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post #41 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Apple still wants to know where you are, users still want to play games, and maps work better with compasses.

 

Agreed. Again, I was playing the other side and pushing the "plastic iPhone" crowd to show me what would be removed to make it cheaper. Sorry if everyone is thinking I am advocating any of this :) 

post #42 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post


If they introduce a plastic iPhone, I will eat crow! 

Answer me this; what entry level Apple product is plastic? Even the iPod Shuffle is aluminum. 

I would eat crow if Apple released a $99 off contract phone.
post #43 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

But for those saying it will happen, then show me how it will happen. 

It's amazing how infrequently they can do that...

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #44 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

The exercise was to try and determine what would be removed to make it cheaper, if at all Apple would introduce such a product, which I still don't see. So what is currently in the iPhone that users who would buy a cheaper version, would not need that could be removed to make it cheaper? 

They can remove .....

Very high margins
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post #45 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

And why would Apple do that? It is always better to sell fewer items at higher margin than more at less margin as you have to take into account the entire supply chain. 

Don't believe me, but look at Apple's profit vs. Samsung's profit. 

iOS is a platform.
Samsung are catching up on profit.

Next argument
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post #46 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


They can remove .....

Very high margins

 

AGAIN, why would they, or anyone want to do that? Selling fewer at higher margins is always better than selling more at lower margins as you simply don't have to work as hard, and by that I mean you don't have to put as much through the supply chain where more issues could happen. 

 

Would you rather sell 100 phones at $20 profit or 200 phones at $10? 

post #47 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


iOS is a platform.
Samsung are catching up on profit.

Next argument

 

Where is Samsung catching up on profit? Did they lower their quality again, raise their prices, or through volume decrease their component cost? 

 

Tim at WWDC sated (again) that Apple is not about volume, but user experience.

 

So next argument. 

post #48 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

 

And why would Apple do that? It is always better to sell fewer items at higher margin than more at less margin as you have to take into account the entire supply chain. 

 

Don't believe me, but look at Apple's profit vs. Samsung's profit. 


Maybe in NA and Europe. How well does that work in Asia?

 

Profit is profit when you are losing a huge, but not all by any means, chunk of the market to cut rate competitors. People want Apple phones. A cheaper but still high quality version will satisfy a huge portion of the Chinese population.

 

... and I'm not talking dirt cheap. Apple doesn't compete in that arena.


Edited by island hermit - 6/13/13 at 12:57pm
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post #49 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

Where is Samsung catching up on profit? Did they lower their quality again, raise their prices, or through volume decrease their component cost? 

Tim at WWDC sated (again) that Apple is not about volume, but user experience.

So next argument. 

Samsung is catching up in profit in all reports on profit share since last year. Google it.

Tim Cook is not going to announce new products - his defensive answer is typical of a non-response when apple is questioned about new products. See the 7 inch iPad ( and we got the exact same arguments last year when iPad mini components were being seen).

Lastly Apple do care about market share when they are winning market share, all conference calls mention the iPod percentage of music player sakes and they used to mention the iPad percentage of tablet sales. They mentioned mobile market share in the conference and said that iOS 6 is installed on more devices than any one Android system. This was an indication of concern about platform - which developers care about.

Every company which saturates a market moves onto the next. This may or may not cannibalise their own sales but as they also say - and show with lower priced devices like the mini and the touch - they prefer to cannibalise themselves.

Next argument.
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post #50 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

 

Agreed. Again, I was playing the other side and pushing the "plastic iPhone" crowd to show me what would be removed to make it cheaper. Sorry if everyone is thinking I am advocating any of this :) 

 

I agree that simply making the phone plastic won't do anything for the price. 

 

But, I would assume if a cheaper iPhone were to happen it wouldn't be that much cheaper than Apple's current handsets. I could see a device akin to the 4S sold for $399. That's only $50 less than the 4S would be sold for anyway. Apple could figure out a way to assemble the new handset that's easier and cheaper than the 4/4S currently are, and that would help them retain their margins or possible even grow them. In order to avoid cannibalization with the 5/5S, Apple can disable some of iOS 7's graphical elements as they are going to do with the iPhone 4, and use a smaller 5MP camera as well as limit the device to 8GB of storage. With less onboard storage Apple could convince more people to utilize the benefits of iCloud and iTunes Radio.

 

With all that said, I don't see a sub-$300 from Apple anytime soon.

post #51 of 73
Every year the same arguments. In 2015 Apple won't be producing cheaper TVs despite the Android competition.
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post #52 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

I agree that simply making the phone plastic won't do anything for the price. 

