling for market share Apple has a clear long term direction and is gradually mapping out a path to take them there. They are cash-flow positive. They top consumer satisfaction ratings and web usage statistics. We have no reason to believe that their rise will be anything other than meteoric.

 

I thought it was pretty amusing that you took time to address both real and imaginary typos in my post, but then completely failed to address any of the points I made.  But ok, fair enough.

 

If you believe that customers purchasing iPhones are largely doing so based on the 'value' of Apple's ecosystem, or their long term strategy, or the strength of their cloud offerings... all I can say is that you are very misguided.  Most of the people buying these devices do not understand a jot or tittle about what makes iCloud better than the many competing cloud products hawked by Apple's competitors.  Many of them don't even know what the 'cloud' is, as a matter of fact.  Similarly, they don't know about the 'ecosystem' of Apple's products - they think an ecosystem is something connected to how plants grow.  Here is the extent of their analyses:  Oooh... shiny.

 

Users buy these devices based on their experience of them.  It's a very emotional process.  That is in part why Apple built Apple stores - so they could showcase their products under cultured conditions that give rise to the best experience.  If you think even for a moment that the casual consumer will overlook a poor experience with a device in order to get some esoteric 'value' that they don't understand from the services behind it, you are very mistaken.  The UX of the UI is front and center and it does matter.  Jobs understood this very well, and that is why he put so much emphasis upon the physical and software design of Apple's products, and for the stores where they are sold, and for the boxes they come in and even the way they are designed inside.  Because it all matters - it all adds up.

post #100 of 164
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Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

 

Most of the people buying these devices do not understand a jot or tittle about what makes iCloud better than the many competing cloud products hawked by Apple's competitors.  Many of them don't even know what the 'cloud' is, as a matter of fact.  Similarly, they don't know about the 'ecosystem' of Apple's products - they think an ecosystem is something connected to how plants grow.  Here is the extent of their analyses:  Oooh... shiny.

 

I think you severely underestimate the tech-savyness of the younger generation.  Many people these days grew up with computers and don't know a life without their existence.  That's not to say that they're all going to become computer science majors, but they almost all understand the basics (and then some).  I know Apple's consumer base catches a lot of flack for being computer illiterate but in my experience that meme doesn't have much ground to stand on.

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post #101 of 164
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Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


John Gruber posted this link on his site. I thought it was a balanced, thoughtful read.

http://furbo.org/2013/06/11/been-there-done-that/

 

Good read.  But Aqua was a good 'shock'...  It was over the top, but made me want to lick it and then jump in a pool :)

And yes it did work itself out over time. 

 

I'm not sure the conditions are the same nowadays to allow for a negative design shock... Apple is now a market leader, consumer expectations are much more demanding, and competition is extremely tough.  And quite frankly, the Jony Ive story has built up a tremendous amount of pressure to deliver a kick-ass design. He HAS to deliver plain and simple. Otherwise it's going to be "design-gate" for three months.

 

post #102 of 164
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Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

 

I think you severely underestimate the tech-savyness of the younger generation.  Many people these days grew up with computers and don't know a life without their existence.  That's not to say that they're all going to become computer science majors, but they almost all understand the basics (and then some).  I know Apple's consumer base catches a lot of flack for being computer illiterate but in my experience that meme doesn't have much ground to stand on.

 

I disagree.  Although certainly the younger generation is more tech savvy than their elders on the whole, that is a different animal from it being common to make the sorts of in-depth analyses the original poster was alluding to.  I strongly believe that many purchases are experientially driven, and although I think many people know terms like 'the cloud' etc. they do not possess the kind of knowledge required to understand why Apple's offering is better than Microsoft or Google.

 

People wander into an Apple store, or <insert wireless carrier>'s store, or <insert big box retailer> and they play with the device.  They experience it, and then they may learn about that other stuff.  Or not.  I think a lot of customers learn about iCloud when the device starts asking them if they want to turn it on.

 

The initial interest is often experientially stoked and driven, and this is why Apple has insisted on specialized display areas in their retail partners' stores with special signage, etc.  It's why they have such beautiful and cultured stores themselves, and it's why they insist on demo units with internet access and the whole nine yards in most of the places where they sell these devices.  It's also why the retailers that don't let customers touch these devices (like Target, as an example) sell fewer of them.

