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Developer secretly tested new Mac Pro for weeks inside Apple's 'Evil Lab' - Page 5

post #161 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by mess View Post

I don't need all of that GPU power in my industry.  I could use it if someone would write the software to do complex DSP using it, but otherwise it is useless to me.

I expect they'll allow you to choose the base GPUs and just increase the CPU to 12-core. Also Avid approved the PCIe expansion chassis:

http://www.magma.com/blog/avid-approves-magma-eb3t-eb7-pro-tools

They have a video of it running here over optical Thunderbolt connected to a Macbook Pro:



If the main requirement is the cards, it could be a better option to get a Mac Mini or MBP with a quad-i7, put in 16GB of RAM and get the PCIe box with some cards. The expansion chassis options are expensive just now. I don't know if they're just trying to cash in on people moving to TB but I don't see how a board with PCI slots, a PSU and a metal box needs to be nearly $1k to turn a profit.

Sonnet has a single slot box for half-length cards at $500 but even that's expensive for what you get:

http://store1.sonnettech.com/product_info.php?&products_id=402
post #162 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I expect they'll allow you to choose the base GPUs and just increase the CPU to 12-core. Also Avid approved the PCIe expansion chassis:

They have a video of it running here over optical Thunderbolt connected to a Macbook
For many users this will actually be an improvement over the current practice of putting the cards in the Mac Pro and routing a lot of cable to it. You in effect can put the I/O cards closer to where they need to be used.
Quote:

If the main requirement is the cards, it could be a better option to get a Mac Mini or MBP with a quad-i7, put in 16GB of RAM and get the PCIe box with some cards.
Well if they get TB 2 it will be very viable. What this highlights is the choice that Thunderbolt offers Mac users. A developer could start out with a project developed on a MBP and deliver the final results on a Mac Pro or a Mini which ever may be the logical solution.
Quote:
The expansion chassis options are expensive just now. I don't know if they're just trying to cash in on people moving to TB but I don't see how a board with PCI slots, a PSU and a metal box needs to be nearly $1k to turn a profit.
Low volume is a killer. Further you need to size the power supplies to be fairly hefty to support the possible loading in the chassis. In the end though I suspect volume is the big issue, I see this all the time in industrial parts I buy. They may only be selling one of these chassis a day if that, even with a fat profit that will not sustain a company. A profit of $500 per day isn't doing much for a company that has to support multiple engineers, accountant, office personnel, the executive staff and everything else.
Quote:
Sonnet has a single slot box for half-length cards at $500 but even that's expensive for what you get:

A bag full of hurt!

Sadly I don't see for a way for them to address the cost issue until they can move product in volume. More so somebody needs to set a generic "mother board" standard for these products. Sort of like the ATX standard but in this case a standard for TB connected PCI Express motherboards. I'm not sure what is wrong with Apple and Intel here, both of these actors should realize the value in standardized I/O and card formats. A standard here should define the location of the I/O chips, other interface hardware and the position of the power supply and fans. In other words I should be able to move a TB based PCI Express motherboard from chassis to chassis at will.
post #163 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by mess View Post

Yes, it does depend on the industry the device is being used for -- I couldn't agree more.  It also depends on what direction the computing industry moves in…
The way I see it this the whole point behind the new Mac Pro it acknowledges where the industry is going. By nessecity devices will be smaller to allow running at higher speeds. New RAM standard for example require that RAM be soldered on the motherboard to realize the full speed potential. That RAM may even come in 3D packaging.
Quote:
Your other comments don't seem to reflect reality to me -- at least not yet.  I don't need all of that GPU power in my industry.  I could use it if someone would write the software to do complex DSP using it, but otherwise it is useless to me.  Also, I wouldn't mind buying a new machine every two or three years if the cost was at a disposable level. 
GPUs are very good for some forms of DSP work so once this new Mac Pro gets established expect to see many apps and libraries become available for it. As for GPU power, Apple uses the term "up to" several times in its documentation, they debuted model is most likely the top end model.
Quote:
I would gladly move to Thunderbolt devices if the industry I work in would produce them as tools for my work, and I could find them for a reasonable price.  
What industry? Honestly I don't see a mad rush to TB, it has its niche and will slowly expand from there.
Quote:
PCIe is still readily available at a reasonable cost.  When will these Thunderbolt devices arrive -- I'd like to know! Unfortunately
 it isn't right now and I'm in a position where I've waited far to long already…
Buy an old Mac model. I understand the PCI Express issue. But it isn't a massive part of Apples installed base and much of that installed space already has alternative TB based hardware. So while not a 100% pleased with this move on Apples part I understand some of the thinking. This machine is the way forward. Yes it is bleeding edge and the rest of the industry needs to catch up but on the other hand core industries to Apple are already delivering TB based hardware. Frankly this whining is no different than what we heard with the AT bus the the PCI bus then the PCI Express bus. Each node brings on a few transitional bumps.
Edited by wizard69 - 6/19/13 at 6:13pm
post #164 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by mess View Post

It's really funny how one can take a statement and twist into something that is totally out of context isn't it? 

