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First look: iWork for iCloud beta brings powerful productivity to the Web - Page 2

post #41 of 65
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Isn't this a bit of a silly thing to say?  

 

To use Google Docs "all you need is an email address." How is this substantially different from iCloud where "all you need is an Apple ID" (which is 99.9% of the time … an email address).  You're making a false distinction.  

 

No, as TimmyDax pointed out, you need to own an Apple device. You can't just open up a free iCloud account and start editing documents. This is a significant impediment to iWorks becoming an open standard for collaboration in the way the Google Docs is.


Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

So? What's your point?

 

My point is that iWorks will still not be good for open collaboration, because it will only function for people who own Apple devices. So, Apple still does not have the ubiquity of MS Office, and it doesn't have the "it works everywhere for free" aspect of Google Docs, and so iWorks is still not going to gain any significant penetration. It's fine for those who use it, but, most people won't.

 

As a long time Apple watcher, I've seen this over and over again. Apple makes a big deal out of some software package (HyperCard, AppleWorks etc), then a few years later it lets it slide. Then the package is forgotten and all the users are SOL. Apple is not a software or a services company. Apple is a hardware company in that it's business model is designed around making money from selling hardware. Apple ultimately does not care if you get annoyed with them because some application package they sold you isn't being updated or is missing features. As long as you keep buying their hardware, you can complain all you like. In this way, their software only needs to be good enough to keep you buying their hardware. I think the one case where this is not true is the OS. Apple does view the OS and the hardware as being almost one-in-the-same. They make great operating systems. Don't use their applications if you can avoid it.

post #42 of 65
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Originally Posted by japm View Post

yawn

-1
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Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

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Originally Posted by japm View Post

yawn

I don't see how the **** people like you don't get banned. The fact that you take the time to click on this article, type a one word response like that, and post is, is evidence enough for your intentions here- as are all your previous posts. Get a life. 

+1
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post #43 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by graxspoo View Post

I think Apple should open these programs up to everyone, not just owners of Apple devices. It's the only way this suite will blunt the advance of Google Docs. You can't do group collaboration if it's "for Apple people only" and that's one of the big benefits of having packages like this on the web. It's so incredibly handy to be able to make a Google document and share it around saying "OK everybody enter your information."

 

Just so you know... They demoed this live on stage using a computer running Windows 8, through a Chrome browser. Obviously it could also have been a computer running a version of Unix through a "whatever" browser. This is EXACTLY what you are asking for. 

 

Granted, only OSX and iOS have actual programs of iWorks on them, but anyone can run the programs on the Cloud. 

 

They also showed opening a MS Word document using iWork Pages on the cloud. This is extremely important as not everyone will need MS Office to exchange documents with iPads and iPhones (since MS hasn't made Office available for these devices). Which means any lingering interest in the SurfaceRT Tablet evaporates along with its crippled version of Office.

 

I couldn't understand why AI didn't make this one announcement the headline article last Monday. THIS is huge!!

"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #44 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by graxspoo View Post

 

(1) No, as TimmyDax pointed out, you need to own an Apple device. You can't just open up a free iCloud account and start editing documents. This is a significant impediment to iWorks becoming an open standard for collaboration in the way the Google Docs is.

 

(2) My point is that iWorks will still not be good for open collaboration, because it will only function for people who own Apple devices. So, Apple still does not have the ubiquity of MS Office, and it doesn't have the "it works everywhere for free" aspect of Google Docs, and so iWorks is still not going to gain any significant penetration. It's fine for those who use it, but, most people won't.

 

(3) As a long time Apple watcher, I've seen this over and over again. Apple makes a big deal out of some software package (HyperCard, AppleWorks etc), then a few years later it lets it slide. Then the package is forgotten and all the users are SOL. Apple is not a software or a services company. Apple is a hardware company in that it's business model is designed around making money from selling hardware. Apple ultimately does not care if you get annoyed with them because some application package they sold you isn't being updated or is missing features. As long as you keep buying their hardware, you can complain all you like. In this way, their software only needs to be good enough to keep you buying their hardware. I think the one case where this is not true is the OS. Apple does view the OS and the hardware as being almost one-in-the-same. They make great operating systems. Don't use their applications if you can avoid it.

