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New Mac Pro's radical design draws admiration, criticism via Photoshop - Page 3

post #81 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

Thank you so much for your decades of service to Apple.  Where would Apple be without you to defend everything they do?

Sorry, but pointing out that there have been mindless Apple haters for decades isn't 'defending Apple'. It's just pointing out how foolish and juvenile you and the other Apple haters look.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #82 of 109

I find it interesting that no one seems to care if the new Mac Pro is going to be fast.

post #83 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriamjh View Post

I find it interesting that no one seems to care if the new Mac Pro is going to be fast.

It's fast... no doubt.

But I think people are sad that they can't plug in the four SATA drives from their current Mac Pro...

1biggrin.gif
post #84 of 109

You know, satire can bring out the bowels in human nature.  I'm guessing 95% of the human population can't cope with change.  I sneered at the 'trash can' comments.  I have the magic moment of the Mac Pro reveal in my mind.  I think Phil did a terrific job unleashing the preview.  'Can't innovate anymore.  My ass.' ;)  It took my breath away - complete nerd gasm on the look and the spec.


People griping at Apple innovation?

 

Sound familar?

 

Remember the fuss about the iMac bondi?

 

The iPod?  (over priced...will never sell...what's Apple doing?)

 

Apple Computer to Apple Inc.

 

The iPhone (glass screen?  Yes Eric Schmidt Android cheap ass copy stab Apple in the back users...)

 

iPad...(just a big iPod...teh really?)

 

The Blue and White towers...teh Alu Tower...and now...

 

...a true revolution in desktop design...

 

'Darth Pro.'

 

I'm a big iMac fan (though I started my Mac life as a Power Tower Clone user back in '97...)  I love the new iMac.  I think it's a work of art.

 

But even the new preview Mac Pro is simply astonishing.  It's so radical for a 'tower' or Mini Tower (rather) design.  A design masterclass.  A true revolution in cooling...power...per inch...dual gpus with vast Open CL computation...real super hard core, chew yer nuts up 7 teraflops of back breaking computational grunt, super fast SSD PCIe, ten times faster than current HDs, TB2 for x6 ports and daisy chain away...extensibility far in excess of what you could do within a limited enclosure...all...all in the size of 1/8th of the old Pro?  The size of the old Cube?

 

Hopefully they'll offer a 'get on the ladder' model to get people into the stores with the intention of at least walking out with it.  If it was £1295, I'd be carrying one out...and I have an iMac... :P  It's got the design to scale from Prosumer 'Tower' to Professional 'Tower' territory.  It's up to Apple.  They're holding the cards.

 

You know you're onto something when you're the subject of parody and satire.  i.e.  People who change the world and the 95% who follow.  Same old, same old.  It's human nature to want change but be slow to embrace it.

 

Questions arise about price.  But September/October will come soon enough...depends on if Apple gets TB ports and the Intel CPUs...earlier or not...

 

I'll have serious penis envy when the new Mac Pro is released.  I'm honest about it. :P

 

The Darth Pro.  Design Genius.  Apple's most outstanding desktop yet.  Light years ahead of all workstations.  They swung for the fence and knocked it out the city.  Simply stunning.  Astonishing.

 

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #85 of 109

No doubt.

 

Apple's and Steve's legacy?

 

Is in safe hands.

 

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #86 of 109
This one was made with love as I plan to step right up and buy one of these bad boys as soon as they are available. Doesn't mean I don't think it looks like a Minion.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/buckleytypographics/9030479182/
post #87 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitewing98 View Post

Let the haters have their fun. I admit, I find some of the pics cute. But eventually the joke will blow over and we'll be left with another revolutionary computer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

When they can't give credible criticism, people resort to childish name-calling and insults.

Why is the assumption that they're haters? Can't people poke fun at the mighty Apple or does that bother your delicate sensibilities too much?
post #88 of 109

Actually, the Cray was shaped the way it was not for cooling reasons, but for speed reasons.  The round shape allowed the wires that made up the backplane to be shorter, which reduced the propagation time for signals between modules.  This was true for the Cray I and the Cray 2.