But, I would assume if a cheaper iPhone were to happen it wouldn't be that much cheaper than Apple's current handsets. I could see a device akin to the 4S sold for $399. That's only $50 less than the 4S would be sold for anyway. Apple could figure out a way to assemble the new handset that's easier and cheaper than the 4/4S currently are, and that would help them retain their margins or possible even grow them. In order to avoid cannibalization with the 5/5S, Apple can disable some of iOS 7's graphical elements as they are going to do with the iPhone 4, and use a smaller 5MP camera as well as limit the device to 8GB of storage. With less onboard storage Apple could convince more people to utilize the benefits of iCloud and iTunes Radio.

With all that said, I don't see a sub-$300 from Apple anytime soon.

They could do all that, remove the pHone chips as well and then sell an iPod touch for $229. Or do you think those radio chips are hugely expensive? They aren't.
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post #53 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

Every year the same arguments. In 2015 Apple won't be producing cheaper TVs despite the Android competition.

 

Show me where Apple has introduced a cheaper product to gain market share? Keep in mind the difference of form factor (different iPods and iPads) to meet size/function needs for different markets vs. simply making a cheaper version of the same. 

post #54 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


Samsung is catching up in profit in all reports on profit share since last year. Google it.

Tim Cook is not going to announce new products - his defensive answer is typical of a non-response when apple is questioned about new products. See the 7 inch iPad ( and we got the exact same arguments last year when iPad mini components were being seen).

Lastly Apple do care about market share when they are winning market share, all conference calls mention the iPod percentage of music player sakes and they used to mention the iPad percentage of tablet sales. They mentioned mobile market share in the conference and said that iOS 6 is installed on more devices than any one Android system. This was an indication of concern about platform - which developers care about.

Every company which saturates a market moves onto the next. This may or may not cannibalise their own sales but as they also say - and show with lower priced devices like the mini and the touch - they prefer to cannibalise themselves.

Next argument.

 

 

Market share due to user experience and love for product is not the same as flooding a market with cheaper versions to gain that same share. The iPad mini is a new form factor to reach a different market (more portable) not to reduce price to gain market. Why don't people see that? 

post #55 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

Samsung is catching up in profit in all reports on profit share since last year. Google it.

Tim Cook is not going to announce new products - his defensive answer is typical of a non-response when apple is questioned about new products. See the 7 inch iPad ( and we got the exact same arguments last year when iPad mini components were being seen).

Lastly Apple do care about market share when they are winning market share, all conference calls mention the iPod percentage of music player sakes and they used to mention the iPad percentage of tablet sales. They mentioned mobile market share in the conference and said that iOS 6 is installed on more devices than any one Android system. This was an indication of concern about platform - which developers care about.

Every company which saturates a market moves onto the next. This may or may not cannibalise their own sales but as they also say - and show with lower priced devices like the mini and the touch - they prefer to cannibalise themselves.

Next argument.

Apple doesn't play the market share game. Usage share is different. Devs don't care about cheap androids if they are only used as feature phones.

Macs are still 10% or so. If apple truly wanted market share, they would release cheap macs or the forsaken Netbook.
post #56 of 73

Again, I am not suggesting Apple won't introduce, or transform their existing base phone into a less expensive version as they did the iPod touch. 

 

Quote:
I'm thinking iPod touch with 16GB storage at $399 for the new iPhone {something} and the iPhone 5 will be renamed simply iPhone?  

 

What I am suggesting is that Apple won't release a cheaper, plastic $99 phone simply to gain market share as that phone, in my opinion, will greatly reduce the user experience, something Apple clearly is more concerned about than number of sales. 

post #57 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

Macs are still 10% or so. If apple truly wanted market share, they would release cheap macs or the forsaken Netbook.

 

Excellent point. 

 

Apple also does not currently make any plastic products, with the exception of their Airport which I guess is some plastic composite. 

post #58 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


It's amazing how infrequently they can do that...

Except of course the answer was given multiple times this thread. Reduced component costs, reduced margins.

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post #59 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


Apple doesn't play the market share game. Usage share is different. Devs don't care about cheap androids if they are only used as feature phones.

Macs are still 10% or so. If apple truly wanted market share, they would release cheap macs or the forsaken Netbook.

Apple tried the Mini. It didn't work because it was a decade too late.  However it is most certainly a cheap PC.

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post #60 of 73
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Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

 

Excellent point. 

 

Apple also does not currently make any plastic products, with the exception of their Airport which I guess is some plastic composite. 