As for your genuine question, what if it isn't just storage we're talking about or what even if it is your favorite PCIe flash?  Sixteen (that's 16 -- not 6) lanes of PCIe in v3 gives us ~15 giga BYTES per second. Technology
 will continue
 to march on!
That is really only of importance if you have hardware to take advantage of those speed. Currently GPU cards do as do a few other cards. However you make a fatal assumption here that TB will never improve. It most certainly will though the next transition might be fiber only. For the majority of the users out there Apple has them covered with the dual high performance GPUs. The vast majority of the user base needs very little else in he way of high speed I/O. It still comes down to this; TB is still faster than the bulk storage arrays most people are likely to use. In fact for many users USB 3 likely can handle their I/O loads.
Quote:
This machine is an amazing design and raises the bar to new heights, but as far as allowing it to be customized to a specific use/industry's need -- if this is all Apple is going to offer, they have missed most of us IMHO -- especially if it comes in at a cost that is not on the disposable level…
Apple will only mis out on those users that have performance needs beyond this machine or those users that are too ignorant to realize this is the way forward. In both cases that is an exceedingly small portion of the user population.
Quote:
Oh and BTW you still sound condescending!

My god listen to yourself. You seem to think that you can speak for the entire user community and tell them just what they need. Nice! As for missing customers I think it will be just the opposite, price this right and Apple will have far more Mac Pro customer than they ever had. Plus software developer will flock to the machine simply because it is a standard configuration with a given amount of performance. Thus is a machine that will inspire software developers and users alike.
post #165 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


That is really only of importance if you have hardware to take advantage of those speed. Currently GPU cards do as do a few other cards. However you make a fatal assumption here that TB will never improve. It most certainly will though the next transition might be fiber only. For the majority of the users out there Apple has them covered with the dual high performance GPUs. The vast majority of the user base needs very little else in he way of high speed I/O. It still comes down to this; TB is still faster than the bulk storage arrays most people are likely to use. In fact for many users USB 3 likely can handle their I/O loads.
Apple will only mis out on those users that have performance needs beyond this machine or those users that are too ignorant to realize this is the way forward. In both cases that is an exceedingly small portion of the user population.
My god listen to yourself. You seem to think that you can speak for the entire user community and tell them just what they need. Nice! As for missing customers I think it will be just the opposite, price this right and Apple will have far more Mac Pro customer than they ever had. Plus software developer will flock to the machine simply because it is a standard configuration with a given amount of performance. Thus is a machine that will inspire software developers and users alike.

Yes… I am listening to myself.  I'm not lamenting the design  -- I think it great, but this forum is so APPLE's WAY or THE HIGHWAY it is ridiculous. If you and APPLE can't see that this meets even a smaller spectrum of users then before, then you have blinders on!  There are MANY other uses for high power PCs than the segment this seems to be directed at.  My company adopted some Apple products in the middle of the last decade because it opened up OPTIONS not closed them down!  The OPINIONS given here ALL have downsides that are not considered -- and seems that YOU would prefer to remain hidden.  If someone tries to point them out, they are jumped on with other ridiculous one sided OPINIONS as if YOU are the only experts in existence.  Sorry but YES, I consider this to be a very closed minded forum and thread!  

 

I admit I DON'T KNOW WHAT APPLE will actually release -- but if this is the only option -- well I think I've expressed that I can't go down that path.

 

I suggest you listen to someone else besides yourself.  The very idea that one can be successful by NOT listening is ludicrous…


Edited by mess - 6/20/13 at 3:34am
post #166 of 176

PCI express?

 

I wonder how many of those gumtree advert Mac Pros have innards packed with 4 HDs...and 2 gpus...etc.

 

What's the figure being bandied about that 80% of Mac Pros don't bother with the empty box other than what they configured?  Makes the 20% that do seem irrelevant.

 

They can scream.  Apple have brought the tablets of stone down from the mountain top.