--
Dana
CCIE #1937
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--
Dana
CCIE #1937
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post #89 of 109
It just looks like a D-Link Cloud Gigabit Router...

http://www.asuslaptop.co.uk/prodimages/D-Link_DIR-826L_Cloud_Gigabit_Router_N600_DIR-826L_B_1_medium.jpg

And the back of the new Airport is kind of the same.
post #90 of 109

Based on the Mac Pro web page, it looks like there is only a single SSD slot even though the 2 boards appear identical, except for the slot.  Are these pictures simply from an earlier design and the Mac Pro will have 2 SSD slots when it ships?  Given the apparent simplicity of taking off the cover and installing the SSD card, would Apple actually try to take steps to prevent people from easily adding a second SSD?  For example, they might make a Mac Pro "Server" model as the only model that supports 2 internal SSDs.  And when you buy this "Server", you have to buy it with both SSDs already installed from Apple (and with large Apple tax).  Or do you think Apple will make all Mac Pros with 2 SSD slots and have one of them open for future upgrades?

 

I would be impressed if it supported 3 internal SSDs, one on each of the 3 boards.


Edited by Haggar - 6/16/13 at 8:59pm
post #91 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

That said, if you really think you have a "better design", draw it up and submit it. I'd love to see a rendering of your idea. You know, the one that incorporates the same levels of engineering and performance while enabling all those "better options"… 

 

Well to start a cylinder isn't the most practical shape for a workstation (or rack mounting in the server room). So I'd ditch the cylinder and stick with the current mac pro case. As for the "thermal core" its no different then other heat sinks except that its shared by the CPU and 2 GPU's. I would have gone with the Sandia Cooler which is 30 times more efficient. The Sandia cooler merges the heat sink and fan into one unit: http://www.dvice.com/archives/2012/06/sandia_national.php

 

For added efficiency I would use copper versus aluminum in the Sandia cooler for the heat sink/fan as copper is better at dissipating heat.

 

Apple went with flash for storage to save space in the new design and for performance. Had the kept the current rectangular design they could have had even MORE space to add flash storage. They could have also given users the option between choosing optical drives or more flash storage versus just scrapping optical drives.

 

The rectangular design would have also allowed more GPU's versus just 2 (I would go taller for more space). Lights out management and dual redundant power supplies would have been a great addition. Obviously thunderbolt 2 and USB 3 along with other standard ports (audio in/out, dual ethernet etc...)


Edited by z3r0 - 6/17/13 at 6:16am
post #92 of 109
I found other funny images here: https://www.facebook.com/WhatNewMacProShouldBe

1biggrin.gif
post #93 of 109

Lots of people joining all over the place.  Just like with the iPad and the MacBook Air.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #94 of 109

When Phil said it was the very first round computer I immediately thought not true the Cray I as this article point out was round as well and they too make it round for cooling and performance reason. So happen Apple was one of the few company in the world who happen to have their own Cray computer. They used it to do plastic molding modeling as well as heat transfer modeling which was long before most of the PC companies even thought about heat management.

post #95 of 109
In reference to the Cray 1 picture in the article

I would like to suggest Apple or third parties to manufacture an extension chassis for the MacPro, that would sit comfortably underneath and offer loads of space for Raids, PCI cards and lots of stuff that professionals want.

http://www.dna-vaderschapstest.be/images/LabPics/McProWExtensionChassis.jpg
McProWExtensionChassis.jpg
post #96 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanFruniken View Post

In reference to the Cray 1 picture in the article

I would like to suggest Apple or third parties to manufacture an extension chassis for the MacPro, that would sit comfortably underneath and offer loads of space for Raids, PCI cards and lots of stuff that professionals want.

It draws cold air from the base. Having hot components underneath would be detrimental to that.