As to your points (1) and (2): Yes a person needs to own an Apple device to have an iCloud device. So, what's so bad about that? A person needs to be an Apple hater to not own an iPhone, or an iPad, or an iPod Touch. Most corporate, institutional and government bodies prefer the Apple phone, or tablet over other brands, so unless you live under a rock, you have one of these devices. Apple was smart enough to include Windows PCs into the list of computers that can sync with iDevices in the iCloud, and the sync experience is the easiest ever! 

 

As to your final point (3): Apple has earned the complaint you made. However, it is more of a characteristic of Apple circa last century, then of Apple this century. No other software package is as complete as MS Office, however it is so feature rich as to be overblown and buggy. Apple designs for ease of use which may well keep it sporting less features than Office apps. If they open up iWorks to where developers can write add-ons then everyone's favorite feature could be accommodated as needed.

"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #45 of 65
Nice and al that it's web based now, but where are the new features? I feel like real innovation of iWorks has come to a complete halt. Where is my unlimited canvas that I can fly over like Prezi? Not impressed!
post #46 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

Just so you know... They demoed this live on stage using a computer running Windows 8, through a Chrome browser. Obviously it could also have been a computer running a version of Unix through a "whatever" browser. This is EXACTLY what you are asking for. 

Granted, only OSX and iOS have actual programs of iWorks on them, but anyone can run the programs on the Cloud. 

They also showed opening a MS Word document using iWork Pages on the cloud. This is extremely important as not everyone will need MS Office to exchange documents with iPads and iPhones (since MS hasn't made Office available for these devices). Which means any lingering interest in the SurfaceRT Tablet evaporates along with its crippled version of Office.

I couldn't understand why AI didn't make this one announcement the headline article last Monday. THIS is huge!!

So really, the only people who benefit from this are users of iPhone/iPod touch who have a PC? Wouldn't a slimmer iTunes be a more appropriate concern for these folks?

I absolutely fail to see any reason this exists other than a good demo of the power of web apps (or programming full apps in JavaScript, if you like), and see Zero benefit for Mac users. Is it nice to be able to edit iWork docs on a PC (for example, at work)? Sure. Does it outweigh literally years of iWork development? No. Sure, Apple are a hardware company. But when you pay for their software, they are presenting themselves as a software company as well. They haven't been living up to that self-imposed position for a while now.
post #47 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

As to your points (1) and (2): Yes a person needs to own an Apple device to have an iCloud device. So, what's so bad about that? A person needs to be an Apple hater to not own an iPhone, or an iPad, or an iPod Touch.

 

Maybe you don't read the stats but if you add together all the Android phones out there, they vastly outnumber iPhones. Windows machines are still like 90% of the PC market. Apple is a great company in many ways, and many people own their products, but it's a fraction of the US population, let alone the world population. This means if I belong to a club or an organization or whatever, I can't throw an iWork document out there and say "Hey everybody, log on and add your information", because I can't assume that everyone owns some Apple iCloud gizmo.

 

I'm definitely not an Apple hater, but I'm don't own any iOS devices (my wife has an iPad), and my Macs are still running Snow Leopard. So, case in point, even though I've owned many Apple products over the years, and will continue to buy their products when they serve my needs, I don't have an iCloud account, and may not for quite awhile. I resist iCloud because I remember eWorld and AppleConnect and MobileMe and .Mac and iTools. Every online service Apple has ever attempted has failed, and from what I've heard from developers iCloud is also seriously flawed. I don't really want to get all cozy with a ship that's sinking. This is another version of my warning against using Apple's applications. I would feel much happier about Apple if they were partnering with Google for maps and DropBox for online storage rather than trying to do everything themselves. The platform would be healthier, IMO, if users could mix and match service solutions that fit their needs, rather than Apple doing it all. From my point of view this "we must do everything ourselves" is the (possibly unavoidable) dark-side of Apple's creative brilliance. 

post #48 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by graxspoo View Post

...if you add together all the Android phones out there, they vastly outnumber iPhones. Windows machines are still like 90% of the PC market ... I can't assume that everyone owns some Apple iCloud gizmo...