Apple used to produce plastic iBooks. I am not sure what kind of argument that even is? There was a time when Apple didn't produce phones. Now they do. They do stuff they haven't before sometimes. In this case they have before.


Edited by asdasd - 6/14/13 at 8:12am
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post #61 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

 

Show me where Apple has introduced a cheaper product to gain market share? Keep in mind the difference of form factor (different iPods and iPads) to meet size/function needs for different markets vs. simply making a cheaper version of the same. 

The iPad mini. The iPod touch - which is way cheaper than the original classic, originally costing about $400. Maybe thats $500 today. The mini. 

 

And to hell with this dumb restriction not allowing different form factors. If they are cheaper, they are cheaper.

 

The iPad mini was getting the exact same arguments against last year, even as the components rolled out. Apple doesn't do cheap. And the people who were wrong then are wrong now. Always wrong, always arrogant about being wrong.Still waiting for an iPhone 6. Or 7 this year.

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post #62 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

Apple tried the Mini. It didn't work because it was a decade too late.  However it is most certainly a cheap PC.

How do you know it didn't work. The mini is stll $600 without any accessories or monitor. You can get a cheap ass PC for half that price. Of course you'll get what you paid for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

The iPad mini. The iPod touch - which is way cheaper than the original classic, originally costing about $400. Maybe thats $500 today. The mini. 

And to hell with this dumb restriction not allowing different form factors. If they are cheaper, they are cheaper.

The iPad mini was getting the exact same arguments against last year, even as the components rolled out. Apple doesn't do cheap. And the people who were wrong then are wrong now. Always wrong, always arrogant about being wrong.Still waiting for an iPhone 6. Or 7 this year.

The first touch at $300 only had 8GB. The 2007 classic was $250 with 80GB.

There isn't room for the iPhone to shrink. The iPad could shrink to be the mini. You want to give a cheap iPhone only 4GB and a 3" display?
post #63 of 73

The original iPod in October 2001 cost $399. It had a mechanical wheel. I have one. And I got it that month.

 

Nobody is saying the cheap iPhones will shrink, as far as I can see. Shrinking may increase the costs, increasing the size with a plastic case could reduce costs. They may not increase size on the lower end model yet though - as they will want to make sure that the top end also has that size ( but then, there are rumors that the next top end iPhone is not due until 2014).

 

The main driver of price reductions will be reductions in margins.

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post #64 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

The original iPod in October 2001 cost $399. It had a mechanical wheel. I have one. And I got it that month.

Nobody is saying the cheap iPhones will shrink, as far as I can see. Shrinking may increase the costs, increasing the size with a plastic case could reduce costs. They may not increase size on the lower end model yet though - as they will want to make sure that the top end also has that size ( but then, there are rumors that the next top end iPhone is not due until 2014).

The main driver of price reductions will be reductions in margins.
Why are you comparing a 2007 iPod to a 2001 version? I could compare a $1100 iMac with a $2300 power Mac 7500 from 1996. See, they did go cheap. It won't make any sense.

Oh and Apple isn't going to reduce margins just to make something cheaper. There has to be logical reasons to lower margins but market share isn't one if them.
post #65 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


There has to be logical reasons to lower margins but market share isn't one if them.

 

China Mobile

 

You figure it out.

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post #66 of 73
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Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

Why are you comparing a 2007 iPod to a 2001 version? I could compare a $1100 iMac with a $2300 power Mac 7500 from 1996. See, they did go cheap. It won't make any sense.

Oh and Apple isn't going to reduce margins just to make something cheaper. There has to be logical reasons to lower margins but market share isn't one if them.

I am comparing 2001 to 2007 in iPods because we are comparing 2007 to 2013 in iPhones.

Remedially yours.

Asd
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post #67 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

What I am suggesting is that Apple won't release a cheaper, plastic $99 phone simply to gain market share as that phone, in my opinion, will greatly reduce the user experience, something Apple clearly is more concerned about than number of sales. 

 

Nevertheless, Tim Cook does clearly care a lot about number of sales.

 

Witness the extra effort to in China and India, with trade-in programs and payment plans.

 

As for reducing the user experience, I don't think a plastic body alone would do that.  Past plastic iPhones were just fine.  (Fit the hand better, too.  Make a plastic one that's water and dust resistant, and I think it would be  a hit in many parts of the world.)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

Oh and Apple isn't going to reduce margins just to make something cheaper.  There has to be logical reasons to lower margins but market share isn't one if them.

 

The iPad mini exists specifically to get mid-sized tablet market share, and they were willing to accept lower cash margins to get into that market.   Yes, I know the argument that it's not the same as making a cheaper iPad, but since it cannibalizes that model, it's the market equivalent.