A few people will be saying how their Mac Pro setup was cleaner than say this:



but even that simple example is not the same setup. The Current Mac Pro can't hold two high-end GPUs and have 4 drives in hardware RAID along with a PCIe SSD boot drive and an AV card and have 3 slots free in the Magma chassis.

The Pegasus RAID box can sit anywhere, the Magma chassis probably won't be needed unless someone really can't find a Thunderbolt replacement for their PCI card. Peripherals like fibre channel adaptors or the Blackmagic adaptors are pretty small and if they aren't used daily, can be unplugged and sit in a drawer.

Maybe 3rd parties will come out with matching peripherals but Thunderbolt peripherals are used by more than just the Mac Pro.
post #97 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


It draws cold air from the base. Having hot components underneath would be detrimental to that.

A few people will be saying how their Mac Pro setup was cleaner than say this:



but even that simple example is not the same setup. The Current Mac Pro can't hold two high-end GPUs and have 4 drives in hardware RAID along with a PCIe SSD boot drive and an AV card and have 3 slots free in the Magma chassis.

The Pegasus RAID box can sit anywhere, the Magma chassis probably won't be needed unless someone really can't find a Thunderbolt replacement for their PCI card. Peripherals like fibre channel adaptors or the Blackmagic adaptors are pretty small and if they aren't used daily, can be unplugged and sit in a drawer.

Maybe 3rd parties will come out with matching peripherals but Thunderbolt peripherals are used by more than just the Mac Pro.

 

Even if the expansion unit sat next to the Mac Pro, it would be fine.  The point was to have a single unit with several drive bays and slots, along with a single power supply and single power cord.  The Mac Pro could be marketed as a 2 piece workstation, a core unit and an I/O unit.

post #98 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

It draws cold air from the base. Having hot components underneath would be detrimental to that.

A few people will be saying how their Mac Pro setup was cleaner than say this:



but even that simple example is not the same setup. The Current Mac Pro can't hold two high-end GPUs and have 4 drives in hardware RAID along with a PCIe SSD boot drive and an AV card and have 3 slots free in the Magma chassis.

Some of that was Apple's choice. The Mac Pro power supply could handle dual super high power GPUs, the OS could handle them too, but Apple didn't include enough power connectors to actually deliver enough current to the cards.

Even in their newest announcement, it seems like they're holding back. To me, it looks like there could be another four RAM slots, and there could have been more slots for the PCIe drives.
post #99 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post


Suppose we call it the tubular architecture.

 

Tubular?

 

That's such an 80s thing.

post #100 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post



but even that simple example is not the same setup. The Current Mac Pro can't hold two high-end GPUs and have 4 drives in hardware RAID along with a PCIe SSD boot drive and an AV card and have 3 slots free in the Magma chassis.

The Pegasus RAID box can sit anywhere, the Magma chassis probably won't be needed unless someone really can't find a Thunderbolt replacement for their PCI card. Peripherals like fibre channel adaptors or the Blackmagic adaptors are pretty small and if they aren't used daily, can be unplugged and sit in a drawer.
 

You're claiming that you can't do things that have been possible for virtually the entire time the mac pro has been on the market. Apple had their own raid card. Unfortunately it was a piece of garbage, (read the reviews, not just the rating) but they had it. I don't trust the Pegasus one. It mentions Raid 5 without ECC ram. Bit flipping is a big deal in something that uses parity, and flaky controllers can crash on a rebuild. You also have the issue that it's using standard firmware. It should have been rated for something like Raid 0,1, and 10 rather than anything that stripes parity. There have also been officially supported 2 gpu configurations from Apple at times. I think they used auxiliary power connectors, as the PCI bus wouldn't be able to take all of that. You also left out that the Magma chassis may not be sufficient to power the number of cards it will fit or that you are dependent upon the cards being stable in such a chassis. Magma doesn't provide drivers. The Magma to me is aligned with a mobile solution, like if you absolutely require certain hardware attached to your notebook. Backporting that at $800 to a desktop solution is really ridiculous, and I don't think Apple is counting on people doing that. In terms of raid on a chip type solutions, Areca has a couple that work with the mac pro. The low rating is mostly due to the 1 star complaint with newegg.