... don't own any iOS devices...

...I remember eWorld and AppleConnect and MobileMe and .Mac and iTools. Every online service Apple has ever attempted has failed...

...this "we must do everything ourselves" is the (possibly unavoidable) dark-side of Apple's creative brilliance. 

Interesting. I would argue that the userbase of Android and Windows are irrelevant to Apple for the most part, that iCloud is largely a syncing service (an so inappropriate for you specifically), that Apple has no more failed with its online offerings than lost interest in them, and that Apple offers more integration with other company's services and is less "we must do everything ourselves" than Google or Microsoft, for example.

To me, it seems like there's a problem of focus with Apple's web design team. They seem to be more concerned with doing cool shit than achieving a particular goal; they're not alone in this, it's an industry-wide affectation.
post #49 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

-1
+1

We don't make use of it yet, but the "plus ones" actually have a record-keeping system in Huddler, and it's conceivable that we could turn it on and use that to have an at-a-glance way of determining community trust/agreement with a user's views.

The "plussing" is weighted, so users with more posts add more than just +1 to another user's score when they hit that button. Your post count and points received directly from "plus one" determine your weight.

Interestingly, the system allows negative numbers, despite only having a "plus one" button. Maybe you get negatives if you're issued an infraction or temporary ban or something.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #50 of 65
The URL is, by the way, beta.icloud.com
post #51 of 65

This is a pretty awesome web app. And don't worry there will be newer versions for the iPhone and Mac later.

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post #52 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


We don't make use of it yet, but the "plus ones" actually have a record-keeping system in Huddler, and it's conceivable that we could turn it on and use that to have an at-a-glance way of determining community trust/agreement with a user's views.

The "plussing" is weighted, so users with more posts add more than just +1 to another user's score when they hit that button. Your post count and points received directly from "plus one" determine your weight.

Interestingly, the system allows negative numbers, despite only having a "plus one" button. Maybe you get negatives if you're issued an infraction or temporary ban or something.

Start doing that and this place will become a clique or diminishing like minded people, with no criticism of Apple allowed.

 

A thanks is ok, though. Non weighted

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post #53 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

This is a pretty awesome web app. And don't worry there will be newer versions for the iPhone and Mac later.

 

I doubt that...the web version will I think be the new iWork. If you want to use Pages you open it from the web. 

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post #54 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyDax View Post


Short answer - no.

Since iCloud exists for Apple hardware users only, surely this just undercuts existing iWork apps or replicates their functionality if... what, users want to use their PC instead?

You really need to watch the WWDC keynote where this is shown, around the 1:00:00 point in the presentation.

 

Specifically where they show iWork for iCloud documents being worked on from a Windows PC in a Windows browser.

 

They mentioned three browsers being supported: Safari, IE, and Chrome. OS X, iOS and Windows.

post #55 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


We don't make use of it yet, but the "plus ones" actually have a record-keeping system in Huddler, and it's conceivable that we could turn it on and use that to have an at-a-glance way of determining community trust/agreement with a user's views.

The "plussing" is weighted, so users with more posts add more than just +1 to another user's score when they hit that button. Your post count and points received directly from "plus one" determine your weight.

Interestingly, the system allows negative numbers, despite only having a "plus one" button. Maybe you get negatives if you're issued an infraction or temporary ban or something.

Start doing that and this place will become a clique or diminishing like minded people, with no criticism of Apple allowed.

 

Not just that: if people who post a lot get more weight, that means people producing a lot of hot air get more weight, i.e. the quality of the forum will take even more of a nose-dive than it has over the last few years.

 

We've already too many people who recently "saw the light of Apple" and who act as if they were co-founders of the religion; trying to step on often well-founded criticism by people who have been riding this Apple bus since before it hit a public street.

post #56 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by graxspoo View Post

 

No, as TimmyDax pointed out, you need to own an Apple device. You can't just open up a free iCloud account and start editing documents. This is a significant impediment to iWorks becoming an open standard for collaboration in the way the Google Docs is.

 

My point is that iWorks will still not be good for open collaboration, because it will only function for people who own Apple devices. ...