 

It's faster everything in a smaller box.

 

Empty big box?  Gets taken outside care of TB2.

 

Can't wait for the launch.

 

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #167 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


I expect they'll allow you to choose the base GPUs and just increase the CPU to 12-core. Also Avid approved the PCIe expansion chassis:

http://www.magma.com/blog/avid-approves-magma-eb3t-eb7-pro-tools

They have a video of it running here over optical Thunderbolt connected to a Macbook Pro:



If the main requirement is the cards, it could be a better option to get a Mac Mini or MBP with a quad-i7, put in 16GB of RAM and get the PCIe box with some cards. The expansion chassis options are expensive just now. I don't know if they're just trying to cash in on people moving to TB but I don't see how a board with PCI slots, a PSU and a metal box needs to be nearly $1k to turn a profit.

Sonnet has a single slot box for half-length cards at $500 but even that's expensive for what you get:

http://store1.sonnettech.com/product_info.php?&products_id=402

 

Impressive.

 

It still in formative stages to a degree.  Much like Thunderbolt adoption.

 

But here you have AVID pros talking a portable system as powerful as any desktop system?  There you go folks.

 

As for volume.  Needed to get the price down.

 

But they've got a market.  4 million MacBooks with some Minis in there...per quarter.

 

...with TB2?  It's going to make the external GPU a compelling case for a user who likes what the Mini or Macbook has to offer.

 

Portability.  Even the new 'Pro' is tiny.  *looks at the direction Apple is going in.  For the Pro to remain viable as value they're including more cores and x2 gpus.

 

Once you can plug in an external gpu to a Mini or Air they become very compelling and portable (to boot) solutions...in addition to the nice Iris boost.

 

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #168 of 176
Quote:
$1k

 

Greedy b*st*rdness.

 

Early adopter syndrome...

 

But hey, look at Crucial with the landmark 1 TB SSD price.

 

Sooner or later somebody breaks from the 'greedy' pack and offers better value.

 

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #169 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

PCI express?

 

I wonder how many of those gumtree advert Mac Pros have innards packed with 4 HDs...and 2 gpus...etc.

 

What's the figure being bandied about that 80% of Mac Pros don't bother with the empty box other than what they configured?  Makes the 20% that do seem irrelevant.

 

They can scream.  Apple have brought the tablets of stone down from the mountain top.

 

It's faster everything in a smaller box.

 

Empty big box?  Gets taken outside care of TB2.

 

Can't wait for the launch.

 

Lemon Bon Bon.

Yes, but no one seems to want to take about the problems like cost -- at a $1K on top of the Mac Pro (that has GPU power that will never get used).  It appears that those that have to manage the costs of running a business don't count.  Not that I'm in that business, but I know people who have to manage professional recording studios and the cost of the Thunderbolt expansion option is prohibitive to them!  They cost of Avid's latest AAX upgrade is prohibitive!  Moreover, they don't need portable for most cases.

 

Oh and BTW all who says I'm talking about JUST Mac Pros -- or even Macs as far as that goes…  There are lots of options out there.  I simply need to choose the best one.  

 

Oh and YES all of our MAC PRO 1,1s have had their CPU's upgraded, their video upgraded (because we could AFFORD to -- thanks Steve) and have all 4 drive bays filled…

 

Smaller is only better if the bean counters say it is better…  I too can't wait for the release so I can develop my battle plan.

post #170 of 176

I think we're seeing a paradigm shift here.

 

For decades it was, more so in the PC sector still: Buy a box that will last many years and just keep swapping the parts out that need to be upgraded. The MacPro "cheese grater" was a godsend in that regard. Never before was it so easy and affordable to keep a top of the line machine competitive with newer offerings. New GPU, new CPU, more RAM, more storage, you could just swap it out like in a PC. Only the mainboard remains a fixpoint, something that PC users have been swapping out for decades, too.

 

External peripherals on the other hand never lasted very long so far. Mainly because every new generation of PCs came with a new set of interfaces that was faster or totally incompatible with the previous generation. The same was true for the interface cards in the box. They usually died together with the mainboard. ISA to PCI to AGP to PCIe or NuBus to PCI to PCI-X and PCIe in the Macs, your cards never made it over from the last generation of professional workstation.

 

That's a lot of money down the drain every time you upgraded.

 

Now it may be going in the opposite direction: you buy an external box, PCIe expansion bays and storage, for example, put your necessary stuff in there and you can keep it for several generations of MacPros, which you will be swapping more often than the old desktops.