 

If Apple screws up the UI, the breadth and depth of the ecosystem will not offset that.

post #103 of 164
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Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


I think icon design is more about instincts than experience. So is hardware design, but the two aren't exactly the same. I'm personally assuming they were just rushed off their feet. Jobs made weird software design choices too over the years, like green felt and a leather bound find my friends app that's one of the ugliest things I've ever seen. I personally think Ive should hire Loren as his right hand man.

Loren worked at Apple and left. I don't think they could pay him enough to return.

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post #104 of 164
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Originally Posted by krabicka3 View Post

Biggest problem is that new icons look like from very very cheap Chinese copy of some Android phone (the icons are seriously ugly). irked.gif

Another thing is that new GUI is quite bright and option to choose the Theme between "Bright" and "Dark" would be nice to have ("Dark" would look better on black iPhones).

Icons could definitely use some work, but I could get used to it I guess if the new features work as planned. I liked the overall colors of iOS 6, and would have been fine if they just cleaned up some of the cheesier elements and added the new features. I also understand Apple needs to show something radically different UI-wise or they would have to hear endless "stale" and "dated" comments. Can't wait to see the final version.
post #105 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by mookiemookie View Post

 

Yes you're right, software design has never been their strong suit (especially on the web services front), even though their brand and market position suggests they should strive to be the best in this area as well.  But I think we are in agreement about being forced to show 'something' for WWDC.  The design was just So Bad that everyone has their panties in a bunch, myself included.  I do take exception in that I think the interior application UI they showed is also very weak, and not just the icons.  In fact the icons are the least of my concern because they are just stand-alone designs.  The system re-design is a very difficult proposition where you have to come up with a cohesive style that covers every nook and cranny of the user experience. So, to come up with something great by Fall is looking like a stretch to me. I hope I'm wrong.

Software has never been Apple's strong suit? GTFOH! Really, that's just moronic.

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post #106 of 164
Quote:

You mean like how everyone and their dog hated it, hated it with a deep anger, the design of the Vietnam Wall in Washington D.C. designed by Maya Lin. Yet she was so certain in her mind that the design was right, she stuck to it. Today it is one of the most emotionally moving monuments in the world. 

 

Great designers can see further then so-so designers, and much further than the average critic.

 

Maybe that is true for some things and for some people, I haven't seen it so I can't say if I would like the Wall or not.

 

Jony Ives is a fantastic designer for the clean and smooth lines of the hardware where less is more. The icons were okay to me, what really put me off was how white everything was, like the mail app. Just stark and empty. Several Apps had that look, I can't remember which ones, so none of them stood out to me. I liked the functionality of the swiping to more screens on top of each other, so I have no issues with how the Apps worked, that was quite impressive.

 

I have been a professional graphic and web designer for 30 years, my clients are happy with my work and I always have more projects than I have time for. So I think that would put me above just a so-so designer. To my professional eye, there was much lacking in the design that wasn't before. I was never a fan of the green felt either, and the leather bond look was over the top. But at least there was a richness in the look of most of the Apps. I am hoping that they add more of that back or allow me to skin my own Apps. 

post #107 of 164

I'm concerned about a thin, lightly colored font against similarly colored backgrounds with no shadows or contrast or other relief. I'm hoping it's more readable than what I've seen. I can't make that judgment until the thing is in my hands and I have some time with it.

 

The icons don't bother me at all. I'm trying to figure out why people are going ballistic about the Safari icon. It looks pretty snazzy to me.

 

I've read many posts and can agree on some basic points. The share icon, whatever it is, should be consistent across apps. There should be a paradigm for the UI and I think Ive went through his thought process regarding layers and interactivity pretty well.

 

That said, I visit Daring Fireball every day and immediately hit command-+ a few times to get it readable. Tiny white text on a gray background can be hard to read at times. For what it's worth, today he linked to furbo.org where many good points were made about iOS 7 vs. Aqua and how it was refined to what we see today.

 

Ironic, but that is one of the ugliest sites I've ever seen. So bad that I struggled to read it.