 

Quote:

Maybe 3rd parties will come out with matching peripherals but Thunderbolt peripherals are used by more than just the Mac Pro.

 

I've stated since thunderbolt came out that it would be far more logical to have a fully tested external solution rather than order two things and test them out. It's likely to be more expensive than the older solutions either way, but I tend to prioritize stability. This stuff comes up at times.

post #101 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

You're claiming that you can't do things that have been possible for virtually the entire time the mac pro has been on the market. Apple had their own raid card.

What I was saying is you couldn't have all the things together - dual high-end GPUs, RAID card, PCIe SSD and have 3 slots free on top. You couldn't even use an expander box in that case because you'd have used all the slots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

I don't trust the Pegasus one.

Ok, but how is it worse than Apple's RAID card, which you said yourself had very poor reviews? At the end of the day, hardware is built for a purpose and if it serves that purpose, there is no problem. You can look into the theory of how a $50 Monster HDMI cable should give you better quality than a $5 cable but if the $5 cable does the job, what's the difference?

People are using the Pegasus drives just fine. G-tech has some RAID drives too or you can get USB 3 RAID drives. If you need enterprise quality storage, you can buy some.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

There have also been officially supported 2 gpu configurations from Apple at times.

Not high-end GPUs. 5770s only have a TDP of 108W so you could have two of them but combined that's lower than a single FirePro W9000.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

You also left out that the Magma chassis may not be sufficient to power the number of cards it will fit

250W, which is still better than the Mac Pro because the MP has 300W including the GPU. A 5870 would leave you with just over 100W of power. Now, you get at least 548W for GPUs and 250W for peripherals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

Backporting that at $800 to a desktop solution is really ridiculous

I think the price is high for an enclosure but it may come down, depending on how many people buy it. Apple priced the iPhone pretty high to begin with, as any company would, being cautious about how well it would sell. They have to cover costs. There are cheaper boxes if just a single card is needed.
post #102 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


What I was saying is you couldn't have all the things together - dual high-end GPUs, RAID card, PCIe SSD and have 3 slots free on top. You couldn't even use an expander box in that case because you'd have used all the slots.

I'm still not sure how well that would work. We may see more proof of concept pieces when the machine hits the market as we have with thunderbolt in general.

 

 

 

Quote:
Ok, but how is it worse than Apple's RAID card, which you said yourself had very poor reviews? At the end of the day, hardware is built for a purpose and if it serves that purpose, there is no problem. You can look into the theory of how a $50 Monster HDMI cable should give you better quality than a $5 cable but if the $5 cable does the job, what's the difference?

Huh? I don't follow on that one. The Areca card I linked wasn't terribly expensive. It wasn't a higher end version or anything. My thoughts on the Pegasus are that it relied on showing up early. It's not particularly well suited for Raid 5, but I don't think Raid 5 is really necessary for smaller storage solutions. My point about it was ECC ram and a quality controller are necessary for that, as well as correct drive timings. Otherwise you can run into real problems and have to clone from a backup volume rather than rebuild the raid in the event of drive failure. At that point you may as well use a Raid 0, as its hardware requirements are less stringent. You probably already know this (not being sarcastic, just not 100% sure), but Raid 5 has to read every bit on every drive in the case of disk failure. This means a flipped bit from months back can cause the entire thing to crash on a rebuild, thus the requirements there.

 

Quote:
People are using the Pegasus drives just fine. G-tech has some RAID drives too or you can get USB 3 RAID drives. If you need enterprise quality storage, you can buy some.

I've known a lot of people with G-Raids. In my opinion there are better things for the money. I wasn't really comparing to enterprise storage. That comment was just tangential to Raid 5 support.