 

Whether that will be a successful shift largely depends on the pricepoint of the new MacPro.

If it's quite a bit cheaper compared to previous offerings, you may end up spending less money over a time of say, 10 years, than you would have before with traditional desktops.

 

We'll see how Apple decides to do it.

I have a feeling they are going to price it too high, much like the Cube, which incidentally, was the prime reason for it's flop. The extravagant design and the fact that it will be US-made may seem to justify the high price in Apple's view, but it's going to put a lot of people off.

On the other hand, if the entry level MacPro was around the 2000$ mark and would have to be replaced every 2-3 years, while keeping the same external peripherals box(es), it could actually be a pretty economical solution for private and corporate customers alike.

Matyoroy!
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Matyoroy!
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post #171 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-News View Post

I think we're seeing a paradigm shift here.

 

 

Whether that will be a successful shift largely depends on the pricepoint of the new MacPro.

If it's quite a bit cheaper compared to previous offerings, you may end up spending less money over a time of say, 10 years, than you would have before with traditional desktops.

 

We'll see how Apple decides to do it.

I have a feeling they are going to price it too high, much like the Cube, which incidentally, was the prime reason for it's flop. The extravagant design and the fact that it will be US-made may seem to justify the high price in Apple's view, but it's going to put a lot of people off.

On the other hand, if the entry level MacPro was around the 2000$ mark and would have to be replaced every 2-3 years, while keeping the same external peripherals box(es), it could actually be a pretty economical solution for private and corporate customers alike.

Personally, I agree whole heartedly thank-you for this point of view…

 

though, I would also add, it also depends on what OPTIONs to the base unit Apple intends to offer.  Will they offer other GPU options as suggested earlier?  What CPU options will it have.  Are there other things they will offer.  Will it have a big enough effect on the cost of Thunderbolt expansion to make it viable.  I DON'T KNOW.

 

I'm not trying to fight a paradigm shift -- I like the design!  I like the small, cool, well thought-out design.  I will also like expanding externally when PERFORMANCE and COST allow it for what we need to do.  Unfortunately, I'm in a position where I've already waited too long and we need a new crop of machines soon.  I'm afraid this is too big of a paradigm shift for the problem I need to solve.  I'm still hoping for the best.

post #172 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-News View Post

I think we're seeing a paradigm shift here.

 

For decades it was, more so in the PC sector still: Buy a box that will last many years and just keep swapping the parts out that need to be upgraded. The MacPro "cheese grater" was a godsend in that regard. Never before was it so easy and affordable to keep a top of the line machine competitive with newer offerings. New GPU, new CPU, more RAM, more storage, you could just swap it out like in a PC. Only the mainboard remains a fixpoint, something that PC users have been swapping out for decades, too.

 

External peripherals on the other hand never lasted very long so far. Mainly because every new generation of PCs came with a new set of interfaces that was faster or totally incompatible with the previous generation. The same was true for the interface cards in the box. They usually died together with the mainboard. ISA to PCI to AGP to PCIe or NuBus to PCI to PCI-X and PCIe in the Macs, your cards never made it over from the last generation of professional workstation.

PCI-X had backward compatibility with PCI. PCI-X was also supported on some of the earlier mac pro chipsets used. Apple didn't implement it. To say this will make technology last forever is nonsensical. You have identical problems. As for PCIe, it has lasted for almost 8 years at this point. Thunderbolt doesn't improve this as there's no guarantee that Apple will not move on again or that smaller vendors will support this hardware indefinitely. Generally the progression of technology is to become more integrated. Expensive proprietary parts are absorbed by the cpu package or chipset if their power requirements drop low enough. Specialized hardware dedicated to acceleration may be displaced by GPGPU functionality. The only times I dislike integration are those times when you're forced to accept significantly lower quality because that is what is bundled. Calling something modular is more just marketing than anything.

post #173 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by mess View Post

Yes, but no one seems to want to take about the problems like cost -- at a $1K on top of the Mac Pro (that has GPU power that will never get used).  It appears that those that have to manage the costs of running a business don't count.  Not that I'm in that business, but I know people who have to manage professional recording studios and the cost of the Thunderbolt expansion option is prohibitive to them!  They cost of Avid's latest AAX upgrade is prohibitive!  Moreover, they don't need portable for most cases.

 

Oh and BTW all who says I'm talking about JUST Mac Pros -- or even Macs as far as that goes…  There are lots of options out there.  I simply need to choose the best one.  