 

We'll have to wait and see what arises from Cupertino. I hope someone says, hey, do you think this super elegant, finely designed white text might be easier read if..........

post #108 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

This is nothing new. Watch the 2007 iPhone introduction (the 720p version) and then... oh, right, most people don't have an iPhone OS 1-capable device, do they... Anyway, you can see some big changes from the demo version and what shipped. That was six months, and this gap will be four, so it's quite possible that iOS 7 will look markedly different from beta 1.
Nope.

 

You can say this as much as you want, but folk will still bang on about duff icons and thin fonts, and they will still see the word 'beta' and read it as 'golden master'. This happens with every big change that Apple makes and I would have been disappointed if it hadn't happened with this one. Other things to look out for:

 

  1. The liberal use of the phrase 'most', as in 'most users', 'most developers', 'most graphic designers'. What they really mean is 'vocal users', 'vocal developers' and 'vocal designers' because they never actually have any figures to support their use of the word 'most'. Even looking at this thread, I wouldn’t say that we have 'most' people agreeing that the UI is awful. What we have is the same people saying it's awful over and over again. That doesn't qualify as 'most', and you can stretch that analogy across the internet in general.
  2. The number of new accounts that appear where people trash the UI after pointing out that they've been a long-time Apple supporter. Yeesh.
  3. Assumptions about how Apple goes about developing software, or what happened internally at Apple to result in such a clusterf*ck. Because as we all know, the duff Safari icon was one of the Biblical portends for the End of Days.
  4. Ramping up the adjectives. Folk like to throw the word 'crap' around like they've just discovered it. 
  5. The 'Jobs wouldn't have...' brigade. Yes, Steve Jobs wouldn't have shown iOS in this state. Actually he would. Not only that, he would have released them in that state to elicit feedback. The first releases of OSX were unpolished and quite buggy, but Jobs knew it was important to get them out there.

 

But here's a worrying development:

 

 

Quote:
So yeah, it was an error.  IOS7 is being roughly treated in the press.  That's especially true in the investment publications, which is why the stock is underperforming in the wake of the keynote.

 

Ignoring the fact that Apple stock always takes a nosedive after a keynote (even when the God-like Jobs was in charge), Apple should now be planning its activities around the opinions of the investment press? If that happens then the company is finished for sure. I don't even read investment publications for advice about money, so I'm certainly not going to concern myself with their opinions on UI design.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

 

It was absolutely a mistake.

 

Jobs used to talk about the concept of a 'brand bank'.  Everything you do as a company acts something like either a deposit or a withdrawal from your account at the brand bank.  Like any bank, deposits increase the value of the account, and withdrawals harm it.

 

The thing is, withdrawals from the brand bank often take out not just the principal, they also take out the interest.  When you goof up in a major way - like showcasing unfinished software at a major event where you simultaneously webcast it and distribute through your own TV channel - you make a really major withdrawal from the brand bank including years of accrued interest.  And even when you re-deposit the principal amount... it takes a long time to earn back that interest.  

 

So yeah, it was an error.  IOS7 is being roughly treated in the press.  That's especially true in the investment publications, which is why the stock is underperforming in the wake of the keynote.  

 

Apple would have been better served by showcasing the old UI layer with the many other improvements in place.  By doing that, they would have had the press focussed on the substantive improvements that really were made, rather than on the awful iconography, etc.  There would be disappointment, but Apple could spin and say "We are in the process of creating a beautiful and delicious sandwich for you."  Then people would have something to look forward to.  Telling people there is a great sandwich coming is always better than handing them one filled with crap.

 

 

Nope. The press would have looked at this and said, "iOS7 brings no real changes over iOS6," no matter what Apple tried to "spin", because the press lacks the technical expertise to recognise under-the-hood changes as significant, and this message would have stuck, driving the stock price down even faster. This is borne out by the fact that the press are focussing more on the visual aspects without discussing the underlying changes. 

What many seem to have forgotten that the WWDC is geared towards developers, and developers need to see in which direction the company is heading. Google understands this; Microsoft understands this. Hiding the UI from them until the release gives them no time to revamp their applications and gives Apple no time to address problems that the UI causes. This would create far more bad feeling than the views from the investment press. 