 

Apple is not a software or a services company. Apple is a hardware company in that it's business model is designed around making money from selling hardware. Apple ultimately does not care if you get annoyed with them because some application package they sold you isn't being updated or is missing features. As long as you keep buying their hardware, you can complain all you like. In this way, their software only needs to be good enough to keep you buying their hardware. ...

 

Frankly, I think you're mistaken about what your point is. Your point seems to be that you don't like Apple.

 

As for the rest, Apple is, if you have to pick one or the other, a software company that subsidizes its software development through hardware sales. So, why would they provide software free to use for people who don't buy their hardware?

 

Unlike Microsoft and Google, Apple isn't about "taking over the world". If that makes you unhappy, well, deal with it.

post #57 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyDax View Post

I absolutely fail to see any reason this exists other than a good demo of the power of web apps (or programming full apps in JavaScript, if you like), and see Zero benefit for Mac users. Is it nice to be able to edit iWork docs on a PC (for example, at work)? Sure. Does it outweigh literally years of iWork development? No. Sure, Apple are a hardware company. But when you pay for their software, they are presenting themselves as a software company as well. They haven't been living up to that self-imposed position for a while now.

This is a killer app for schools. For example, I'm on the board of an elementary school that's moving from paper to e-textbooks, including providing iPads for the upper grades (5-8). This means that they can start a presentation/project/report on the iPad in class, then continue working on it at home, whether they've got a Mac, a Windows PC, or an iPad ... it doesn't matter. They continue using what they already have, and don't have to shell out scarce dollars to be able to do it.

 

Which is a big deal in this economy in a rural-ish district.

post #58 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

We don't make use of it yet, but the "plus ones" actually have a record-keeping system in Huddler, and it's conceivable that we could turn it on and use that to have an at-a-glance way of determining community trust/agreement with a user's views.

The "plussing" is weighted, so users with more posts add more than just +1 to another user's score when they hit that button. Your post count and points received directly from "plus one" determine your weight.

Interestingly, the system allows negative numbers, despite only having a "plus one" button. Maybe you get negatives if you're issued an infraction or temporary ban or something.

Hmm, interesting. Yeah, add a minus button, thumbs-down button and a counter as well. But first, please fix the broken links in the email notifications. Hitting 'See this post' gets me nowhere.
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post #59 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

Frankly, I think you're mistaken about what your point is. Your point seems to be that you don't like Apple.

 

As for the rest, Apple is, if you have to pick one or the other, a software company that subsidizes its software development through hardware sales. So, why would they provide software free to use for people who don't buy their hardware?

 

Unlike Microsoft and Google, Apple isn't about "taking over the world". If that makes you unhappy, well, deal with it.


I wouldn't necessarily draw those conclusions about Graxs...I think his point is well taken, though maybe slightly over-reacting.  iWork via cloud is definitely a step in the right direction as with many other iOS 7 and Mavericks improvements bring (like tabbed finder...finally!).  Many of us look forward to these improvements, many of us are still fans of Apple, but many of us also have a bland taste in our mouths in regards to me/mobileme, maps, iwork (esp. Numbers), and the increasingly bloated iTunes.  I realize there is no perfect ecosystem out there...Apple is still the best.  I'm personally interested in Apple's weaknesses (as well as its strengths) but more importantly, how those weaknesses are evolving into strengths.  Understanding that helps me to more prudently invest/divest in terms of buying hardware or buying shares.  I don't think I'm alone.

 

As for your 2nd point, I could see Apple wanting to increase market/mind share of iWork for free...as a halo for Macs ("Hey!  You mean I don't have to spend $150 to buy MS office when I buy a Mac?").

 

Separate point - If requirement is to have Apple hardware to get iWork via cloud...that should be changed...I'm not sure why Apple doesn't change that to those that have iTunes accounts.

post #60 of 65

Originally Posted by bwik View Post

Does it work offline, or without using compromised, government-visible cloud storage?

 

You know... basically is it worth a damn?


Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

For the record, Apple's iCloud is more secure and access to your files is less likely to be given to the government than Google's stuff.  But it's a very fine distinction, and when you live in a police state, you got to expect this sort of thing.  