 

Oh and YES all of our MAC PRO 1,1s have had their CPU's upgraded, their video upgraded (because we could AFFORD to -- thanks Steve) and have all 4 drive bays filled…

 

Smaller is only better if the bean counters say it is better…  I too can't wait for the release so I can develop my battle plan.

 

It's a paradigm shift.  

 

And, as always, it's pain.  Pain for upgrading.  Pain for those who can't get their head around it.  It's emotional.  It's new.  It's challenging.

 

It's what Apple's doing.  It makes sense.  It's Apple's way...or the highway.

 

But computing boxes are getting smaller.  Whether that's iPhone, iPad or iMac or Mac Pro...or laptops.

 

They're all smaller.  Thinner.  More powerful than ever before.

 

We don't need honking big boxes anymore.  Dinosaurs are out.  Smart, leaner, fitter and bang for buck mammals are in.

 

As for price.  It's Apple.  We know they drop the DVD player from the iMac and charge Lemon Bon Bon £65 for the privelage of owning an external one.  (Did I whinge about that?  I sure as hell did!!! :P  No really, I DID!  And they upped the price of the iMac's entry price.  AND want to charge you £200 for 128 gigs worth of SSD...don't get me started...)  Nickle and dime upsell.  I'm Apple.  But they're not my best friend or anything.  Especially not since 2008.  *points accusing finger.  Or middle finger...

 

We can only guess the Pro's price on what they've done before.

 

They could make the workstation redefined in terms of accessability.  But, Minis, Laptops, iMacs.  They're all workstations now.  The power paradigm has shifted.  You don't need a 'pro' for Photoshop or video work.  It's all about the amount of computational extra.  And the Pro will have that across the 12 core and dual gpu in spades.  Want storage?  Buy a Pegasus.  Or hook up to Pixar's render farm...

 

I'd love for an entry Mac Pro £1295, £1495, £1795.  Something like that.  A revolution in workstation democracy.  But I suppose it's easier to give 20 billion plus to shareholders...etc. etc.  More like we'll be lucky to see one break £2k.  More like £2045 as they currently are.  Plus a 4k monitor?  £1k.  3k plus?  Way ahead of a top end iMac.

 

I remember when Apple was all about tower democracy.  The old Blue and White G3s with Voodoo cards with terrific prices.  I guess you get the iMac in that range now.  And to be fair.  The iMac is light years ahead of those machines and that Apple.

 

We'll have to wait and see.

 

I'm still lusting over one and a 4k monitor.  And I have a beautiful top end iMac.  

 

The Mac Pro.  Vader Pro Sex.

 

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #174 of 176

I can plug in a couple of SSD external drives or a couple of 2 TB platter drives externally to my iMac should I ever need that storage.  I don't see the problem.

 

The DVD external sits there.  It's not a bundle of wires.  it's just one.  I guess I could plug in a Pegasus box...if I wanted?  Hard drives are getting bigger and faster all the time.  In a few years SSDs...we'll wonder how we ever lived without one...and the speeds will be incredible starting with the Pro...and the airs...  

 

A TB SSD can now be hard for under £500?

 

Pretty incredible compared to last Christmas when it was 500 gig SSDs for around the same price..?

 

I'm amazed that Apple have cubed the Pro.  A Mac Mini Pro.  Or not.  They've just 'square routed' the pro into a smaller footprint.

 

Part of me is wondering why even wait for the Xeons?

 

Why can't they put the i7 from the iMac into a Pro Vader and ship it with two GPUs now.  Sub £2000.  It would walk out the stores.

 

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #175 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

 

A TB SSD can now be hard for under £500?

 

I was unaware of such a thing.

 

 

Quote:

Why can't they put the i7 from the iMac into a Pro Vader and ship it with two GPUs now.  Sub £2000.  It would walk out the stores.

I would see that as slightly more likely if the imac board design would fit. As it is the chipset isn't an enormous expense, and the Xeon 1620 is roughly the same price as that i7 3770. Depending on price targets, the 1620 seems like a logical choice.

post #176 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

A TB SSD can now be hard for under £500?
I was unaware of such a thing.

Me too, so I checked Newegg:
Crucial M500 960GB SATA 2.5" 7mm $599

OWC
960GB
Mercury Electra™ MAX 3G SSD
2.5" Serial-ATA 9.5mm $ 1,049

BestBuy:
OCZ Technology - Talos 2 C 960 GB 2.5" $2,565
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