 

Still, it does need a lot of work, but for some reason that seems to come as a big shock to people. 


Edited by Rayz - 6/12/13 at 11:41pm
post #109 of 164

Anyone said it yet? The battery icon (when charged) is butt ugly!

post #110 of 164
Don't like the beta design, Inside the Reminder app looks like bubble gum and Maps was so perfect and beautiful before ... :-( (although i like the fulls reen modus and the scale)
Edited by MaxSKB - 6/13/13 at 12:44am
post #111 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

 

It was absolutely a mistake.

 

Jobs used to talk about the concept of a 'brand bank'.  Everything you do as a company acts something like either a deposit or a withdrawal from your account at the brand bank.  Like any bank, deposits increase the value of the account, and withdrawals harm it.

 

The thing is, withdrawals from the brand bank often take out not just the principal, they also take out the interest.  When you goof up in a major way - like showcasing unfinished software at a major event where you simultaneously webcast it and distribute through your own TV channel - you make a really major withdrawal from the brand bank including years of accrued interest.  And even when you re-deposit the principal amount... it takes a long time to earn back that interest.  

 

So yeah, it was an error.  IOS7 is being roughly treated in the press.  That's especially true in the investment publications, which is why the stock is underperforming in the wake of the keynote.  

 

Apple would have been better served by showcasing the old UI layer with the many other improvements in place.  By doing that, they would have had the press focussed on the substantive improvements that really were made, rather than on the awful iconography, etc.  There would be disappointment, but Apple could spin and say "We are in the process of creating a beautiful and delicious sandwich for you."  Then people would have something to look forward to.  Telling people there is a great sandwich coming is always better than handing them one filled with crap.

 

What a ridiculously sensational, presumptuous post filled with no real facts except long-winded, irrelevant analogies. You're also pretty insane if you believe Apple would have been teated lightly if they showed off the same UI after all this time. 

 

It may be your opinion that iOS7's design is "a sandwich filled with crap", but it's just that- an opinion, and an ignorant knee-jerk one at that, based on little to nothing. It may also be your assumption that the iconography and design was "rushed"- but again, that would be an assumption, based on absolutely nothing. 

 

I've been running iOS7 since release. Did the icons sem odd at first? Of course. That's because I've been using the same icons, every single day, for 5 years now. It's human nature to reject change. But now, 3 days later, I've gotten utterly used to the new ones, and the current ones feel somewhat stodgy, heavy, and dated. If I continue using iOS7 for another month, this feeling will be even more pronounced. 

 

Also, I just watched a 1hr long developer session on iOS7's interface and iconography. Believe it or not, these icons weren't rushed and designed half-assedly at the last second. There's a thorough methodology behind them, from the shape, to the colors, and even how they relate to each other mathematically. Nothing is random or accidental, although you may assume so because you dont know any better. You can have a slight bit of humility, instead of spitting on something new like you have, before even trying it and making an effort to give it a chance.

 

As for the press and the investor community, who gives a ****? Do you really put that much stock in their opinions, so that Apple should base their direction on their whims? The press and investors have shown time and time again that they don't have a shred of insight about what makes a good, successful product, or the future of the industry. Apple stocks drop after EVERY single Apple event, and have for the past several years, so its pretty childish to use this as some sort of argument against Apple. You would know that if you had any sense of history. The day Apple listens to the press and investors is they day they doom themselves. iOS7 is a monumental improvement in every aspect imaginable, that I now have trouble using my iOS6 devices, negative click-whore headlines not withstanding.

 

The iPad unveiling also invoked a "massive dissapointment". As did the iPod. As did a million other things that Apple has done to move things forward. There will always be negative naysayers like you that trash and bash them baselessly everytime they do something different/unexpected, and Apple will remain successful as long as they ignore these people and go with their gut. 


Edited by Slurpy - 6/12/13 at 11:53pm
post #112 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

Nope. The press would have looked at this and said, "iOS7 brings no real changes over iOS6," no matter what Apple tried to "spin", because the press lacks the technical expertise to recognise under-the-hood changes as significant, and this message would have stuck, driving the stock price down even faster. This is borne out by the fact that the press are focussing more on the visual aspects without discussing the underlying changes. 