 

+1 for working offline.

 

I can't understand why people would put any documents that aren't completely public "in the cloud", ever.   I understand the appeal, but there are a lot of things that sound cool and shiny until you dig under the hood and think about long-term effects.  Like Google services, ugh.

 

It's fine that Apple creates additional productivity tools for different markets and usage scenarios, but apparently they are doing so at the expense of the current iWork, which has been languishing since 2009 - that's half a lifetime in computer years!  The current versions of Pages and Numbers are still missing basic features, and it's been more than 4 years since it's been updated.  Crazy.

 

As for cloud vs. offline work, at least a couple of you "get it" (quoted), but people need to understand that documents in the cloud might as well be documents on a billboard.  It's not quite that bad, but they are NOT private.  Apple may be somewhat better than Google, but anything and everything in the cloud is subject to:

1) Government inspection, analysis and archival

2) loss by accident (Apple screws up)

3) loss or unauthorized edits by mal intent (compromised accounts)

4) full public disclosure (passwords get published or Apple or any of their partners screw up)

5) probably a host of other potential problems.

 

If you are a corporation working on documents that should never be seen in public, you'll never use these cloud products. 

 

If you work in a lab or other sensitive environment where the computers are not connected to the internet, you cannot use these products.

 

Apple, you need to make sure the real desktop iWork is the showcase product, then go ahead and do these side-projects like cloud-based iWork.  They may be fine for personal crap, but never make the mistake that they are a replacement for real work.

 

The one thing that Apple could do to make these apps actually useful is to simply allow users to point to their own secure servers, rather than iCloud.  THAT would be great for all kinds of individuals and organizations, whether personal, small business, big business or government.  It wouldn't take much effort at all, and wouldn't take anything away from those that are fine with the current setup.

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post #61 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveH View Post

This is a killer app for schools. For example, I'm on the board of an elementary school that's moving from paper to e-textbooks, including providing iPads for the upper grades (5-8). This means that they can start a presentation/project/report on the iPad in class, then continue working on it at home, whether they've got a Mac, a Windows PC, or an iPad ... it doesn't matter. They continue using what they already have, and don't have to shell out scarce dollars to be able to do it.

 

If you're really on a school board, I hope you think twice about this and educate your fellow board members about the risks of kids under the age of 13 hosting their documents on public servers.  First, kids under the age of 13 are legally restricted from using a lot of online services.  I haven't delved into iCloud ToS, but kids cannot use Google Docs and similar services for good reason.

 

I would highly recommend talking with your district's legal team about whether you need to get each and every parent to sign off on their kids sending and storing personal documents (lots of kids write very personal stuff in their stories and classwork) over public commercial servers.  Remember, absolutely nothing on any cloud server is truly private.

 

As I mentioned above, all Apple has to do is allow users to point to their own server, rather than one big (target) public server, at which point most of these problems go away, as long as you trust the security models.

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post #62 of 65
Not mentioned here but the new iCloud will have a portion that you can share, so things made in the cloud can be handed off to your poorer PC cousin.
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post #63 of 65
You and TimmyDax keep saying that an iCould account requires iDevice ownership. What on the Apple form for creating an Apple ID makes you think so?
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post #64 of 65

Is it confirmed that iWork icloud is free for idevice users? Or its free for owners of iWork, like if you bought pages on Mac or iOS, you get iCloud pages too? But as it is, if you own Pages on Mac, you do need to buy Pages for iOS separately, hard to imagine you get it free if you own an ipad or whatever, why don't I get Pages for iPad free now if that's the case?

post #65 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

Unlike Microsoft and Google, Apple isn't about "taking over the world". If that makes you unhappy, well, deal with it.

 

Oh don't be so naive, that is the goal of every multinational company. I think Apple makes neat hardware and they server my purpose just fine but the amount of blind admiration that some you have for them is just plain weird and unhealthy. If it was legal, Apple would probably prefer to bury you in an unmarked grave somewhere in the desert then acknowledge your existence. I think I would be afraid to leave you alone with my iMac, you can like an inanimate object, just don't LOVE it, gums up the works.

 

Please note I was just be silly.1tongue.gif

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