 

I think what you're all trying to say is that you don't think Apple (or at least, the old Jobs Apple) would make what you consider to be a junk phone... although no one has specified what the definition of that is.

 

For example, a plastic case alone doesn't mean a phone is junk, unless you think past iPhones were junk. Likewise, they continue to sell phones with two year old technology, but they're not junk either. 

 

So what exactly would constitute an actual junk iPhone?  Non-retina?  That doesn't seem enough to qualify, either.  Thoughts?

post #68 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

 

Nevertheless, Tim Cook does clearly care a lot about number of sales.

 

Witness the extra effort to in China and India, with trade-in programs and payment plans.

 

As for reducing the user experience, I don't think a plastic body alone would do that.  Past plastic iPhones were just fine.  (Fit the hand better, too.  Make a plastic one that's water and dust resistant, and I think it would be  a hit in many parts of the world.)

 

 

Excellent point, thank you. Apple has made effort, that does not reduce the user experience, to put phones into more people's hands. 

 

If you think Apple will release a plastic phone, please show me what product Apple has currently in plastic? Okay, the Airport is plastic and I think the Apple TV are, but they are not in the category of products we are discussing. No iPod, iPad, or Mac is currently plastic so I don't see the iPhone going that way. 

 

Again, if they do go with an entry iPhone, it will probably be modeled after the new iPod Touch. 

post #69 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

Apple used to produce plastic iBooks. I am not sure what kind of argument that even is? There was a time when Apple didn't produce phones. Now they do. They do stuff they haven't before sometimes. In this case they have before.

 

Yes and I use to have a CRT monitor also and my first monitor was green. What is your point again? 

post #70 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

The iPad mini. The iPod touch - which is way cheaper than the original classic, originally costing about $400. Maybe thats $500 today. The mini. 

 

And to hell with this dumb restriction not allowing different form factors. If they are cheaper, they are cheaper.

 

The iPad mini was getting the exact same arguments against last year, even as the components rolled out. Apple doesn't do cheap. And the people who were wrong then are wrong now. Always wrong, always arrogant about being wrong.Still waiting for an iPhone 6. Or 7 this year.

 

Once again, you point to a form factor to meet a market need and attribute it to Apple reaching for market share. The iPad mini is not a "cheaper version" of the iPad, but a smaller form factor. Yes it started out with a non Retina screen, which was probably to keep a price point they thought was need to sell this size until they could produce enough Retina screens at a cost savings to add to the mini. 

 

Again, you look at things from the Microsoft Marketing point of "how can we gain more market share" vs. Apple, which is probably "how can we create really cool products everyone wants to buy". 

post #71 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

Every year the same arguments. In 2015 Apple won't be producing cheaper TVs despite the Android competition.

 

And yet, each year Apple products keep getting better and better in build and quality. 

post #72 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

 

I agree that simply making the phone plastic won't do anything for the price. 

 

But, I would assume if a cheaper iPhone were to happen it wouldn't be that much cheaper than Apple's current handsets. I could see a device akin to the 4S sold for $399. That's only $50 less than the 4S would be sold for anyway. Apple could figure out a way to assemble the new handset that's easier and cheaper than the 4/4S currently are, and that would help them retain their margins or possible even grow them. In order to avoid cannibalization with the 5/5S, Apple can disable some of iOS 7's graphical elements as they are going to do with the iPhone 4, and use a smaller 5MP camera as well as limit the device to 8GB of storage. With less onboard storage Apple could convince more people to utilize the benefits of iCloud and iTunes Radio.

 

With all that said, I don't see a sub-$300 from Apple anytime soon.

 

I posted before, and continually, that if Apple places an iPhone into the entry level, it would be more like the new iPod rather than just last years phone. However, what I see happening mores is what I think you are commenting towards, a reduction in price point. 

 

Remember when Apple finally gave iOS for free on the iPod Touch stating "we finally found a way to do that"?

 

Option #1 will be for them to finally find a way to sell the oldest iPhone for the cheapest possible price, probably due to component aging giving the needed reduction in raw materials. 

 

Option #2 might be to rebrand the iPhone 4s with stripped down features of the iPod Touch (single camera, 16GB storage) to iPhone Mini and move the iPhone 5s to just the iPhone. Same as the iPod naming scheme, and the size would even match up. This new iPhone Mini will have slower improvements while the iPhone will remain the flagship. 

post #73 of 73
1hmm.gif iPhones are not pricey. You can get the iPhone 5 under $200 with a new contract..
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