What many seem to have forgotten that the WWDC is geared towards developers, and developers need to see in which direction the company is heading. Google understands this; Microsoft understands this. Hiding the UI from them until the release gives them no time to revamp their applications and gives Apple no time to address problems that the UI causes. This would create far more bad feeling than the views from the investment press. 

 

Still, it does need a lot of work, but that's because it's a BETA!

 

Listen, I'm a developer, a designer, and a UX architect.  I've been designing products for 20 years.  I understand what a beta is.

 

I think apologists are using the fact that IOS 7 is in beta as a way of excusing some very glaring mistakes, without realizing that Apple is under a microscope like perhaps no other company in modern history.  Jobs understood this, and it is partially why he was so adamant about not letting people outside the company see things until they were highly evolved.

 

But if you must argue this from a beta software angle, let me point out to you a feature almost universal to beta software releases: they aren't wide spread and they aren't introduced at huge events frequented by the press and simulcast across the web and via internet TV.  They also are not usually accompanied by slick videos proclaiming the beauty, attention to detail, and vision behind the in actuality unfinished and highly immature software.

 

IF Apple actually believes the stuff that is espoused by Ive in his intro, or by Cook in his introduction and summary for IOS 7... then you have to acknowledge that they thought what they were introducing was excellent and a great achievement.  If they didn't believe that, then you have to question the basic honesty of standing on a stage and saying something is rad when in reality you know it is deeply immature and unfinished.  

 

Frankly speaking, from my perspective it looks to me like Apple was sincere in their estimation about how wonderful IOS 7 is, and they are likely quite shocked at the reception it is getting.  

 

There was spin - absolutely so.  It either happened before the intro, or after.  You pick the one that least offends you.  I'll stick with basic usability, and simply note that by almost any measure, IOS 7 is worse than IOS 6.

 

Hey - it's now coming out that many of the icons for IOS 7 weren't even designed by Apple's UI designers - they were done by marketing.  And that actually makes a ton more sense when you look at them, because they look exactly like the product of a marketing house rather than talented designers.

post #113 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

i would rather they kill the gradients all together

Start screen.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #114 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

 

What a ridiculously sensational, presumptuous post filled with no real facts except long-winded, irrelevant analogies. You're also pretty insane if you believe Apple would have been teated lightly if they showed off the same UI after all this time. 

 

It may be your opinion that iOS7's design is "a sandwich filled with crap", but it's just that- an opinion, and an ignorant knee-jerk one at that, based on little to nothing. It may also be your assumption that the iconography and design was "rushed"- but again, that would be an assumption, based on absolutely nothing. 

 

...

 

Also, I just watched a 1hr long developer session on iOS7's interface and iconography. Believe it or not, these icons weren't rushed and designed half-assedly at the last second. There's a thorough methodology behind them, from the shape, to the colors, and even how they relate to each other mathematically. Nothing is random or accidental, although you may assume so because you dont know any better. You can have a slight bit of humility, instead of spitting on something new like you have, before even trying it and making an effort to give it a chance.

 

 

 

First of all, I never said that there was no methodology to these designs (although that certainly IS being stated by others), nor did I assert that they were rushed.  I stated that they are so minimalistic that they have become ineffective mechanisms for communication.  I also asserted that IOS 7 is inconsistent, and that its use of fonts with a very low figure / ground contrast and with little to assist in edge distinction makes them very difficult to read in many common usage contexts, which is in turn a very big usability concern.  You may call that presumptuous and ignorant if you wish, but it is the result of 20 years of experience designing software user interfaces.  

 

You also assumed that I have NOT tried IOS 7, which as a matter of fact is completely wrong.  I have it, and use it daily.  That's why I don't think IOS 7 has a problem with figure / ground disambiguation, I know it does.  And I can post a dozen screen snaps I've taken in the past day which highlight that assertion and bear it out.  You have it, apparently, so for crying out loud just try changing your wallpaper between different designs and see how many of the icon labels w=you can actually read.  Now compare that with IOS 6. 

 

You have to be willfully ignorant not to see that there are issues there.