 

 

 

Quote:
Not high-end GPUs. 5770s only have a TDP of 108W so you could have two of them but combined that's lower than a single FirePro W9000.

If Apple wanted to go that route in the old case, they would have to use auxiliary connectors. You could probably get a couple 150W cards in there. I know the theoretical limit on the PCI slots is 300W, but I wouldn't cut it that close without a secondary power connector.

 

 

Quote:

I think the price is high for an enclosure but it may come down, depending on how many people buy it. Apple priced the iPhone pretty high to begin with, as any company would, being cautious about how well it would sell. They have to cover costs. There are cheaper boxes if just a single card is needed.

I think part of the problem is that when it comes down to options, that will only make sense in a very limited number of cases. I don't anticipate huge numbers of external gpus to infiltrate the market to the point where they become cheap. In terms of storage, they're likely to use thunderbolt or usb3. If you're going beyond that to something that would have required something like SAS previously, you're looking at a different machine. That is still a sub-market of a sub-market, and I recognize that. I think usb3 will eat a lot of the residual usb/firewire/eSATA markets. eSATA even though it was just external SATA had its own issues. You had to deal with host card drivers. Thunderbolt could accommodate a lot of users populating SAS port multiplier boxes with SATA drives. It wouldn't offer as much bandwidth, but it would cover a lot of them.

 

In case you're wondering, I do plan to migrate storage to thunderbolt at some point. It would be factored into the buying decision on one of these mac pros. I typically consider the cost of everything combined, and it does add up.

post #103 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

The Areca card I linked wasn't terribly expensive.

They also have eSATA RAID enclosures around the same price:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816151095

That should just need a USB 3 to eSATA adaptor like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Support-Multiplier-Patent-Pending/dp/B005DCCMII

There are a few eSATA RAID boxes:
http://www.amazon.com/TowerRAID-eSATA-Performance-TR4MP-Silver/dp/B003X0BJAE

There's a pretty cheap 5-bay here:
http://www.amazon.com/Mobius-trade-5-Bay-FireWire-Enclosure/dp/B00CH94GMK
post #104 of 109

It's a cool looking design, but I do wonder about the practicality.  First, why it draws air (and dust) from the bottom.  Plenty of people put their towers on the ground, but this thing would just get clogged full of dust very quickly. 

 

Seems to me they could have also use a liquid cooling system (you can buy PC cases with liquid cooling), these have existed for a long time, are more effective, and don't suck dust into your computer components. 

 

The new Mac Pro is incredibly cool and unique, but seems pointless.  Apart from graphics designers who need specific proprietary software that requires OSX, most people who need this kind of power will just build a custom workstation - dual Xeons, dual graphics cards, as much RAM and storage as you want, liquid cooling, etc..., and just run Linux...  http://www.creativeplanetnetwork.com/dcp/news/linux-hollywood/44656 

post #105 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

Plenty of people put their towers on the ground...

The size of this thing makes it scream to be put on a desk.
Quote:
Seems to me they could have also use a liquid cooling system...

Have you forgotten the last generation of G5? 100% failure rate.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #106 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


The size of this thing makes it scream to be put on a desk.

 

I agree, I'd definitely put it on a desk.  Looks too cool to hide.  But I can see quite a few people putting it on the ground. 

post #107 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

I agree, I'd definitely put it on a desk.  Looks too cool to hide.  But I can see quite a few people putting it on the ground.

I don't know where I would put it if I were the kind of person to have it under a desk. I guess I would just put it on a shelf, where I already have my current Mac Pro. It puts out so much heat that having it under the desk in the summer meant unwanted heat billowing from under the edge of the desk. I don't really have space for cylinder on the desk.
post #108 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


... I don't really have space for cylinder on the desk.

 

You don't have enough space behind your monitor?

post #109 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Me View Post

You don't have enough space behind your monitor?

If its not a corner station, that pushes the monitor closer to the near edge, and takes space away from the physical desktop.
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