 

I want to point out that I'm not 'spitting on something new' as you assert.  I sent email to cook about these things and I was careful to point out that this is coming from a place of lovingly constructive criticism.  What I am doing is pointing out, perhaps in a blunt way, that IOS 7 has some serious design and usability issues that must be corrected.  That's actually a constructive and healthy thing.  As I said, I design products for a living and we bash on our own stuff more or less constantly because that's what you must do to build excellent things.  Apple. I am sure, knows this... ad I doubt they are as defensive internally as you are being.

post #115 of 164

Overall great feelings about the new iOS 7. It looks to be a major, major update in terms of everything! A LOT of new functionality!

+ iTunes + AirDrop + Flatness + Photos and Camera + Typography + Nice icons! + Nice looking Notification Center! + Multitasking looks great + Control Center is great + gestures from all edges is nice + Safari tabs! + Calendar! + Mail!

 

My only issues with this beta snapshot showed to the public are of cosmetic nature

- Calendar icon, too thin font - Safari icon, just not quite there yet - Settings icon, really dull - Camera icon, pretty boring - Blurred backgrounds... that blur filter looks pretty bad. It'd look much better if they created a realtime low cpu draining defocus filter rather than gaussian kind of blur, or at least pulled up the blue channel or something.. And finally, that iOS in the car app icon looks truly horrible.

 

Wishing them good luck finishing up iOS 7. Looks great!


Edited by palegolas - 6/13/13 at 12:27am
post #116 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

 

Listen, I'm a developer, a designer, and a UX architect.  I've been designing products for 20 years.  I understand what a beta is.

 

 

 

When someone uses the word 'architect' when applied to UI design, my BS meter redlines. And your belief that Apple should 'hide' elements from developer just so the press gives them an easier ride clearly demonstrates that you have no clue what a beta is for.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

 

Listen, I'm a developer, a designer, and a UX architect.  I've been designing products for 20 years.  I understand what a beta is.

 

I think apologists are using the fact that IOS 7 is in beta as a way of excusing some very glaring mistakes, without realizing that Apple is under a microscope like perhaps no other company in modern history.  Jobs understood this, and it is partially why he was so adamant about not letting people outside the company see things until they were highly evolved.

 

 

 

Ah, "apologist" used in the context of 'Anyone who doesn't agree with me."

 

And I'm afraid your view of Jobs as an infallible IT messiah is revisionist at best. Final Cut Pro X was released under his leadership and was reviled so badly by the community that they had to make the previous version available while they continued to work on the new one. OSX certainly wasn't done when it was first released, but Apple knows the benefits of letting the customers (in this case, developers) get a look at what they're doing so the developers can get their own stuff up to scratch and elicit feedback in what they're doing. What Apple has also become adept at is seeing the difference between genuine problems and moaning by self-proclaimed experts.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

 

But if you must argue this from a beta software angle, let me point out to you a feature almost universal to beta software releases: they aren't wide spread and they aren't introduced at huge events frequented by the press and simulcast across the web and via internet TV.  They also are not usually accompanied by slick videos proclaiming the beauty, attention to detail, and vision behind the in actuality unfinished and highly immature software.

 

IF Apple actually believes the stuff that is espoused by Ive in his intro, or by Cook in his introduction and summary for IOS 7... then you have to acknowledge that they thought what they were introducing was excellent and a great achievement.  If they didn't believe that, then you have to question the basic honesty of standing on a stage and saying something is rad when in reality you know it is deeply immature and unfinished.  

 

 

Yeah, you see this is what makes raise a rather sardonic eyebrow at your claims of being 'a UX architect'. When I watched the demo, I saw the multi-planed design, how the dialogs operated, how you the user was supposed to move between views, how they were supposed to pick up clues about context. I asked, "Okay, but will they know how to do that if they...?", "Is is a good idea to have two compass-like icons on the same page?" The stuff I didn't like centred around how the UI operated. That was what the video was about. 

What is going to change is what you were clearly focussed on: the typography and the icons. All the stuff that Apple can (and most probably will fix) ongoing. You, my friend, saw what the pundits saw: icons and typography. If Apple had left the icons and the type the same, you'd have been the first person here, saying that nothing had changed at all.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

Frankly speaking, from my perspective it looks to me like Apple was sincere in their estimation about how wonderful IOS 7 is, and they are likely quite shocked at the reception it is getting.  

 

There was spin - absolutely so.  It either happened before the intro, or after.  You pick the one that least offends you.  I'll stick with basic usability, and simply note that by almost any measure, IOS 7 is worse than IOS 6.

 

 
See point #3 from my earlier post: The assumption that they know what is going on inside of Apple. Clear case of it here. 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

Hey - it's now coming out that many of the icons for IOS 7 weren't even designed by Apple's UI designers - they were done by marketing.  And that actually makes a ton more sense when you look at them, because they look exactly like the product of a marketing house rather than talented designers.

 

Again with the icons ... <sigh/>. You do know they can change them, right?

 

The icons being designed my marketing comes as no shock to anyone. I didn't need to go trawling off on a web search to know that the Game Centre icon was designed by a different body than whoever designed the camera icon, but feel free to pat yourself on the back if you believe you've landed on some great hidden conspiracy. The point that you fail to grasp is that the icons don't matter anywhere near as much how the UI operates and how the developers are supposed to interact with it, and that's simply because you don't understand software development and you don't understand the purpose of beta testing.

post #117 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by palegolas View Post

Overall great feelings about the new iOS 7. It looks to be a major, major update in terms of everything! A LOT of new functionality!

+ iTunes + AirDrop + Flatness + Photos and Camera + Typography + Nice icons! + Nice looking Notification Center! + Multitasking looks great + Control Center is great + gestures from all edges is nice + Safari tabs! + Calendar! + Mail!

 

My only issues with this beta snapshot showed to the public are of cosmetic nature

- Calendar icon, too thin font - Safari icon, just not quite there yet - Settings icon, really dull - Camera icon, pretty boring - Blurred backgrounds... that blur filter looks pretty bad. It'd look much better if they created a realtime low cpu draining defocus filter rather than gaussian kind of blur, or at least pulled up the blue channel or something.. And finally, that iOS in the car app icon looks truly horrible.

 

Wishing them good luck finishing up iOS 7. Looks great!

 

I also think they shouldn't have two compass icons on the same screen. Minor thing.

post #118 of 164
On MacRumors there's a threads where people are posting ios 7 screen shots. Just looking at them shows how complex this UI is compared to previous versions. Even if some of this stuff isn't new to mobile OS's its certainly new to iOS. I look back at pre-WWDC comments and not many people expected iOS 7 to be completely different. They basically expected the look of the music or podcasts app with glossiness removed from apps and UI elements. Even though some of the rumors said it was a top to bottom redesign I don't think many believed that would actually be the case. I'll be curious to see what people's reactions are say a month or two from now after they've had a chance to use it for more than a few days (and Apple has fixed bugs and incorporated changes based on developer feedback).
post #119 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxSKB View Post

Don't like the beta design, Inside the Reminder app looks like bubble gum and Maps was so perfect and beautiful before ... :-( (although i like the fulls reen modus and the scale)

I really mean to ask this before but forget. What about the road-sign Map direction? It's skewmo...., right? But it's so perfect. Is the new one better?
post #120 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

When someone uses the word 'architect' when applied to UI design, my BS meter redlines. And your belief that Apple should 'hide' elements from developer just so the press gives them an easier ride clearly demonstrates that you have no clue what a beta is for.



Ah, "apologist" used in the context of 'Anyone who doesn't agree with me."

And I'm afraid your view of Jobs as an infallible IT messiah is revisionist at best. Final Cut Pro X was released under his leadership and was reviled so badly by the community that they had to make the previous version available while they continued to work on the new one. OSX certainly wasn't done when it was first released, but Apple knows the benefits of letting the customers (in this case, developers) get a look at what they're doing so the developers can get their own stuff up to scratch and elicit feedback in what they're doing. What Apple has also become adept at is seeing the difference between genuine problems and moaning by self-proclaimed experts.



Yeah, you see this is what makes raise a rather sardonic eyebrow at your claims of being 'a UX architect'. When I watched the demo, I saw the multi-planed design, how the dialogs operated, how you the user was supposed to move between views, how they were supposed to pick up clues about context. I asked, "Okay, but will they know how to do that if they...?", "Is is a good idea to have two compass-like icons on the same page?" The stuff I didn't like centred around how the UI operated. That was what the video was about. 
What is going to change is what you were clearly focussed on: the typography and the icons. All the stuff that Apple can (and most probably will fix) ongoing. You, my friend, saw what the pundits saw: icons and typography. If Apple had left the icons and the type the same, you'd have been the first person here, saying that nothing had changed at all.






Again with the icons ... . You do know they can change them, right?

The icons being designed my marketing comes as no shock to anyone. I didn't need to go trawling off on a web search to know that the Game Centre icon was designed by a different body than whoever designed the camera icon, but feel free to pat yourself on the back if you believe you've landed on some great hidden conspiracy. The point that you fail to grasp is that the icons don't matter anywhere near as much how the UI operates and how the developers are supposed to interact with it, and that's simply because you don't understand software development and you don't understand the purpose of beta testing.

@Rayz - Just a huge" THANK YOU" for saving me the time punching holes in that "expert" review.

Small note though:
Quote:
Final Cut Pro X was released under his (sic Steve Jobs) leadership
Actually Tim Cook was already at the helm. That "fiasco" was typical Apple though... rethink the entire workflow and remake the framework for the future.

@Slurpy - another perfect post. You're on roll these days.

@tt9618 - so first you were hoping that Jony & Team would see your post to a forum, and then you went ahead and wrote to Tim Cook making yourself out to be a fool with no vision?

@Every Idiot That Thinks This Design is Final -

One word: BETA!
  1. Setting for "impaired viewing" AKA Accessability - turn on/off transparency (not yet implemented), as well as making text larger, bolder, etc.... which has already been spotted.
  2. Another "possible" setting: transparency slider... and/or preferred "sheet" color, texture, etc. Easy stuff.
  3. Yet another possible "innovation": Ambient Lighting setting will do more than just raise or lower brightness, but also change transparency, blur and/or color sheet. 2 mode settings possible: Bright and Dark settings.

IMHO, I also like the theory that Apple possibly decided not to show everything... or even could due to time constraints... which plays in their favor actually. Let all the naysayers take their pot-shots, then step by step add settings, finalize features... and blow everyone away when you can actually download iOS7 and purchase a new iPhone or iPad with it installed in the Fall. Then you have everybody oohing and aahing and standing in line just to get their hands on one.

Also, I see no reason to give the competition any advance notice before Apple is ready to ship. At the moment, everyone... not only designers... are left scratching their heads. The developers have everything THEY need to get their Apps up to speed. Isn't that's what the WWDC is for? What Apple does or doesn't do with their own icons and GUI settings, has no bearing what so ever on what AngryBirds, FlipBook, EA, etc do. For them it's all under the hood and where THEY want their fans and customers to be: in THEIR App.

Slightly off-topic:
I personally think that there is still a small power struggle and acceptance of each individual's views, expertise and vision within Apple's leadership. They've only had a little over a year to work and play with each other so intimately... WITHOUT The Great Referee and Final Say of the late Steve Jobs. Before it was rather simple with SJ: a) "we're going with it because I said so", or b) "It sucks!" - which meant back to your department and start over without knowing really, what part sucks that needs changing.

Phil Schiller - the guy's marketing hubris is all over this first presentation. Good? Bad? I'd say in the middle and he should tone down the adjectives... but hey!... he looked really healthy! Lost a pound or two.

Craig Federighi - OMG! Just NAILED it! Great F***** job!

Tim Cook - should stop listening to everything Phil tells him or talking like him. He needs to develop his own style, like the one we saw a few times on AllThingsD and the Senate hearing. Let it flow... or better yet, should take a trip out to Warning: Mavericks! (Click to show)
Mavericks included in the "Riding Giants (2004) documentary... a must see for surfing fans!
, get in the water and have the bejeezus scared out of him. Everything after that seems easy, including "winging it" in public 1smile.gif



Last note: Icons do truthfully suck at this time. For easy reference only.

Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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